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107 posts in this topic

Posted

Nouver or Kutum?

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Posted

WoW first mmo.

No seriously, this is literally THE everlasting question per se.

Both are good in their own way, no one is really better than the other in all points, it's just preference and what fits best with your build.

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Posted

ILL JUST GO NOUVER BECAUSE I AM A GOD !!! heheXd

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Posted

Go kutum, better stats and worth the app loss. Or get both and decide which you like best

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Posted

problem with kutum is if you are looking at the worth of the defensive stats, assuming the ''datamined'' data is accurate , its half and half in dr/eva

and personally atleast im a firm believer in what your GS is put into counts more than the #. so kutums prime worth would be in assuming it does have passive pve damage, situations where you want to do as much damage in pve but also be as tanky as possible in pve. as far as pvp goes there just seems to be better alternatives.

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Posted

Which are better in pvp? nouver is only like 10 more ap. As a warrior, I will take 20mix dp, 10% ignore resist and a bit of accuracy over 10ap especially for pvp.

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Posted

Which are better in pvp? nouver is only like 10 more ap. As a warrior, I will take 20mix dp, 10% ignore resist and a bit of accuracy over 10ap especially for pvp.

16ap @ tet

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Posted

Which are better in pvp? nouver is only like 10 more ap. As a warrior, I will take 20mix dp, 10% ignore resist and a bit of accuracy over 10ap especially for pvp.

its like 13 ap diff, and 13 ap is worth more than 20 dp thats half and half, the accuracy is so little its hardly worth mentioning, and while the ignore resis is nice. its not game breaking sadly. if you need accuracy, vangertz would be better than kutum anyways, if you need to tank, kite or vangertz would be better than kutum depending on what your building. and if you wanting to do damage, nouver will be significantly better.

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Posted

I can't think of any situation in which I'd prefer Nouver over Kutum. Wait, maybe for Sausan's or Pirate grind actually

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Posted

I can't think of any situation in which I'd prefer Nouver over Kutum. Wait, maybe for Sausan's or Pirate grind actually

i mean its personal preference,

personally i view the mixed dr/eva being a deal breaker to me, because at that points its 13 ap loss for like 10 meaningful dp to me, and thats just not a trade thats worth it.

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Posted (edited)

i mean its personal preference,

personally i view the mixed dr/eva being a deal breaker to me, because at that points its 13 ap loss for like 10 meaningful dp to me, and thats just not a trade thats worth it.

I try to find a balance between total DP (evasion included but not stacked exclusively) and AP. I tried an evasion build for warriors and it wasn't for me. I don't feel like we have the class skills to make proper use of it. For total DP the sweet spot for me right now seems to be 310DP or so (my build isn't quite there yet http://bdoplanner.com/s/h9pqHTg8 - I dropped my tri red coral rings for more ap)..  it makes you really tanky when the enemy is either not geared or they have opted to cut their AP for other stats (like evasion or accuracy).

It is so much more difficult to get there DP-wise with nouver while using the other options you mentioned leave me lacking for AP.

 

 

Edited by meaghs

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Posted

i mean its personal preference,

personally i view the mixed dr/eva being a deal breaker to me, because at that points its 13 ap loss for like 10 meaningful dp to me, and thats just not a trade thats worth it.

When you get to 200+ AP, the extra DP is much more important than MOAR AP

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Posted

hidden stats, bad translations and thats what hapens! bullshit... we dont even know for sure stats system in this game. atm i have kutum cause i thought it give more stats like dp and acc vs  ap, but who knows wth hidden stuff these items have and all is messed up to the point nobody understands anything anymore.

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Posted (edited)

When you get to 200+ AP, the extra DP is much more important than MOAR AP

You guys aren't listening to what he's saying.

Essentially evasion without actually stacking evasion often comes out useless against people with proper accuracy for PVP, so with Kutum's half and half DR/Evasion, you can't just look at it as "20dp" - it's 10DR and 10 evasion. If you want to stack evasion you go with Vangertz and get more than double the evasion provided by Kutum, if you want to stack DR you go with Kite and get more than double the DR provided by Kutum. If we only count the DR from Kutum because we aren't stacking evasion, then most people would take 13AP over 10DP given a choice - let's say on your earring would you rather have a TRI tungrade or a DUO manos? 

Like Burhead said - the main draw of Kutum is unproven possibility of hidden stats. If it does have some nice chunk of accuracy or hidden damage then it could be bringing more to the table than what meets the eye. 

Edited by Kutsuu

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Posted

You guys aren't listening to what he's saying.

Essentially evasion without actually stacking evasion often comes out useless against people with proper accuracy for PVP, so with Kutum's half and half DR/Evasion, you can't just look at it as "20dp" - it's 10DR and 10 evasion. If you want to stack evasion you go with Vangertz and get more than double the evasion provided by Kutum, if you want to stack DR you go with Kite and get more than double the DR provided by Kutum. If we only count the DR from Kutum because we aren't stacking evasion, then most people would take 13AP over 10DP given a choice - let's say on your earring would you rather have a TRI tungrade or a DUO manos? 

Like Burhead said - the main draw of Kutum is unproven possibility of hidden stats. If it does have some nice chunk of accuracy or hidden damage then it could be bringing more to the table than what meets the eye. 

I see Nouver as a PvE offhand, and even then Kutum performs better against higher level mobs, so as I stated, the only situation I'd take Nouver over Kutum is when grinding mobs the likes of Sausans or Pirates

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Posted

In the KR version, the players doing Kamasylve have found that Kutum applies damage to those mobs better that Nouver for whatever reason, so Kutum I guess. Personally I think they are about equal really.

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Posted (edited)

You guys aren't listening to what he's saying.

Essentially evasion without actually stacking evasion often comes out useless against people with proper accuracy for PVP, so with Kutum's half and half DR/Evasion, you can't just look at it as "20dp" - it's 10DR and 10 evasion....

First, I do not think it is as clearly cut as you make it out to be. Several class skills treat DP as a whole and do not differentiate between DR and Evasion. As an example, Merciless gives us +20 DP while Armor Break takes 30 DP from the target. The whole DP is used in at least part of the combat calculations. I think that maybe the calculations are done in several steps. Did the target hit (Evasion)? Did the attack power defeat the armor power (DP)? How much is the damage received (DR)? So you should look at it as 20DP and as 10 DR and 10 Evasion. Not just 10 DR and 10 Evasion.

Second, it should be noted that stacking evasion exclusively on your warrior will not benefit you as much as it benefits other classes because we do not have the supporting class skills to put it to use. We do not have the ninja's smoke screen or the rangers guardian that is going to give us a 20% boost on evasion. So while it may be useful against players who do not have the accuracy to deal with you, you will hurt when you run into players who have equipped accuracy in order to counter evasion builds. - M.

Edited by meaghs

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Posted (edited)

First, I do not think it is as clearly cut as you make it out to be. Several class skills treat DP as a whole and do not differentiate between DR and Evasion. As an example, Merciless gives us +20 DP while Armor Break takes 30 DP from the target. The whole DP is used in at least part of the combat calculations. I think that maybe the calculations are done in several steps. Did the target hit (Evasion)? Did the attack power defeat the armor power (DP)? How much is the damage received (DR)? So you should look at it as 20DP and as 10 DR and 10 Evasion. Not just 10 DR and 10 Evasion.

Second, it should be noted that stacking evasion exclusively on your warrior will not benefit you as much as it benefits other classes because we do not have the supporting class skills to put it to use. We do not have the ninja's smoke screen or the rangers guardian that is going to give us a 20% boost on evasion. So while it may be useful against players who do not have the accuracy to deal with you, you will hurt when you run into players who have equipped accuracy in order to counter evasion builds. - M.

I was following you when you said "Did the target hit (Evasion)?" and "How much is the damage received (DR)?" but could you explain what the heck this is? "Did the attack power defeat the armor power (DP)?" - I've never heard of this calculation. Afaik character sheet DP is just a composite of your evasion and DR.

It's highly likely that the skills you are referring to are buffs/debuffs to DR since evasion is referenced specifically when they mean evasion. 

I don't know why you're arguing at me about whether evasion is useful. I didn't say anything about it one way or another other than to say that having 10 evasion when you aren't stacking evasion is often useless because people stack enough accuracy to hit people with more evasion. The point of me saying that is that you are only benefiting from the DR in most cases. 

Edited by Kutsuu

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Posted (edited)

I was following you when you said "Did the target hit (Evasion)?" and "How much is the damage received (DR)?" but could you explain what the heck this is? "Did the attack power defeat the armor power (DP)?" - I've never heard of this calculation. Afaik character sheet DP is just a composite of your evasion and DR.

We do not know the calculation for damage. We do know that it is not potential damage - damage reduction. Because we know what it is not, I am making a reasonable assumption that total DP is used as a variable in the combat mechanics - especially since DP is referenced as a single quantity in game.

I agree with you that DP can be split between DR and evasion, the values were data-mined, but I do not agree that having the 10 evasion is useless, as it is counted in your total DP and I believe your total DP is used. You wouldn't say 'the evasion from muskan's is useless unless your stacking evasion'. What makes the 10DP from kutum less valuable to you?

Edited by meaghs

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Posted

We do not know the calculation for damage. We do know that it is not potential damage - damage reduction. Because we know what it is not, I am making a reasonable assumption that total DP is used as a variable in the combat mechanics - especially since DP is referenced as a single quantity in game.

I agree with you that DP can be split between DR and evasion but I do not agree that having the 10 evasion is useless, as it is counted in your total DP and I believe your total DP is used. You wouldn't say 'the evasion from muskan's is useless unless your stacking evasion'. What makes the 10DP from kutum less valuable to you?

Old items had specifically DR/evasion mentioned... In datamining you can also see those two separated... They merged it for the same reason they hid acc... To screw us and gice us more things to think about...

10 evasion is indeed useless, if it is the only evasion you have, since just mainhand weapon has around 60 accuracy, which engates around 80 evasion... So 10 alone will be just nullified and became dead stat... So if you want your evasion to be sueful, you have to go over 4/3 of opponents accuracy... Thats the moment it has effect... The more acc he has, the more evasion you need for it to do sth... What you believe is nice, but your religion has nothing to do with math...

But dont worry... If you go full evasion build you can easily go over 200 evasion, while accuracy stackers wills truggle to go over 100 acc... Hence you will still dodge some hits even with accuracy modifiers on most abilities...

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Posted (edited)

Well you do get 121 evasion in total from a full set of TRI boss armor, assuming datamined stats are legit. It does seem pretty legit that you get somewhere around 55-60 accuracy from a TRI Kzarka, based on a test I was looking at earlier that shows Kzarka has ~50 more accuracy than a base (+0) Yuria. I'm of the impression that even Wiz/Witch have something to gain from low opportunity cost accuracy (Bheg's, red coral earrings) due to the huge base evasion from boss armor. 

edit: Source - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HE1Lr-7C2ChlCOsBc14z_hY5dkh9tC6tYZFqHgNGIbA/htmlview#

With this in mind, maybe 20 evasion from Kutum and 2x Helm gems could be beneficial even against players with a lot of accuracy gear. 

 

Edited by Kutsuu

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Posted

When you get to 200+ AP, the extra DP is much more important than MOAR AP

stacking some eva , especially on warrior is garbage, you need a literal ----- ton , for it to matter against anybody who really means anything.

whats 20 extra evasion going to mean against somebody who's still going to have a 90-100% hit rate on you with or without that extra evasion, its going to mean nothing,

where as 20 extra DR is ALWAYS going to work.

so if your going for a hybrid build , DR is factually going to be better. also going to be cheaper (look at cost of cadry rings then look at centaur belts) 

and this is just my personal opinion but DR also seems to just typically work better on warriors, we have a DR passive, we have no eva passive, we also dont seem to have many/any strong eva add ons. we also have the option of a DR offhand which makes going DR just better on warriors than classes who dont have a DR offhand.

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Posted

stacking some eva , especially on warrior is garbage, you need a literal ----- ton , for it to matter against anybody who really means anything.

whats 20 extra evasion going to mean against somebody who's still going to have a 90-100% hit rate on you with or without that extra evasion, its going to mean nothing,

where as 20 extra DR is ALWAYS going to work.

so if your going for a hybrid build , DR is factually going to be better. also going to be cheaper (look at cost of cadry rings then look at centaur belts) 

and this is just my personal opinion but DR also seems to just typically work better on warriors, we have a DR passive, we have no eva passive, we also dont seem to have many/any strong eva add ons. we also have the option of a DR offhand which makes going DR just better on warriors than classes who dont have a DR offhand.

I agree with you regarding DR vs evasion for warrior, but I don't agree that you should just tunnel vision and either go full AP or full DR. Kutum is my go to shield in both PvE and PvP, and I only whip out my Kite in PvP if I need to tank hard. As I said earlier, I would never consider using Nouver in PvP, I can already one combo most players with Kutum and that's why that extra survivability is more important to me

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Posted

I agree with you regarding DR vs evasion for warrior, but I don't agree that you should just tunnel vision and either go full AP or full DR. Kutum is my go to shield in both PvE and PvP, and I only whip out my Kite in PvP if I need to tank hard. As I said earlier, I would never consider using Nouver in PvP, I can already one combo most players with Kutum and that's why that extra survivability is more important to me

im not saying one should tunnel vision.

if you read entirely what i said i said that if you were going to go with eva you would need to go full eva to even feel the difference. while for DR you can realistically stack any amount and it'll always work

reason being if somebody has enough accuracy to counter the amount of evasion you stack, then that evasion means nothing. so if you dont stack enough to counter alot of accuracy, people with even a small amount will just ignore that small amount of evasion you built.

and i said my personal opinion on kutum, i did not say anybody who goes it is stupid, or that its a garbage shield. i just said that because of the it being half and half, and only building some evasion isnt THAT great, i prefer to use nouver or kite. and that again, in my opinion, the best shields for pvp were nouver kite or vangertz depending on what you needed.

the biggest reason to go nouver , atleast for me, is to 1 combo people who are a lil tankier than most, or to kill people in fewer skills so i can move to the next person with skills i wasnt forced to use on somebody else.

i mean if you can 1 combo people with a kutum then all you'd need to do is build a bit better accessories then you'd probably be able to 1 combo most of the same people with a kite. then at that point the only reason to use a kutum would be the same reason to previously use a nouver.

point is myself and what kutsuu was referencing is its not purely about the # of dp you get, its about what that dp is. and while yes you dont ''need'' over 200 ap, it helps depending on the situation. i.e. if your fighting a wizard if you give them even half a second of breathing room they'll blink away and start healing, not allowing them to have that half second by killing them in 2 skills rather than 3 or 4 is the difference between ending the fight in one combo , or needing to chase them down pour on more pressure and ending it in 2 or 3.

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Posted

im not saying one should tunnel vision.

if you read entirely what i said i said that if you were going to go with eva you would need to go full eva to even feel the difference. while for DR you can realistically stack any amount and it'll always work

reason being if somebody has enough accuracy to counter the amount of evasion you stack, then that evasion means nothing. so if you dont stack enough to counter alot of accuracy, people with even a small amount will just ignore that small amount of evasion you built.

and i said my personal opinion on kutum, i did not say anybody who goes it is stupid, or that its a garbage shield. i just said that because of the it being half and half, and only building some evasion isnt THAT great, i prefer to use nouver or kite. and that again, in my opinion, the best shields for pvp were nouver kite or vangertz depending on what you needed.

the biggest reason to go nouver , atleast for me, is to 1 combo people who are a lil tankier than most, or to kill people in fewer skills so i can move to the next person with skills i wasnt forced to use on somebody else.

i mean if you can 1 combo people with a kutum then all you'd need to do is build a bit better accessories then you'd probably be able to 1 combo most of the same people with a kite. then at that point the only reason to use a kutum would be the same reason to previously use a nouver.

point is myself and what kutsuu was referencing is its not purely about the # of dp you get, its about what that dp is. and while yes you dont ''need'' over 200 ap, it helps depending on the situation. i.e. if your fighting a wizard if you give them even half a second of breathing room they'll blink away and start healing, not allowing them to have that half second by killing them in 2 skills rather than 3 or 4 is the difference between ending the fight in one combo , or needing to chase them down pour on more pressure and ending it in 2 or 3.

1. Kutum has both DR and evasion so most of your points about its DP are moot

2. I'm purely talking about node wars and sieges, where it's objectively bad to use Nouver unless you play in NA where everyone has 280 DP max

3. Kutum outperforms Nouver against high level mobs in PvE

And I'm done discussing with you, I understand why Chors gave up on you a long time ago

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