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Pets are overall real cancer, specially T4s.


137 posts in this topic

Posted

Wow... You REALLY don't get it do you?? lol

I used your logic to argue my point.  That's the problem with your logic.  It is fundamentally flawed.

you didn't use my logic at all—you literally just switched a word or two resulting in a sentence that didn't make any sense, because having a lot of cash-shop items that give players an advantage is not something that makes a game not P2W. the fact that you're just switching words doesn't mean you magically use the same logic, because the words (and logic) have to be applicable first.

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Posted

you didn't use my logic at all—you literally just switched a word or two resulting in a sentence that didn't make any sense, because having a lot of cash-shop items that give players an advantage is not something that makes a game not P2W. the fact that you're just switching words doesn't mean you magically use the same logic, because the words (and logic) have to be applicable first.

You're original argument was that BDO is p2w because people often said it wasn't p2w...  That logic is extremely flawed.  You didn't even bring up "advantages" until your last post.  If you're abandoning that (flawed) argument for a new one, fine.  But don't just act like that was your reasoning from the beginning lol

To address this new "advantages" argument of yours:  Sorry, but no.  Pay-to-win is when a cash shop offers items that give players an edge in pvp.  (Items that deal more damage or reduce damage, etc)  Convenience items do not fit this description.  So what if you have more inv slots?  PvP has nothing to do with inventory space.  Not to mention most pearl items can be bought off the marketplace (given a fair amount of luck and LOTS of time)

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Posted (edited)

P2W is kinda fine as long as there's no RNG scam elements attached to it. If u could buy some gear that gives u +300% attack at $100 it's fine, I mean it's capped at 300% right everyone just has to pay $100 to stay equal. As for F2P players, the P2W player is supporting the game so u can play the damn game so don't complain.

As for RNG scam though that is another story, since there's no limit on how much money u actually have to pay in order to get what u want it's basically a blackhole. U could pay like $5000 or even $10000 to this game and still end up with shit gear if RNG screws u up. It is also cancerous that since it's RNG ppl tell u that maybe next time, there's always next time, try again it's RNG all fair and square. Well HELL NO RNG is the ultimate unfairness, it's how gambling works, how the casino tycoons make money off all u poor suckers.

Edited by FapperJack

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Posted

No.

Let's look at Mason v. Machine Zone Inc. (Maryland, USA, 2015, re: California Penal Code). Ars Technica summary here: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/10/judge-losing-in-game-of-wars-virtual-casino-isnt-a-real-world-problem/

 

Pets in BDO wouldn't be considered gambling if we compare the mechanism of Dollars to Daum Cash to Pets to what was argued in the case:

 

1. "Plaintiff argues that there is “no question that [she] suffered an economic injury by wagering in the Casino” because she “lost $100 between early 2014 and January 2015,” typically “$0.60 per spin.” (ECF No. 18 at 18.) But of course Plaintiff was not wagering with dollars; she was playing with virtual gold. Plaintiff acquired that “gold” in the “gold store,” where she exchanged her real-world currency for a nontransferable, revocable license to use virtual currency for entertainment purposes."

 

2.  Plaintiff’s “loss,” if any, was complete: then and there she had swapped something of value (real money) for something of whimsy (pretend “gold”). [...] What she could not do is cash out of the game. [...] Plaintiff’s theory, if taken seriously, would place an eventual factfinder in the unenviable position of pricing the conversion from virtual gold and chips to virtual wood and rock. Such a whimsical undertaking may spark the imaginations of children and ardent game enthusiasts, but it can have no place in federal court.

 

Frustrating as the pet RNG might be, it's neither illegal nor gambling.

 

 

If you actually read the case you cited, the judge dismissed each charge based on technicalities on the weakness of the actual case presented and doesn't represent a good example of case law.  The plaintiff argued that the game was essentially a "slot machine" and the judged dismissed the claim on the lack of evidence supporting the game as such "an appartus" of "fixed and moving parts that worked together to perform some function".  This judge was disinclined to rule on any aspect of economic loss in a so-called virtual world.  The transfer of actual money into a virtual world invokes "real world consideration" (one of the three main components to trigger the definition of "gambling").

It's going to take some time before judges are in a sufficient technical literacy to be able to properly rule in a case like this.  Gambling can most definitely exist in an online "game".  The CSGO case, I mentioned got kicked down from Federal to District Court because it's actually States that govern gambling legality.  So the case you cited, quite possibly wasn't even at the correct jurisdiction.  And such each state can separately rule on its legality and a single judgement won't rule on it.  See recent cases raised by various state Attorney General's related to the legality of daily fantasy sports in separate U.S. states as a precedent.

 

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Posted

RNG is gambling, whether the law perceives it as or not. Everything with RNG element in it is by nature gambling. Soon or later the laws are gonna change that online gambling in any form would be banned. 

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Posted (edited)

 

If you actually read the case you cited, the judge dismissed each charge based on technicalities on the weakness of the actual case presented and doesn't represent a good example of case law.

I've read it. The case is "weak" due to the two points I've highlighted. Both of these apply directly to pets in BDO. The game isn't a slot machine because:

1. You're not putting real money into it

2. You aren't expecting to get real money out of it.

 

 

 

It's going to take some time before judges are in a sufficient technical literacy to be able to properly rule in a case like this.  Gambling can most definitely exist in an online "game".  The CSGO case, I mentioned got kicked down from Federal to District Court because it's actually States that govern gambling legality.  So the case you cited, quite possibly wasn't even at the correct jurisdiction.  And such each state can separately rule on its legality and a single judgement won't rule on it.  See recent cases raised by various state Attorney General's related to the legality of daily fantasy sports in separate U.S. states as a precedent.

No, you don't have a legal basis here at all, because of the two points mentioned above. Sports gambling has real money rewards. BDO does not.

 

Feel free to refute those two points from the case, and we can discuss gambling.

 

Edited by Sibyyl

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Posted

 

I've read it. The case is "weak" due to the two points I've highlighted. Both of these apply directly to pets in BDO. The game isn't a slot machine because:

1. You're not putting real money into it

2. You aren't expecting to get real money out of it.

 

 

 

No, you don't have a legal basis here at all, because of the two points mentioned above. Sports gambling has real money rewards. BDO does not.

 

Feel free to refute those two points from the case, and we can discuss gambling.

 

But RNG is still gambling in NATURE, u can't deny that. Ppl don't really care they getting real money out of BDO, they ain't expecting to get paid by playing BDO to begin with.

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Posted

4 x T4 pets cannot keep up with me or anyone with decent farming speed.

T4 has only 0.5sec looting speed difference from T3 but the main advantage is the looting distance and run speed which can make a big difference in loot per hour. 

I agree getting T4 pets is very difficult and the only thing you can do is to keep throwing money at it.

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Posted (edited)

 

I've read it. The case is "weak" due to the two points I've highlighted. Both of these apply directly to pets in BDO. The game isn't a slot machine because:

1. You're not putting real money into it

2. You aren't expecting to get real money out of it.

 

 

 

No, you don't have a legal basis here at all, because of the two points mentioned above. Sports gambling has real money rewards. BDO does not.

 

Feel free to refute those two points from the case, and we can discuss gambling.

 

"Weak case" is bad case law and not a good example of precedence.  You say you read it, so you should know better.  Citing a poorly structured case is not helpful.

The three elements that define gambling are: consideration, chance and prize.  If it contains all three of these elements then it is gambling.  If it is gambling, then is is bound to adhere to the proper regulations required of gambling and such as applying for and maintaining a gambling/gaming license and excluding minors from their gaming activities.  Not saying gambling is wrong, but it must be properly controlled to prevent abuse.

"Consideration" is what you risk on a "chance" at a "prize".

The vast majority of pets in BDO come directly from real money spent in the pearl shop (even if subsequently "laundered" through the marketplace).  A small amount comes from attendance awards.  Without having at least two of these "pets", you can't participate in the game of "chance" of "pet exchange".   If I have to buy a "ticket" (or pet) to participate in the "game of chance", then this meets the argument for consideration.  Even if you get some "free rolls" (like how Casino's hand out "free play" at their slot machines), overall it costs $ to play, just like how you have to put $ into a slot machine in order to play it (even if the money has been loaded onto a "ticket").  If the vast majority of what was wagered was earned via gameplay (for example BDO "accessories") then this would not apply.  However, BDO pets is another matter.

As for chance, I don't think anyone is arguing with the RNG that permeates BDO.  So let's consider the element of "chance" met, unless you want to argue that Pet Exchange is not based on "chance" but somehow "skill".

An important point is that "prize" isn't legally defined as strictly "real world money" (as you want to state) but as "something of value".

Your argument seems to be that because this a "virtual world prize" is an item that has no value.  And for the most part, that is the central roadblock in classifying aspects of BDO as online gambling.

Can something that exists solely in virtual form have "value"?  Ever heard of bitcoin?  Many people believe bitcoins have value and yet you cannot tangibly possess them (except in commemorative form), just like how you don't actually possess a BDO pet.

Also, though not within the BDO "terms of service", your account *can* be exchanged for real cash (google it if you aren't aware of it).

Under closer inspection, I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as you put forth.  Like I said, however, it's a grey area topic and there's very little overall public/political pressure to crack down on it.  If you could "buy" and "wager" pets in something like Pokemon, then I'm sure it would've gained more traction and awareness, especially since it's heavily marketed towards children.

PS: here is a good short article related to the value and classification of virtual online goods in Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverherzfeld/2012/12/04/what-is-the-legal-status-of-virtual-goods/#3dc2e31b108a

 

Edited by Akunta
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Posted

Not true at all, Dog at T4 is at 2.5, all T4's are at 2.5, and then they pick up a lot faster(they run to the mobs faster) and have a lot longer range than any T1-T3

Just going from the normal T4's to the buffed T4's gave me around 30% more loot, not even joking.

not all are 2.5. Once I get back home need to screenshot my red panda but it is 2.8 i think

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Posted

P2W is kinda fine as long as there's no RNG scam elements attached to it. If u could buy some gear that gives u +300% attack at $100 it's fine, I mean it's capped at 300% right everyone just has to pay $100 to stay equal. As for F2P players, the P2W player is supporting the game so u can play the damn game so don't complain.

For a P2W item to be 'acceptable' there needs to be a way for F2P players to get similar (if not identical) benefits the item gives, but instead of paying real money for it they pay in more time played. Items that give significant advantages and are only obtainable with real money is the definition of toxic p2w that destroys any kind of fair play and drives away the majority of players that consists of f2p players anyway.

The p2w players are a minority (especially the hardcore p2w players) and even though they contribute financially, they do so in an MMO, where the most important factor is for the in game world to feel alive, active and populated to an extent that only the majority of f2p players can contribute to.

So your $100 example, if void of any other in game time related acquisition mechanic, is plain destructive and bad business. It is not by chance that p2w in this game is heavily fragmented giving no destructive advantage through any single item rather than a pretty extensive collection of smaller advantages for a smaller price each. It is a clever design that hides blatant p2w while also making it more expensive for those who can afford it and more accessible to those with smaller wallets or simply less willing to pay a lot more for this game. And with the exception of house ranking, most available real money advantages in BDO are theoretically achievable to a similar degree by a bigger play time investment (similar and theoretical being the key words).

You grossly underestimate the importance of a large player base in an MMO. You are also quite bad mannered for considering f2p players to function just as fodder for p2w players enjoyment because the latter 'support the game'. Both groups support the game and the game would have severe difficulty surviving without either of them.

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Posted

RNG is like 100x more toxic than P2W believe me. A game needs P2W because it's the only way to keep it alive. And there is nothing wrong with it when u know exactly what u receive by paying how much of ur $$$.

What we don't need is Cancer RNG that basically force u to gamble in order to progress. Because u will never know how much is enough to achieve ur goal, thus making ppl pay excessive amount of $$$ by falsely making them believe in "chances". It's the psychology of gambling.

RNG is fine if there is an alternative way but in right now BDO the only way to progress is gambling.

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Posted

RNG is like 100x more toxic than P2W believe me. A game needs P2W because it's the only way to keep it alive. And there is nothing wrong with it when u know exactly what u receive by paying how much of ur $$$.

What we don't need is Cancer RNG that basically force u to gamble in order to progress. Because u will never know how much is enough to achieve ur goal, thus making ppl pay excessive amount of $$$ by falsely making them believe in "chances". It's the psychology of gambling.

RNG is fine if there is an alternative way but in right now BDO the only way to progress is gambling.

I understand what you are saying. Your $100 for 300% p2w damage example where f2p players should not complain because they don't support the game was not demonstrating this though. It certainly sounded more like "if I pay money then I have the right to fk u all up unless u pay too". Which is wrong.

I do agree though that RNG related to paid items, as in horse skills and pets especially, is at least controversial from a buyers stand point. Legally they surpass any law that would require certification of the RNG used (which could very well be tampered). They do this by using the intermediate 'pearls' currency. A common practice not only in the gaming industry.   

P2W alone is not enough to keep the game alive and healthy, not by a long shot. Again you underestimate the contribution of f2p players by simply playing the game and growing its population and popularity. Both f2p and p2w are necessary. F2p is the basis that allows the company to make profits with p2w when it comes to MMOs. 

In any case I agree on the bought RNG items and how poorly if not shady they are implemented. I do however strongly disagree with the example you used. In any case, you read mine, I read yours, bob's you uncle, nothing more we can do about it. :)

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Posted

Yeah dude I'm not a big fan of P2W I'm not really interested in defending it. So I'm not gonna argue with u bout that, it ain't my interest. All I want to say is I don't mind paying $$$ to support this game as long as I know I get guaranteed stuff from my $$$ not some RNG chance BS. 

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Posted

I don't mind the normal system that you've gotta put just a tiny bit of money into the game to get pets that loots for you, it's convenient. But @#&*! are T4s pet impossible to get, they're a huge money sink. Not only are they REAL useful, they are REALLY expensive. 

I've fused 2x T3s together and have gotten 1x T3 every single time. That is 25$ each try that goes directly to the trash.  I've done it 3 times and still didn't get a single T4. I've had my dose, this is retarded. I don't mind putting a couple dollar in the game, hell, I wouldn't mind putting 40-80$ a month if that's the only thing I play, but this right here is ridiculous. This is not Black Gamble Online, it's an MMORPG.

Where did you ever get the idea this isnt black gambling online? Everything about this game is to get people who have very low will power, to buy a bunch of garbage in the hope of getting stuff like that. As for mmorpg, they have been targeting weak minded gamblers for a long long time, at least like 8 years. The first main stream one I remember is SWTOR, with their gambling boxed, but they all do it now, minus a few. Like wow, final fantasy 15, eve online, but the rest are all about getting gamblers to waste money. 

The first one I remember playing that did this to the max though was Uncharted Waters Online. They didn't play around with almost useless EXP bonus, and something that picks up loot, they went full blow you pay them money you get a better ship that no one who didnt play for the last 5 years, or dump 10 grand in can obtain, the crafting is RNG, just like this. I am 100 percent sure that is where they got the idea from. Instead of pets its boats, and its called fusion. You take 2 boats and try to make a tier higher boat. 

It is 100 percent certain, when this game starts losing money, they will add this in, where if you dump 10 grand into the cash shop, you will have better gear. In uncharted waters online there are people who dump 10+ grand into the cash shop. They still got a few more years though to milk the people who dont pay very much. Then it will be the people who dont mind getting wooped on by the people who dump 10 grand into the cash, and the ones who will never leave cause they dumped 10 grand into the cash shop. 

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Posted

Since we don't have personal trade in this game the RNG gambling is more cancerous than EVER.

In other P2W casino games the least u could do was, buy already enchanted gear so that u can avoid going through that RNG enchanting process urself. But in BDO since u cannot trade all u can do is put a preorder on whatever u want and prey to RNGesus that some1 puts it on market and u win the lottery. Which ofcourse takes luck and patience where ppl will get fed up so they are somewhat forced to do cancer RNG enchanting themselves.

In summury BDO has the most cancerous RNG system in MMO history. In ANY previous MMOs u could find a way to avoid RNG, but BDO is the ONLY game that u cannot avoid this death god named RNG.

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Posted

Since we don't have personal trade in this game the RNG gambling is more cancerous than EVER.

In other P2W casino games the least u could do was, buy already enchanted gear so that u can avoid going through that RNG enchanting process urself. But in BDO since u cannot trade all u can do is put a preorder on whatever u want and prey to RNGesus that some1 puts it on market and u win the lottery. Which ofcourse takes luck and patience where ppl will get fed up so they are somewhat forced to do cancer RNG enchanting themselves.

In summury BDO has the most cancerous RNG system in MMO history. In ANY previous MMOs u could find a way to avoid RNG, but BDO is the ONLY game that u cannot avoid this death god named RNG.

Indeed there is only one way to play this game, and that is to ignore to the best of your abilities, people who waste money in the cash shop, people who call every one losers because they didnt win the rng and suck at pvp, in fact it is best to just play this game single player haha, since once you start trying to compare to other people, it will ruin the whole game. 

It would be like getting into a fps battle with some one who had a 5 ghz 7700k and 2 1080 tis, and you only have a amd 8350 and a 750 ti. So any one with a 8350 and a 750ti would be happy till they start comparing to a 1080ti haha. 

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Posted (edited)

But RNG is still gambling in NATURE, u can't deny that. Ppl don't really care they getting real money out of BDO, they ain't expecting to get paid by playing BDO to begin with.

I understand you're frustrated with pet RNG. I consider pet RNG to be the worst mechanism in the game (with horse skill RNG closely following). However, RNG in BDO does not meet any legal definition of gambling, which requires cash to potentially come out from the activity.

 

"Weak case" is bad case law and not a good example of precedence.  You say you read it, so you should know better.  Citing a poorly structured case is not helpful.

I am citing the only case in recent history relevant to pet RNG in BDO. If you have other cases, then link them.. but without any precedence all we have is your idle conjecture. And link all the Forbes articles you want. Forbes doesn't interpret law, they only render an opinion on the law, which is about as valuable as your personal conjecture. Additionally, the Forbes article concludes, as I've already said: courts are not likely to engage in an exercise to guess what the real value of a virtual good is.

 

The three elements that define gambling are: consideration, chance and prize.

Did you see where I specifically called out the lack of a "prize"? Without all three elements present, there is no gambling occurring in BDO from any legal POV. Real money is not spent on pets. Conversion of money to Daum Cash doesn't meet any definition of "laundering" no matter how you twist it.

 

Virtual prizes don't have any value - virtual goods in BDO cannot be exchanged for cash, without engaging in an illegal transaction. Bitcoin has a value that can be exchanged for cash as a legal transaction. Comparing virtual goods to bitcoins in BDO is comparing apples and oranges. One doesn't have a legal exchange rate, the other does.

 

You seem to be mixing up a lot of concepts, and it seems like to me you are trying to play lawyer here without understanding the mechanisms or statutes.

 

Is pet RNG in BDO "gambling" from a philosophical point of view? Sure. We all assign some emotional value to our virtual outcomes.


Is pet RNG in BDO "gambling" from a legal point of view? No.

 

Edited by Sibyyl

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Posted

You're original argument was that BDO is p2w because people often said it wasn't p2w...  That logic is extremely flawed.

no, that certainly was not my original argument. like I said from my very first response—you totally missed the underlying logic behind what I was saying. why did I make this claim? because it was very clear that you missed the underlying logic behind what i was saying. i will be very explicit:

 

man, i wonder how many times people have to say "it's not p2w."

i hear it for each of the vast amount of items, boosts, benefits, and safeties that people are able to buy with cash. you can only say "it's not p2w!!!" so many times before the very fact that you have to say it for so many things shows that it is, in fact, p2w


this is exactly how the original post is formatted. notice how the words "so many things" are italicized. notice how i speak about the vast amounts of items, boosts, benefits, and safeties that people are able to buy with cash, emphasizing that the crux of the point is the fact that you have to say it for so many things. my whole point revolved around people having so many items to try to defend. the very fact that there exists such a huge multitude of advantageous cash-shop items means, more and more, that whenever someone says "that item isn't p2w, it's just 'pay for convenience' lololol"—that person isn't defending anything, they're just shining a red light on yet another advantageous cash-shop item

the fact that people are constantly saying "it isn't p2w" by itself isn't what makes the game p2w. it's the fact that people are constantly saying it paired with the fact that, every time they say it, it's in reference to another advantageous cash-shop item. that is the underlying logic in my point

the "it's not p2w!" crowd is playing silly word games at this point. there are so many ways to get an advantage by throwing cash at the game, but they keep contorting the idea to squirm out of admitting that the shop is p2w. p2w is very simple: two players play the game the same way, for the same amount of time—if one player can throw money at the game and gain an advantage over the first because of it, then it's p2w.

sure, you might like the p2w aspects. sure, you might think there's nothing wrong with the p2w aspects. but playing this silly relativistic game of "but everyone's definition of winning is different and therefore nothing is ever truly p2w!!!!" or other nonsense is just... well... silly

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Posted

The game is p2w, that fact is clear as water like 1+1=2, I don't get all these ppl defending the game saying it's not, low IQ?

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The game is p2w, that fact is clear as water like 1+1=2, I don't get all these ppl defending the game saying it's not, low IQ?

It's P2W + RNG dude, 1+1 doesn't always equal a 2 in this cancer RNG system. In fact the odds are that most likely u end up with 1+1=0.

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The game is p2w, that fact is clear as water like 1+1=2, I don't get all these ppl defending the game saying it's not, low IQ?

Or you are short sighted.
What am I paying to win? What am I winning in BDO by throwing money at the game? Let's run an optimal pay to win scenario. They sell me all Pen gear, sell me 2000% exper buffs and I am level 70 in a month. Then what? I spent $5K US to go look at new games on Steam because I "won" BDO?

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Posted (edited)

Or you are short sighted.What am I paying to win? What am I winning in BDO by throwing money at the game? Let's run an optimal pay to win scenario. They sell me all Pen gear, sell me 2000% exper buffs and I am level 70 in a month. Then what? I spent $5K US to go look at new games on Steam because I "won" BDO?

you can't be serious.

that's like someone telling you "hey, you're supposed to park your car in the driveway" and you say "driveway!? what driveway? where am i supposed to drive??? how can you tell me i'm supposed to park there when it's called a driveway?????"

the phrase "pay to win" does not imply there is an explicit, singular win-condition that ends the game, and you know it—stop playing these asinine word games

Edited by AmagicalFishy

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Posted

Or you are short sighted.What am I paying to win? What am I winning in BDO by throwing money at the game? Let's run an optimal pay to win scenario. They sell me all Pen gear, sell me 2000% exper buffs and I am level 70 in a month. Then what? I spent $5K US to go look at new games on Steam because I "won" BDO?

If u could buy a PEN with $5k so be it. The real cancer is that in this game the only way to get a PEN is through CANCER RNG. That means ppl are forced to keep throwing money at it until they get one that may cost them $50k and still not even guarantee u a PEN. And some ppl are so addicted to gambling they can't stop themselves from keep throwing and throwing money at this game it's nothing but an online casino. Add the fact that since we don't have "personal trade" in this game and even the market is cancer RNG, everybody is forced to keep gambling and gambling until they go total broke. Truly EVIL GENIUS game design I must say.

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Posted

you can't be serious.

that's like someone telling you "hey, you're supposed to park your car in the driveway" and you say "driveway!? what driveway? where am i supposed to drive??? how can you tell me i'm supposed to park there when it's called a driveway?????"

the phrase "pay to win" does not imply there is an explicit, singular win-condition that ends the game, and you know it—stop playing these asinine word games

I know what you are saying. True Pay to Win means you buy your progress and you have no choice. That, in BDO would be flat out bullshit. Feel free to insert an aspect of the game that requires cash shop in among your rants.

I'm not arguing with you Jack because I see the RnG as a bad feature. It's toxic and a recipe for burnout. Because there is no alternative, it just forces spam. Do it again, do it again, do it until it poops out a success.
The reason I burned out on FF14 was the crafting became 'how many times can I spam hasty touch and get an RnG HQ result'? The reason I avoided Tera like a plague was the RnG enhancement. Even though I bought it and ran around trolling people with an Elin, I never got a char to 50 and never got good gear. The reason I will walk away from BDO is, I will get bored with spinning my wheels on Pri gear because I just can't get the stuff to upgrade above it.

To be fair to BDO, the 'community standard' on gear is over kill. Full Pri will get you to 60. It will just take a little longer and you might need to group up. The real problem is, aside from gear they have no objectives. Be the first guy with a trillion silver? Did that in EVE. It was boring AF.

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