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Why Karma bombing is a good thing.

114 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I see all of these gankers complaining about karma bombing.. .Since when did the ganker become the victim??.. If karma bombing were not possible, the people who've played longer will always have the upper hand on those who have not. Bascially, the people with the best gear will improve faster than those with less gear.

If you had a game without karma bombing, the later you join the game, the more difficult the game will be for you...In other words, you'd kill the game.

You don't have special rights to grind somewhere and ask everyone else to leave that spot, that area doesn't belong to you.. I find it hilarious that people actually think they can ask someone to leave when they have no more right to grind in that spot than they do. They actually feel like they're being cheated by karma, while they're cheating someone out of grinding.. Errr? What? I'm sorry but, you're inconveniencing them more than they're inconveniencing you.

The karma system is there for a reason, so stop crying when you try to hog a grind; because you're just being selfish.

I've never once asked someone to leave an area because they started to grind there, because i'm not so stupid as to think I have special rights to that area.

Edited by Octia
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Posted

I'm sensing a lot of feelings coming from your post.

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Posted (edited)

I'm sensing a lot of feelings coming from your post.

You'd almost think I was human or something...Truth is, I gank people all the time, I just don't cry about karma when I do; because it is obviously there to stop people grind hogging places indefinitely.

Edited by Octia
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Posted (edited)

blah blah same old story blah blah

I have no issue getting karma bombed. I can't do anything against it. What I can and will do is remember the name and kill the person whenever I see them, preferably by last hit from mobs.

It works pretty damn well.

Edited by Zabraxa

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Posted

No. Just... No

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You don't have special rights to grind somewhere and ask everyone else to leave that spot, that area doesn't belong to you.. I find it hilarious that people actually think they can ask someone to leave when they have no more right to grind in that spot than they do. They actually feel like they're being cheated by karma, while they're cheating someone out of grinding.. Errr? What? I'm sorry but, you're inconveniencing them more than they're inconveniencing you.

So why is it that 9 out of 10 times some asshole comes to the spot i am grinding on and just starts there also?
Why are the 'low geared' as you call them always the victim?

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What is undergeared? how undergeared do you have to be to be undergeared? wheres the line, between undergeared and decent gear and OPAF gear? on what classes? is it subjective to the classes or can we assign a single number to represent them all?

How do we define greifing even altogether? heck even before that, WHO gets to define greifing in this game? and Why?

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Posted (edited)

I have no issue getting karma bombed. I can't do anything against it. What I can and will do is remember the name and kill the person whenever I see them, preferably by last hit from mobs.

It works pretty damn well.

How to not get karma bombed : don't attack anyone.... It is your own fault if you get karma bombed.

No. Just... No

Nice argument.. .. Oh wait..

So why is it that 9 out of 10 times some asshole comes to the spot i am grinding on and just starts there also?Why are the 'low geared' as you call them always the victim?

Because you're not entitled to that spot just because you're grinding there. It is your own sense of entitlement that is making you think the karma system is unfair.

What is undergeared? how undergeared do you have to be to be undergeared? wheres the line, between undergeared and decent gear and OPAF gear? on what classes? is it subjective to the classes or can we assign a single number to represent them all?

How do we define greifing even altogether? heck even before that, WHO gets to define greifing in this game? and Why?

You're dealing with subjectivity; anything can be defined as griefing; just as anything can be defined as good and bad. I'm getting at the reason people think certain things are bad, and showing them that there is an alternative way to look at it. There is none more right than the other, they're merely different ways of approaching  karma bombing.

Honestly, it seem to me people are only thinking of themselves. "This is a hindrance to me, and so i'm the victim" Yet they'll disregard the hindrance they're causing others. If you're against karma bombing, you're basically asking for the ability to bully people out of an area without consequence; which is fine for those who're already geared, but for everyone else it means they can't get the gear they need. without committing significantly more time to the game

Edited by Octia
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Posted (edited)

I see all of these gankers complaining about karma bombing.. .Since when did the ganker become the victim??.. If karma bombing were not possible, the people who've played longer will always have the upper hand on those who have not. Bascially, the people with the best gear will improve faster than those with less gear.

If you had a game without karma bombing, the later you join the game, the more difficult the game will be for you...In other words, you'd kill the game.

You don't have special rights to grind somewhere and ask everyone else to leave that spot, that area doesn't belong to you.. I find it hilarious that people actually think they can ask someone to leave when they have no more right to grind in that spot than they do. They actually feel like they're being cheated by karma, while they're cheating someone out of grinding.. Errr? What? I'm sorry but, you're inconveniencing them more than they're inconveniencing you.

The karma system is there for a reason, so stop crying when you try to hog a grind; because you're just being selfish.

I've never once asked someone to leave an area because they started to grind there, because i'm not so stupid as to think I have special rights to that area.

>If you had a game without karma bombing, the later you join the game, the more difficult the game will be for you...In other words, you'd kill the game.

implying there aren't other places to grind.

implying that all channels  in pirates are filled(you can usually find a empty spot and grind there for a good while).

Also quite funny you are pointing this out because i grinded in pirates shittiest spot for like 1 week hardcore so that i could get enough gear to even 1v1.Gearing in this game to a decent level to be able to pvp in 1v1 ins't hard at all.

>the people who've played longer will always have the upper hand on those who have not

basically bullshit.It basically translates to i have no skill in pvp so therefore i should karma bomb.(before you saying anything let me remind you that i have killed people who are 530 gs combined with nothing more then 439 gs)

>You don't have special rights to grind somewhere and ask everyone else to leave that spot, that area doesn't belong to you

never has happened to me and i grind in pirates a lot.

>The karma system is there for a reason, so stop crying when you try to hog a grind; because you're just being selfish.

The karma system is not there to favour plebs who can't pvp.The karma system now is nothing more then a joke since they removed the xp from dying in pvp lose.

Guildless karma bombers/griefers are the cancer of grinding since you can't do nothing about them apart from swapping to another server.It's pathetic that people do this and this sort of behaviour should not be encourage anywhere.

 

 

 

Edited by Donegoofed
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Posted

Because you're not entitled to that spot just because you're grinding there. It is your own sense of entitlement that is making you think the karma system is unfair. 

This is an open world game with the option of enabling PvP to fight off other players for access to resources and grind spots. Karma bombing is a cheesy af way to circumvent this. Also, you've got it wrong: It's the karma bombers that have a sense of entitlement to access the same resources or grind spots as stronger players. But there's no point repeating this over and over to carebears

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Posted (edited)

>If you had a game without karma bombing, the later you join the game, the more difficult the game will be for you...In other words, you'd kill the game.

implying there aren't other places to grind.

implying that all channels  in pirates are filled(you can usually find a empty spot and grind there for a good while).

Also quite funny you are pointing this out because i grinded in pirates shittiest spot for like 1 week hardcore so that i could get enough gear to even 1v1.Gearing in this game to a decent level to be able to pvp in 1v1 ins't hard at all.

>the people who've played longer will always have the upper hand on those who have not

basically bullshit.It basically translates to i have no skill in pvp so therefore i should karma bomb.(before you saying anything let me remind you that i have killed people who are 530 gs combined with nothing more then 439 gs)

>You don't have special rights to grind somewhere and ask everyone else to leave that spot, that area doesn't belong to you

never has happened to me and i grind in pirates a lot.

>The karma system is there for a reason, so stop crying when you try to hog a grind; because you're just being selfish.

The karma system is not there to favour plebs who can't pvp.The karma system now is nothing more then a joke since they removed the xp from dying in pvp lose.

Guildless karma bombers/griefers are the cancer of grinding since you can't do nothing about them apart from swapping to another server.It's pathetic that people do this and this sort of behaviour should not be encourage anywhere.

 

 

 

Yet those places to grind will yield worse results, meaning it'll take longer overall.. If the results were as good in the alternate grindspots, why are the high geared people not grinding there? I rest my case.

 

You saying "it is easy to get geared" is not only dependent on the luck of your enhancing, but it is also completely based in opinion, and so I could just as easily say "no, it is hard to become geared" and it would equally be as valid; so that line was utterly pointless.

 

Saying "this is bullshit" is not an argument.

 

I was saying people aren't entitled to grind spots, yet people seem to feel justified in getting angry when someone grinds where they're grinding when that other person has just as much a right to grind there as themselves. Also saying "it never happens" is just your individual experience, you don't speak for everyone, so once again, the weight that holds is so small it may as well not even be considered.

 

The pvp in this game is gear based for the most part.. To say "it is there for people who can't pvp" is the same as saying "it is there for people who have worse gear" which is the point i'm making.. I love people who think pvp in this game is skill based.. Yes, assuming you have equal gear, and all classes are balanced perfectly, then it is skill based. Everyone knows MMOs are for people who ARE bad at PVP, because they can use gear to make up for their lack of skill. The point i'm making here is : don't try and be elitist when you're pvping in a gear based MMO.

This is an open world game with the option of enabling PvP to fight off other players for access to resources and grind spots. Karma bombing is a cheesy af way to circumvent this. Also, you've got it wrong: It's the karma bombers that have a sense of entitlement to access the same resources or grind spots as stronger players. But there's no point repeating this over and over to carebears

So what you're saying is : Because people started playing the game earlier, they should be able to have an easy ride. Those who started later should have to struggle? It basically means that potentially worse players get an advantage over better players. How can a karma bomber be entitled when they're grinding somewhere that doesn't' actually belong to anyone? That is impossible. There is no feeling of entitlement there at all, it is just someone choosing to grind somewhere; then the entitled geared person comes and kills them, and claims that they should not be grinding there. THAT is a feeling of entitlement.

Also did I say ganking was bad? No, I merely pointed out that unchecked ganking allows people to just crush those with less gear into the ground without giving them a chance.. You could literally just track someone wherever they go, and lock them out of the game entirely. 

It is funny you think i'm a carebear; i'm pretty ruthless when it comes to ganking, and I never complain about getting ganked, or ganking others; however, I do get annoyed when I see people complaining when they've ganked someone else.

Edited by Octia

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Posted (edited)

Yes, the ressources are avalaible to anyone.

There's no name on mobs.

But they are scarce and finite, so their distribution is a player's fact. Emergent gameplay based on player interaction, with the two sides of the same coin, politics, : negociation or warfare.

The problem is that PvP fights in the open don't provide what they are meant for anymore : a resolution to a conflictual situation over ressources when they happen (because like it or not, they occur and a meant to occur) when negociation has led to a dead end, with clear statutes at the end of said conflict : winner / loser. The karma is the price for unilaterally impose your will in a beligerant way when said conflict occurs outside formally declared ones (node wars, sieges, GvG) and is needed. But it doesn't provide expected results anymore, because conflictual situation can't be evacuated, since the coercitive measures you can take (and pay the due price for it : karma) don't produce effects.

Question :
When a lonely player disrupt a 5 man party, which is very easy to do, who is the most entitled ?

How do you know the gear and level of another player in order to determine if he is "undergeared" or not ? Some people could tell you that they're undergeared because they're not full tet - pen boss gear and BIS accessories

Edited by Capitaine Courage
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Posted

How to not get karma bombed : don't attack anyone.... It is your own fault if you get karma bombed.

As I said. I have no problem getting karma bombed. Roughly 5 out of 10 people leave the spot when I kill them once or twice. The others have to live with the consequences of their actions. I keep screenshots of sad karma bombers at world bosses and such. 

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Posted (edited)

Yes, the ressources are avalaible to anyone.

There's no name on mobs.

But they are scarce and finite, so their distribution is a player's fact. Emergent gameplay based on player interaction, with the two sides of the same coin, politics, : negociation or warfare.

The problem is that PvP fights in the open don't provide what they are meant for anymore : a resolution to a conflictual situation when negociation has led to a dead end, with clear statutes at the end of said conflict : winner / loser. The karma is the price for unilaterally impose your will in a beligerant way when said conflict occurs outside formally declared ones (node wars, sieges, GvG) and is needed. But it doesn't provide expected results anymore, because conflictual situation can't be evacuated, since the coercitive measures you can take (and pay the due price for it : karma) don't produce effects.

Question :
When a lonely player disrupt a 5 man party, which is very easy to do, who is the most entitled ?

How do you know the gear and level of another player in order to determine if he is "undergeared" or not ? Some people could tell you that they're undergeared because they're not full tet - pen boss gear and BIS accessories

"PVP doesn't do what it is meant for" Is just your opinion first of all, and so you can't claim that you get to define the purpose of pvp, because going by how it is currently set up, it is clearly not the intention of the developers to have it be the way you say it is, and so is not "meant" to be that way.

Secondly, allowing endless ganking has problems of it's own. As stated above, it basically allows people to just pick someone they don't like, or just pick someone at random, and endlessly lock them out of the game. What do they do in this situation? They're actively being locked out from progressing any further.. It is a smart move to have the NPCs have their own internal moral compass; not only from an immersive standpoint, but also from the standpoint of people being locked out of the game. Imagine.. Would a town let a known killer wander the streets ?

Who is the most entitled? No one is entitled more than another. It is there for anyone to grind if they merely choose to.

As I said. I have no problem getting karma bombed. Roughly 5 out of 10 people leave the spot when I kill them once or twice. The others have to live with the consequences of their actions. I keep screenshots of sad karma bombers at world bosses and such. 

If you have no problem with karma bombing, you're either indifferent to it, or you support it.

Edited by Octia

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Posted (edited)

"PVP doesn't do what it is meant for" Is just your opinion first of all, and so you can't claim that you get to define the purpose of pvp, because going by how it is currently set up, it is clearly not the intention of the developers to have it be the way you say it is, and so is not "meant" to be that way.

Secondly, allowing endless ganking has problems of it's own. As stated above, it basically allows people to just pick someone they don't like, or just pick someone at random, and endlessly lock them out of the game. What do they do in this situation? They're actively being locked out from progressing any further.. It is a smart move to have the NPCs have their own internal moral compass; not only from an immersive standpoint, but also from the standpoint of people being locked out of the game. Imagine.. Would a town let a known killer wander the streets ?

Who is the most entitled? No one is entitled . It is there for anyone to grind if they merely choose to.

You can't lock people out of content since there is karma, and nobody told that karma should go, it is a needed system, and 36 freaking channels. 36.
What lacks is a counterpart, and not necessarily XP loss, something else can be found.

Yes, people can jump on anyone they want at random. But the game design clearly tells you that it's not a optimal way to play if you don't want to fully embrace the rogue life and specifically dedicate yourself to this gamestyle.

On the other hand, you don't provide solutions to the problem raised ; how do you resolve conflictual situations when they occur and negociation has led to a dead end ? How do you determine statutes of parties in said conflict and provide resolution to avoid scleroscis situations ?
Because like it or not, they occur.

Edited by Capitaine Courage

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Posted (edited)

"PVP doesn't do what it is meant for" Is just your opinion first of all, and so you can't claim that you get to define the purpose of pvp, because going by how it is currently set up, it is clearly not the intention of the developers to have it be the way you say it is, and so is not "meant" to be that way.

Secondly, allowing endless ganking has problems of it's own. As stated above, it basically allows people to just pick someone they don't like, or just pick someone at random, and endlessly lock them out of the game. What do they do in this situation? They're actively being locked out from progressing any further.. It is a smart move to have the NPCs have their own internal moral compass; not only from an immersive standpoint, but also from the standpoint of people being locked out of the game. Imagine.. Would a town let a known killer wander the streets ?

Who is the most entitled? No one is entitled . It is there for anyone to grind if they merely choose to.

 

 You're too weak or too bad to get anywhere on your own, so you defend the only mechanic that provides you a form of "defense" against it.

Thread can be closed. Your argumentation is the same as the countless others before you ;)

 

If you have no problem with karma bombing, you're either indifferent to it, or you support it.

Thought i made myself clear that I don't care about people karma-bombing because I simply kill the karma bomber whenever I see them in the world.

 

Edited by Zabraxa

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Posted (edited)

You can't lock people out of content since there is karma, and nobody told that karma should go, and 36 freaking channels. 36.

Yes, people can jump on anyone they want at random. But the game design clearly tells you that it's not a optimal way to play if you don't want to fully embrace the rogue life and specifically dedicate yourself to this gamestyle.

On the other hand, you don't provide solutions to the problem raised ; how do you resolve conflictual situations when they occur and negociation has led to a dead end ? How do you determine statutes of parties in said conflict and provide resolution ?
Because like it or not, they occur.

I said if ganking was not punished somehow, people could be locked out of content, not that it is currently going on. And yes, currently it is not optimal to do so, but once again, I was stating if ganking went unchecked... I think you've built an accidental straw man through misreading what I said..

The solution is simple : Sharing. The more people who grind in a spot, it becomes an inhibiting factor, meaning that less people will go there to grind because it will get to the point where no one profits because to many people go there. The problem resolves itself. This in turn means people will go elsewhere to grind.

Edited by Octia

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Posted

 You're dealing with subjectivity; anything can be defined as griefing; just as anything can be defined as good and bad. I'm getting at the reason people think certain things are bad,   and showing them that there is an alternative way to look at it. There is none more right than the other, they're merely different ways of approaching  karma bombing.

Honestly, it seem to me people are only thinking of themselves. "This is a hindrance to me, and so i'm the victim" Yet they'll disregard the hindrance they're causing others.

If anything CAN be defined as Greifing, then is EVERYTHING greifing? *with regards to the topic of course*. I see the general philosophy that you are proposing, but how does that translate to a practical application across diverse scenarios that occur on grind spots? How SHOULD they approach 'Karma bombing'?

But someone IS being hindered in either scenario, unless theres a way no one will be hindered, then what standard should there be to justify which one should submit to the hinderance and which one should be the metaphorical victor?

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 You're too weak or too bad to get anywhere on your own, so you defend the only mechanic that provides you a form of "defense" against it.

Thread can be closed. Your argumentation is the same as the countless others before you ;)

 

Thought i made myself clear that I don't care about people karma-bombing because I simply kill the karma bomber whenever I see them in the world.

 

You're trying to attack me instead of the argument. Which means you have no argument.. You're basically admitting defeat.

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Posted

Yet those places to grind will yield worse results, meaning it'll take longer overall.. If the results were as good in the alternate grindspots, why are the high geared people not grinding there? I rest my case.

 

You saying "it is easy to get geared" is not only dependent on the luck of your enhancing, but it is also completely based in opinion, and so I could just as easily say "no, it is hard to become geared" and it would equally be as valid; so that line was utterly pointless.

 

Saying "this is bullshit" is not an argument.

 

I was saying people aren't entitled to grind spots, yet people seem to feel justified in getting angry when someone grinds where they're grinding when that other person has just as much a right to grind there as themselves. Also saying "it never happens" is just your individual experience, you don't speak for everyone, so once again, the weight that holds is so small it may as well not even be considered.

 

The pvp in this game is gear based for the most part.. To say "it is there for people who can't pvp" is the same as saying "it is there for people who have worse gear" which is the point i'm making.. I love people who think pvp in this game is skill based.. Yes, assuming you have equal gear, and all classes are balanced perfectly, then it is skill based. Everyone knows MMOs are for people who ARE bad at PVP, because they can use gear to make up for their lack of skill. The point i'm making here is : don't try and be elitist when you're pvping in a gear based MMO.

So what you're saying is : Because people started playing the game earlier, they should be able to have an easy ride. Those who started later should have to struggle? It basically means that potentially worse players get an advantage over better players. How can a karma bomber be entitled when they're grinding somewhere that doesn't' actually belong to anyone? That is impossible. There is no feeling of entitlement there at all, it is just someone choosing to grind somewhere; then the entitled geared person comes and kills them, and claims that they should not be grinding there. THAT is a feeling of entitlement.

Also did I say ganking was bad? No, I merely pointed out that unchecked ganking allows people to just crush those with less gear into the ground without giving them a chance.. You could literally just track someone wherever they go, and lock them out of the game entirely. 

It is funny you think i'm a carebear; i'm pretty ruthless when it comes to ganking, and I never complain about getting ganked, or ganking others; however, I do get annoyed when I see people complaining when they've ganked someone else.

>Yet those places to grind will yield worse results, meaning it'll take longer overall.. If the results were as good in the alternate grindspots, why are the high geared people not grinding there? I rest my case.

This is a open pvp world game.If the best spots are contested you either fight for them or go grind somewhere else.It doesn't take that long to get tri grunil and tri weapons and start to be able to pvp in these contested zones,most of the times it's actually low geared people in these spots since most of the hardcore people are actually doing life skills(since they are really tired of the grind)or just log in for node war and pvp.You seem to think that casuals will not be able to grind in pirates no matter how hard they try.Let me give you a example a few days ago i encountered this ninja with 124 ap and 200 dp grinding in the mountain spot peacefully,and from personal experience that spot isn't bad at all and barely have had people trying to pk me there.for discussion sake a uncostented jungle spot isn't hard to get at all since there is at least a few guaranteed channels with no one grinding in jungle.

 >The pvp in this game is gear based for the most part

yes for node wars,group pvp,sieges it's mostly about gear and which class you pick.But for 1v1 it gets a bit different;you see with a low ammount of ap 180+ most classes can one shot(i have 178 ap and can almost one shot a zerk with 350 dp).At that point it's mostly about the skill you possess over your class and your match up knowledge..Most of the times you can deal with whoever is trying to kill you at the spot  if you have enough skill.

Anyway what pisses me off mostly about your points is that you are basically saying that we should allow a guy who has never worked for his gear and skill never in his life be able to get the best spots in the game  because he griefed and karma bombed someone.This is not fair because the griefer has no rights in taking the spot since he can't compete for it and despite that he can easily swap channels and avoid all the karma loss and bullshit drama  and find the same spot uncontested.Actually this doesn't apply to only undergeared people this applys to anyone.it's just a cheap way to get a spot without even needing to pvp.i wouldn't mind the karma bombing if there was a xp lose or something on the griefer because at least he would think twice before griefing and taking someone else spot.   

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Posted (edited)

If anything CAN be defined as Greifing, then is EVERYTHING greifing? *with regards to the topic of course*. I see the general philosophy that you are proposing, but how does that translate to a practical application across diverse scenarios that occur on grind spots? How SHOULD they approach 'Karma bombing'?

But someone IS being hindered in either scenario, unless theres a way no one will be hindered, then what standard should there be to justify which one should submit to the hinderance and which one should be the metaphorical victor?

Griefing is subjective, yes. People are almost evenly hindered when grinding in the same spot. The person with worse gear being hindered more so, as they can be killed off repeatedly, and prevented from grinding at all; not only that, they won't be able to kill the mobs as fast, and so the person with better gear can sweep through quicker and take them all.

Again, "hinderance" is subjective too.. Unless you're talking about the objective progress made in the space of time. If we're talking about it like that, then the person with the worse gear is still worse off UNLESS the person with better gear makes the decision to karma bomb themselves through there feelings of entitlement.

Edited by Octia

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You're trying to attack me instead of the argument. Which means you have no argument.. You're basically admitting defeat.

I'm not even arguing with you. You state your opinion I added mine.

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I'm not even arguing with you. You state your opinion I added mine.

It is true that it might be your opinion, but subtextually it was communicated as an attack. Ofcourse only you'll know whether or not it truly was an attack, or just an opinion. Not only that, it was completely based on assumption, and so has no factual basis whatsoever.. Overall a pretty pointless addition .. In my opinion.

>Yet those places to grind will yield worse results, meaning it'll take longer overall.. If the results were as good in the alternate grindspots, why are the high geared people not grinding there? I rest my case.

This is a open pvp world game.If the best spots are contested you either fight for them or go grind somewhere else.It doesn't take that long to get tri grunil and tri weapons and start to be able to pvp in these contested zones,most of the times it's actually low geared people in these spots since most of the hardcore people are actually doing life skills(since they are really tired of the grind)or just log in for node war and pvp.You seem to think that casuals will not be able to grind in pirates no matter how hard they try.Let me give you a example a few days ago i encountered this ninja with 124 ap and 200 dp grinding in the mountain spot peacefully,and from personal experience that spot isn't bad at all and barely have had people trying to pk me there.for discussion sake a uncostented jungle spot isn't hard to get at all since there is at least a few guaranteed channels with no one grinding in jungle.

 >The pvp in this game is gear based for the most part

yes for node wars,group pvp,sieges it's mostly about gear and which class you pick.But for 1v1 it gets a bit different;you see with a low ammount of ap 180+ most classes can one shot(i have 178 ap and can almost one shot a zerk with 350 dp).At that point it's mostly about the skill you possess over your class and your match up knowledge..Most of the times you can deal with whoever is trying to kill you at the spot  if you have enough skill.

Anyway what pisses me off mostly about your points is that you are basically saying that we should allow a guy who has never worked for his gear and skill never in his life be able to get the best spots in the game  because he griefed and karma bombed someone.This is not fair because the griefer has no rights in taking the spot since he can't compete for it and despite that he can easily swap channels and avoid all the karma loss and bullshit drama  and find the same spot uncontested.Actually this doesn't apply to only undergeared people this applys to anyone.it's just a cheap way to get a spot without even needing to pvp.i wouldn't mind the karma bombing if there was a xp lose or something on the griefer because at least he would think twice before griefing and taking someone else spot.   

This is an open world pvp game.. With a karma system. I think people can grind wherever they want, I never disputed that; I was pointing out that without the karma system, that would be significantly more difficult.

There is that entitlement i'm talking about "he has never worked for his gear, and doesn't deserve it" . Why do you think you get to decide who deserves it, and who doesn't? Secondly, did those who played the game before others, those who didn't have to compete for grindspots with lower levels, did they deserve to grind there also? Why should the newer player have to work harder than the people who played before them?

Also, did you give up the best grind spots because you didn't have the best gear when you were low geared/level? You'll probably say you did, but that'd be subject to bias given the argument you're making..

You aren't prevented from pvping in this game; if you want to hog a grind you're free to do so, it just comes at the cost of angering the bdo police. Just because you have better gear, and can kill the other person, doesn't mean you deserve that spot more than them.. Wherever you got this idea is the reason you're so against what i'm pointing out. Better gear gives you the ability to kill others, it doesn't give you the right to claim ownership of a grind spot; they are two different things.

Edited by Octia

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Griefing is subjective, yes. People are almost evenly hindered when grinding in the same spot. The person with worse gear being hindered more so, as they can be killed off repeatedly, and prevented from grinding at all; not only that, they won't be able to kill the mobs as fast, and so the person with better gear can sweep through quicker and take them all.

Again, "hinderance" is subjective too.. Unless you're talking about the objective progress made in the space of time. If we're talking about it like that, then the person with the worse gear is still worse off UNLESS the person with better gear makes the decision to karma bomb themselves through there feelings of entitlement.

the person with worse gear/level gets gear and level much faster too, IE, its a lot easier to get 10 ap at 100 ap than it is to get 1 ap at 200ap. same thing with levels, level 55 kills a few mobs and gets a full percent, level 60 spends 3+ hours of killing 5k+ mobs to get 1 percent, in terms of progression, whichever party 'loses' the confrontation, has had their progression greatly affected. both party's are pretty much equally effected by the other. the difference is their objective situation prior to the altercation *ie. their respective gear and levels* 

which then becomes a question of 'who needs it more?' How do we even define that? To consider that someone who hasnt put in the effort to get the gear and level should get preferential treatment on the best resources available pushing out those who HAVE put in the time an effort to worse resources than they could access before they spent this time and effort. Which then starts the connundrum of, why even put in the time and effort if one will end up disadvantaged by the system for putting in the time and effort.


How do we come to the conclusion that the better leveled/geared person is the one who 'feels entitled' if they start killstealing, and if the lower geared/leveled person does the same, we dont come to that conclusion? In my view in such a situation, they're either both feeling entitled or neither are.

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the person with worse gear/level gets gear and level much faster too, IE, its a lot easier to get 10 ap at 100 ap than it is to get 1 ap at 200ap. same thing with levels, level 55 kills a few mobs and gets a full percent, level 60 spends 3+ hours of killing 5k+ mobs to get 1 percent, in terms of progression, whichever party 'loses' the confrontation, has had their progression greatly affected. both party's are pretty much equally effected by the other. the difference is their objective situation prior to the altercation *ie. their respective gear and levels* 
which then becomes a question of 'who needs it more?' How do we even define that? To consider that someone who hasnt put in the effort to get the gear and level should get preferential treatment on the best resources available pushing out those who HAVE put in the time an effort to worse resources than they could access before they spent this time and effort. Which then starts the connundrum of, why even put in the time and effort if one will end up disadvantaged by the system for putting in the time and effort.


How do we come to the conclusion that the better leveled/geared person is the one who 'feels entitled' if they start killstealing, and if the lower geared/leveled person does the same, we dont come to that conclusion? In my view in such a situation, they're either both feeling entitled or neither are.

Right, it takes the person with worse gear less time to get better gear, and takes the person who already has better gear longer. But you see, the point you're missing : People with worse gear also have to do what the person with better gear does at some point down the line. It is all one continuum. So basically, it still hinders the lower level more because they also have to go through what the higher level has already done.

No one "needs" it more. They need it as much as they think they do. Just because someone has put more time into the game, doesn't mean they get rights over a certain spot in the game. More time in the game means better gear, that is all it means. You can kill things faster, you can kill other people, those are the advantages of gear; and they are pretty huge advantages at that. Being able to kill faster means faster progress also.

Edited by Octia

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