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tamers fair in general pvp(aka pretty good) due to PA's graph.


56 posts in this topic

Posted

While it may sound true...it's illogical.

K/D ratio also means a fix ratio. Basically you can't have a Kill without a death.

You can't have a tamer 20/5 with a warrior 100/25, unless every other class is feeding that warrior somehow, which is not likely, the chart does not show, and statistically impossible.

Basically your whole argument fails in simple statistical and analytical discipline.

There are fallacies in the graph. It is limited, the devs have publically caution then during the display.

This does not mean you are right, you are in this case, absolutely, in all rational sense wrong. It's not what happened, it can't happen, and impossible to take from this graph

 

Impossible. 

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Posted (edited)

While it may sound true...it's illogical.

K/D ratio also means a fix ratio. Basically you can't have a Kill without a death.

You can't have a tamer 20/5 with a warrior 100/25, unless every other class is feeding that warrior somehow, which is not likely, the chart does not show, and statistically impossible.

Basically your whole argument fails in simple statistical and analytical discipline.

There are fallacies in the graph. It is limited, the devs have publically caution then during the display.

This does not mean you are right, you are in this case, absolutely, in all rational sense wrong. It's not what happened, it can't happen, and impossible to take from this graph

 

What ? Ofc its possible.

Analyze this:
Wizard jumps into bunch of enemies then launch its 100% ultimate killing 4, dies in the proccess. He does this 25 times achieving 100/25 KD
Tamer pickung up lonely wounded targets in the same amount of time will achieve 20/5 KD


So again what is impossible with this scenario ???

Edited by mate
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Posted (edited)

Tamer has a super high skill cap and can compete with ANY class,save maybe DK(I havent seen enough of the class to judge), in smaller scaled PvP.  The only time tamer TRULY falters is mass zerg style PvP.  In Korea there are forms of PvP that put more emphasis on smaller scale so they have a lot more opportunity to shine.(Wish we had Daum Hosted 3v3 tourneys)  The issue with NA(no idea about EU) is that the only PvP that really matters is zerg pvp,  IE 50v50+ and that's just not what tamer excels at.  Even when the game was in pre awaken and Tamer was an absolute monster of a class they still met struggles in super high numbered PvP.  Minus the bugs I personally think Tamers kit is fine but I do agree with the notion that some skills aren't working as properly as they should.  Also in KR desync isn't much of a factor and for a short ranged class like tamer that's a relatively big deal. 

Literally what Ginos said.  I don't have a recent screenshot of my tamer RBF but the difference between DK and Tamer for example is night and day. This screenshot was done with a 186 AP DK while in most cases now I struggle to get above 400 points on my when i was 204/214/290. The results are really self evident, since getting the hang of my DK my average score has been over 100 points more then My tamers who has overall way better gear. Now my Ping is probably a factor in this I play in NA and live in italy but the fact I average maybe 250- 300 high estimate on my tamer and 400+ on a DK with 186 AP should really show you the Gap between how strong the classes are. If I had say 210/212/300 on my DK I'd probably average around 700-800 points a game. The only thing that's kept me from selling my tamers gear at this point is the small sliver of hope that it might EVENTUALLY get buffed. 

 

Edit: Might I add I didn't go for points in this particular game until the last minute where I started wiping groups of people mind you WITH 186 AP

2017-04-19_731422757.JPG

Edited by Konoe

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Posted

Pls Balance Ninja/Kuno -> Skill Animation too long, Dmg too low without 3x Combos (about 20Skills), Almost all classes have iframe or/and front guard. ( currently is Ninja/Kuno in Siege or Nodewar as good as useless. )

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Posted (edited)

Literally what Ginos said.  I don't have a recent screenshot of my tamer RBF but the difference between DK and Tamer for example is night and day. This screenshot was done with a 186 AP DK while in most cases now I struggle to get above 400 points on my when i was 204/214/290. The results are really self evident, since getting the hang of my DK my average score has been over 100 points more then My tamers who has overall way better gear. Now my Ping is probably a factor in this I play in NA and live in italy but the fact I average maybe 250- 300 high estimate on my tamer and 400+ on a DK with 186 AP should really show you the Gap between how strong the classes are. If I had say 210/212/300 on my DK I'd probably average around 700-800 points a game. The only thing that's kept me from selling my tamers gear at this point is the small sliver of hope that it might EVENTUALLY get buffed. 

 

Edit: Might I add I didn't go for points in this particular game until the last minute where I started wiping groups of people mind you WITH 186 AP

2017-04-19_731422757.JPG

i live in italy to iand i dont have high ping might be your provider throdling you internet.. Dk is not that strong when it comecomes to damage as the stay in the back and bombard areas with range attack. My guildmate dk is 220 ap and me being 300 dp and as long as i keep my sa and front guards and inframe in check we have a hard time takimg each other down. I never use points as a reference in rbf to dicktate how good a class is as i go to rbf to test myself agaist 1vX not really caring about points. Range classes and warriors tend to come in for the kill after most the work has been done by others.

Pls Balance Ninja/Kuno -> Skill Animation too long, Dmg too low without 3x Combos (about 20Skills), Almost all classes have iframe or/and front guard. ( currently is Ninja/Kuno in Siege or Nodewar as good as useless. )

..wrong forum buddy.

Edited by Lenerlink

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Posted

What ? Ofc its possible.

Analyze this:
Wizard jumps into bunch of enemies then launch its 100% ultimate killing 4, dies in the proccess. He does this 25 times achieving 100/25 KD
Tamer pickung up lonely wounded targets in the same amount of time will achieve 20/5 KD


So again what is impossible with this scenario ???

Exactly lol. I didn't even take the time to write a reply to him. 

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Posted (edited)

i live in italy to iand i dont have high ping might be your provider throdling you internet.. Dk is not that strong when it comecomes to damage as the stay in the back and bombard areas with range attack. My guildmate dk is 220 ap and me being 300 dp and as long as i keep my sa and front guards and inframe in check we have a hard time takimg each other down. I never use points as a reference in rbf to dicktate how good a class is as i go to rbf to test myself agaist 1vX not really caring about points. Range classes and warriors tend to come in for the kill after most the work has been done by others.

..wrong forum buddy.

DK only isn't high damage if you don't know how to combo someone with it. Seeds of disaster+flow + spiritlegacy + shattering darkness and flow bombardment are -----ing rediculous damage when used in that order. It's literally instant death for anyone under 300 DP. Also most of it's damage also comes from back attacks so that helps ALOT

Edited by Konoe

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Posted

DK only isn't high damage if you don't know how to combo someone with it. Seeds of disaster+flow + spiritlegacy + shattering darkness and flow bombardment are -----ing rediculous damage when used in that order. It's literally instant death for anyone under 300 DP. Also most of it's damage also comes from back attacks so that helps ALOT

...but that can be said about every class tamer full burst is know to take down almost any class in one go.

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Posted

DK got top spot on the chart for a number of reason.

Not enough people knew how to fight it.

It has high damage AoE that knocks people around

It has decent enough escapes to not die if things get hairy.

The chaos of battle helps everyone, those who can use it the the best get the gains.

 

I have killed a lot of them in RBF, but that's using chaos to my advantage.  In open PvP, I didn't figure out their timing and lost 1 fight bad (like BAAAAD...and they were probably 56 with way less AP than necessary lol).

Dueling a guildie i lost like 4 times in a row, they had perfect health.  Right after that we started trading victories until I was getting streaks on them.  DK is strong, and it's different from fighting a witch/wizard, but as soon as you know the attacks are coming and how they'll hit, they aren't that tough.  Just take them seriously.

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Posted (edited)

What ? Ofc its possible.

Analyze this:
Wizard jumps into bunch of enemies then launch its 100% ultimate killing 4, dies in the proccess. He does this 25 times achieving 100/25 KD
Tamer pickung up lonely wounded targets in the same amount of time will achieve 20/5 KD


So again what is impossible with this scenario ???

The data is not character based. K is every instance when a member of one class killed another. D is every instance when a member of one class died to another.
For your scenario to work that situation would have to repeat itself across all Tamers in the game over several weeks. Your numbers are so ridiculous that cannot be the case.

100 kills? To build ultimate you have to damage or be damaged. You think a Wizard could gather 100% 25 times without killing or being killed? Pick a different class for your example. They had the top k/d by a huge margin over all other classes. You deflated their potential to achieve a k/d of 4.

Similarly you gave Tamer some sort of insane flanking ability where we eliminate easy targets before everyone else. Or somehow these targets are so plentiful classes like Maewha have to leave us leftovers. There are so many Sorcs their k/d is lowered by trash players, but there are also so few Sorcs that we have easy access to lonely wounded targets?

Describe k/d of all classes involved in your scenario as tied to the chart.

Edited by Kentigem

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Posted (edited)

The data is not character based. K is every instance when a member of one class killed another. D is every instance when a member of one class died to another.
For your scenario to work that situation would have to repeat itself across all Tamers in the game over several weeks. Your numbers are so ridiculous that cannot be the case.

Describe k/d of all classes involved in your scenario as tied to the chart.

The chart is the entire lifespan of KR so, 1+years.

Statistical anomalies are near impossible on this chart, to anyone who can actually read it.

Favoritism, maybe, but it shows what it shows, some people can't get that.

Edited by Kuu

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Posted

the entire data  chart is a joke especially considering last week bdo received a new patch which nerfed dk,withc,wizard and buffed DP in general which completely changed class tiers around so i don't see this pointless arguing

 

random european guy playing with na monkeys (and doing horrible)

random guy with 0 credibility trolling the forum 24/7 with his joke "logic"

 

fact is, other classes have working sa/iframes cause their abilities have a lot more defensive frames in general and at the same time most other classes do 2 times more damage than tamer. Get an equally geared ranger and see how much damage they do and then go ahead and compare your superarmor's frames and cc reliability (people walking out of allrounder left and right) 

 

also this chart is based on korean monkeys who play the game for 3 years and are still incredibly bad, they literally all go 250 ap 280 stats which is completely pointless cause you get enough damage to kill your enemy in a single combo three times but at the same time you die in half a hit which is completely stupid and illogical. You just need enough damage to 1combo your enemy and rest goes into defense , which is why building full ap like kr/na monkeys is completely stupid. Hybrid/more evasion oriented builds have enough damage to 1combo and at the same time they take a lot less damage by full ap as they are hard countering them so all this by itself also completely swaps the class tiers and kdas and what not 

 

and i dont'; even see how is the korean chart supposed to be favorable to tamers? they're pure dps class and they are 7th or so in the list? that's supposed to be good?

 

and ofcourse, the most important and overlooked factors which your silly statistic doesnt take in consideration is that tamer is "the loli class" which gets a lot of the younger playerbase and they are better at games by default, look at tera and elins and look at any other mmorpg - in general both loli and assassin type/fighter class (such as tamer) draw a lot of nolifers and autistic players just by default because that's how the world works (and this is common sense to anyone who's been on the internet) and then you have the fact that tamer has had problems for a very long while - which means that the lesser dedicated and skilled players gave up in time and only the slightly more skilled/stubborn ones were left playing the class and by this logic its only natural for the average skill of the tamer playerbase to be slightly higher (don't get over your head, weak/mediocre tamers are still bad) 

 

if you have 2 humans who split up and one goes to live in the north where its cold and barren and the other one goes to live in some heavenly land  and they meet in 15 years, it's obvious that the one that went in the north will be a lot tougher (if he survived) because the harsh conditions forced him to adapt and improve or die - this common sense applies for this scenario and the game as well

 

i don't see how pathetic you have to be to take a silly statistic like this and even draw conclusions from it, 

 

so lets see, i can put immense effort in the game and put time and thought into it and make guides etc teach people how to get better at our class and improve the mass (even if by a little) and in general dedicate myself to this and then some ranger/warrior player is gonna derp around and play with his elbows and then in 1 year theyre gonna get us a statistic which shows that our average KDA is better than theirs therefore their class should receive buffs? How inconsiderate and unprofessional and stupid is that exactly? Why the hell did i put effort into performing as good as i can so they can make it even easier/buff my enemies even more? 


things like this need to be considered before you even dream about class balance, because there are a lot of factors. I know for a fact that in EU the tamer playstyle meta is completely different from KR/NA because i had a different playstyle and every other end game tamer i fought started adopting the same playstyle/skill usage and then other tamers saw them and so on and it became a chain reaction so many pvp people in here had a different playstyle than elsewhere

 

I would be genuinely surprised if the KDA chart numbers applies for every single region (like tamer is #7 in EU and in NA and in KR and in RU and whrever else) i bet thats absolutely not the case because (refer to example about heaven land and north land) because things like this matter and different metas and chain reactions happen that influence everything.

 

oh and i'm gonna remind you again, the entire game was reworked last week because the damage values were changed for every single class and i can assure you that DK isn't #1 right now in terms of kda (due to the nerfs) so this "chart" is outdated and pointless and shouldn't be looked at, right now the best classes feel like maehwa and ranger due to how incredibly much damage they do and they take less damage than before cus of the dp buff

 

the only strength tamer has is that you can ani cancel anything with different skills and you can play very fast and reactive but the way this game is coded combined with desync is a hard-counter to reactive play because people that are lagged (or if you're lagged or simply server sending information slow) see you 0.5 sec in the past so if a guy throws a skill at you and you react on time and dodge it but there is lag, he'll see you 0.5 sec in the past(on your screen you're already dodging cause thats client based) and he'll CC you and that's how desync happens so the only strength tamer has is hard countered by circumstance,

other than that, the damage tamer does is much lower than most classes (with equal gear and proper usage of atk modifiers), the defensive frames are super short in comparison to other classes and there are too many inferior and useless techniques (grab is weak(altho easy to use), almost all flow skills are either useless either a scam and dont deserve to be a flow and general lack of skills, stuff like moonlight is unreliable in mass pvp with desync and all kinds of stuff etc so on and so on) 

 

you need someone who understands the game and is objective and fair to look at classes and think and talk about balance, not some outdated easily manipulated and incorrect chart 

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Posted (edited)

irrelevant, I don't think any of the devs play Tamer. We'll never be fixed. By all accounts they are well known for playing witchard/zerk/ranger/warriors.

 

It'll reach the stage where Tamers are so rare (we're already heading that way) that our very rarity will be a great asset. Let the FOTM monkeys continue to swap classes, waste time enchanting 4 different sets of gear, waste time levelling multiple characters, then we can hope that our already strong pre-awakening skillset are buffed by the second awakening.

Edited by WastedJoker

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Posted

irrelevant, I don't think any of the devs play Tamer. We'll never be fixed. By all accounts they are well known for playing witchard/zerk/ranger/warriors.

the only fix tamers need is to make their stuff as reliable as other classes and to make them actually work

 

the damage is lower but you get a lot of other tools to make up for it, and the damage is still high enough that it's not super irrelevant and weak. 

Literally and truly the only real problem tamers have is how you constantly get hit between skills and how unreliable they are and other classes dont have these problems because their superarmors actually work(even with desync other classes are able to chain SA together unlike tamer)

 

and then, because you're screwed over by the game not working - only then - all other problems step forth and turn into a real issue, such as lower damage than others and squishier and less skills and sa and what not. If, if the superarmors /iframes that tamer had worked as good as other classes do then you could stop there.. but because they don't, every other weak point or flaw we have instantly turns into a bigger problem

 

and the worst part is, if you take a tamer skill (like echo pierce or lbp) and you read its description it says "superarmor" and then if you take a ranger skill like breezy blade it also says "superarmor" so then some guy will step forward and say "both classes have super armor because its in the description " then convincing this guy that tamer is "cucked" is hard because he wouldn't believe you if you told him that echo pierce (Lets say has 100 attack frames) only had 70 superarmor frames while ranger attack literally has full 100% sa frames and it almost even feels like it lingers for a tiny bit afterwards so they can chain stuff easier 

 

we'd need someone openminded and objective to main tamer and to do hundreds of hours of pvp and only then he'll be fully and truly aware ... (and im pretty sure the majority of the people posting/reading tamer sections themselves don't have hundreds of hours of pvp / group pvp so what goes for an actual developer..) 

 

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Posted

The chart is the entire lifespan of KR so, 1+years.

Statistical anomalies are near impossible on this chart, to anyone who can actually read it.

Favoritism, maybe, but it shows what it shows, some people can't get that.

Your opening comment is objectively false. The formal way of showing dates in Korea is year/month/day. To account for siege they used year/month/Saturday. This chart goes from the first Saturday in May 2016, to the second Saturday in April 2017. 49 weeks, is not a full year. Moreover the KR servers launched in July 2015. However I still agree with your conclusion. 

49 weeks is 343 days, I don't see how they could maintain a k/r off of lonely wounded targets for that long.

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Posted

Say our super armors get "fixed" and tamer is suddenly OP (I honestly think we would be if we worked the way some people claim we should).  What then?

Fix Musa accuracy, fix Ninja iframe/SA, fix Valk and give them lingering super armor like warrior off block?

There's probably a design reason we have shorter SA, I get the feeling it's intentional.  Granted, they should give us 100% frames on dodges.  I think that's the only thing, though.  Because I'm pretty tired of getting smacked out of the air.

I don't have the same amount of experience, but the more I read the forum, the more I learn from each day of play.  However I also see more and more of the pieces that are discussed here, and that worries me.  When you see it, you can't unsee it, and I want to keep playing this class.

But I also want to adjust my style to compensate for the problems.

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Posted

the entire data chart is a joke...

This chart is evidence. You disagree with the conclusions, but it has enough credibility to warrant discussion.

Everything you say has nothing to back it up. Your posts are unnecessarily long, and incredibly anti-intellectual."Silly statistics," "joke logic", are you Donald Trump?

Remove all the subjective wording in your essay. Say facts when it has been proven publicly. Your post should be unemotional. The amount of feeling or character based appeals you use is unacceptable. We are talking about math. For starters you could actually read the chart and stop repeating the #7 line. We are at #5, use a ruler if you don't believe me.

This is what it would look like if I wrote like you:

  • Tamer is great, and we are just playing it wrong. Anyone who disagrees is stupid.
  • This graph is actually wrong, it ignores when heilang makes the final kill, we should be #3

See how unproductive that is?

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Posted

This chart is evidence.

the chart is wrong because it was made pre-DP buff which reworked the entire game

 

i'd ask if common sense is too hard but considering you're just here to troll based on the stuff you post all over this thread, i guess you're just here to troll some more

 

stop addressing me and stop talking to me until you get some basic comprehension skills.

 

Even if the chart was right, tamer is still one of the lowest and worst DD classes despite everything i wrote about in my post (about evolution and people being forced to get better and harsh conditions weeding out the worse players)  

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Posted

Say our super armors get "fixed" and tamer is suddenly OP (I honestly think we would be if we worked the way some people claim we should).  What then?

Fix Musa accuracy, fix Ninja iframe/SA, fix Valk and give them lingering super armor like warrior off block?

There's probably a design reason we have shorter SA, I get the feeling it's intentional.  Granted, they should give us 100% frames on dodges.  I think that's the only thing, though.  Because I'm pretty tired of getting smacked out of the air.

I don't have the same amount of experience, but the more I read the forum, the more I learn from each day of play.  However I also see more and more of the pieces that are discussed here, and that worries me.  When you see it, you can't unsee it, and I want to keep playing this class.

You can chain WWx2 > LBP> WW x2 for a very long time. If we got 100% frames we lose something to compensate.  I don't understand what is broken about our super armor though.

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Posted

I might be living proof against your evolution statement, irrelevant.

I average about 8/20 in Node Wars, for instance.  Been playing forever.  Am I good or bad based off that figure?  No idea.  Though if we base things off kill/death, then I'd say i drag down the average quite a bit.  :P

You can chain WWx2 > LBP> WW x2 for a very long time. If we got 100% frames we lose something to compensate.  I don't understand what is broken about our super armor though.

You can, but WW isn't perfect protection.  In fact, ever split second between each is another chance for the AoE mess you're escaping from gets to kill you.  Maybe i have really bad lag or something, but LBP doesn't seem to reset quick enough if i'm just doing x2 WW.  I usually need x3, and even then there's a break between the last WW and LBP.

If i'm just doing it wrong, i'll take advice.

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Posted

the chart is wrong because it was made pre-DP buff which reworked the entire game

i'd ask if common sense is too hard but considering you're just here to troll based on the stuff you post all over this thread, i guess you're just here to troll some more

stop addressing me and stop talking to me until you get some basic comprehension skills.

Even if the chart was right, tamer is still one of the lowest and worst DD classes despite everything i wrote about in my post (about evolution and people being forced to get better and harsh conditions weeding out the worse players)  

You can't stop making character attacks and unscientific arguments. Common sense is meaningless when you are talking about math. Stop equating wisdom with intelligence.

If you believe the DP-buff reworked the game, come up with some evidence for that.

Bill Gates could give ever American 500$, do you think it would invalidate all the data in the treasury? I wouldn't know without more information.

 

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Posted (edited)

If you believe the DP-buff reworked the game, come up with some evidence for that.

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/138477-patch-notes-april-12th-2017/

All Classes

  • All character’s DP effectiveness has been increased in PVP mode
    *Edited to clarify which mode has been affected

 

your pathetic trolling has no end

 

 

"  COME UP WITH SOME EVIDENCE "HUE HUE HUE

 

last week they released global dp rework for bdo which everyone that plays the game and does pvp is fully aware of, as it LIKE I STATED IN MY PREVIOUS POST completely shuffled class tiers

(koreans got that same change in thursday which you can find on their patch notes) 

now stop addressing me or talking to me, if you're so ignorant to have your head buried in the sand thats up to you and i dont wanna be involved, if no then start researching things before even posting on the forum 

 

 

Edited by irrelevant

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Posted

I might be living proof against your evolution statement, irrelevant.

I average about 8/20 in Node Wars, for instance.  Been playing forever.  Am I good or bad based off that figure?  No idea.  Though if we base things off kill/death, then I'd say i drag down the average quite a bit.  :P

You can, but WW isn't perfect protection.  In fact, ever split second between each is another chance for the AoE mess you're escaping from gets to kill you.  Maybe i have really bad lag or something, but LBP doesn't seem to reset quick enough if i'm just doing x2 WW.  I usually need x3, and even then there's a break between the last WW and LBP.

If i'm just doing it wrong, i'll take advice.

I know it isn't perfect protection. But imagine if it was? I can use that chain to dodge 40+ times in a row. A Sorc can perfectly sync like 12 dodges.

+5 movement will speed up the animation time of WW. The iframe and  recovery of one dodge is shorter, but the same overtime. Essentially its easier to respond and dodge in other directions. Sometimes you dodge into an aoe that would have been over had you used the slower dodge, but that is a preventable issue with proper awareness. Its great for dodging through people, as now they have to turn around even faster.

 Also a lot of people cancel LBP to early. You have super armor until you stop moving. Use the skill for longer before you cancel into a dodge. Even with +5 movement speed you should be able to sync WWx2 with LBP. If LBP is taking longer than 1.5 seconds to reset switch channels, its a known issue.

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Posted

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/138477-patch-notes-april-12th-2017/

All Classes

  • All character’s DP effectiveness has been increased in PVP mode
    *Edited to clarify which mode has been affected

 

your pathetic trolling has no end

 

 

"  COME UP WITH SOME EVIDENCE "HUE HUE HUE

 

last week they released global dp rework for bdo which everyone that plays the game and does pvp is fully aware of, as it LIKE I STATED IN MY PREVIOUS POST completely shuffled class tiers

(koreans got that same change in thursday which you can find on their patch notes) 

now stop addressing me or talking to me, if you're so ignorant to have your head buried in the sand thats up to you and i dont wanna be involved, if no then start researching things before even posting on the forum 

 

 

I think he's asking for evidence on how it directly affected things (charts and graphs?).  He's asking for actual information that can be taken from the game to show it.  I've noticed some survival increase, but i also recently increased by DP, so it might just be coincidence.

 

 Also a lot of people cancel LBP to early. You have super armor until you stop moving. Use the skill for longer before you cancel into a dodge. Even with +5 movement speed you should be able to sync WWx2 with LBP. If LBP is taking longer than 1.5 seconds to reset switch channels, its a known issue.

This issue was not known to me, thanks!

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Posted (edited)

I think he's asking for evidence on how it directly affected things (charts and graphs?).  He's asking for actual information that can be taken from the game to show it.  I've noticed some survival increase, but i also recently increased by DP, so it might just be coincidence.

This issue was not known to me, thanks!

If by he you mean me then yes. It doesn't have to be charts and graphs but it should be something. We don't know enough to call this a total rework.

If you made dp super effective and general survivability improves it might affect our k/d ratio and it might not. Kills may drop but so could deaths.

If increased effectiveness meant 2% maybe not much would change, maybe it would. The common sense approach doesn't work here.

Edited by Kentigem

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