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Making Endgame Grinding Great Again


21 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Making Endgame grinding great again

In the last weeks, i got a lot of input from youtube videos, fellow guildies and friends after returning to BDO from a long break.

Also, here a bit of forum input:

Ive often heard and felt that while catching up to other players, the most efficient spots to grind still were Pirates and Gahaz Bandits, spots that, even as tagged by game designers, are to be grinded by lvl 55-56 characters(Pirates) and lvl 56-57 characters (Bandits). On top of that, when you ask the most high-geared, high-lvl and veteran players, they'll tell you to grind Pirates to 60-61 after reaching level 55, whilst they would rarely suggest harder spots in valencia such as Aakman, Pila Ku, Sulfur Mine, Crescent Shrine, Basilisks, or, to name an extreme example, Centaurs. I understand that some of these Spots (the last three) are designed to provide rare endgame accessories, however the experience earned from killing these Mobs should be worthwhile. On top of that, low level players, especially those who dont have alot of time, tend to get stressed alot by the fact that high level and high geared players are taking their spots at Sausans or Pirates, Karmabombing them in return, which makes everyone furious! Pushing High-Lvl players to go to high-end grinding spots would be a win-win for everyone,since lower level players could enjoy their Pirates and Sausans.

Here are some suggested changes to make Endgame grinding a bit more interesting again:

Any recommendations or general ideas are highly welcome!

The general idea i had was reducing exp gained when killing alot of lower level high density mobs and increasing exp gained for killing higher lvl and tougher mobs.

Greatly increase experience gained in Aakman. Were talking ~70% here, people should have a reason to group and sacrifice money for exp!

Make endgame grinding spots do what they are supposed to do. If Pila is designed to give us a decent bit of money, give the player the opportunity to sacrifice money for exp at sulfur mines! Imo Pila exp should be increased by 25%, Sulfur increased by 50-60%

Centaur,Crescent and Basilisk are great spots to grind the accessories, but theyre mostly used by Bandits(crescent) or players who do not want to get Karmabombed during the weekend (Crescent and Basilisk, maybe... Nobody is using Centaurs for anything other than GQ, lets be honest here, its like cyclops). To fix this, id recommend increasing crescent exp by 20-30% since its fairly popular already, increasing Basilisk exp by 50% and increasing Centaurs exp by 100-120%,maybe even increase density abit. You may say its alot of experience, but centaurs are hard-hitting mobs designed for great players. On top of that, if great players were to grind centaurs, higher mob density wouldnt be a big issue, since the players who would be able to efficiently grind centaurs for exp would have the gear anyway.

All other Valencia spots, except Bandits, should have their exp increased by roughly 20-30%

Now to the last, most important change: Players should be penalized for grinding at lower-level high-density spots! Therefore, players who are:

1 level above the monster they kill should earn 20% less experience from killing the monster

2 levels above the monster they kill should earn 30% less experience from killing the monster

3 levels above the monster they kill should earn 50% less experience from killing the monster

Why increase the experience gained from killing valencia monsters then? Simple, because some of these monsters are low-density hard to kill mobs to grind, but should still be worth grinding (CENTAUURRRSSS).

If you have come this far, i want to thank you for reading through my whole thread! Any recommendations and feedback are highly welcome, please feel free to share with friends and guildies! Together we can make endgame grinding great again!

 @CM_Jouska     @CM_Praballo

Edited by McOink
im a retard and forgot to tag
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Posted

That moment when you read nice suggestions but know that the devs won't give a - - - 

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I love your ideas. I personally like grinding some of the tougher mobs in Valencia (like Centaurs, Pila Ku...). I have poor AP (~165; valk, 58) but by using my abilities properly I can still clear packs of them nicely and survive without spamming pots too hard. It's fun because it's not brain dead grind and it's refreshing to be in Valencia too. The problem is that it's as unrewarding as it gets, exp per hour is not even funny compared to pirates. Money isn't great either but I could accept that if at least exp was decent.

But nah, it's all about aoeing packs of low level mobs as fast as possible.

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Posted

Making Endgame grinding great again

In the last weeks, i got a lot of input from youtube videos, fellow guildies and friends after returning to BDO from a long break.

Also, here a bit of forum input:

Ive often heard and felt that while catching up to other players, the most efficient spots to grind still were Pirates and Gahaz Bandits, spots that, even as tagged by game designers, are to be grinded by lvl 55-56 characters(Pirates) and lvl 56-57 characters (Bandits). On top of that, when you ask the most high-geared, high-lvl and veteran players, they'll tell you to grind Pirates to 60-61 after reaching level 55, whilst they would rarely suggest harder spots in valencia such as Aakman, Pila Ku, Sulfur Mine, Crescent Shrine, Basilisks, or, to name an extreme example, Centaurs. I understand that some of these Spots (the last three) are designed to provide rare endgame accessories, however the experience earned from killing these Mobs should be worthwhile. On top of that, low level players, especially those who dont have alot of time, tend to get stressed alot by the fact that high level and high geared players are taking their spots at Sausans or Pirates, Karmabombing them in return, which makes everyone furious! Pushing High-Lvl players to go to high-end grinding spots would be a win-win for everyone,since lower level players could enjoy their Pirates and Sausans.

Here are some suggested changes to make Endgame grinding a bit more interesting again:

Any recommendations or general ideas are highly welcome!

The general idea i had was reducing exp gained when killing alot of lower level high density mobs and increasing exp gained for killing higher lvl and tougher mobs.

Greatly increase experience gained in Aakman. Were talking ~70% here, people should have a reason to group and sacrifice money for exp!

Make endgame grinding spots do what they are supposed to do. If Pila is designed to give us a decent bit of money, give the player the opportunity to sacrifice money for exp at sulfur mines! Imo Pila exp should be increased by 25%, Sulfur increased by 50-60%

Centaur,Crescent and Basilisk are great spots to grind the accessories, but theyre mostly used by Bandits(crescent) or players who do not want to get Karmabombed during the weekend (Crescent and Basilisk, maybe... Nobody is using Centaurs for anything other than GQ, lets be honest here, its like cyclops). To fix this, id recommend increasing crescent exp by 20-30% since its fairly popular already, increasing Basilisk exp by 50% and increasing Centaurs exp by 100-120%,maybe even increase density abit. You may say its alot of experience, but centaurs are hard-hitting mobs designed for great players. On top of that, if great players were to grind centaurs, higher mob density wouldnt be a big issue, since the players who would be able to efficiently grind centaurs for exp would have the gear anyway.

All other Valencia spots, except Bandits, should have their exp increased by roughly 20-30%

Now to the last, most important change: Players should be penalized for grinding at lower-level high-density spots! Therefore, players who are:

1 level above the monster they kill should earn 20% less experience from killing the monster

2 levels above the monster they kill should earn 30% less experience from killing the monster

3 levels above the monster they kill should earn 50% less experience from killing the monster

Why increase the experience gained from killing valencia monsters then? Simple, because some of these monsters are low-density hard to kill mobs to grind, but should still be worth grinding (CENTAUURRRSSS).

If you have come this far, i want to thank you for reading through my whole thread! Any recommendations and feedback are highly welcome, please feel free to share with friends and guildies! Together we can make endgame grinding great again!

 @CM_Jouska     @CM_Praballo

I'm a big believer in "buffs not nerfs"
While I like most of your ideas I think a lot fo the issue would just be better if they increased droprate of accessorys in valencia.
Anyone over 60 who grinds somewhere is purely for the money. Make money more lucrative in valencia.

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Posted

I like your idea 

i'm a 61 ranger & for me pirates is still the best spot.. 

i grind pila ku & aakman all the time now because i just can't do pirates anymore (did a genocide there) eventho i'm ok with exp gain & money gain its just dumb that grey mobs that die in a breeze are more rewarding then tougher mobs 

 

altho i'm fine with the game right now & wonder if kama is gonna be refreshing in terms of grinding 

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Posted

 

1 level above the monster they kill should earn 20% less experience from killing the monster

2 levels above the monster they kill should earn 30% less experience from killing the monster

3 levels above the monster they kill should earn 50% less experience from killing the monster

 

 @CM_Jouska     @CM_Praballo

While I agree with most of what you said, if they implement such a system, it will still create a bottleneck. Since the majority of players are stuck in the 57-58. Yes it might push out players above lv 60, but I dont see this as a soultion and more like a temporary fix. I honestly think that only REAL solution to pushing high level players out of Pirates / Suasns is simply make similar grinding spots in valenica. The devs approach to valenica grind was built around RNG, and every improvment they make, it invloves even more RNG ( elites + gatekeepers for example). And as we all know, RNG in this game is not something you want to deal with, I would rather go for guarntee 10m per hour, then go farm cres which might end up 30m per hour if you are lucky, and that is what the majority of people favour as well. Valenica needs a total revamp from ground up EXP / SILVER wise. 

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Posted

Centaurs is pretty good money tho. On average at least 10 mil per hour(for me at least), and that's without counting potential belts. They drop insane amounts of Ancient relics, Rocaba helmets and Black Magic Memory Crystals and than 5.5-6 mil worth of trash. Maybe not as profitable as pirates or sausans, but beats majority of Valencia spots. Only spot that comes close in terms of cash(for me) is Pila Ku.

EXP at Centaurs is kinda poor tho for obvious reasons. Also need around 220+ AP and 59+ for awakening unlocks, to kill them fast enough. Likely why it's always empty.

About topic. I dont think punishing players for leveling up is a good idea. Higher levels should willingly choose other spots than sausan or pirates, because better EXP for their level AND comparable silver. We need buffs or more equalized grind spots mainly.

Also remember that many 59+ lacks gear to speed clear places like Pila Ku, Sulfur or join Aakman groups. They have to stay in lower level areas. The difficulty increase is really massive when going from faceroll bandits&pirates to those level 59-60 mobs. Also a pain getting there, making it impossible for players with limited gaming time.

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Posted (edited)

@McOink

There's a similar post in the Suggestion Subforum.

*Click Here*

 

Well, I agree with you with most of the points.

But the exp penalty shouldn't be added, this will kill those players who failed with their gear enchantment!!!

I think it's okay to go the lower-level spot to grind if you failed your enchantment.

After you got your gears back, you can get back and enjoy the high exp mobs in Valencia.

There's shouldn't be any exp penalty in any form in BDO.

Because we've already got a top-rank exp penalty, the BDO exp requirement growing curve.

Daum only need to make ...

"grinding in Valencia is more efficiency than Mediah",

"grinding in Upcoming new area is more efficiency than Valencia "

and so on.

Just keep this point in mind and BDO must become immortal.

i4O0jop.png

Edited by Nieo
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Posted

Thanks for the ton of input in this thread!

I do now want to address some stuff some of you have said about my ideas:

First, lets start with @haybreee : I completely agree with you on the making grinding more lucrative side, great input, we could take the values from http://imgur.com/a/HhOZ8 , as suggested by @AzureWind, thread here : http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/134832-valencia/ . However, Valencia accessories are supposed to be endgame accessories, so i quite liketheir rarity, since endgame gear in a grinding game shouldnt be to easy to get.

Furthermore, lets continue with @DazeR 's input. I do not think that these changes would create a bottleneck, since 57-58 players could just grind Gahaz (remember: Gahaz would remain unchanged, only for those too high-level it wouldnt be worth grinding over Basi/centaur) or Duo/Group at Basilisk/Centaurs, depending on their gear. On top of that, i completely agree with you on the "Valencia was built around RNG" side, so normal drops should be increased on value, and, even if the spots are designed to provide endgame accessories, experience gained should be increased (Take the abandoned monastery as a great example on how to design an endgame accessory grinding spot).

On top of that, lets address @Solsi 's input.The idea behind penalties isnt to punish players for leveling up, but to support lower-level players by making the higher-level players move to another location, so lower-level players can grind spots designed for their level and gear without having to fight higher-level players for it. On top of that, im afraid that a buff high enough to make higher-level players WANT to grind in valencia spots would make it really easy to advance in the game, upsetting the players who invested alot of time into the game already. About the "59's cant clear Pila fast enough" part, thats exactly the idea behind this: Harder spots should be worth grinding, even if youre not clearing them super fast! This will encourage players to grind the spots designed for their level and gear and will encourage Grouping. Thanks alot for your input on how much money you make at Centaurs and what the gear requirements are though!

Finally, i want to write some stuff about @Nieo 's post. The thread you posted there clearly follows the same intent and way of though as this and also brings some nice suggestions to the table. Everyone reading this thread should be sure to check it out, thanks for that! The punishment of players who failed with their gear enchantment is definitely a good point, especially if these players want to progress in the game by only grinding (money needed for gear could also be made from lifeskills, but some people dislike those).You also mentioned the experience leveling curve. However, atleast in my opinion, the leveling curve isnt pushing players towards endgame grinding spots enough. Why? Because it is absolutely independent from the monsters you kill, it just takes raw combat experience. And well, grinding in valencia with an appropriate level would of course be more efficient with this penalty, since lower-level spots wouldnt be worth grinding anymore. The only difference to just buffing valencia experience is that a penalty wouldnt anger the hardcore playerbase of this game, whilst extreme buffs could potentially do that (Think about the ex-calpheon shrine grinders being extremely upset when the softcap was buffed to 55 with mediah release).

Thanks alot for reading!

~McOink

 

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Posted

All good suggestions.

I simply have not played any character past 56 when I get my awakening - because I find it incredibly dull clearing out packs of mobs over and over again for such a low experience gain.

I feel like pre 56 the game spoils you and then you hit this huge grind wall.

 

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Posted (edited)

As a grinding level 56 ninja at 56.7, I find it annoying that every time I go out to pirates I'm in constant contest for spots from higher level players. And specially when these players are a lot higher gear then me, and more experienced with their class so 9/10 I lose the fight. I take it as a learning curve and say what did I do wrong in the PvP fight and so on, but after awhile it comes down to gear and getting caught just one time equals death for me from gear difference.

Enough of being a whining level 56. On the other hand I would like with the Kamaslyvia change that hopefully mobs are worth while for higher levels so people move out of lower level fresh awaken characters. Same with Malgoria... why haven't they released the content for Malgoria? All they have done is given the town is what I heard, and not to mention that's 45 mins a trip just to get there. So not just with Valencia, but with Malgoria and Kama I hope they make good decisions I balancing area's since KR doesn't have the same issues as NA/EU from having the game 1 year less then KR. So the current spots the NA/EU client has for grinding and so forth have to be fixed for our client in some way... Because the spacing of players across the map is terrible. It's like Malgoria and Valencia was released and you overlay a heatmap of playerbase and you have a huge red area over Mediah, Serendia, and Calpehon. And Valencia and Malgoia are blue or green in heat levels of showing how many players are there.

So I hope the issue gets fixed or new content that releases spreads the playerbase out. It's almost like if Vanilla WoW released, then you have BC and WotLK release, and everyone is still leveling/raiding in the Vanilla areas at max level of 70/80. Like it's bad game design that your playerbase doesn't want to go to the new areas designed for their level, it's sad.

 

Sorry in advanced if I misspelled the cities.

Edited by Killa162
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Posted

some good ideas man but the %'s you are throwing out or random and just an estimation is my assumption, without doing the math or number crunching or comparing the percentages you said? to just not create another version of pirates everyone goes to , and this post is literally a Rant from you because your Salty about karma bombers at pirates and it being contested , truth be told mate if you spend abit of time you can find a spot , i never grind anywhere but main spot and back spot , the most contested places, it's not hard ... wonna solo? go jungle on one of 40+ channels ... the one thing i'll say that i dont think you mentioned ( i read it all) they should remove the XP debuff totally with grinding in groups , increase the -----ing XP gain rather, it's an MMO we are meant to -----ing play together right?

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Some input and an idea from a guildie of mine, St_Germain:

He believes its about the money you make in valencia, not really about the combat exp gained. Its quite retarded how a pirates hand-in is worth more than most of the valencian trash loot. Therefore, it needs a buff, but raw value wont get people to explore the desert. So his idea is that players could potentially hand-in their trash drops at the shrines in the desert for highly increased value.

I like this idea, since (most) valencian spots dont yield enough profit to grind as a "preferred grind spot" but just as a "Method to dodge karmabombing".

~McOink

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Posted (edited)

The level above the monster XP reduction is a stupid idea, more so given the fact that  this game doesn't have a hard level cap. They shouldn't be nerfed, just the other areas brought up to par due to their lack of mobs/numbers. Making that you lose so much xp will screw with new people gearing up aswell when they're forced to move to a higher grind spot due to level but are getting smacked upside the head due to being undergeared and given how easy is to level nowadays it would be stupid going on an area for 10 minutes then being forced to move since mobs turned green or something.

 

What devs just need to do is just make valencia more lucrative, that's all, make monsters in valencia give out their own trade items and there, problem solved. Perhaps more xp and make the regions a little bit more full of mobs.

Edited by Musakeris
Double post shenanigans

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Posted (edited)

I am a 60 (almost 61) ranger who grinds valencia 90%+ of my play time. 

I think basis need a huge exp increase plus elite versions. Centaurs just need density increase (double) and elite versions. Bashims just need elite versions. Small exp increase for bandits. Medium exp increase for Cadry. And all valencia mobs need the karma regain HEAVILY increased! None of the valencia mobs give back karma... it takes like 2 hours to go from 0 to max in lowbie areas, 45 minutes at pirates, 1 hour at sausans and like 20+ hours anywhere in valencia... wtf?

Edited by SoSeoNo

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Posted

 

The level above the monster XP reduction is a stupid idea

That's actually a common thing. E.g. in l2 your drops/xp were reduced to almost 0 when you were a few levels above and mobs turned blue.

The problem is that everything is lumped into 2-3 spots, although the world is soooo huge. Whether you make high level spots more attractive, or simply force high level players to those spots by reducing xp/silver to none at lowlevel spots for them... that's a matter of taste.

 

The level above the monster XP reduction is a stupid idea

That's actually a common thing. E.g. in l2 your drops/xp were reduced to almost 0 when you were a few levels above and mobs turned blue.

The problem is that everything is lumped into 2-3 spots, although the world is soooo huge. Whether you make high level spots more attractive, or simply force high level players to those spots by reducing xp/silver to none at lowlevel spots for them... that's a matter of taste.

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Posted

 

That's actually a common thing. E.g. in l2 your drops/xp were reduced to almost 0 when you were a few levels 

That's actually a common thing. E.g. in l2 your drops/xp were reduced to almost 0 when you were a few levels above and mobs turned blue.

The problem is that everything is lumped into 2-3 spots, although the world is soooo huge. Whether you make high level spots more attractive, or simply force high level players to those spots by reducing xp/silver to none at lowlevel spots for them... that's a matter of taste.

i like the Idea.. I love Valencia and would Much rather be out there but if i want Silver for upgrades its 10 times easier to go sausan and take main spot solo.. 99% of the time no One Will push you out and the 1% that do gives me fun pvp ^^ pirates is just meh since i like to go to heidel arena now and then :P

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Posted

Do Dev's even read forums?

Or is this just a place for us to vent and theory craft?

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You are missing a key thing. This game is designed to entertain you just to the point you start spending real money on it. They will never make everu spot in the game worth something, whether its xp or money or whatever, because theres need to be competition on one of them, pirates for example and they need to make you want buy scrolls increasing drop chance for rarer stuff in game. They need to keep us all happy enough to give them money, nothing more, we know it, they know it, they have statistics from the server and changes will be implemented to keep more players and make those players use their wallets. Making all spots in the game worth using removes competition, which they will never make.

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"We've forwarded the general consensus that a portion of players have had an underwhelming sense towards incentive for activities in Valencia. We appreciate the extra effort for additional details on potential suggestions for improvement, and I'll tack these suggestions with a few others along with the next report."

Portion?

The only reason I've heard of players going to the desert is because they know they can "farm" in the desert with less competition from other players.

It always amazes me when GM's / Dev's know so little about the actual gameplay of their games.


 

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