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No. Games that ignore their customers die. Every time.

63 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

 There have been hundreds of mmo's released in the past 15 years. Sadly, most of them got burried so hard in failure that, despite many of you being die hard gamers, may have never even heard of. 

If history repeats itself, every mmo has died or lost over 90% of its playerbase based on just a few things.

1. Lack of attention to detail/bugs. 

  In most cases, this is due to a severe lack of funding. Lots of times this is due to the shot callers being that of bankers, multi cooperations, or, in some cases, lack of focus on a particular market. I.E. trying to appeal to too many regions at once. This has killed countless games. Final fantasy 14, hellgate london, age of conan and tabula rasa. Games that died so fast they had to shut off the servers on most of them.

2. Neglect of what the majority wants

Archeage, Star wars galaxies and warhammer online suffered tremendously here. Among others, many of these MMO's were regarded to have some of the greatest selling points, but fell flat after adding one or two changes that had such drastic effects that playerbases got cut in half within the first month of said changes. Warhammer online doesnt even exist anymore, which is a shame since it had one of the best pvp systems (i got to play it)

3. Switching business models after release

Another issue in regards to where the funding is coming from. Big bankers and investors are there for the money, and sometimes their real world regimen doesnt work so well in the virtual world. I have never seen a title get a population increase after switching its business model. People take a ton of consideration before starting an MMO, its a huge time sink and an investment. That said, changing it by adding subscription models, cash shops, or blatant pay2win features after the fact has the same psychological effect as breaching a contract. In most cases, games that do this are suffering somehow and this is their plan to milk the playerbase. You don't see successful MMO's do this like, ever.

Players are not idiots, livestock, and/or numbers

Unlike a product you'd pick up at walmart or sainsburys, players are giving immense feedback in MMO's. This, for many developers, is an untapped advantage to the industry. You could set up a conference anywhere in the world with your developers present and gamers would flock to you and provide feedback. Most companies for other products have to pay survey third parties for this quirk. 

Edited by Frostfire2k
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Posted

Agree!

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Posted

Well you are mostly not wrong. Except maybe on point 3 cuz Aion, for example, got a huge population boost when it went F2P with P2W cash shop.

Ofc after how hard NCsoft drove the game into the ground pretty much any major change would have been beneficial.

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Posted

I don't agree with all you write Mr. If it really is this bad as you write here, then BDO would have closed down around Christmas imo.

1. You might concern at bit much here about the World problems.

2. Compare other MMO's to this is always a bad idea. Two different Worlds.

3. And you have absolute nothing to say here about this.

4. I believe they listen, there are some activity by the CM's in here ;) and a weekly update. If it's all black then why even live...come on dude.

 

I hope all you did write here, is actually something you would do as a employer of Kakao, if you were hired..right?

 

 

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Posted

 There have been hundreds of mmo's released in the past 15 years. Sadly, most of them got burried so hard in failure that, despite many of you being die hard gamers, may have never even heard of. 

If history repeats itself, every mmo has died or lost over 90% of its playerbase based on just a few things.

1. Lack of attention to detail. 

  In most cases, this is due to a severe lack of funding. Lots of times this is due to the shot callers being that of bankers, multi cooperations, or, in some cases, lack of focus on a particular market. I.E. trying to appeal to too many regions at once. This has killed countless games. Final fantasy 14, hellgate london, age of conan and tabula rasa. Games that died so fast they had to shut off the servers on most of them.

2. Neglect of what the majority wants

Archeage, Star wars galaxies and warhammer online suffered tremendously here. Among others, many of these MMO's were regarded to have some of the greatest selling points, but fell flat after adding one or two changes that had such drastic effects that playerbases got cut in half within the first month of said changes. Warhammer online doesnt even exist anymore, which is a shame since it had one of the best pvp systems (i got to play it)

3. Switching business models after release

Another issue in regards to where the funding is coming from. Big bankers and investors are there for the money, and sometimes their real world regimen doesnt work so well in the virtual world. I have never seen a title get a population increase after switching its business model. People take a ton of consideration before starting an MMO, its a huge time sink and an investment. That said, changing it by adding subscription models, cash shops, or blatant pay2win features after the fact has the same psychological effect as breaching a contract. In most cases, games that do this are suffering somehow and this is their plan to milk the playerbase. You don't see successful MMO's do this like, ever.

Players are not idiots, livestock, and/or numbers

Unlike a product you'd pick up at walmart or sainsburys, players are giving immense feedback in MMO's. This, for many developers, is an untapped advantage to the industry. You could set up a conference anywhere in the world with your developers present and gamers would flock to you and provide feedback. Most companies for other products have to pay survey third parties for this quirk. 

Why putting al that effort in this post while most of it is your own experience, this game is alrdeady over 6 years old in Korea and a big hit in Korea!!! There is no game that can comapare to what Black desert has to offer in its entirety!!!

I don't agree with all you write Mr. If it really is this bad as you write here, then BDO would have closed down around Christmas imo.

 

This guy gets it, if this MMO was a Flop it would have died in NA / EU a year ago!!!

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Posted

tfw someone things a personal blowie is the same as what the community wants.

tfw they also think community desires are both unanimous and healthy for the game.

smh

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Posted

tfw someone things a personal blowie is the same as what the community wants.

tfw they also think community desires are both unanimous and healthy for the game.

smh

Huh? I used games as examples, not my experience with them. Heck, i didn't even play most of the games mentioned, i just followed the community and read about them

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Posted (edited)

 

2. Neglect of what the majority wants

Archeage, Star wars galaxies and warhammer online suffered tremendously here. Among others, many of these MMO's were regarded to have some of the greatest selling points, but fell flat after adding one or two changes that had such drastic effects that playerbases got cut in half within the first month of said changes. Warhammer online doesnt even exist anymore, which is a shame since it had one of the best pvp systems (i got to play it)

Depending on the topic.

The problem is that devs can't please everyone, at the same time cannot place the majority. Devs must choose targeted player base and only this player base listen. Try to please everyone is the major problem of MMO genre - the games are for everyone and in effect for noone.
For example, you can not make game focused on PvP and start listen PvE players (yes, that is BDO case) because it will cause mess and no content at all.
Other example - everyone thinks some thing is broken, like RNG - it is clearly broken and devs should listen this kind of feedback since it does not touch major feature of the game.

Edited by Hekki

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Posted (edited)

I agree on most points however you can't really compare this game to other MMos here in the West because our publisher has no real influence on the core game because, well they don't develop the game they just "transport" it. However the customer service and lack of communication are major flaws that make me doubt whether this game has a future here in Europe and NY. 

Also the lack of action taken on issues they CAN influence like the desync server stability and so on is really poor. 

 

However on business model change, it depends. Elder scrolls online changed from subscription to b2p and it was exactly the right choice to be made. Gw2 went f2p which worked out as well because it's not p2w. 

However changing from b2p to subscription even if it's hidden (value pack) is a bad move, so is the introduction of more and more p2w elements into a b2p game. Moving to f2p would make this even worse in my opinion.  So black desert has really poor management in my opinion and the risk of it dying out if nothing changes is definitely given. 

Edited by Sareth

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Posted (edited)

I agree on most points however you can't really compare this game to other MMos here in the West because our publisher has no real influence on the core game because, well they don't develop the game they just "transport" it. However the customer service and lack of communication are major flaws that make me doubt whether this game has a future here in Europe and NY. 

 

However on business model change, it depends. Elder scrolls online changed from subscription to b2p and it was exactly the right choice to be made. Gw2 went f2p which worked out as well because it's not p2w. 

However changing from b2p to subscription even if it's hidden (value pack) is a bad move, so is the introduction of more and more p2w elements into a b2p game. So black desert has really poor management in my opinion and the risk of it dying out if nothing changes is definitely given. 

Those games you mentioned were all struggling when they did that. They are not very popular anymore and for good reasons.

Some obvious and perhaps hated examples of successful MMO's are World of Warcraft, EVE,  and Final Fantasy 11. All have been around for an eternity with fairly consistent numbers without changing the model.'

 

Fun Fact: Final Fantasy 11 was so popular that players bought expansion packs for their PS2 to play it on the console. Which litterally just shut down last year.

Edited by Frostfire2k
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Posted (edited)

Those games you mentioned were all struggling when they did that. They are not very popular anymore and for good reasons.

Some obvious and perhaps hated examples of successful MMO's are World of Warcraft, EVE,  and Final Fantasy 11. All have been around for an eternity with fairly consistent numbers without changing the model.

Elder scrolls online had a disaster launch and if they would not have changed the subscription model it would be dead by now. I'm not saying they are incredibly popular but changing business model in this case was the only right decision in my opinion. 

Gw2 also did not suffer from moving to f2p it actually gained population, of course the reason was they wanted to boost population because the game wasn't as popular anymore but the declining popularity is not because of the business model change but because of other design choices like the lack of end game motivation and progression.

However if Bdo would turn f2p it would be its end because that would mean even more p2w elements, we all know what kind of publisher were dealing with,  which gw2 did not do.

Edited by Sareth
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Posted

"Succesfull MMO" 

No thank you, I prefer bdo way it is.

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Posted

"Succesfull MMO" 

No thank you, I prefer bdo way it is.

>I prefer a BDO with constant lies and no communication.

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Posted (edited)

 

Why putting al that effort in this post while most of it is your own experience, this game is alrdeady over 6 years old in Korea and a big hit in Korea!!! There is no game that can comapare to what Black desert has to offer in its entirety!!!

This guy gets it, if this MMO was a Flop it would have died in NA / EU a year ago!!!

 

didn't korea just have their 2 year anniversary in December O.o don't know where you got 6 years or more from. Also NA/EU is only a little bit over a year old, we just had our 1 year anniversary last month.

Edited by Excisionex

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Posted (edited)

didn't korea just have their 2 year anniversary in December O.o don't know where you got 6 years or more from. Also NA/EU is only a little bit over a year old, we just had our 1 year anniversary.

Hes from the future.

Edited by CtrlW
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Posted

Hes from the future.

seems like it, maybe he knows who savatore is from "The Flash" waiting after every episode is driving me nuts.

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Posted

>I prefer a BDO with constant lies and no communication.

HUR DUR, BDO DOES NOT GIVE ME FREE PEN BOSS ARMOR/DENDY/KZARKA.

95% of players don't even visit forum.

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Posted

HUR DUR, BDO DOES NOT GIVE ME FREE PEN BOSS ARMOR/DENDY/KZARKA.

95% of players don't even visit forum.

Nice strawman. Nowhere did anyone say that. I guess they're not paying you very much since you seem new at shilling.

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Posted

Nice strawman. Nowhere did anyone say that. I guess they're not paying you very much since you seem new at shilling.

And you're trying too hard to use your newly discovered word mate.

 

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Posted (edited)

You forgot Nr. 4: Deleting threads considering themes they dont want to hear, like still unbanned, reported bots or the heavy usage of bots in general etc.

Edited by Zhev
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Posted

I do wonder if the success of this game, is down in part being that there isn't any other MMO out there.  Forget WOW, thats a breed apart.  But really looking at this year there's nothing good on the horizon, certainly nothing better than BDO.

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Posted

If the product at its core offer little to nothing interesting, then people wont stick around. Communication will not save this. You can be unhappy with certain design decisions with the core product, but still you keep using it because it's good / unique. BDO is all that, vast open world, unique combat, top notch graphics, so many different minigames and systems, longterm progression, etc. What other games offer this? And Western devs lack creation, they'll never pull something like this off. 

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Posted (edited)

I do wonder if the success of this game, is down in part being that there isn't any other MMO out there.  Forget WOW, thats a breed apart.  But really looking at this year there's nothing good on the horizon, certainly nothing better than BDO.

Final fantasy a realm reborn is not only popular, but its community is generally happy! :)

It fills its own niche and rocks it big time. You should see the housing in that game, holy moly. Also the PVE is best in class and no desync! It doesnt have pvp. Oh wait it does have PVP and its actually pretty good too! SURPRISE! other games do exist!

Edited by Frostfire2k

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Posted

Why is Final Fantasy 14 listed in your first issue? The first iteration of it failed, yes, but they fixed the game and relaunched it to critical success. It's the second biggest MMO next to WoW and it's actually thriving with a new expansion due out this year.

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