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Dande vs Blue


86 posts in this topic

Posted

 

So we're just going to ignore the extra human damage the Blue gets per enchant level? Or, are you claiming that even at TRI/TET the blue fails to get at least 3 extra human damage worth of ap to be at least slightly better(in PvP)?

 

From my personal tests, at 197 awakening AP base with TRI dande vs. 189 awakening AP with TRI ultimate, I found about a 3.7% damage increase in favour of the dande.

The test was done with all of the target's armour removed to guarantee a hit, so accuracy was not a concern.

Although it was a small sample size, the variation in damage was negligible (a range of 1-3 damage off the average base of around 1200) and the expected damage increase from pure AP alone, removing the human AP, is 4.23%. 

Therefore, I saw a small difference with a 6-hit skill (Elven Rage) compared to the AP difference meaning the human AP was a small but non-negligible damage increase.

However, there's no point to any of these claims of personal tests because all of us could be lying. I just believe what my own data showed me.

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Posted

Useless to compare only 2 pieces of equipment. Kzarka enables you to get +5 attack/cast speed without using any crystal slot. Some builds, especially PvP builds, don't want all those crit stats, this is impossible with Liverto.

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Posted

here i pulled up the research for you...  since this is something everyone should know..

human damage vs Ultimate AP scaling..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHuG5ujhjE4&t=2s

and here is different kinds of AP scaling.. (this is really fooked!).. http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/128316-awakening-ap-mainhand-ap-universal-ap-testing/

.... PS.. just incase it's not clear...

The reason Ultimate blue awakening Weapon is better at same enchant level as Dandelion is because the Human damage on the Blue awakening weapons scales unspecific to combat stance (AKA it works for Main hand attacks also) because of this that +7 human damage scales closer to Ultimate AP as described in Zephans thread.

Math time..

8 Awakened AP x 0.7 = 5.6 effective AP

7 human Damage x 0.84 = 5.88 Effective AP

 

So if you are gearing for PvP only go for the blue awakening weapon.. it's ALOT cheaper also

Your first video litteraly says that dandelion does more damage against the 55 zerker ._." and I quote "We can quickly see, AP is increasing in a higher rate than human damage would". 

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Posted

Since somebody quoted me in this thread, I figured I'd give my 2 cents on the topic.

I think no one can argue that Dande is better than Blue in both PvE and PvP, although it is arguable how much Dande is better than blue in PvP.

We know that Human Damage =/= AP. I see people doing calculations like this, but as far as I know, Human Damage isn't scaled with skill damage, but is added at the end of the equation. This is hard to conclude but anecdotal evidence indicates that in terms of PvP the difference is fairly minor.

Now the main point I always like to present in these kind of discussions is that, although Dande is better, the amount of money that it costs over the blue awakening weapon isn't necessarily cost-effective. Your total AP doesn't just come from your weapon, and for most players we aren't at a position with our silver where we can afford to have optimized gear in every slot. For an easy comparison, someone mentioned 1.4B vs. 700 mill. For the difference of that price you can make a tri-crescent, 2 x tri-RCE or 2 x tri-Witches, or tri-Serap. All of which will enhance your attack power beyond the amount that can be provided by the Dande over Blue Awakening Weapon

I have no doubt in my mind that Dande is better than Blue Awakening Weapon, but people tend to forget the opportunity cost associated with picking one option or the other. Therefore, I always recommend to new players so stick with the Blue one while using their available resources to improve their gear in other slots. You always have the option to sell your tri-Blue Awakening Weapon later once you acquire your Dande, so there really isn't any long-term harm. 

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Posted

Yellow > Blue thats 'all bud

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Posted (edited)

i just drop this vid here..maybe it helps

Personally i think its all RNG..even the dmg...first KD.. STUN wins :D

Edited by Mashiny

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Posted

I mean the real question is, why would they make an item 100million and a boss drop worse than a blue item which is 90million cheaper, and can get from tons of boss drops or the quest line....?

Baffling....

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Posted

I mean the real question is, why would they make an item 100million and a boss drop worse than a blue item which is 90million cheaper, and can get from tons of boss drops or the quest line....?

Baffling....

oh to reward ppl actually thinking twice and testing stuff arround everything instead of following lazy metas. or why they would hide so many stats in a modern MMO!?

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Posted

212+7= 219 human ap isnt a real thing. You cant come on the forums and demand others to find data for you. thats not how it works. 

He didn't demand for anyone to "Find" data for him, he's asking for people that already have the knowledge on hand and have tested it, not asking for people to dig through the forum for him.

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Posted

Your first video litteraly says that dandelion does more damage against the 55 zerker ._." and I quote "We can quickly see, AP is increasing in a higher rate than human damage would". 

yes but you arn't understanding the whole picture. Refering to zephan work, Universal AP scales better than Human damage but the question in this thread is Dandelion vs Blue awakening weapon and since the AP in the awakening weapon scales only 70% compared to Universal AP you can deduce that human Damage in this one example scales better than the awakened weapon ap.

It's crazy but this is PA's system right now, im not trying to make things weird or confusing.  1 ap from awakened weapon DOES NOT equal 1 ap from accesssories.

Since somebody quoted me in this thread, I figured I'd give my 2 cents on the topic.

I think no one can argue that Dande is better than Blue in both PvE and PvP, although it is arguable how much Dande is better than blue in PvP.

We know that Human Damage =/= AP. I see people doing calculations like this, but as far as I know, Human Damage isn't scaled with skill damage, but is added at the end of the equation. This is hard to conclude but anecdotal evidence indicates that in terms of PvP the difference is fairly minor.

Now the main point I always like to present in these kind of discussions is that, although Dande is better, the amount of money that it costs over the blue awakening weapon isn't necessarily cost-effective. Your total AP doesn't just come from your weapon, and for most players we aren't at a position with our silver where we can afford to have optimized gear in every slot. For an easy comparison, someone mentioned 1.4B vs. 700 mill. For the difference of that price you can make a tri-crescent, 2 x tri-RCE or 2 x tri-Witches, or tri-Serap. All of which will enhance your attack power beyond the amount that can be provided by the Dande over Blue Awakening Weapon

I have no doubt in my mind that Dande is better than Blue Awakening Weapon, but people tend to forget the opportunity cost associated with picking one option or the other. Therefore, I always recommend to new players so stick with the Blue one while using their available resources to improve their gear in other slots. You always have the option to sell your tri-Blue Awakening Weapon later once you acquire your Dande, so there really isn't any long-term harm. 

yes it does scale with skill damage, shown in video, also shown in other threads on the topic of Human damage. The other things you said are spot on though.

I mean the real question is, why would they make an item 100million and a boss drop worse than a blue item which is 90million cheaper, and can get from tons of boss drops or the quest line....?

Baffling....

Even crazier than is why does 1 ap NOT equal 1 ap..  

you would think that 1 ap from awakening weapon qould equal 1 ap from an accessory but it does.. 

He didn't demand for anyone to "Find" data for him, he's asking for people that already have the knowledge on hand and have tested it, not asking for people to dig through the forum for him.

Correct.. Thank you for keeping this on track. People get triggered when what they think is challenged.

Im personally triggered because i much rather people be informed rather than continue to spread misinformation. 

Are all of you in this thread misunderstanding the AP scaling data?

 

The reason he states "70% awakening damage" is because he's reducing the ratio of awakening weapon AP compared to accessory AP.

Mainhand AP transfers at a rate of 43%, awakening weapon AP transfers at a rate of 100%, so accessories and gems transfer at a rate of 143%.

100%/143% = 70%

To make it a nice ratio, that makes 30% mainhand + 70% awakening + 100% accessories & etc.

The SAME RATIO is 43% mainhand + 100% awakening + 143% accessories & etc.

 

It's not that complicated. 8 awakening AP is still 8 AP. 7 human damage is 5.88 effective awakening AP according to those tests.

Dandelion is better in both PvP and PvE.

Also, Dandelion does not have ANY hidden stats. Stop with that nonsense.

Yes thank you for understanding the AP scaling..You got it..

However the +7 human damage on the blue awakening weapon does not suffer the 70% adjustment for being an awakening weapon instead it is applied universally like as if it was an accessory. Hence As per biohacks video showing the scaling for human damage being less than universal AP but Higher than Awakened Weapon AP with a bit of math we conclude than for PVP only the blue awakened weapon is infact better than dandelion at the same enchant level and Obviously FAR MORE cost effective. As an added bonus the +7 Human damage being universal it will also benefit your NON-awakened mainhand combat stance.

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Posted

 

However the +7 human damage on the blue awakening weapon does not suffer the 70% adjustment for being an awakening weapon instead it is applied universally like as if it was an accessory. Hence As per biohacks video showing the scaling for human damage being less than universal AP but Higher than Awakened Weapon AP with a bit of math we conclude than for PVP only the blue awakened weapon is infact better than dandelion at the same enchant level and Obviously FAR MORE cost effective. As an added bonus the +7 Human damage being universal it will also benefit your NON-awakened mainhand combat stance.

Wasn't he testing the damage of each weapon in the video and found that the Dandelion did more damage to the berserker? Did I hear wrong?

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Posted

Pretty sure nothing beats a PEN Dande tho 9_9

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Posted (edited)

"1 ap NOT equal 1 ap"

yea..

Edited by Spartakatz

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Posted

He didn't demand for anyone to "Find" data for him, he's asking for people that already have the knowledge on hand and have tested it, not asking for people to dig through the forum for him.

My comment was clearly an exaggeration to highlight the point he was asking others to do work for him. This question has been asked 90001 times, and finding information on it is easy rather than starting age old arguments for no reason.

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Posted (edited)

yes but you arn't understanding the whole picture. Refering to zephan work, Universal AP scales better than Human damage but the question in this thread is Dandelion vs Blue awakening weapon and since the AP in the awakening weapon scales only 70% compared to Universal AP you can deduce that human Damage in this one example scales better than the awakened weapon ap.

It's crazy but this is PA's system right now, im not trying to make things weird or confusing.  1 ap from awakened weapon DOES NOT equal 1 ap from accesssories.

yes it does scale with skill damage, shown in video, also shown in other threads on the topic of Human damage. The other things you said are spot on though.

Even crazier than is why does 1 ap NOT equal 1 ap..  

you would think that 1 ap from awakening weapon qould equal 1 ap from an accessory but it does.. 

Correct.. Thank you for keeping this on track. People get triggered when what they think is challenged.

Im personally triggered because i much rather people be informed rather than continue to spread misinformation. 

Yes thank you for understanding the AP scaling..You got it..

However the +7 human damage on the blue awakening weapon does not suffer the 70% adjustment for being an awakening weapon instead it is applied universally like as if it was an accessory. Hence As per biohacks video showing the scaling for human damage being less than universal AP but Higher than Awakened Weapon AP with a bit of math we conclude than for PVP only the blue awakened weapon is infact better than dandelion at the same enchant level and Obviously FAR MORE cost effective. As an added bonus the +7 Human damage being universal it will also benefit your NON-awakened mainhand combat stance.

I think you're misunderstanding claire wrong, the awakening ap does transfer over as 100% Since she literally says it's 100% awakening ap and 43% mainhand ap but 100% is more of a way to sum up the entire total of the "universal ap" scaling, so 1 awakening ap is still 1 ap, there is no 70% adjustment they're stating 70% as a way to show why it's 143% the real combine total but it's easier to state it being 100% instead as its easier to understand.

 

At least that's how I look at it, I may be wrong but hey Im still one shotting everyone that's not a zerker so I dont care either way.

Edited by Sensei

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Posted

you guys are really crazy with percentages.

now we're already to "awakening is just 70%, so is LESS", opposed to "main hand damage adding to awakening".

with ZERO information about real damage. everything here with ZERO tests, zero numbers, only "some dude made a video and felt like it was more"

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Posted

well how would you specify relative weight of different kinds of AP in this environment then?

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Posted (edited)

Are all of you in this thread misunderstanding the AP scaling data?

 

The reason he states "70% awakening damage" is because he's reducing the ratio of awakening weapon AP compared to accessory AP.

Mainhand AP transfers at a rate of 43%, awakening weapon AP transfers at a rate of 100%, so accessories and gems transfer at a rate of 143%.

100%/143% = 70%

To make it a nice ratio, that makes 30% mainhand + 70% awakening + 100% accessories & etc.

The SAME RATIO is 43% mainhand + 100% awakening + 143% accessories & etc.

 

It's not that complicated. 8 awakening AP is still 8 AP. 7 human damage is 5.88 effective awakening AP according to those tests.

Dandelion is better in both PvP and PvE.

Also, Dandelion does not have ANY hidden stats. Stop with that nonsense.

thats sounds to me the best calculation so far, byside i find the research from Zephan isn't quite correct as well i dont trust pll they tell me accuracy is useless. but also is the human damage from Yuria better for the awakening damage than bare non-awak AP.

but i dont believe in 143% from jewelry or secondhand. its more like 50% mainhand (only mainhanditem) 100% awakening and 100% jewelry.
but indeed is human damage hidden and also it gets stronger on enchant. but who knows the rates? Dande have a higher rate on the Ap enchant as you compare TET Item, but untill you dont have reached TET, Dande isn't much stronger.

Edited by Wollbert

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Posted

Since she literally says it's 100% awakening ap and 43% mainhand ap

I think you guys should go back to basic math, and stop using those numbers and divide, multiply and add like you want.

Please link at least ONE test where you can clearly see that mainhand AP adds 43%.... I can assure you that number is completely pulled out of the ass. Rumors and rough tests showed 50%.

Now 100% + 50% = 150%, is the same ratio as 66% and 33%, I guess that's where the 70% (around 66) comes from.

You guys are argueing, and is not even clear what 100% means for you.

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Posted

I think you guys should go back to basic math, and stop using those numbers and divide, multiply and add like you want.

Please link at least ONE test where you can clearly see that mainhand AP adds 43%.... I can assure you that number is completely pulled out of the ass. Rumors and rough tests showed 50%.

Now 100% + 50% = 150%, is the same ratio as 66% and 33%, I guess that's where the 70% (around 66) comes from.

You guys are argueing, and is not even clear what 100% means for you.

Im not arguing though and you literally just regurgitated what I just said so you agree with me then?

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Posted

Im not arguing though and you literally just regurgitated what I just said so you agree with me then?

I guess. Just wanted to point out again that people are often confusing percentages, the 43% thing now was the craziest I've seen so far :)

 

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Posted

I guess. Just wanted to point out again that people are often confusing percentages, the 43% thing now was the craziest I've seen so far :)

 

I mean I think we all know the 70% and 30% was all used as a way to represent ratios, and that they're not ACTUALLY 70% and 30% is the part I feel people are confused at.

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Posted

here i pulled up the research for you...  since this is something everyone should know..

human damage vs Ultimate AP scaling..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHuG5ujhjE4&t=2s

and here is different kinds of AP scaling.. (this is really fooked!).. http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/128316-awakening-ap-mainhand-ap-universal-ap-testing/

.... PS.. just incase it's not clear...

The reason Ultimate blue awakening Weapon is better at same enchant level as Dandelion is because the Human damage on the Blue awakening weapons scales unspecific to combat stance (AKA it works for Main hand attacks also) because of this that +7 human damage scales closer to Ultimate AP as described in Zephans thread.

Math time..

8 Awakened AP x 0.7 = 5.6 effective AP

7 human Damage x 0.84 = 5.88 Effective AP

 

So if you are gearing for PvP only go for the blue awakening weapon.. it's ALOT cheaper also

I watched that video and I think you got your awakened/Human damage modifiers mixed up which invalidates your entire post. Or did I miss something?

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Posted

I mean I think we all know the 70% and 30% was all used as a way to represent ratios, and that they're not ACTUALLY 70% and 30% is the part I feel people are confused at.

Actually it could actually be anything, because the real damage depends on the damage formula of which the skill multipliers are a part of (duh) and awakening and regular weapons use different skills with no overlap. So you can have 3/7 or 43/100 or even 358/835 if you really want. Finding the actual relation between 1 mainhand AP and 1 awk AP is easy though, one just had to use both regular and awakened skill on a target, record damage and scale by the skill multipliers. To my knowledge, there is no data of this sort collected and presented by anyone currently though, but this doesn't matter because this information is largely unimportant. Also each skill has a PVP damage reduction that could be different so this complicates things further.

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Posted

Thank you all for your comments. I think I am more confused now :D

It seems that I will buy a blue TET as it is obviously better than TRI dande and I will buy/enhance my TET dande one day.

I wish you all get your TET Dandes soon ^^

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