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Why Karma bombing is a good thing.

114 posts in this topic

Posted

This is an open world pvp game.. With a karma system. I think people can grind wherever they want, I never disputed that; I was pointing out that without the karma system, that would be significantly more difficult.

There is that entitlement i'm talking about "he has never worked for his gear, and doesn't deserve it" . Why do you think you get to decide who deserves it, and who doesn't? Secondly, did those who played the game before others, those who didn't have to compete for grindspots with lower levels, did they deserve to grind there also? Why should the newer player have to work harder than the people who played before them?

Also, did you give up the best grind spots because you didn't have the best gear when you were low geared/level? You'll probably say you did, but that'd be subject to bias given the argument you're making..

You aren't prevented from pvping in this game; if you want to hog a grind you're free to do so, it just comes at the cost of angering the bdo police. Just because you have better gear, and can kill the other person, doesn't mean you deserve that spot more than them.. Wherever you got this idea is the reason you're so against what i'm pointing out. Better gear gives you the ability to kill others, it doesn't give you the right to claim ownership of a grind spot; they are two different things.

 If you are referring to the pioneer players of the game, they had a much more hostile environment, much harsher progression curve and actual REVERSAL of progression for the 'loser' of a competitive altercation. They ofcourse had competition with peers and lower geared. Day 2 players and Day 1 players, 2nd week had 1st week players, 4th month had 1st month players, and all of them had each other to compete with, so saying players back then had a free rein over resources is wildly inaccurate. In fact, compared to now, competition back then was much more cut throat.

but i digress, when someone started is irrelevent to this discussion, as two people could have started at the exact same moment and be VASTLY different when they meet in such a situation according to how they played, how much they played within that time frame, assistance and of course luck. All we have is person A with better gear/level vs Person B with worse gear and level. there isnt any other variable that matters in the situation.

Right, it takes the person with worse gear less time to get better gear, and takes the person who already has better gear longer. But you see, the point you're missing : People with worse gear also have to do what the person with better gear does at some point down the line. It is all one continuum. So basically, it still hinders the lower level more because they also have to go through what the higher level has already done.

No one "needs" it more. They need it as much as they think they do. Just because someone has put more time into the game, doesn't mean they get rights over a certain spot in the game. More time in the game means better gear, that is all it means. You can kill things faster, you can kill other people, those are the advantages of gear; and they are pretty huge advantages at that. Being able to kill faster means faster progress also.

Its irrelevent that one person has to go through the experiences that the other has already gone through. And also the arguement of who it hinders 'more' is irrelevent, infact no one gets to decide who is more hindered or less hindered, its all subjective to those experiencing it at that moment. The truth is that both parties are being hindered, Full stop. no more, no less.

Like you said, no one NEEDS the BEST resources MORE, they both just NEED them. So why should the SYSTEM give preferential treatment to EITHER party.  or Arbitratily deciding that the lower leveled and geared person DESERVES them more, forget about needing them.


You can say my point argues that the other spectrum of the arguement where 'I'm lower leveled/geared therefore i DESERVE the best resources the game has to offer' is just as ludicrous and false as the opposite.

Even if we take PK and Karma out of the equasion, or even gear and level for that matter. we simply state that a level 56 150/150/150 ninja and witch come across each other at a grind spot, obviously the witch has better PVE clearance than the ninja due to how their class mechanics work. Even in THIS situation we have one person who has a clear advantage over the other. Not only can the witch PK the ninja IF she chooses to, but she can killsteal all she wants with the ninja struggling to keep up. given your previous reply suggesting that the the higher leveled player 'feels entitled' to the spot because of his advantage, doesnt it apply here too?

Or is it simply that neither 'feel entitled' or 'are entitled' to the spot, There is simply one advantaged player vs a disadvantaged player in PVE *because we're still taking PK out of the equasion' and the SYSTEM has given arbitrary power to one side over the other.

and this is exactly where the entire argument falls apart, sure a lower leveled/geared player could karma greif/killsteal from a better geared individual due to the karma system's inherent unfair design, BUT once the better geared person picks a naturally advantaged PVE class, the situation quickly backfires for the undergeared/leveled individual.

the entire argument also falls apart once you have a better geared individual baiting the lower geared one into killing them untill negative, and then slaughtering them into REVERSING their progression. These two trends are now becoming quite prevelent in the game now that the better geared individuals  are realising that this is what the system will be indefinitely.

How do you propose we stop the lower geared/leveled from being greifed then?

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Posted

Yet those places to grind will yield worse results, meaning it'll take longer overall.. If the results were as good in the alternate grindspots, why are the high geared people not grinding there? I rest my case.

So you don't want a less efficient spot but you want to try to grind on top of someone else making a good spot shit as well? This is what I don't understand about people making this argument. "I should be able to show up and grind anywhere I want even if it -----s someone elses XP/Silver and if they don't like it we should punish them." Then they want to try to bully someone with karma because you're entitled to everything everyone else is?

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It is true that it might be your opinion, but subtextually it was communicated as an attack. Ofcourse only you'll know whether or not it truly was an attack, or just an opinion. Not only that, it was completely based on assumption, and so has no factual basis whatsoever.. Overall a pretty pointless addition .. In my opinion.

This is an open world pvp game.. With a karma system. I think people can grind wherever they want, I never disputed that; I was pointing out that without the karma system, that would be significantly more difficult.

There is that entitlement i'm talking about "he has never worked for his gear, and doesn't deserve it" . Why do you think you get to decide who deserves it, and who doesn't? Secondly, did those who played the game before others, those who didn't have to compete for grindspots with lower levels, did they deserve to grind there also? Why should the newer player have to work harder than the people who played before them?

Also, did you give up the best grind spots because you didn't have the best gear when you were low geared/level? You'll probably say you did, but that'd be subject to bias given the argument you're making..

You aren't prevented from pvping in this game; if you want to hog a grind you're free to do so, it just comes at the cost of angering the bdo police. Just because you have better gear, and can kill the other person, doesn't mean you deserve that spot more than them.. Wherever you got this idea is the reason you're so against what i'm pointing out. Better gear gives you the ability to kill others, it doesn't give you the right to claim ownership of a grind spot; they are two different things.

>There is that entitlement i'm talking about "he has never worked for his gear, and doesn't deserve it" 

It's not entitlement. I am simply not going to give my place to any guy, no matter if he is a scrub or a high geared player just because he wants to have the place.If he wants to have the place he will need to fight for it.

 >Secondly, did those who played the game before others, those who didn't have to compete for grindspots with lower levels, did they deserve to grind there also?

Oh pls what a shitty argument.Most of the hardcore players right now have taken huge breaks or have started later then most(mediah expansion) which puts them in a disadvantage with gear and level.Some of them couldn't compete in sausan so they had to grind in some other place to get gear to be able to compete in whatever was the best spot at the time.Actually even in the release of the game spots were filled with pvp and competition so not like people didn't have to compete for them.You must have started the game quite late and have no idea how competitive spots were at the time.There wasn't enough space for everyone so people had to compete.You are lucky these days that there is always a channel with pirates spot empty and gives the chance for low geared players to grind at the best spots.

Also, did you give up the best grind spots because you didn't have the best gear when you were low geared/level?

no,if i lose the fight i will leave.I am not going to be some try hard scrub and grief someone just because i feel entitled to the spot. 

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Posted (edited)

 If you are referring to the pioneer players of the game, they had a much more hostile environment, much harsher progression curve and actual REVERSAL of progression for the 'loser' of a competitive altercation. They ofcourse had competition with peers and lower geared. Day 2 players and Day 1 players, 2nd week had 1st week players, 4th month had 1st month players, and all of them had each other to compete with, so saying players back then had a free rein over resources is wildly inaccurate. In fact, compared to now, competition back then was much more cut throat.

but i digress, when someone started is irrelevent to this discussion, as two people could have started at the exact same moment and be VASTLY different when they meet in such a situation according to how they played, how much they played within that time frame, assistance and of course luck. All we have is person A with better gear/level vs Person B with worse gear and level. there isnt any other variable that matters in the situation.

 

Its irrelevent that one person has to go through the experiences that the other has already gone through. And also the arguement of who it hinders 'more' is irrelevent, infact no one gets to decide who is more hindered or less hindered, its all subjective to those experiencing it at that moment. The truth is that both parties are being hindered, Full stop. no more, no less.

Like you said, no one NEEDS the BEST resources MORE, they both just NEED them. So why should the SYSTEM give preferential treatment to EITHER party.  or Arbitratily deciding that the lower leveled and geared person DESERVES them more, forget about needing them.


You can say my point argues that the other spectrum of the arguement where 'I'm lower leveled/geared therefore i DESERVE the best resources the game has to offer' is just as ludicrous and false as the opposite.

Even if we take PK and Karma out of the equasion, or even gear and level for that matter. we simply state that a level 56 150/150/150 ninja and witch come across each other at a grind spot, obviously the witch has better PVE clearance than the ninja due to how their class mechanics work. Even in THIS situation we have one person who has a clear advantage over the other. Not only can the witch PK the ninja IF she chooses to, but she can killsteal all she wants with the ninja struggling to keep up. given your previous reply suggesting that the the higher leveled player 'feels entitled' to the spot because of his advantage, doesnt it apply here too?

Or is it simply that neither 'feel entitled' or 'are entitled' to the spot, There is simply one advantaged player vs a disadvantaged player in PVE *because we're still taking PK out of the equasion' and the SYSTEM has given arbitrary power to one side over the other.

and this is exactly where the entire argument falls apart, sure a lower leveled/geared player could karma greif/killsteal from a better geared individual due to the karma system's inherent unfair design, BUT once the better geared person picks a naturally advantaged PVE class, the situation quickly backfires for the undergeared/leveled individual.

the entire argument also falls apart once you have a better geared individual baiting the lower geared one into killing them untill negative, and then slaughtering them into REVERSING their progression. These two trends are now becoming quite prevelent in the game now that the better geared individuals  are realising that this is what the system will be indefinitely.

How do you propose we stop the lower geared/leveled from being greifed then?

You're wrong; when it first started there was less competition for those who put more time in. The difference being the numbers; now there are many people with very good gear, back then everyone was around about the same given how much time was put in. To say it was the same is outright false. And yes, the penalty was slightly worse for death back then. When people started is VERY important to the discussion, the environment was very different at the start to what it is now.. Someone joining the game now, vs someone joining the game a week after launch.. What is the difference? The difference is there will be less people at max level, and they'll have had less time to get the best gear in the game. It is foolish to even consider that it was the same then as it is now.

If you're claiming karma gives preferential treatment, I could say higher stats give preferential treatment, or what level you are gives preferential treatment, or what class you pick.. The list goes on. The reality is, it gives no one preferential treatment, it is just how it works, and nothing more. Just like how having better gear allows you to kill others easier, ganking people repeatedly impacts karma.

The karma system doesn't give lower gear/level people an advantage at all; they still can't kill mobs as fast, and they can be killed easier. Someone with better gear can steal mobs faster, and easier, survive better in the environment. And on top of that, you can only karma bomb yourself; you get the choice of whether karma impacts you or not.

Let me say this again : No one is more entitled to the grind than anyone else, that is the point I'm making here. I'm saying just because you have better gear, doesn't mean you have some moral high ground. The only reason you're saying low geared people should be gankable without consequence, is because you feel that because your gear is better than theirs, you're entitled to the grind. How do you justify that? Oh, you can beat them in pvp? That just means you can beat them in pvp, it doesn't mean you get to keep the grind to yourself. 

They put the karma system in the game for a reason. It is intentional that the game has a karma system. They don't want people grind hogging.

I'll agree that defending yourself from an attacker shouldn't impact karma, that is the one fault of the karma system in my opinion.

The karma system is only "inherently unfair" in your opinion; it is not objectively unfair.

 

>There is that entitlement i'm talking about "he has never worked for his gear, and doesn't deserve it" 

It's not entitlement. I am simply not going to give my place to any guy, no matter if he is a scrub or a high geared player just because he wants to have the place.If he wants to have the place he will need to fight for it.

 >Secondly, did those who played the game before others, those who didn't have to compete for grindspots with lower levels, did they deserve to grind there also?

Oh pls what a shitty argument.Most of the hardcore players right now have taken huge breaks or have started later then most(mediah expansion) which puts them in a disadvantage with gear and level.Some of them couldn't compete in sausan so they had to grind in some other place to get gear to be able to compete in whatever was the best spot at the time.Actually even in the release of the game spots were filled with pvp and competition so not like people didn't have to compete for them.You must have started the game quite late and have no idea how competitive spots were at the time.There wasn't enough space for everyone so people had to compete.You are lucky these days that there is always a channel with pirates spot empty and gives the chance for low geared players to grind at the best spots.

Also, did you give up the best grind spots because you didn't have the best gear when you were low geared/level?

no,if i lose the fight i will leave.I am not going to be some try hard scrub and grief someone just because i feel entitled to the spot. 

You've imposed a restriction on yourself, and you think everyone else should follow because you think it is the right thing to do? That is called an opinion, of which yours is no better than another.

It is only the right thing to do if you think it is. Someone could just say "It is the wrong thing to do" and it is equally valid.

"Most players started blah blah blah.." Unless you've kept track of every other player on BDO, you don't know that, and so it is completely in the realms of assumption. The facts are : People who started earlier, and played consistently, are already at a huge advantage to a newer player; and the older the game gets the harder it will get for newer players as the number of people with high-end gear will increase over time. Making it so high gear people can just dominate grind spots will kill the game for a lot of new people.

Edited by Octia

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Posted

You're wrong; when it first started there was less competition for those who put more time in. The difference being the numbers; now there are many people with very good gear, back then everyone was around about the same given how much time was put in. To say it was the same is outright false. And yes, the penalty was slightly worse for death back then. When people started is VERY important to the discussion, the environment was very different at the start to what it is now.. Someone joining the game now, vs someone joining the game a week after launch.. What is the difference? The difference is there will be less people at max level, and they'll have had less time to get the best gear in the game. It is foolish to even consider that it was the same then as it is now.

If you're claiming karma gives preferential treatment, I could say higher stats give preferential treatment, or what level you are gives preferential treatment, or what class you pick.. The list goes on. The reality is, it gives no one preferential treatment, it is just how it works, and nothing more. Just like how having better gear allows you to kill others easier, ganking people repeatedly impacts karma.

The karma system doesn't give lower gear/level people an advantage at all; they still can't kill mobs as fast, and they can be killed easier. Someone with better gear can steal mobs faster, and easier, survive better in the environment. And on top of that, you can only karma bomb yourself; you get the choice of whether karma impacts you or not.

Let me say this again : No one is more entitled to the grind than anyone else, that is the point I'm making here. I'm saying just because you have better gear, doesn't mean you have some moral high ground. The only reason you're saying low geared people should be gankable without consequence, is because you feel that because your gear is better than theirs, you're entitled to the grind. How do you justify that? Oh, you can beat them in pvp? That just means you can beat them in pvp, it doesn't mean you get to keep the grind to yourself. 

They put the karma system in the game for a reason. It is intentional that the game has a karma system. They don't want people grind hogging.

I'll agree that defending yourself from an attacker shouldn't impact karma, that is the one fault of the karma system in my opinion.

The karma system is only "inherently unfair" in your opinion; it is not objectively unfair.

 

You've imposed a restriction on yourself, and you think everyone else should follow because you think it is the right thing to do? That is called an opinion, of which yours is no better than another.

It is only the right thing to do if you think it is. Someone could just say "It is the wrong thing to do" and it is equally valid.

"Most players started blah blah blah.." Unless you've kept track of every other player on BDO, you don't know that, and so it is completely in the realms of assumption. The facts are : People who started earlier, and played consistently, are already at a huge advantage to a newer player; and the older the game gets the harder it will get for newer players as the number of people with high-end gear will increase over time. Making it so high gear people can just dominate grind spots will kill the game for a lot of new people.

You are so out of sync with the entire hardcore community.Do you even pvp?I know many of these players and i can tell you that most of the hardcore community doesn't even grind that much because they have gear.Whenever i go to pirates i see more casuals then actual hardcore players.You talk about hardcore players running the entire spots when in reality that isn't even the case.It's not even assuming,go talk to most hardcore players.For ----- sake one of the most respected warriors in eu took like a 4-6 months break to play in kr lol.I started bdo right when it released so i know a lot of the hardcore community,and believe me when i say i am not assuming.But sure you are the pro here who thinks taking spots by being a annoying little karma bomber/griefer should be allowed.Keep on talking about a nonexistent issue.


   issuestar

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Posted (edited)

You are so out of sync with the entire hardcore community.Do you even pvp?I know many of these players and i can tell you that most of the hardcore community doesn't even grind that much because they have gear.Whenever i go to pirates i see more casuals then actual hardcore players.You talk about hardcore players running the entire spots when in reality that isn't even the case.It's not even assuming,go talk to most hardcore players.For ----- sake one of the most respected warriors in eu took like a 4-6 months break to play in kr lol.I started bdo right when it released so i know a lot of the hardcore community,and believe me when i say i am not assuming.But sure you are the pro here who thinks taking spots by being a annoying little karma bomber/griefer should be allowed.Keep on talking about a nonexistent issue.


   issuestar

Once again you come to me with opinions, and your individual experience. You can't speak for others, and so what you just said proves nothing, you just seem to be saying what supports your belief despite not having a view of the entire picture; also known as bias.

Just answer me this :

Why do you think you deserve a grind spot because you've played more, and/or have better gear?

You don't deserve to grind somewhere more than another just because you can kill them. You want to be greedy and take a grindspot without losing karma? Just kill the mobs faster than the low gear can..Use your advantage to your advantage; instead of trying to make the game more difficult progressively for newer players.

Oh, and one other thing I've seen people crying about is "stealing mobs"..Different topic, but it ties in.. This concept that a mob that has not been killed yet somehow belongs to you, this delusion of ownership.. The mob belongs to whoever gets the exp and loot after it drops, simple as that; you cannot steal a mob. It is the same thing with the people who believe they have rights to a grind spot; a delusion of ownership.

Edited by Octia
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Posted

Once again you come to me with opinions, and your individual experience. You can't speak for others, and so what you just said proves nothing, you just seem to be saying what supports your belief despite not having a view of the entire picture; also known as bias.

Just answer me this :

Why do you think you deserve a grind spot because you've played more, and/or have better gear?

You don't deserve to grind somewhere more than another just because you can kill them. You want to be greedy and take a grindspot without losing karma? Just kill the mobs faster than the low gear can..Use your advantage to your advantage; instead of trying to make the game more difficult progressively for newer players.

>Just kill the mobs faster than the low gear can.

You are still taking mobs from the low geared guy stopping him from grinding.what's your point?Also even if you outgear the guy he could possibly be faster then you because of his class.

>Why do you think you deserve a grind spot because you've played more, and/or have better gear?

If spots are contested you will need to fight for them.This is a pvp game where people want to get better gear in the fastest amount of time.If you win the duel by pking them you deserve the spot because of something called competition.You don't see goalkeepers in football letting their opponents who are bad at football score a goal or two.What i am finding funny about this discussion is that you are bringing up a issue that barely happens in bdo.Spots are not as contested as much as they were back in release  and only on weekends you actually see people pking each other for spots(talking about pirates at least).you are bringing up a issue that is completely irrelevant in the current state of bdo and encouraging a behavior that simply annoys whoever is grinding at the spot,when that issue can be often solved by simply switching channels. 

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Posted (edited)

>Just kill the mobs faster than the low gear can.

You are still taking mobs from the low geared guy stopping him from grinding.what's your point?Also even if you outgear the guy he could possibly be faster then you because of his class.

>Why do you think you deserve a grind spot because you've played more, and/or have better gear?

If spots are contested you will need to fight for them.This is a pvp game where people want to get better gear in the fastest amount of time.If you win the duel by pking them you deserve the spot because of something called competition.You don't see goalkeepers in football letting their opponents who are bad at football score a goal or two.What i am finding funny about this discussion is that you are bringing up a issue that barely happens in bdo.Spots are not as contested as much as they were back in release  and only on weekends you actually see people pking each other for spots(talking about pirates at least).you are bringing up a issue that is completely irrelevant in the current state of bdo and encouraging a behavior that simply annoys whoever is grinding at the spot,when that issue can be often solved by simply switching channels. 

The mobs do not belong to them. They belong to whoever gets the exp/loot after they drop.

Once again you're saying "the game is this" when the game isn't that; if it were that, there would be no karma system.

Also, do sports have referees? They do. Then karma is your ingame referee.

Lets use your football example another way : In football do they give one team a headstart on the other? No? Then your football argument is irrelevant. The players are not necessarily worse, they merely haven't been playing the whole time the opponent has.

If the issue were irrelevant, i'd have never made the topic. What possible reason would I have to make this topic if I did not see people crying over what is a logical implementation because of some false sense of entitlement/ownership.

Edited by Octia
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Posted

The mobs do not belong to them. They belong to whoever gets the exp/loot after they drop.

Once again you're saying "the game is this" when the game isn't that; if it were that, there would be no karma system.

Also, do sports have referees? They do. Then karma is your ingame referee.

Lets use your football example another way : In football do they give one team a headstart on the other? No? Then your football argument is irrelevant. The players are not necessarily worse, they merely haven't been playing the whole time the opponent has.

If the issue were irrelevant, i'd have never made the topic. What possible reason would I have to make this topic if I did not see people crying over what is a logical implementation because of some false sense of entitlement/ownership.

You keep ignoring my points.The issue is irrelevant because it barely happens and can be easily solved by swapping channels.What you are saying to me is if you are grinding at a spot for 5 hours and someone comes and start taking your mobs you should simply just stand there or switch to another channel.The karma system was implemented so that people don't just go yolo and start griefing people and annoying half the community, it isn't there to just let people get a free spot by annoying the other person while the guy could simply swap to another channel(since for examples pirates isn't that populated) and get the same spot easy.You are basically defending a group of people who are doing nothing more then annoying people.the issue doesn't even need to apply to low geared people it can be applied to anyone who wants to grief and karma bomb.Pls stop defending a group of people who do griefing and karma bombing to get a spot for free by annoying and harassing someone instead of just swapping channels and find the same spot uncontested.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with some of the points presented here including OP's. I do believe the karma system is here for a good reason, until people started abusing it. 

It's not always easy to tackle a long standing structure/game mechanic and to advocate for a change.

What I found most important when competing for a grind spot is not about the perks/mechanics that were put in place, but rather having some form of understanding from both sides, realizing what the common goal was and share instead. But just as not everyone is about sharing or compromising in real life, so are the players in the game.

You will always get people at two ends of the spectrum, one that takes a group of friends and forces everyone out of a grind spot for convenience and to maximize their gain, or one that kept annoying people at a grind spot because they could not get it. 

Personally I always send an invite first to whoever joined my rotation. Most of the players would accept and if they had the intention to push me out in the first place, I would proceed to change my location or channel.

Play smart and play happy basically. It's almost impossible to get fairness nor please both sides in these kind of situations, nor are there rules for what people can or cannot do.

Edited by Cheyr
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Posted (edited)

The solution is simple : Sharing. The more people who grind in a spot, it becomes an inhibiting factor, meaning that less people will go there to grind because it will get to the point where no one profits because to many people go there. The problem resolves itself. This in turn means people will go elsewhere to grind.

This is a questionable situation seeing as how some spots are easily soloable.. meaning that just 1 person stepping in on the area will disrupt the gain of exp and cause a decrease of income.. The mobs in this game are entirely too easy to think that we can all share, people are typically forced to grind in the same few areas for any substantial gains in exp to make it efficient and time worthy so when someone infringes on this situation and your exp begins to decrease, you bet their going to get upset. You can say that no one has a right to the spot, but if you are fishing in a small hole and someone else comes in and drops their rod in and begins catching all the fish leaving you with hardly anything at all, you may feel a certain way, now when there is a solution (Kill said person to get them to leave so you can maintain efficient exp) and that solution no longer acts as a deturant well... it becomes frustrating since there are typically other areas said person could grind on the same mobs but that person knows you have the most efficient grind rotation and wants it.. they (in my opinion) should flag and attempt to take it, not just roll in and screw the exp gains for the both of you. If the person who was there first dies, he comes back for redemption (Flagging himself to reclaim his spot) if he dies again well there's no point, if he wins and maintains it by a couple kills well... move along, either way one of them should leave as any more interaction is a waste of time on both of their parts and a massive waste of karma. If people entered the situation respectfully (Not karma bombing their way to victory) it wouldn't be an issue.

Sometimes people just need to learn when to take the L and move along.

Edited by Kendrox
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Full and utter Darwinism: survival of the fittest. That is the answer. If you aren't fit to take the optimal grind-spot that you want, either get better so you can take it, or find a channel where it is free and you don't have to fight. Both sides b****ing about this is becoming tiresome.

"But it takes a lot of gear, RNG, and some might even say skill, to get to where I can just insert myself in a spot and stay there."

Yes. It does. And that dude who is mercilessly slaughtering you over and over again took the time to get to where they are at. That is why they feel "entitled" to the top of the food chain -- they put in their time and worked for it (as much as you can consider a video game "work").

Suggesting that someone could be stopped from progressing in this game entirely by someone shoving you out of a grind-spot is absurdly hyperbolic. If you were telling the truth, the bigger inconvenience is for the person of a higher level, as they need far more XP/hour to make any gains, and Elric's =/= Pirates for XP. Lower leveled players have far wider available options for XP gains, which is why it is so agitating to higher leveled players, as they are legitimately more limited in their options if they want to maintain any kind of momentum in their leveling.

The way this agitation is expressed is in a callous disregard for the lower leveled players. Lower leveled players, in turn, lash out as they feel deprived of the optimal gains they really want, and feel powerless to retaliate except by one means; we all know what it is. It is abused because they feel it is their only weapon. It is a tantrum when faced with a desire that cannot be fulfilled as they want it to be. The great part is, those statements are true of BOTH SIDES. One uses Karma Bombing, the other uses repetitive PKing -- both tactics designed to beat the other into submission in a sense, and gain/retain what it is they want. The first to break, loses.

Either accept the system as it stands (with all it's flaws and limitations), or find a way to convince the developer's to revamp the Karma system (good luck). This topic has ceased to be a discussion, it's just rabble rousing self gratification for weebs.

I say this, by the way, not as a level 61 Wizard who played from launch. I say this as someone who, having played a little bit at launch, abandoned the game, and came back for the release of Ninja (arguably one of the worse classes). I have proceeded to gear/level up from the same shitty state that everyone else did, and I did not Karma bomb. I am semi-RPing (backstory and motive) an evil character, and so I am gear/leveling up to go red in the desert, and have dedicated some time to trying to get to PvP competitive stats/skill. I am currently 46% through level 58, 189/183/250, and sitting on a shade over 1,000 SP. I work full time with occasional overtime, and I have a steady girlfriend and family to maintain relationships with, and yet I still find time to make progress. If you care about making progress, you will. RNG is only a barrier for so long, as everything in this game is eventual, and I've leveled up from nothing having to fight the same people at the same grind spots you all have. What I mean to say by all of this, is that very few, if anyone, here has a significant enough reason why they could not do the same aside from maybe lack of time, to which I would retort:

"Then why do you need the best grind-spot, casual? Play casually."

This is a game, but much like in the real world, your actions have consequences. Be it the salty tears of Karma Bombers having made no progress (when they likely could have made some elsewhere), or the sudden realization that your PvP exploits have left you unable to AFK process until you grind out that -600,000 Karma; you decide how you react to people's actions, and nobody else can be blamed but yourselves for the things that occur.

The only objective things this argument involves are: Karma is lost upon killing someone who did not agree to combat (formally), and if you have low enough Karma, your life is made very inconvenient in order to combat rampant killing. That is all. Everything else is opinion on how the system should be used, which is entirely subjective and the main reason why this debate continues -- nobody is right, nobody is wrong, everything is just, like, your opinions maaaaan.

For realios though, this is a game, and far too many people take it way too seriously. Nobody owes you anything, and nobody owns anything other than what they worked for. Everything is available to those who can take it for themselves. Now go out and make your own way, however you see fit.

As for me: F*** anyone who tries to constrain me in their worldview, I'll play as I Daum well please. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

/pointless-opinion-nobody-asked-for-from-a-player-you've-never-heard-from

Peace.

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Posted (edited)

i think bringing back the exp loss would be a bit to hard in case of that ppl who randomly like to gank ppl. A good conclusion in my eyes would be to let ppl lose there gems when they get pked or pk outside of a gvg.

Because the super new ppl doesnt care mich about gems so they dont get punished to hard bir those typical karmabomver around 450-500 gearscore will think twice of they risk to lose a an offhand gem of 25m to just karma bomb someone.

And if a war is decleared no one need to lose gems cause u dont spend karma to save ur spot. Actually we have the problem that u have to spend your karma for nothing exept saving a few mins till the bomber comes back from repairs

I think thats a good balanced way to make pvp death a bit more scary again without giving to much advantages to super geared players.

Edited by Eiwei

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I see all of these gankers complaining about karma bombing.. .Since when did the ganker become the victim??.. If karma bombing were not possible, the people who've played longer will always have the upper hand on those who have not. Bascially, the people with the best gear will improve faster than those with less gear.

If you had a game without karma bombing, the later you join the game, the more difficult the game will be for you...In other words, you'd kill the game.

You don't have special rights to grind somewhere and ask everyone else to leave that spot, that area doesn't belong to you.. I find it hilarious that people actually think they can ask someone to leave when they have no more right to grind in that spot than they do. They actually feel like they're being cheated by karma, while they're cheating someone out of grinding.. Errr? What? I'm sorry but, you're inconveniencing them more than they're inconveniencing you.

The karma system is there for a reason, so stop crying when you try to hog a grind; because you're just being selfish.

I've never once asked someone to leave an area because they started to grind there, because i'm not so stupid as to think I have special rights to that area.

its not about being a victim, but more of what kind of person/player you are, a pride thing. If there is absolutely no chance that you can best the guy 1v1 then accept defeat and move on. If you insist on comming back then at least declare war. But in the end theres no right or wrong, we all are different and the system allows both plays.

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Dormammu simply never wants to bargain.

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You're wrong; when it first started there was less competition for those who put more time in. The difference being the numbers; now there are many people with very good gear, back then everyone was around about the same given how much time was put in. To say it was the same is outright false. And yes, the penalty was slightly worse for death back then. When people started is VERY important to the discussion, the environment was very different at the start to what it is now.. Someone joining the game now, vs someone joining the game a week after launch.. What is the difference? The difference is there will be less people at max level, and they'll have had less time to get the best gear in the game. It is foolish to even consider that it was the same then as it is now.

If you're claiming karma gives preferential treatment, I could say higher stats give preferential treatment, or what level you are gives preferential treatment, or what class you pick.. The list goes on. The reality is, it gives no one preferential treatment, it is just how it works, and nothing more. Just like how having better gear allows you to kill others easier, ganking people repeatedly impacts karma.

The karma system doesn't give lower gear/level people an advantage at all; they still can't kill mobs as fast, and they can be killed easier. Someone with better gear can steal mobs faster, and easier, survive better in the environment. And on top of that, you can only karma bomb yourself; you get the choice of whether karma impacts you or not.

Let me say this again : No one is more entitled to the grind than anyone else, that is the point I'm making here. I'm saying just because you have better gear, doesn't mean you have some moral high ground. The only reason you're saying low geared people should be gankable without consequence, is because you feel that because your gear is better than theirs, you're entitled to the grind. How do you justify that? Oh, you can beat them in pvp? That just means you can beat them in pvp, it doesn't mean you get to keep the grind to yourself. 

They put the karma system in the game for a reason. It is intentional that the game has a karma system. They don't want people grind hogging.

I'll agree that defending yourself from an attacker shouldn't impact karma, that is the one fault of the karma system in my opinion.

The karma system is only "inherently unfair" in your opinion; it is not objectively unfair.

There were people back then with good gear, and bad gear, its irrelevent how many or how less there were given that the situation being discussed happened constantly AND the results had MUCH more weight. sure you might feel losing 1% xp now at sub 58 is 'a slight invonvenience' , but back in the day that 1% took a 100 times longer to at 50. so really, saying that 'they had it better cuz less competition' is utterly false. Competition is roughly the same, even less so due to the low cost of a loss.

But once again, when one started to play HAS NO RELEVENCE to the situation, you are stuck in a loop of 'Its the oldies vs Newbies', the situation only has one person with a natural advantage versus a person with a natural disadvantage. gear/leve/class what ever, the disadvantaged couldve been playing since Beta and be the lower geared player because of a bad RNG streak, different playstyle, reroll and a host of other reasons. There is just one variable that matters here, that is the CURRENT gear/level status of the player. everything is irrelevent. simply because the advantaged player could be a new player, an old player, a better geared class, a better grinding class w/e.

Im not claiming that the Current system gives special treatment, in fact ill talk about the current system later, Im talking about WHY SHOULD A SYSTEM GIVE SPECIAL TREATMENT TO ANYONE. Whether they are better geared or lower geared. And HOW DO YOU THINK THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS GOOD AND JUSTIFIED?

Onto the current karma system itself, You just said that the karma System DOES NOT protect lower levels and geared players? then what is its purpose of existing? Its supposed to limit ganking at grind spots when in affect its created a system where its even worse for the disadvantaged individual than if the system didnt exist OR was fair to both parties. So in effect its quite useless. Then WHY would you argue against a Fairer Karma system OR dont even propose a fairer Game change than what we currently have instead of repeating the same record on 'no one deserves shit, its everyones, even though its not enough for everyone'

I mean you contradict yourself when you say 'They put the karma system in the game for a reason. It is intentional that the game has a karma system. They don't want people grind hogging.' and then you admit 'Someone with better gear can steal mobs faster, and easier, survive better in the environment.'
so in effect you are AGREEING that DESPITE THE KARMA SYSTEM that you insist is in place to prevent grind hogging, Advantaged people are STILL hogging grind spots pretty easily. Quite simply said the advantaged person still wins. Wo why not CHange SOMETHING to make things fairer?

'The karma system is only "inherently unfair" in your opinion; it is not objectively unfair.' but then again you admit that its STILL unfair to the disadvantaged person.

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Just basic ego issues there, if you cannot prevail, leave.

Because if you do not, well... take your pills and enjoy the ride, or try a duel but don't expect ppl to be honest about it.

(Grief can go on even if you win)

The problem comes from "common senses standards" here.

 

its not about being a victim, but more of what kind of person/player you are, a pride thing. If there is absolutely no chance that you can best the guy 1v1 then accept defeat and move on. If you insist on comming back then at least declare war. But in the end theres no right or wrong, we all are different and the system allows both plays.

Yeah i agree, but sometimes i get very angry and i buy a lot of elion's blessing so i can grief once and for all until the nice guy is gone. Just being a douche here, but at least i don't hide myself by saying that people should share (for what there is to share tho...), they won't ever anyway.

Always the same, git gud or get rekt, but don't cry. We often forget that roles can be reversed.

 

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It's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing.

It's not even a thing at all. You can't throw bombs around containing negative karma. There is literally NO way someone could make me go negative karma if I didn't want to.

If you want a spot for yourself - be prepared to go negative karma, that's the game mechanic. Just stop whining already.

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Posted (edited)

You keep ignoring my points.The issue is irrelevant because it barely happens and can be easily solved by swapping channels.What you are saying to me is if you are grinding at a spot for 5 hours and someone comes and start taking your mobs you should simply just stand there or switch to another channel.The karma system was implemented so that people don't just go yolo and start griefing people and annoying half the community, it isn't there to just let people get a free spot by annoying the other person while the guy could simply swap to another channel(since for examples pirates isn't that populated) and get the same spot easy.You are basically defending a group of people who are doing nothing more then annoying people.the issue doesn't even need to apply to low geared people it can be applied to anyone who wants to grief and karma bomb.Pls stop defending a group of people who do griefing and karma bombing to get a spot for free by annoying and harassing someone instead of just swapping channels and find the same spot uncontested.

I've tackled this point several times; you're saying "it barely happens" however, you can only speak for yourself. It may have barely happened around you, but that doesn't mean it barely happens. I could equally say "it happens a lot" and it'd hold just as much validity.

This is a questionable situation seeing as how some spots are easily soloable.. meaning that just 1 person stepping in on the area will disrupt the gain of exp and cause a decrease of income.. The mobs in this game are entirely too easy to think that we can all share, people are typically forced to grind in the same few areas for any substantial gains in exp to make it efficient and time worthy so when someone infringes on this situation and your exp begins to decrease, you bet their going to get upset. You can say that no one has a right to the spot, but if you are fishing in a small hole and someone else comes in and drops their rod in and begins catching all the fish leaving you with hardly anything at all, you may feel a certain way, now when there is a solution (Kill said person to get them to leave so you can maintain efficient exp) and that solution no longer acts as a deturant well... it becomes frustrating since there are typically other areas said person could grind on the same mobs but that person knows you have the most efficient grind rotation and wants it.. they (in my opinion) should flag and attempt to take it, not just roll in and screw the exp gains for the both of you. If the person who was there first dies, he comes back for redemption (Flagging himself to reclaim his spot) if he dies again well there's no point, if he wins and maintains it by a couple kills well... move along, either way one of them should leave as any more interaction is a waste of time on both of their parts and a massive waste of karma. If people entered the situation respectfully (Not karma bombing their way to victory) it wouldn't be an issue.

Sometimes people just need to learn when to take the L and move along.

For some reason you're saying there needs to be a solution for when too many people grind one spot. This is only a problem for the impatient and greedy. It is clear they want you to share the mobs from the very design of the karma system.

It is a non-issue, that is to say, it is only a problem if you feel you're entitled to the mobs because you can kill another player.

Also, this problem of too many people grinding in one spot resolves itself. If too many people grind in one spot, it become beneficial for less to grind there. What happens then? People move to different locations. If people were one diemensional beings that were unable to make logical decisions, they might all stand there, and each person gets a mob; but it is much more likely they'll move elsewhere to make their profits.

There were people back then with good gear, and bad gear, its irrelevent how many or how less there were given that the situation being discussed happened constantly AND the results had MUCH more weight. sure you might feel losing 1% xp now at sub 58 is 'a slight invonvenience' , but back in the day that 1% took a 100 times longer to at 50. so really, saying that 'they had it better cuz less competition' is utterly false. Competition is roughly the same, even less so due to the low cost of a loss.
But once again, when one started to play HAS NO RELEVENCE to the situation, you are stuck in a loop of 'Its the oldies vs Newbies', the situation only has one person with a natural advantage versus a person with a natural disadvantage. gear/leve/class what ever, the disadvantaged couldve been playing since Beta and be the lower geared player because of a bad RNG streak, different playstyle, reroll and a host of other reasons. There is just one variable that matters here, that is the CURRENT gear/level status of the player. everything is irrelevent. simply because the advantaged player could be a new player, an old player, a better geared class, a better grinding class w/e.

Im not claiming that the Current system gives special treatment, in fact ill talk about the current system later, Im talking about WHY SHOULD A SYSTEM GIVE SPECIAL TREATMENT TO ANYONE. Whether they are better geared or lower geared. And HOW DO YOU THINK THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS GOOD AND JUSTIFIED?

Onto the current karma system itself, You just said that the karma System DOES NOT protect lower levels and geared players? then what is its purpose of existing? Its supposed to limit ganking at grind spots when in affect its created a system where its even worse for the disadvantaged individual than if the system didnt exist OR was fair to both parties. So in effect its quite useless. Then WHY would you argue against a Fairer Karma system OR dont even propose a fairer Game change than what we currently have instead of repeating the same record on 'no one deserves shit, its everyones, even though its not enough for everyone'

I mean you contradict yourself when you say 'They put the karma system in the game for a reason. It is intentional that the game has a karma system. They don't want people grind hogging.' and then you admit 'Someone with better gear can steal mobs faster, and easier, survive better in the environment.'
so in effect you are AGREEING that DESPITE THE KARMA SYSTEM that you insist is in place to prevent grind hogging, Advantaged people are STILL hogging grind spots pretty easily. Quite simply said the advantaged person still wins. Wo why not CHange SOMETHING to make things fairer?

'The karma system is only "inherently unfair" in your opinion; it is not objectively unfair.' but then again you admit that its STILL unfair to the disadvantaged person.

Competition is not roughly the same at all. Everyone is leading different lives, with different time constraints; that in turn is going to lead to some getting to the endgame sooner than others; they don't all arrive at the same time. The point is, those who do get there first, will have no problems at all; and because of the game being newer there will be less people with good gear, meaning less competition. So it is not even roughly the same at all. The sooner you get to the endgame in most MMOs, the greater advantage you'll have over a newer player (assuming you play consistently); why? Because the quantity of well geared players goes up over time; meaning direct competition for new players becomes progressively more difficult.

It is only "special treatment" if you think it is. It is actually just another part of the system, like gear, stats, loot. "Gear gives special treatment because it makes you stronger!" See? You can say that about anything, the problem being that you feel one is unfair, and one is fair, and that is just YOUR OPINION.

I believe the karma system is there to prevent grind hogging, and to prevent people endlessly ganking someone so they can't participate in the game. However, only the people who chose to implement it know why they did it, and I can't speak for them; i'm merely talking about the results of its implementation.

My point with saying "they can steal mobs faster" is basically pointing out that those with better gear can still make better gains, and are still at an advantage. It is still disadvantageous to the lower level, but they can still scape by; which is better than being utterly shut out from the area entirely. One is a huge disadvantage, the other is average size disadvantage. One means they get nothing, the the means they can still get something. So I was not contradicting myself, but merely reinforcing my point.

There is no "fair and unfair", there is what people can do, and what they can't do. Just because someone is at a disadvantage doesn't make it "unfair", it just means they're at a disadvantage. It is the degree to which they're disadvantaged we're talking about here.

 

 

It's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing.

It's not even a thing at all. You can't throw bombs around containing negative karma. There is literally NO way someone could make me go negative karma if I didn't want to.

If you want a spot for yourself - be prepared to go negative karma, that's the game mechanic. Just stop whining already.

Saying it was a "good" thing was just the bait to get people into the thread honestly. The real argument being presented is that people seem to think they're entitled.

Edited by Octia

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I see all of these gankers complaining about karma bombing.. .Since when did the ganker become the victim??.. If karma bombing were not possible, the people who've played longer will always have the upper hand on those who have not. Bascially, the people with the best gear will improve faster than those with less gear.

If you had a game without karma bombing, the later you join the game, the more difficult the game will be for you...In other words, you'd kill the game.

You don't have special rights to grind somewhere and ask everyone else to leave that spot, that area doesn't belong to you.. I find it hilarious that people actually think they can ask someone to leave when they have no more right to grind in that spot than they do. They actually feel like they're being cheated by karma, while they're cheating someone out of grinding.. Errr? What? I'm sorry but, you're inconveniencing them more than they're inconveniencing you.

The karma system is there for a reason, so stop crying when you try to hog a grind; because you're just being selfish.

I've never once asked someone to leave an area because they started to grind there, because i'm not so stupid as to think I have special rights to that area.

No. If you disturb someone else's grinding on purpose and then are killed for it, the courteous thing to do would be switch channels. But most of you jerks just keep coming back over and over so you get a person negative so you get your way.

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Posted (edited)

For some reason you're saying there needs to be a solution for when too many people grind one spot. This is only a problem for the impatient and greedy. It is clear they want you to share the mobs from the very design of the karma system.

It is a non-issue, that is to say, it is only a problem if you feel you're entitled to the mobs because you can kill another player.

Also, this problem of too many people grinding in one spot resolves itself. If too many people grind in one spot, it become beneficial for less to grind there. What happens then? People move to different locations. If people were one diemensional beings that were unable to make logical decisions, they might all stand there, and each person gets a mob; but it is much more likely they'll move elsewhere to make their profits.

I completely disagree, the sheer number of hours required to grind out a level, the abysmally low exp gain per mob where you're gaining 1% per hour solo at a main rotaion tells me we were not intended to share seeing as how just one more person can take that 1%/hr all the way down to .25%/hr and I"m sorry...  no one is going to be ok with that call it selfish, selfish, or not.. if we were meant to share it would  be easy to do so, instead the exp loss for "sharing" is so great that there is absolutely no reason to attempt to do so except in few areas. It's not to say that you shouldn't try for a party of say 2 but when you begin to have 3 people and 4 comes in and you're already getting garbage exp what are you supposed to do? "Sure buddy come on in I was only planning on grinding for 3 hours today for 3% but I'm perfectly fine with grinding 3 hours for 1% now that you're here!".. I think not.

 

Also I don't believe the design of the karma system is to say that we all need to share at all.. since this is your opinion for their intentions I believe the karma system is there to keep people from just walking up and killing people all over the world over and over, then spawn camping them until they quit the game.. this can happen over grind disputes but I feel it is aimed at a wider scope of the world because without the karma system no one could leave towns.

 

Edited by Kendrox
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Here is how to fix karma bombing BS!

1) Non-guild played do not effect karma penalty or only effect it by -1 karma per kill (that will prevent people from dropping guild to karma bomb and inforce more people to join a guild)

2) Guild thats cannot be declared on do not effect karma penalty or only effect it by -1 karma per kill (this will force guilds to become more active in node wars and prevent karma bombing)

3) Make players who die (without a guild or in a guild that cannot be declared on) spawn back in the closest town when they die so it makes them run much farther when they die to prevent continues karma bombing.

I believe all 3 of the above should be implemented YESTERDAY! Its ridiculous that they have not updated/reworked the BS karma system in this game. Stop releasing classes and start improving the core game play of this game because PVP is meaningless and boring in this game, yes even with node wars this game is still meaningless and boring as far as PVP goes. Start working on it or your game is going to die by the end of this year no matter how many classes you release! Hype trains only last a few days when classes get released if anyone hasn't noticed! 

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Simpler solution. Allow personal dec's on individuals. That way if someone wants to be a jerk, you can dec on them and kill them over and over again as your heart desires without losing karma. This would stop griefing entirely because most of the karma bombers would be afraid to do such things going forward.

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I dont mind getting pkd if it is at a contested spot.. however if I'm at a non contested spot just grinding and minding my business and some prick comes to pk even if I was there without even asking to leave I'll karmabomb, works pretty good...  mostly I usually am friendly if others are friendly and will avoid problems.. but if they behave like pricks I'll make there grind suffer until they change channel

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200.webp#49

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