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@devs [PVE]: Damage Normalization or Gear AP Bug?

208 posts in this topic

Posted

58 Witch using Equilibrium Break and auto attack (RMB)

 

224 AP (full gear w/ kzarka, dandelion, nouver) = 100% trash, 75% bigger guys ... trash = ~10% w/ RMB

157 AP (0 accessories w/ nouver) = 100% trash, 75% bigger guys ... trash = ~10% w/ RMB

143 AP (0 accessories w/ kutum) = 100% trash, 75% bigger guys ... trash = ~10% w/ RMB

118 AP (0 accessories/no offhand) = 80% trash, 60% bigger guys ... trash = ~5% w/ RMB

 

171 AP (no earrings/no offhand) = 80% trash, 60% bigger guys ... trash = ~5% w/ RMB

193 AP (no offhand) = 80% trash, 60% bigger guys ... trash = ~5%

* nouver/kutum are both gemmed the same way with 2x BSC

 

I'm going to test this theory more tomorrow with different classes/abilities and gear levels. at the time I have no junk staff to swap to, wanted to test without Kzarka, but won't permit awakening skills without main hand equipped.

 

I'm under the impression, AP matters to a certain level or scales poorly in PVE. accuracy and hidden bonuses only one WEAPONS effect PVE damage.

 

with no accessories of any sort, but 3 weapons equipped, I did the same as when I had over 75 more AP, not just close, but literally the same amount. Will test at pirates/etc and see with 0 accessories and 1 hour, if I get the same amount of bandanas (would be effect to test kills/hour based on typical loot?).

however removing kutum or nouver, I notice a difference immediately, but swapping them for each other, I see no difference. May as well stack DP to 390 and AP to 150, just be sure to use 3x yellow boss weapons :).

 

 

 

 

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Posted

Are you saying that the Devs stated what AP stands for or is it your half-ass confident answer?

Use some logic and apply what AP is/might stand for for this problem according to the thread's OP. Ding ding?

The game was out in Korea for a while before it came here, and AP has always meant Attack Power.  If you translate the Korean word for AP in KR BDO it means Attack Power. Even things that just say +Attack like Jarettes means AP Attack Power.

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Posted

I've tried it in Cardry... 190 AP vs 128 AP and 144 AP (with x2RCE)

The difference is HUGE, I don't what are you guys killing but try with tough mobs not sausans/pirates. Also 2 other friends tested it in Pila Ku/Sulfur and they notice a huge difference, one of them was streaming and it was noticeable.

I tried it at cadry with 28 AP gap and there was no difference in dmg.

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Posted

I was surprised by this stupid strategy... Can they hire a little bit more smarter coder?

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Posted

Time to stack DP boys

 

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Posted

I tried it at cadry with 28 AP gap and there was no difference in dmg.

What is the level of your toon?  If you are 60/59 28 AP at cadry is not going to be noticeable.  Where 57/58, you will see a difference.

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Posted

This is pretty awesome for things like this. PNG format only or I would have run your shots through it ( they are JPG atm ). 

OR here is my Health Bar Ruler, I cropped your originals for better comparison. Damage1.thumb.png.fe980d92aa8d5c54ca554dDamage2.thumb.png.7587b6f823f36c399e6906BDO_Health_Ruler.thumb.png.92fb59f92191b

 

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Posted

What is the level of your toon?  If you are 60/59 28 AP at cadry is not going to be noticeable.  Where 57/58, you will see a difference.

lvl 56 they were shades of red

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Posted

Test it out on mobs of a comparable level to you, then we'll see. they may have done something to lower level mobs to try and get us out of there.

'we wont nerf top classes, but buff everyone else. Yet we will most certainly not buff higher level mobs, we'll just nerf your damage to lower level mobs LUL'

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Posted (edited)

I was surprised by this stupid strategy... Can they hire a little bit more smarter coder?

Actually giving dmg cap to lower level locations will push overgeared players into higher ones... They just have to tweak it, that income even with cap aint still higher than valnecians without it...

Surprisingly it aint that bad of an idea... They wont inflate silver more by giving valencia 2 times its current income or destroy the best locations for newbies... Now they just have to tweak it correctly...

Edited by RoakOriginal
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Posted

Test it out on mobs of a comparable level to you, then we'll see. they may have done something to lower level mobs to try and get us out of there.

'we wont nerf top classes, but buff everyone else. Yet we will most certainly not buff higher level mobs, we'll just nerf your damage to lower level mobs LUL'

That would actually be pretty funny, and the players would definitely deserve it. 

MV5BMTQ3MTM3NjI1N15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwOTYx

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Posted

Did my own test. Lvl58 Witch against lvl59 enemy (Lava Searcher).

  • 211 / 198 AP: 33.6% average damage
  • 168 / 155 AP: 27.1% average damage
  • 125 / 111 AP: 17.8% average damage

AP is definitely doing its job in my case. As some people are speculating, maybe they've added a damage cap to lower level enemies. This might be an attempt to make Sausans and Pirates less lucrative for people with really good gear and encourage those people to go to higher level grind spots instead.

 

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Posted

I can confirm , vs low level mobs like manes when i am level 57 i can not 1 shot the white big manes. I saw this a week ago. I also added allot of buffs and it seems capped

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Posted (edited)

I can confirm , vs low level mobs like manes when i am level 57 i can not 1 shot the white big manes. I saw this a week ago. I also added allot of buffs and it seems capped

I wouldn't say it's capped. I kept hitting manes with different AP for a few minutes (so no scientific test or using scanning tool, just for my own sake). I saw a very slight increase in dmg after I added gear, but it was just that, very slight.

All pictures are from a lvl 59 sorc using the awak ability judgement (100 % crit). The substitute weapons were a +0 krea amulet and +0 green awak wep. I currently have 58 AP from my accessories.

From my own testing, it seems that there's no reason for anyone to keep grinding manes after having reached a little over 100 ap.

comparison.png

EDIT: I don't think that I have the gear to test this at more difficult valencian mobs (since I imagine their "cap" is higher). Would be interesting to see though at around what ap that your ap stops to matter at cre/pila ku.

Edited by dersten

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Posted (edited)

now thats really interesting... when i tested Kutum vs Nouver at manes with around 200 AP (this was 1-2 months ago) there was definitely some difference between the offhands, so either this is new or it only affects normal AP and not hidden stats or crit dmg modifiers, because those things definitely made a difference back then.

Edited by Alexiel

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Posted

After reading everything without having tested anything myself I came to the conclusion that what is happening is as some have already said, each mob in game have a dmg cap since the last patch, that means that if for example 100 AP is enough to reach that cap then everything above that is literally wasted while farming on a spot were just 100 AP is enough, so if your toon have 250 AP won't make any difference & your farming speed will be exactly the same with everyone else who have at least 100 AP, so farming speed between a newbie with green gear that have just 100 AP & veterans with 200+ AP will be exactly the same in some farming spots from now on as it seem, if that's what happening we would like to have an official confirmation from a GM plz.

I agree with your conclusion and think they normalized /capped the damage output after certain AP.  Its really unfortunate tbh, because no MMO should ever squander the player's long term progression and feeling of advancements regardless of mob level.

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Posted

So there are people talking about wierd things in PvE happening, with their highly upgraded Awakening Weapon doing not much more then some unupgraded green one.

Some say that there is cap on AP at around 100.

Some say AP doesn't matter anymore.

Some say everything is fine and people just have no idea how the game works.

I think some people who wrote on both sides didn't test this well enough.

How to test for this:

1: ALWAYS use one loadout and one skill on one mob often enough to get usefull data. Hitting one mob once is not eoungh, do it a dozen times at least ang get an avarage. My version of this was using the witch awakenings 'w+f' skill on the Wandering rouge fighters and observing how many hits it takes to get them to half health.

2: Test more then two different loadouts! Play around with your options, not just EVERYTHING vs NOTHING but a green main hand. Which leads to my findings, but let me tell you how I got there first:

After hearing about this on reddit and here, a guildmate and I went to Mediah with his 59 Tamer and my 57 Witch, I don't have his exact stats but he was able to confirm everything I tested on the Wandering Rouge Fighters on Manes and Abandoned Iron Mines.

First I tested 'My Gear' (180 AwAp) aganst 'NOTHING' (no Accs, green unupgraded Main/Awakening/Offhand), and everything seemed fine. my attacks doing significantly more dmg with the good gear, it looks like AP itself is not broken.

But I didn't stop there and tested other loudout to see if anything specific broke. To reiterate: I used the Witch Awakening forward+f attack on Wandering rouge fighter and counted the hits to get this thing to half health, repeatedly. The Results got interesting:

My normals gear (180 AwAp) : 9/10 times three hits, 1/10 times 2 hits.

Green Awakening + normal rest (93 AwAP) : 10/10 times three hits.

No Accs, green Main and Offhand BUT Tri Ultimate Awakening (104 AwAP) : 5 - 7 hits.

Nothing but green stuff (~20 AwAP) : 6 or so hits (didn't test this one enough but it was not much dmg as one would imagine)

Well, the first two could be explained with a AP cap or so, but then why would the almost same AP do far far less dmg in the third loadout. The slight difference between the first and second could be thanks to some Accuracy or something but TWICE the AP should be more noticable then that. Now that it looked like I found something messy I told my guildmate and he tested it and got similar result that suggets that the AP of Awakening weapons might not be applied correctly ATM.

tl;dr Awakening Weapon MAY be broken right now.

 

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Posted

Some will probably say "topic merge".

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Posted

Some will probably say "topic merge".

I assumed so, but after taking a look at the seas of piss the other to threads devolved to I wanted to give my observations at least a fighting chance of meaning something. Call me selfish or whatever.

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Posted

I assumed so, but after taking a look at the seas of piss the other to threads devolved to I wanted to give my observations at least a fighting chance of meaning something. Call me selfish or whatever.

I don't have to call you anything, that thread has good amount of actual input. 

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Posted (edited)

This matter is one of the most impactful and confusing aspects in this game so far and we got absolutely NO OFFICIAL INFORMATION about this. What the hell is going on here? And why are those silent ninja patches and changes always the most interesting and influenting? We need official confirmation about this case ASAP!!!

Edited by Skulldemon

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Posted (edited)

I agree with your conclusion and think they normalized /capped the damage output after certain AP.  Its really unfortunate tbh, because no MMO should ever squander the player's long term progression and feeling of advancements regardless of mob level.

I agree to an extent. I don't think a players progression should be snubbed outright however theres an obvious gap between the casual and non casual player. Most people who visit the forums are not casual players I reckon, so I may not really be speaking to both sides of the coin, perhaps only the more "dominant" one. But when you have new players (or returning ones) wanting to experience the same content thats honestly overrun by players whose gear far exceeds the areas contested, you have to find a way to make it fair for both sides. A level 56 300 GS player will never stand a chance against a level 58 400+ GS player. Hell even the rerolling players, using a newly leveled character with hand me down gear is probably too much to handle for newbies. So you either make the playing field even across the board or you release newer/better content thats worth it for the player who is miles ahead of the vast majority.

So far Valencia and Magoria havent proved to be the latter and everyone is still stuck grinding the same areas, killing the same world bosses, doing the same scrolls, etc. The new (or returning players) will never be able to experience Sausans or Pirate island the way we did. Those areas were once the end all be all places. No one group was propped up by countless previous expansions, there hadnt been an overbearing gap. Even with the catchup mechanics we have in place, it's hard for someone to catch up, when the tools used to do so are still primarily used by everyone whose been through the experience and should have moved on months ago. Not the players fault, new content just doesnt have a baseline (or even a much greater potential) of wealth and power that far exceeds expansions past. Anything in the desert should be x10 more efficient than anything gotten in media and Margoria should be outclassing the desert by just as much. This isnt the case. Making it so that older players cannot completely shut out newbies is the way to go if they don't want to introduce alot of money and power in other areas to such an extreme to make them ridiculously lucrative.

Im conflicted with it honestly. Damage done to mobs in certain areas being capped is one way to go about balancing things for the lowbie for sure. But Karma bombing is still a thing and unless I've missed something, I will still lose a lot of karma (and thus money/time) fighting some relentless player who feels entitled to growth. The ideal scenario would be to make more lucrative spots that lowbies couldnt dare touch until they became worthy in their own right (High gearscore, knowledge level and skill across the board) that way no one steps on each others toes. But that seems like too much work apparently. They could also actually commit to the games competitive nature and force players to compete for spots once more. Allowing gear, numbers, and "skill" to speak for who deserves the spot and who doesnt. Though this is probably just a really destructive end result that will get old really quick. Theres always gonna be someone stronger with more numbers for 99% of the player base, so this shuts out even more people. I think they settled on a middle ground, one that doesnt hurt the high AP guy too much but doesnt give the low AP much room either. Levels will still mater because skills have % based damage as well as accuracy multipliers. Not every newbie is an experienced witch/wiz that one shots every pack they come across.

Edited by Nexius
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Posted

But when you have new players (or returning ones) wanting to experience the same content thats honestly overrun by players whose gear far exceeds the areas contested, you have to find a way to make it fair for both sides.

Right, so why don't they leave our AP scaling alone and make it more appealing to fight higher level, more difficult mobs instead? Probably easier to just cap out the maximum percentage of total health you can deal to mobs as damage instead. This reeks of laziness.

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Posted

So with this pretty much being confirmed, where should I farm at with 166/177/220 gear(no boss arm)? 

 

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Posted

all mediah mobs die in 1 hit with 100ap, try doing tests in Valencia, there you will see ap matter

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