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How To Balance

46 posts in this topic

Posted

So as we all know. 

Top tier classes are running this game right now.

For warrior and wiz/witch i have a solution! other classes idk D=

But hear me out.

As a wizard/witch they are fine as a glass cannon. Their damage is their and their utility is terrific! Leave it what it is.

I think the way to "Balance" these classes is to take Super Armor away from them.

In any game or anything involving spell casters it is common sense that their most vulnerable spot is when they are casting.

Tut that is not the case here! 

They have very short windows to gain leverage while pvping

Due to when they summon certain spells super armor is there protecting them.

Their one vulnerable spot protected by Daum/Pearl Abyss

Let them keep their crazy AoE Damage, 10 Second AoE CC, and their full HP/MP heal.

But protecting them during the casting of these spells is what makes them broken. Their is no window of opportunity thus simplifying these classes to a brain dead proportion.

 

As for warrior what makes him over powered is how he can animation cancel most moves directly into his block.

The warriors block is what makes him op

So how about adding some time before his block is up so that way he cant spin into the air doing a front flip with a Great sword and suddenly be blocking as soon as he lands.

Make him not be able to block instantaneously after a big move.

 

 

These makes these Over Powered characters more balanced and actually add some strategy to their gameplay. 

Instead of just standing there and waiting for the opponent to attack before they use a spell with super armor for a CC chain starter or being blocked 90% of the time by warrior.

what do you think?

 

 

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Posted

how to balance

step 1: dont listen to ppl without any clue.

step 2: dont listen to ppl in EU/NA

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Posted

 

Let them keep their crazy AoE Damage, 10 Second AoE CC, and their full HP/MP heal.
I think the way to "Balance" these classes is to take Super Armor away from them.

 

10 second aoe cc? not sure what u mean by that. removing super armor = removing whole dmg, if u would have play wiz/witch pre awk vs all awk classes u would know how it looks like to play without super armor vs super armor...

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Posted

So as we all know. 

Top tier classes are running this game right now.

For warrior and wiz/witch i have a solution! other classes idk D=

But hear me out.

As a wizard/witch they are fine as a glass cannon. Their damage is their and their utility is terrific! Leave it what it is.

I think the way to "Balance" these classes is to take Super Armor away from them.

In any game or anything involving spell casters it is common sense that their most vulnerable spot is when they are casting.

Tut that is not the case here! 

They have very short windows to gain leverage while pvping

Due to when they summon certain spells super armor is there protecting them.

Their one vulnerable spot protected by Daum/Pearl Abyss

Let them keep their crazy AoE Damage, 10 Second AoE CC, and their full HP/MP heal.

But protecting them during the casting of these spells is what makes them broken. Their is no window of opportunity thus simplifying these classes to a brain dead proportion.

 

As for warrior what makes him over powered is how he can animation cancel most moves directly into his block.

The warriors block is what makes him op

So how about adding some time before his block is up so that way he cant spin into the air doing a front flip with a Great sword and suddenly be blocking as soon as he lands.

Make him not be able to block instantaneously after a big move.

 

 

These makes these Over Powered characters more balanced and actually add some strategy to their gameplay. 

Instead of just standing there and waiting for the opponent to attack before they use a spell with super armor for a CC chain starter or being blocked 90% of the time by warrior.

what do you think?

 

 

Theres a myriad of things I disagree with in your post, but im just gonna focus on a few.

"As a wizard/witch they are fine as a glass cannon. Their damage is their and their utility is terrific! Leave it what it is."

This is not the case. Many witches and wizards are using a large amount of DP and/or evasion and relying on medium AP numbers to still deal a large amount of damage. I personally feel classes without grabs are the only ones TRULY screwed against them, the rest of us just have a disadvantage in group PvP.

Warriors play-style revolves around block. I think your idea deserves SOME consideration, but we want it to be balanced, and I think nerfing warriors block timings will completely screw the class.

There is an element to "outplaying" in PvP that a lot of people don't always grasp, myself included. Classes without grabs are at a strong disadvantage in some cases, but they have advantages in others. If im a ranger complaining about fighting warriors and valks because they can just block everything and whenever I try to come in close for a grab I get wrecked, maybe I should practice a good, smart way to be able to grab before suggesting we nerf their block into oblivion and screwing them in half their matchups.

There is a considerable amount of discussion already on this forum about re-working super armor/frontal block/I-frames, and its reaaaally hard to do. A lot of people only think about their own specific matchups, and don't realize that their proposed solutions will in turn destroy 4 other matchups in order to possibly fix 1.

 

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Posted

The vulnerable spot of a wiz/witch is when he is healing, that's when you should interrupt them. they should absolutely not be vulnerable while having to stand still to cast spells and deal damage in a game where every class has dashes, jumps, super armor, guard or iframe AND CC ON EVERY SKILL.

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Posted (edited)

You'd need to revamp witch/wiz awakening entirely in order to remove SA from the skills. Most attacks are point blank or midrange and they can't cancel the casts. Simply removing SA would just make them fodder because they don't have any sustainable in-combat mobility (teleport is 7s cooldown) or iframes/SA like everyone else does. However I'd love to see witch/wiz have their cast times greatly reduced (with damage reduced to match), make the skills animation cancelable so they can do combos like other classes, and give them more in-combat mobility. Basically make them play more like a BDO class. 

This stuff is going to change everything though. 

Edited by Kutsuu
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Posted

To really balance this game, we need start from base things. After that details.

  1. Damage calculation need new formula. Right now we have AP multiplied by skills % damage, sometimes even 1000% vs Damage reduction with is static number. That is obvious it can not work.
  2. Need to remove all CC immunity from CC chains.
  3. Classes need to be related to roles, described by features (1-5 scale):
    1. Support          :     DPS: 1, CC:3, Tanky:2. Mobility:3. Range:4, AoE:4, Utility:5
    2. AoE DPS        :     DPS: 3, CC:2, Tanky:1. Mobility:1. Range:4, AoE:5, Utility:3
    3. Range DPS    :     DPS: 3, CC:2, Tanky:2. Mobility:4. Range:5, AoE:3, Utility:3
    4. Assasin          :     DPS: 5, CC:1, Tanky:3. Mobility:5. Range:1, AoE:1, Utility:3
    5. Tank               :     DPS: 2, CC:4, Tanky:5. Mobility:2. Range:2, AoE:2, Utility:4              
    6. Front line DPS:     DPS: 4, CC:3, Tanky:4. Mobility:3. Range:1, AoE:2, Utility:3 

Why this way? Right now we have absurd situation where all classes are balanced to do everything, without roles. But aditional features are left without wekness so we have and always will have this way the shit tier and god tier classes.
Classes must have strong points, but weak points as well. And all must be related to perform role.

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Posted (edited)

To really balance this game, we need start from base things. After that details.

  1. Damage calculation need new formula. Right now we have AP multiplied by skills % damage, sometimes even 1000% vs Damage reduction with is static number. That is obvious it can not work.
  2. Need to remove all CC immunity from CC chains.
  3. Classes need to be related to roles, described by features (1-5 scale):
    1. Support          :     DPS: 1, CC:3, Tanky:2. Mobility:3. Range:4, AoE:4, Utility:5
    2. AoE DPS        :     DPS: 3, CC:2, Tanky:1. Mobility:1. Range:4, AoE:5, Utility:3
    3. Range DPS    :     DPS: 3, CC:2, Tanky:2. Mobility:4. Range:5, AoE:3, Utility:3
    4. Assasin          :     DPS: 5, CC:1, Tanky:3. Mobility:5. Range:1, AoE:1, Utility:3
    5. Tank               :     DPS: 2, CC:4, Tanky:5. Mobility:2. Range:2, AoE:2, Utility:4              
    6. Front line DPS:     DPS: 4, CC:3, Tanky:4. Mobility:3. Range:1, AoE:2, Utility:3 

Why this way? Right now we have absurd situation where all classes are balanced to do everything, without roles. But aditional features are left without wekness so we have and always will have this way the shit tier and god tier classes.
Classes must have strong points, but weak points as well. And all must be related to perform role.

In a game where you must grind for hundreds of hours, forcing support/tanks to group in order to grind at a reasonable speed is sort of unreasonable, especially considering fast grinders would want to group with other fast grinders.

Such a severe revamp just doesn't seem possible. 

I really like B&S way of doing things when it comes to combat balance and CC (especially CC), but it's too twitchy and too latency dependent to work in NA/EU regions. I imagine there is a compromise point somewhere but we won't see it in B&S or BDO. 

Edited by Kutsuu

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Posted

In a game where you must grind for hundreds of hours, forcing support/tanks to group in order to grind at a reasonable speed is sort of unreasonable, especially considering fast grinders would want to group with other fast grinders.

That is another thing. PvE in this game is sad joke. It should be not possible to grind without support/tank.

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Posted (edited)

In a game where you must grind for hundreds of hours, forcing support/tanks to group in order to grind at a reasonable speed is sort of unreasonable, especially considering fast grinders would want to group with other fast grinders.

We already have damage variance between PVE and PVP.  No reason it couldn't apply with the sort of system suggested here.

This is what I see in the game currently (PVP)... (not going to be perfect)

  1. Warrior                    :     DPS: 4, CC: 4, Tanky: 5. Mobility: 5. Range: 3, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 27   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  2. Ranger                    :     DPS: 4, CC: 3, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 5, AoE: 2, Utility:3 -- Total: 24   My Experience with the class: (Original main, level 56, limited awk)
  3. Berserker                :     DPS: 3, CC: 5, Tanky: 4. Mobility: 4. Range: 3, AoE: 5, Utility:4 -- Total: 28   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  4. Sorceress               :     DPS: 5, CC: 4, Tanky: 3. Mobility: 4. Range: 3, AoE: 4, Utility:4 -- Total: 27   My Experience with the class: (Second main, level 56, no awk)
  5. Valkyrie                  :     DPS: 3, CC: 4, Tanky: 4. Mobility: 2. Range: 2, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 21   My Experience with the class: (Minor alt, level 17)
  6. Wizard                   :     DPS: 5, CC: 5, Tanky: 4. Mobility: 5. Range: 5, AoE: 5, Utility:5 -- Total: 34   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  7. Witch                     :     DPS: 4, CC: 5, Tanky: 5. Mobility: 5. Range: 5, AoE: 5, Utility:5 -- Total: 34   My Experience with the class: (Minor alt, level 17)
  8. Tamer                    :     DPS: 4, CC: 5, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 2, AoE: 3, Utility:2 -- Total: 23   My Experience with the class: (Mid-alt, level 53)
  9. Musa                     :     DPS: 4, CC: 3, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 3, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 23   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  10. Maehwa                 :     DPS: 5, CC: 3, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 2, AoE: 1, Utility:3 -- Total: 21   My Experience with the class: (Mid-alt, level 50)
  11. Ninja                      :     DPS: 3, CC: 4, Tanky: 1. Mobility: 4. Range: 2, AoE: 2, Utility:5 -- Total: 21   My Experience with the class: (Minor alt, level 34)
  12. Kunoichi                 :     DPS: 2, CC: 3, Tanky: 1. Mobility: 3. Range: 2, AoE: 3, Utility:5 -- Total: 19   My Experience with the class: (Current Main, level 60)
  13. Dark Knight(PreAw) :     DPS: 3, CC: 4, Tanky: 3. Mobility: 4. Range: 3, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 23   My Experience with the class: (Current Secondary, level 57)
Edited by Velexia
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Posted (edited)

We already have damage variance between PVE and PVP.  No reason it couldn't apply with the sort of system suggested here.

This is what I see in the game currently (PVP)... (not going to be perfect)

  1. Warrior                    :     DPS: 4, CC: 4, Tanky: 5. Mobility: 5. Range: 3, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 27   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  2. Ranger                    :     DPS: 4, CC: 3, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 5, AoE: 2, Utility:3 -- Total: 24   My Experience with the class: (Original main, level 56, limited awk)
  3. Berserker                :     DPS: 3, CC: 5, Tanky: 4. Mobility: 4. Range: 3, AoE: 5, Utility:4 -- Total: 28   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  4. Sorceress               :     DPS: 5, CC: 4, Tanky: 3. Mobility: 4. Range: 3, AoE: 4, Utility:4 -- Total: 27   My Experience with the class: (Second main, level 56, no awk)
  5. Valkyrie                  :     DPS: 3, CC: 4, Tanky: 4. Mobility: 2. Range: 2, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 21   My Experience with the class: (Minor alt, level 17)
  6. Wizard                   :     DPS: 5, CC: 5, Tanky: 4. Mobility: 5. Range: 5, AoE: 5, Utility:5 -- Total: 34   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  7. Witch                     :     DPS: 4, CC: 5, Tanky: 5. Mobility: 5. Range: 5, AoE: 5, Utility:5 -- Total: 34   My Experience with the class: (Minor alt, level 17)
  8. Tamer                    :     DPS: 4, CC: 5, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 2, AoE: 3, Utility:2 -- Total: 23   My Experience with the class: (Mid-alt, level 53)
  9. Musa                     :     DPS: 4, CC: 3, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 3, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 23   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  10. Maehwa                 :     DPS: 5, CC: 3, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 2, AoE: 1, Utility:3 -- Total: 21   My Experience with the class: (Mid-alt, level 50)
  11. Ninja                      :     DPS: 3, CC: 4, Tanky: 1. Mobility: 4. Range: 2, AoE: 2, Utility:5 -- Total: 21   My Experience with the class: (Minor alt, level 34)
  12. Kunoichi                 :     DPS: 2, CC: 3, Tanky: 1. Mobility: 3. Range: 2, AoE: 3, Utility:5 -- Total: 19   My Experience with the class: (Current Main, level 60)
  13. Dark Knight(PreAw) :     DPS: 3, CC: 4, Tanky: 3. Mobility: 4. Range: 3, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 23   My Experience with the class: (Current Secondary, level 57)

Mobility 5? are you drunk? how you come to these points?

also the list is shet. Range cant have the same weight as CC or DPS in a game where Range means nearly nothing

Edited by Wollbert

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Posted

  1. Classes need to be related to roles, described by features (1-5 scale):
    1. Support          :     DPS: 1, CC:3, Tanky:2. Mobility:3. Range:4, AoE:4, Utility:5
    2. AoE DPS        :     DPS: 3, CC:2, Tanky:1. Mobility:1. Range:4, AoE:5, Utility:3
    3. Range DPS    :     DPS: 3, CC:2, Tanky:2. Mobility:4. Range:5, AoE:3, Utility:3
    4. Assasin          :     DPS: 5, CC:1, Tanky:3. Mobility:5. Range:1, AoE:1, Utility:3
    5. Tank               :     DPS: 2, CC:4, Tanky:5. Mobility:2. Range:2, AoE:2, Utility:4              
    6. Front line DPS:     DPS: 4, CC:3, Tanky:4. Mobility:3. Range:1, AoE:2, Utility:3

im afraid this is not the game for you, there are other mmo's out there who fulfill your desire for the holy trinity of classes and constant requirements of full balanced groups to accomplish things (and by balanced groups i mean having slaves who "enjoy" getting hit on or to just sit back in their chairs to heal and yell on others).

the next point is, that this table is your personal opinion on how class roles should be defined. In MY opinion for example, i would i no way see assassin classes as the top dps, just top burst dmg, but NOT top consistent dps. Because assassin classes bring mobility, utility, escapes and often also the ability to pick their fights by their choosing compared to pure dps classes that lack those.

if you want to stick with true old scool rpg class/build roles, the top dps would always be mages/casters, except for pure dps-focused melee fighters (or sometimes archers) which would require insanely rare + op gear to achieve the same or more, also support classes should be tankier than all the dps and assassin classes, second tankiest right after the actual tanks imho (yes even for pure healer classes). The idea of the tank doing less damage than damage dealers is very outdated and makes no sense at all, because in no way would the tank be less geared or less skilled than every other fighter, he might be slower and have less mobility or utilities due to heavier armor if at all.

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Posted

im afraid this is not the game for you, there are other mmo's out there who fulfill your desire for the holy trinity of classes and constant requirements of full balanced groups to accomplish things (and by balanced groups i mean having slaves who "enjoy" getting hit on or to just sit back in their chairs to heal and yell on others).

the next point is, that this table is your personal opinion on how class roles should be defined. In MY opinion for example, i would i no way see assassin classes as the top dps, just top burst dmg, but NOT top consistent dps. Because assassin classes bring mobility, utility, escapes and often also the ability to pick their fights by their choosing compared to pure dps classes that lack those.

if you want to stick with true old scool rpg class/build roles, the top dps would always be mages/casters, except for pure dps-focused melee fighters (or sometimes archers) which would require insanely rare + op gear to achieve the same or more, also support classes should be tankier than all the dps and assassin classes, second tankiest right after the actual tanks imho (yes even for pure healer classes). The idea of the tank doing less damage than damage dealers is very outdated and makes no sense at all, because in no way would the tank be less geared or less skilled than every other fighter, he might be slower and have less mobility or utilities due to heavier armor if at all.

That is not holy trinity. I didn't even specify the healer (only possible spot under support role, but range for support may be far higher than healer class).

Assasin role is fast kill, it means DPS and mobility, only avarge utility. Example of assassin role in BDO is sorceress, while frontline DPS is awakened warrior.

First, that is not old school rpg class/build roles. Second, in true old school rpg mages and archers are not top DPS. For example in classic Warhammer mage/archer make ~half DPS of slayer. Your statment may be accurate to old school crap korean MMOs, but not RPG at all. Beside this, give top DPS to classes with range and AoE is pure nonsense and leads to broken game balance.
I do not even single reason why support should be more tanky than DPS class. It sounds like absurd, unless it is something like overlord in Lineage 2.
Reason why tank should make less DPS is simple - combination of shield and sword is not as deadly as combination of dual weapon or 2h weapons and fighting style.

 

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Assasin role is fast kill, it means DPS and mobility, only avarge utility. Example of assassin role in BDO is sorceress, while frontline DPS is awakened warrior.

no, an assassin's role is to specifically take out strategical unsuspecting weak/squishy targets in the backline, in NO way should or could an assassin take on a trained fighter in an open 1v1. If an Assassin/Rogue like class can win a open fight against a trained fighter, its always only because he would be using unfair tricks, distractions or any other form of unfair advantages & utilities. The image of the "assassin" beeing the top-notch unbeatable melee ninja-fighter-sayajin, that is whats coming from "old school crap asian rpg's" which also made it into the western games nowadays.

ye shield + sword shouldnt output the same damage as dual wield or 2handers, but the tank role doesn't specify that a shield has to be used.

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no, an assassin's role is to specifically take out strategical unsuspecting weak/squishy targets in the backline, in NO way should or could an assassin take on a trained fighter in an open 1v1. If an Assassin/Rogue like class can win a open fight against a trained fighter, its always only because he would be using unfair tricks, distractions or any other form of unfair advantages & utilities. The image of the "assassin" beeing the top-notch unbeatable melee ninja-fighter-sayajin, that is whats coming from "old school crap asian rpg's" which also made it into the western games nowadays.

ye shield + sword shouldnt output the same damage as dual wield or 2handers, but the tank role doesn't specify that a shield has to be used.

Yes, it is the reason front line fighter should be more tanky than assasin. But assasin should be more tanky than range, AoE and support classes. Overall I do agree assasins should be in dissadvantage in 1v1 fight with front line classes, all classes should be. And no, assasin should not have advantage of utilities in fight with front line fighter, at this point they should be equal. You propably look at assasin as on stealth class - while I'm big enemy of stealth. Stealth should not have place in MMO.

But class design and common sense do.

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Yes, it is the reason front line fighter should be more tanky than assasin. But assasin should be more tanky than range, AoE and support classes. Overall I do agree assasins should be in dissadvantage in 1v1 fight with front line classes, all classes should be. And no, assasin should not have advantage of utilities in fight with front line fighter, at this point they should be equal. You propably look at assasin as on stealth class - while I'm big enemy of stealth. Stealth should not have place in MMO.

But class design and common sense do.

But but ninja/Kuno = rogue. No? Kappa

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We already have damage variance between PVE and PVP.  No reason it couldn't apply with the sort of system suggested here.

This is what I see in the game currently (PVP)... (not going to be perfect)

  1. Warrior                    :     DPS: 4, CC: 4, Tanky: 5. Mobility: 5. Range: 3, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 27   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  2. Ranger                    :     DPS: 4, CC: 3, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 5, AoE: 2, Utility:3 -- Total: 24   My Experience with the class: (Original main, level 56, limited awk)
  3. Berserker                :     DPS: 3, CC: 5, Tanky: 4. Mobility: 4. Range: 3, AoE: 5, Utility:4 -- Total: 28   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  4. Sorceress               :     DPS: 5, CC: 4, Tanky: 3. Mobility: 4. Range: 3, AoE: 4, Utility:4 -- Total: 27   My Experience with the class: (Second main, level 56, no awk)
  5. Valkyrie                  :     DPS: 3, CC: 4, Tanky: 4. Mobility: 2. Range: 2, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 21   My Experience with the class: (Minor alt, level 17)
  6. Wizard                   :     DPS: 5, CC: 5, Tanky: 4. Mobility: 5. Range: 5, AoE: 5, Utility:5 -- Total: 34   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  7. Witch                     :     DPS: 4, CC: 5, Tanky: 5. Mobility: 5. Range: 5, AoE: 5, Utility:5 -- Total: 34   My Experience with the class: (Minor alt, level 17)
  8. Tamer                    :     DPS: 4, CC: 5, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 2, AoE: 3, Utility:2 -- Total: 23   My Experience with the class: (Mid-alt, level 53)
  9. Musa                     :     DPS: 4, CC: 3, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 3, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 23   My Experience with the class: (Outside perspective only)
  10. Maehwa                 :     DPS: 5, CC: 3, Tanky: 2. Mobility: 5. Range: 2, AoE: 1, Utility:3 -- Total: 21   My Experience with the class: (Mid-alt, level 50)
  11. Ninja                      :     DPS: 3, CC: 4, Tanky: 1. Mobility: 4. Range: 2, AoE: 2, Utility:5 -- Total: 21   My Experience with the class: (Minor alt, level 34)
  12. Kunoichi                 :     DPS: 2, CC: 3, Tanky: 1. Mobility: 3. Range: 2, AoE: 3, Utility:5 -- Total: 19   My Experience with the class: (Current Main, level 60)
  13. Dark Knight(PreAw) :     DPS: 3, CC: 4, Tanky: 3. Mobility: 4. Range: 3, AoE: 3, Utility:3 -- Total: 23   My Experience with the class: (Current Secondary, level 57)

How can you rank wizard and witch (so high no less) without experiencing them first hand in PVP? This is just a guess, in which case you should not have included them in your list. 

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While removing the frontal guards/super armor/invincibility would make the game have more emphasis on movement (with distance) I'm not fond of inundating moves, there's already move sequence locks and whatnot, there should be little if any more slowness and clunk added to the fluidity of the game. I approve of the play style of less super armor and whatnot but it wouldn't necessarily change anything- if you have people just spamming moves now with little risk, if you add more risk due to less invulnerabilities, it can bog down people's decision to take risk because they don't judge it worth it, so they'll just sit in block or S key or run off instead of trying to fight each other because there's not plenty of tools to do so.

One thing they should fix/remove is the RNG, having RNG on CC irks me. "CC" resisted "CC" resisted "CC?" throwing out 3 CCs, (Or more than one for that matter) that land on someone for them to resist or for you to have to repeat you winning over someone in offense/defense is silly

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How can you rank wizard and witch (so high no less) without experiencing them first hand in PVP? This is just a guess, in which case you should not have included them in your list. 

more importantly he ranks wizard "dps" above witch, when the witches skills do actually more dmg and with slightly faster animations even, the only wizard skills doing more damage than the witches are his 100% and his ranged water sphere with the flow, which is on a cd.

but then again he gives both wiz/witch 5 in mobility compared to a 4 on dk and sorc, and 5 in range when they are pretty much full melee after awakening, its pretty clear its just another generic unfounded wiz/witch hate post.

Yes, it is the reason front line fighter should be more tanky than assasin. But assasin should be more tanky than range, AoE and support classes. Overall I do agree assasins should be in dissadvantage in 1v1 fight with front line classes, all classes should be. And no, assasin should not have advantage of utilities in fight with front line fighter, at this point they should be equal. You propably look at assasin as on stealth class - while I'm big enemy of stealth. Stealth should not have place in MMO.

But class design and common sense do.

assassin class always falls into the "rogue" class category. You say you agree they should be at a disadvantage in 1v1 with front liners, but then in the next sentence you say they should be equal?

and then you even say assassins should be tankier than: (support classes): clerics/paladins, druids/shamans, "white" mages with near endless heal+shield spells and also tankier than (range classes): hunter/beast master, archer (with medium-heavy armor), battle mages ect.?

and you even are against stealth, that means the class you're describing for the assassin role is not an assassin, but merely a simple pure melee (frontline) fighter with lighter armor and slightly faster, something among the lines of barbarians / skirmishers. Those would be good candidates for top dps classes as well in a ideal (rp & lore-wise) class balance setting.

 

edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(character_class)

Edited by Escapism

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what makes warrior op isn't their block alone, it s the combination of block + iframe every 2sec (and SA coating when it s in cd coz why not)........

 

Valk mobility 2???

Sorc mobility 4???????????

Wiz mobility 5???????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

your whole chart is fcked or we don't play the same game idk

Edited by PanpanTheGreat

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You can't remove SA&frontal guard from witch&wizard without ruining their ability to PvE. This game is also a solo rpg grind simulator as far as PvE goes, so makes even less sense to exclude 2 classes from that(because PvP).

Majority witch and wiz protected AoE skills are point plank or mele/mid range and cant be cancelled. You'll get -----d in newest&highest levelled PvE areas, if you lack ability to avoid KD at least frontally and cant cancel casting with evasion or block.

Same reason non-awakened classes cant grind Valencia pt 2, elites and above difficulty, unless insanely over-geared. You need the complete tool kit from awakening, including frontal guard or SA(iframes&block for some classes), to do new zones effectively. Will be even more crucial for Kamasyliva. The poor souls currently playing DK no awakening, knows what I'm talking about :(

If they want to nerf witch or wizard it should focus on toning down the dmg. I would honestly be fine with PA&Kakao nerfing my witch's dmg some, if they instead gave me a more well-rounded tool kit, like ability to cancel casting and hint more mobility.

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assassin class always falls into the "rogue" class category. You say you agree they should be at a disadvantage in 1v1 with front liners, but then in the next sentence you say they should be equal?

and then you even say assassins should be tankier than: (support classes): clerics/paladins, druids/shamans, "white" mages with near endless heal+shield spells and also tankier than (range classes): hunter/beast master, archer (with medium-heavy armor), battle mages ect.?

and you even are against stealth, that means the class you're describing for the assassin role is not an assassin, but merely a simple pure melee (frontline) fighter with lighter armor and slightly faster, something among the lines of barbarians / skirmishers. Those would be good candidates for top dps classes as well in a ideal (rp & lore-wise) class balance setting.

 

edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(character_class)

In terms of utilities.

Paladin is tank with utilities oriented over heals and white magic. And yes, assassin should be tankier than rest of the list. All kind of mages, archers etc should always be more squashy than melee fighters included assasins.

Good example are daggers from Linage 2 (C0-C6)

 

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Remove protection area.  buff the Elion blessing of valk to 12 sec duration for 2m cooldown.

Healing Lighthouse IV

Self: Recovers 30% of the user's MAX HP up to 3 times /to Self: Recovers 10% of the user's MAX HP up to 3 times
Friend: Recovers 20% of the friends' MAX HP up to 3 times /to Friend: Recovers 25% of the friends' MAX HP up to 3 times
Recovers MP 150 of the user up to 3 times

Flame Knot

Damage 428%
Super Armor while Grappling remove
Bound if Grappling succeeds

Cataclysm IV

Damage per Hit 855% x MAX 7 Hits /to 655% Max 7 hits.
Accuracy +25%  / remove
Bound if a hit lands
Recover 30 MP per successful hit  / remove
Down Attack remove
Super Armor while using the skill
Casting Speed +10% for 10 sec. while using the skill / remove

Bolide of Destruction III

Damage per Hit 911% x MAX 6 Hits

Burn Damage of 50 every 3s for 9s per successful hit
Accuracy +20%  /remove
100 chance of Critical Hit
Bound if a hit lands
Down Attack remove
Super Armor while using the skill

Water Sphere III

Damage per Hit 878% x MAX 5 Hits to
Accuracy +30% /remove
MP +40 per successful hit/ remove
Knockdown if a hit lands /to  [Hif the first hit land]

Flow: Aqua Bomb

Damage per Hit 1049% x 5 Hits
Accuracy +10% remove
50% chance of Critical Hit remove
Air Smash if a hit lands
Down Smash if a hit lands remove
Down Attack remove

 

Aqua Jail Explosion IV

Damage per Hit 478% x MAX 13 Hits
Accuracy +20%/ remove
Stiffness if a hit lands
Movement Speed -15% for 10 sec. if a hit lands
100% chance of Critical Hit remove
Super Armor while using the skill / to Forward Guard.

Hellfire IV

Damage per Hit 632% x Max 11 Hits /to 475% x MAX 11 hits
Accuracy +20% remove
Stiffness before hit
Recover MP 50 per hit remove
Stun if a hit lands
Down Attack
Forward Guard while using the skill

Chilling Wave III

Damage per Hit 608% x MAX 12 Hits
Extra attack up to 12 hits during combo attack
Accuracy +30% remove
Movement Speed -20% for 10 sec. if a hit lands remove
Pushes the target (Not in PVP)
Forward Guard while using the skill
Critical Hit Chance +8% for 10 sec. upon using the skill remove
Knockback if a hit lands in PVP
Down Attack
Consumes extra 50 MP in combo attack

Awakening: Godr Sphera of Lord Red

A transitioning skill into Godr Sphera.
Transition available while using attack skills
Forward Guard after transitioned into Godr Sphera  remove

Controlled Madness remove

 

Perfect nerf/change.


 

 

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In terms of utilities.

Paladin is tank with utilities oriented over heals and white magic. And yes, assassin should be tankier than rest of the list. All kind of mages, archers etc should always be more squashy than melee fighters included assasins.

Good example are daggers from Linage 2 (C0-C6)

 

but i guess we just wont agree that an assassin is NOT a "fighter"-type class, whereas an archer is. You post an example from a shitty asian mmo with a terrible class design where the rogue & assassin classes are derived from the fighter class and have absolutely nothing to do with the term assassination or anything else rogue-like. Because that game has only 2 class base archetypes (fighter and caster, lul). But then again if there are any ranged archer classes in that game, they would be derived from the fighter as well, which should make them just as tanky as the rogues with that logic.

i can only refer to the wikipedia site again: "In its original incarnation, the Assassin class was a sub class of the Thief.", " specialise in defeating an enemy without becoming involved in a protracted melee", "Typically, once the Assassin player expends resources during the offensive, the player is left defensively vulnerable and unable to continue the offensive", "are usually the physically attacking "glass cannon". I could go on and on with this.

 

exact same thing with Ninjas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja

"The functions of the ninja included espionage, sabotage, infiltration, assassination and guerilla warfare."

trained mainly in "espionage and survival skills, disguises, tactics" ect.

 

Any Rogue, Ninja, Assassin, whatever you want to call it - type class should be pretty much useless in any direct combat against any trained fighter, even combat-proven caster-hybrids like clerics or battlemages would have more actual combat experience and/or better weapon training. Heck even gandalf killed most of his enemies with his sword, not with spells, because he actually spent time using it instead of sneaking around stealing shit and looking for treasure like bilbo (who was in fact an actual rogue "class"). The modern image of the Rogue/Assassin-archetype in mmo's (and especially in asian mmo's) is so heavily distorted due to complete utter bs anime series and games and because people today dont want to play any class that doesnt excel in every area the same way every other class does.

 

If you want every class in an mmo to be equally balanced in everything you end up with a shitty class design just like in bdo or any other asian mmo, where every class can oneshot/onecombo every other class and without any actual differences in their capabilities or playstyles, only in their animations and class & skill names. Or you end up with a shitty class design like WoW, AoC or GW2 (or bdo pre awakening), where for some reason everyone is nearly unkillable and fights between any 2 classes can last nearly forever due to either constant potion chugging, or because everyone has selfheals or just dodges everything all the time.

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 Like wikipedia is everything, it would be waste of time to answer for it.

Or you end up with a shitty class design like WoW, AoC or GW2 (or bdo pre awakening), where for some reason everyone is nearly unkillable and fights between any 2 classes can last nearly forever due to either constant potion chugging, or because everyone has selfheals or just dodges everything all the time.

All of this cases have far better balance and design than current BDO. But also I do not see here perfection..

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