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Ninja: Bugs, Class Issues, and Suggestions

37 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Bugs

Over on the Tamer forum, they've compiled a thread on all the different bugs/issues they could find with the class. Why don't we do the same? I'm going to compile a list here. 

Statuses:

[Tested and confirmed] - I've personally seen it happen, have been able to consistently reproduce it, and have seen others encounter the issue.

[Tested and confirmed, needs more data] - I've personally seen it happen, have been able to reproduce it, and others have encountered the issue, but not enough data has been collected to know where/why the issue is occurring. 

[Tested and confirmed, confirmed complete BS]  - I've personally seen it happen, have been able to consistently reproduce it, and have seen others encounter the issue. Issue that causes an unfair advantage for other classes and causes unbalance in match-ups.

[Confirmed, but hard to reproduce] - I've personally seen it happen many times enough to say it's an issue, but I can't figure out what the cause is and as a result, am unable to reproduce it consistently.

[Needs more confirmation] - I've personally seen it happen, but have not heard other accounts of the issue or enough to say it's confirmed.

[Needs confirmation] - I've heard more than one account of the issue, but have not personally seen it.

[Unconfirmed] - Heard one account of the issue, but have not personally seen it.

 

Major Bugs


1. I-frames are incredibly inconsistent: Ghost Step will sometimes iframe through skills, sometimes not, even with proper timing. Ninja Step never iframes.  Log Block does not activate iframes sometimes when invisible. [Needs more confirmation]

2. Stealth breaks from mainhand if you use it on an inclination and goes on CD. [Tested and confirmed]

3. Asura super armor is inconsistent. You can be knocked out of it, putting it on cd with no buff being activated. [Needs more confirmation] Some accounts report that it is broken against Witches. [Needs confirmation]

4. Katana Shower super armor is inconsistent. It doesn't seem to activate at the start of the animation, but once the characters kneels and the rain down effect starts. [Needs more confirmation] Witches seem to null super armor completely. [Unconfirmed]

5.  Drastic Measure super armor is inconsistent. Sometimes you are vulnerable, even when charging. [Needs more confirmation]

6. Transition Stance does not apply to skills consistently, forcing you to use the regular stance variant. Seems to occur after trans murderous, but sometimes even Murderous won't cast as Trans stance variant. [Confirmed, but hard to reproduce]

7. Target Chase breaks and goes on cd when used too early out of a rez, amongst other situations. [Tested and confirmed]

8. Murderous Intent travel distance is inconsistent. Different terrains break travel completely or cause varying travel distances. [Tested and confirmed]

9. Buff and Debuff character effects (hands glow, bleeding, burning, etc) display despite being in stealth. (Intentional, maybe?) [Tested and confirmed]

10. Pets can aggro stealthed targets and it does not break no matter the distance; can persist after stealth user's death. [Tested and confirmed, confirmed complete BS

11. Transitioned Serpent damage is inconsistent. At some ranges, it does full damage. At others, it doesn't. [Tested and confirmed, needs more data]

12. Zerkers stand up early from Awakened grab. [Tested and confirmed, confirmed complete BS]

13. Stealth breaks on cast after V and goes on CD, similar to early Target Chase cast. [Tested and confirmed]

14. Transition Decap has varying speeds. Sometimes the animation is delayed, sometimes it is not. Cause is unknown. [Tested and confirmed]

15. Log Block Jump will face you away from the enemy instead of towards them sometimes on successful block jump. Cause is unknown. [Tested and confirmed, needs more data]

16. Awakening weapon and offhand durability drain very fast when using awakening. Could be a result of a previous Murderous Intent bug. [Tested and confirmed, needs more data]

17A. Some Awakened Weapon skills do not benefit from attack speed bonuses from character sheet (crystals/gear) or add-ons. Attack speed buffs from other sources unclear. Katana Shower, Sura Chaospree, and auto attack do speed up, however. [Needs more confirmation]

17B. Corrupt Sword Dance, Sudden Decapitation, Execution, Seamless + all variants, Murderous Intent, Flash Bondage, Asura, Vengeful Barrier, Vacuum Slash, and Serpent Ascension do not increase in speed with either attack speed or cast speed xtals, nor do attack speed add-ons seem to affect them.  [Needs more confirmation]

 

Minor Bugs

 

1. Awakened Ghost Step distance is inconsistent. [Tested and confirmed]

2. Flow: Execution is usable after jumping and swapping mid-jump into awakening. [Tested and confirmed]

3. Drastic Measure charging speeds up with casting speed crystals. [Tested and confirmed, needs more data]

Class Issues

1. I-frames: Our core iframes are arguably one of the worst in the game. Ghost Step is horrible even compared to Tamer WW or Zerker hop, maybe even Witchard Magical Evasion. It has a hard cd, which those don't. It's an incredibly quick animation that while boosts mobility, it makes it suffer when it comes to avoiding attacks, especially on our crappy servers. Ninja step doesn't even work 90% of the time as an iframe despite having a longer animation than Ghost Step. Again, poor design. Our saving grace iframe, block jump, is on a 9 second cd, and would be a waste of an opener if you just use it to avoid attacks. It also has a track record of borking sometimes. Silent Charge works, but is again, inconsistent. I think inconsistency is a big issue here. How to fix it? Increase iframe duration on Ninja Step and Ghost Step. Ghost Step should be an entire iframe, not partial.

2. Animation locks, speed, and flow: The whole idea of Ninja comes this fast, fluid assassin who is supposed to flow like water. Despite most of the Ninja main hand kit not exactly chaining into each other, attacks had short animations that flowed well enough to make combos. The awakening is a different story. Aside from one ability that has multiple variant-links (seamless), most of our abilities are standoffish compared to the mainhand. Each ability has a somewhat long animation with some sort of end lag. Serpent, Katana Shower, Vacuum Slash, Mach Explosion, Sura Chaospree, Execution, and Drastic Measure all have end lag. This means that when you finish a skill animation, there is a slight period of downtime where you cannot do anything. While for most, it's pretty short, around a half second or less, but it's still there. The class is still somewhat fast, but it has nowhere near the fluidity of pre-awakening. You can't even use Mach Explosion very often since it doesn't flow with the rest of the kit due to set-up requirements and its somewhat lengthy animation. Same for Sura Chaospree. Chaospree is so long that the cc can wear out before you finish the attack. The Seamless variants of Decap and CSD are the only variants you should use in pvp because the others suck for animation length or lack of damage in trans stance.

3. CCs, chaining them, and overall CC effectiveness: Pre-awakening, Ninja was a hodgepodge of ccs. He had stiffs, stuns, floats, and grabs. He had enough stiffs and stuns to actively rotate them on standing targets, greatly extending his combos. This made him a great Jack-of-All-Trades. The awakening retains some of this, but doesn't use it to greater effect. The awakening is centered around knockdowns, its own grab, and then extending into shortsword and back to awakening to lengthen combos. This is fine, but it could be better. A lot of ccs have low chance to activate because they only work for a couple hits. Abilities like Seamless and Katana Shower rarely knockdown because only one hit is considered a cc. Vacuum has a similar issue where it has two different ccs across three hits, so you have two chances to bound and one to kd. And it still rarely works. Changing something like Seamless to a stiff would increase combo potential within the awakening. Adding Down Smash to Mach Explosion would make it work despite animation length issues. Adding more cc-hits to the skills would make the class do better. It only makes the class suffer more because of its lack of innate accuracy.

4. Over-reliance on Serpent: Serpent Ascension is a great skill. In fact, it's one of the strongest abilities in the game in terms of pure dps. 100% crit rate, air attack and down attack mod, and high damage modifier. This thing is a beast. While I love it, I feel that it's ultimately a factor that holds Ninja back. The class is so reliant on Serpent that if you took it away as the class is now, I have a feeling maybe only a couple of delusional people here would still play it. It's honestly made me worse as a Ninja player, and for a bit, it killed my ability to combo. I'd just walk up to people, stun them, then hit them with a back Serpent and they'd either die, or take one more ability to finish them off. Slight nerfs would be in order if you were to buff everything else, unless you literally touch nothing but Ninja survivability. I'd honestly like to see everything else become more prevalent instead of Serpent being your only real dps skill.

5. Ninja Step CD: Ninja Step CD is too long. Reduce the CD on Ninja Step.

6.Lack of kit defense: Obviously, Ninja's real glaring flaw post awakening is the overall lack of Super Armor and Frontal Guard across the kit compared to everyone else. Everybody is loaded down with either FG or SA or a mix of them. In fact, Ninja is the only assassin class without a plethora of defense while one of them hits just as hard (Tamer), another hits just as hard while actually being from Kenya (Maehwa),  one has hard-hitting, spammy aoes and is also secretly Kenyan (Musa), and the other (Kuno) has good aoe cc + stealth (same as us). Did I mention Kenyan mode prevents you from being cc'd? That's apparently a thing.  The only way I'd ever want to see Serpent buffed is to see it get armor or guard. Having one good super armor (Murderous Intent),  one good frontal guard (stance transitioning), one decent frontal guard (vengeful barrier + attack), and everything else be a piecemeal frontal guard (Vacuum 1-3, Seamless 1st, Chaospree un/sheath), partial armor (charging drastic) or buggy super armor (Katana Shower, Asura) isn't enough. Out of the entire kit, only two are good and for mostly the same reason: Duration. This also seems to be a complaint of our sisters-in-arms Kuno-chan, and might be why she bottoms out on the KDR list. She has the ccs, but lacks our damage, and still has defense issues due to bugs or poor placement. You could skip every fix besides the iframe improvement, Ninja Step cd reduction, and giving us grab passive if you just gave us more super armor and frontal guard.

7. Our grabs suck: Everybody loves or hates grabs for different reasons. Personally? I love and hate grabs. I think they're a good thing in a god-awful meta. When they're used to shut down someone who abuses lengthy, hard-hitting skills like Wizard? Love it. When they're used to cheese fights ala Zerker? No. That said, compared to Warrior and Zerker, our grabs are kind of mediocre. Shorter range, longer cd (compared to Warrior), and it our grabs seem to be resisted an awful lot compared to the two even before Zerker got grab passive. The latter reason is the main reason our grabs suck the most. That said, giving us the grab passive would really help in the long run.

8. Stealth is kind of mediocre: It's slow, it leaves you more vulnerable than not sometimes (if you have tamer or witchard aggro and they aren't retarded, don't bother using it), and its only real use is in small/large scale fights. Any debuff makes you visible to the enemy (the effect stands out, at least), pets can see you, you're completely vulnerable to all types of cc and they break stealth. Why is it like this? I'd take an evasion buff while in stealth (makes logical sense. It's harder to hit something you can't see) or a movement speed increase. Something, anything to make it better.

9. Our mobility is average: With awakening, almost everybody got some new toy to move them faster (forward) or make them move better (side-to-side or diagonally). If they didn't, they already moved fast enough or they received skills to maintain everything from their mainhand's mobility. Ninjas kind of got some improvements, but not really? We got a slide that takes the place of shadow step, but is nowhere near as usable. We didn't originally have Ninja Step, but we received that change later. We got Silent Charge and murderous, which gave us another option for forward or backward momentum, but not sideways. Our lateral and diagonal movement (which was arguably, if not the best of all classes) took a hit. While we gained Silent Charge, our overall speed doesn't really increase because it requires trans stance and Murderous has a slight delay before you move forward. Before awakening, our mobility wasn't the highest, but it was good and we didn't need more. In the awakened world, we need more mobility to keep up with the likes of Zerker, Musa, Maehwa, Warrior, and now even Valk. It doesn't help that most of our skills lock us in place now.

10. Mach Explosion sucks: I sort of addressed this earlier in my talk about class flow, but holy crap, Mach Explosion is probably the #1 contender for useless level 60 skill. I mean, it's meant to be an "ultimate" flow. Why isn't it attached to Serpent instead of Drastic Measure? It has no defense, no crit chance of its own (which is why its damage is so garbo compared to Serpent + it doesn't get air attack), it's currently tied to a very niche skill that wastes a good knockdown, and using it will eat up an opportunity to just continue your combo with another grab or a decent downsmash.

11. Lack of Accuracy: Ninja overall accuracy is very poor. Our main hand has no accuracy bonuses in its core aoe skills and awakening has varying degrees of accuracy bonuses, ranging from very little on important skills to too much on an otherwise not very useful skill. Our accuracy passive is incredibly bad as well, losing out to other classes such as DK who get a lot more accuracy from their passive and have better/more accuracy bonuses overall.

Suggestions

1. Fix our iframes. Make them at least consistent, or make them longer. This is talked about in both the bug section and class issues. [High Priority]

2. Reduce animation lengths and speed up our skills. Make them flow into each other better by removing or reducing end lag. [High Priority]

3. Increase our mobility by reducing Ninja Step cd and maybe increasing its distance. [Medium Priority]

4. Add more Super Armor and Frontal Guard to the awakened skills. Stop with the 1-3 hits of skills being guard or armor. [High Priority]

5. Fix current stealth bugs, maybe add evasion or movement speed buff. [High-to-Medium Priority]

6. Add down smash and crit chance to Mach Explosion. [Low-to-Medium Priority]

7. Add Increase Grip skill to class. [Medium Priority]

8. Even out kit damage so we're less reliant on Serpent. [Low Priority]

9. Increase the chance to cc on all of our skills. Having 1-cc-hits on our skills is very lackluster. [High Priority]

10. Fix all the current class bugs. [High Priority

 

If you have anything to add, let me know and I'll update the thread.

Last Updated 4/23/2017

Edited by Xenon
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Posted

Being in awaken form, use V and try to use stealth. Fails

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Posted

The amount of accuracy we have on our skills is a joke when compared to other classes, 3% lol might as well be 0.

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QQ this was beautiful to read but I highly doubt theyd put this much effort into ninja LOL. Id rlly want that cd reduction on ninja steps tho :0---  Im alrdy fast as hell adding even more would make me a ghost in pvp lol......do it

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The amount of accuracy we have on our skills is a joke when compared to other classes, 3% lol might as well be 0.

blade spin blade, beheading the dead, black moonlight.... 0% accuracy. There is others but i'm not ingame atm to check. 

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The amount of accuracy we have on our skills is a joke when compared to other classes, 3% lol might as well be 0.

ninja lol.png

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Posted

feelsnarutoman.jpg

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Bugs

 

*snip*

Major Bugs

6. Transition Stance does not apply to skills consistently, forcing you to use the regular stance variant. [Confirmed, but hard to reproduce]

*snip*

 Where's the awakened grab bug on that list :(

#6 can be replicated by using trans stance murderous then any trans stance variant, including drastic measure and serpent. ( i use decap consistently and maybe 1/20 times it will use the non trans variant for one reason or another)

trans stance decap has a fast animation and a slow animation, the slow is almost 2x slower.

if you jump c, you can use flow:execution right after 

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 Where's the awakened grab bug on that list :(

#6 can be replicated by using trans stance murderous then any trans stance variant, including drastic measure and serpent. ( i use decap consistently and maybe 1/20 times it will use the non trans variant for one reason or another)

trans stance decap has a fast animation and a slow animation, the slow is almost 2x slower.

if you jump c, you can use flow:execution right after 

i've never done transition stance decap because if i use it, its during pve, and i have the creascent slash and seamless attack speed buffs up a lot. transition Decap is like instant. 

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i've never done transition stance decap because if i use it, its during pve, and i have the creascent slash and seamless attack speed buffs up a lot. transition Decap is like instant. 

i never use decap in pvp, hate the skill for pvp, but it hits hard for pve and some mobs bound but not float so i use it before serpent so it has down attack damage. decap is inconsistent for me, you will see a clear fast animation, and a obvious slow one even with no buffs, it's not the aspd.

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Ghost step in awakening sometimes varies between long and short versions of it. Short version almost consistent going backwards in awakening. Didnt have this problem on kuno. Its so bad you cant even get behind mobs, forcing you to use transition stance. 

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i never use decap in pvp, hate the skill for pvp, but it hits hard for pve and some mobs bound but not float so i use it before serpent so it has down attack damage. decap is inconsistent for me, you will see a clear fast animation, and a obvious slow one even with no buffs, it's not the aspd.

you most likely have a buff of attack speed up without realizing it. I purposely grind with attack speed buffs up because its significantly faster clearspeed. I thought the decap animation stuff was a bug until i was able to repeat the instant animation. I've tried to do the "instant decap bug" animation for 30 minutes on dummies and couldn't ever get it to trigger. 

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you most likely have a buff of attack speed up without realizing it. I purposely grind with attack speed buffs up because its significantly faster clearspeed. I thought the decap animation stuff was a bug until i was able to repeat the instant animation. I've tried to do the "instant decap bug" animation for 30 minutes on dummies and couldn't ever get it to trigger. 

no aspd buff, literally all i did was trans stance into decap on a target, the aspd bonus is not a variable, sometimes its just fast and sometimes it aint. All decap was done off cd incase cd was a factor. For the sake of actually testing it out, all variables were the same.

its not instant btw, if u misunderstood. The fast decap takes about the same time as fatal blow + combo. The slow takes about double. U will always cast the slow one if u have no target im pretty sure, but if u hit a target its random.  Im surprised no one notices this really, its a huge bug imo, beginning to think its a client issue.

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Asura Super armor is so garbage and the most tilting bug for me. I can confirm on my side that it does not work at all (or speculate to have really small SA duration of less than 0.5 sec) and can get CCd by pretty much anything. - It may need more tests but every time I use it in the heat of battle (mostly noticed against warriors, wiz/witch and other ninjas), I get CCd all the time and buff gets cancelled. I'm starting to believe it must be a typo to even put super armor there. Other ninjas I know report the same.

Being in awaken form, use V and try to use stealth. Fails

I can also confirm this, I believe it also works for non-awakened? But anyhow I've learned to never stealth right away after V cuz it will never, ever work. You have to wait about 5+ seconds before you stealth. This could be intentional since its somehow Overpowered to be able to stealth right away after V, leaving no opportunity for your enemy to catch you. 

Also is the wiz/witch pet suppose to detect us when in stealth?! I swear there are times when I just get aggroed by pets randomly when sneaking behind people when I've approached them from a mile away. It's not always 100% but it happens. - Potential Bug or is this the same as #10 Major bug in the list?

Regarding our I-frames, I can confirm it is inconsistent, but I'll probably blame it on desync or lag. They need to increase the iframe duration to compensate for it.

Good compilation overall, although I don't agree with some of the class issues and suggestions, the bugs definitely need to be looked at.

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Thanks for all the feedback, guys. I've updated the post with all the bugs I've missed and some other information others posted.

Asura Super armor is so garbage and the most tilting bug for me. I can confirm on my side that it does not work at all (or speculate to have really small SA duration of less than 0.5 sec) and can get CCd by pretty much anything. - It may need more tests but every time I use it in the heat of battle (mostly noticed against warriors, wiz/witch and other ninjas), I get CCd all the time and buff gets cancelled. I'm starting to believe it must be a typo to even put super armor there. Other ninjas I know report the same.

I can also confirm this, I believe it also works for non-awakened? But anyhow I've learned to never stealth right away after V cuz it will never, ever work. You have to wait about 5+ seconds before you stealth. This could be intentional since its somehow Overpowered to be able to stealth right away after V, leaving no opportunity for your enemy to catch you. 

Also is the wiz/witch pet suppose to detect us when in stealth?! I swear there are times when I just get aggroed by pets randomly when sneaking behind people when I've approached them from a mile away. It's not always 100% but it happens. - Potential Bug or is this the same as #10 Major bug in the list?

Regarding our I-frames, I can confirm it is inconsistent, but I'll probably blame it on desync or lag. They need to increase the iframe duration to compensate for it.

Good compilation overall, although I don't agree with some of the class issues and suggestions, the bugs definitely need to be looked at.

Yeah, I've learned to always try to distance yourself before casting Asura. The stun is rng, and most of the time, people are in super armor anyway. It's very risky to use it close to people, cuz you usually get cc'd and die.

I've seen it happen a couple times, so I updated the post with the information.

It's suppose to be part of the issue. I'll update the post to clarify.

It's very likely an issue of the net code and the servers. But hey, you never know. These guys screw up the simplest things sometimes.

Take the post with a grain of salt. I don't expect everyone to agree on all the issues. It's a compilation of what I and everyone else thinks is wrong with the class. Suggestions to fix the class are all stand-alone, as well. One change does not necessitate another. Same for the issues. You fix say, our iframes, and the necessity for super armor/frontal guard becomes a lot less, maybe even 0. Priority is more so my idea of how much I think the changes will impact the class's performance, and somewhat how quickly that change should be applied.

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Im willing to bet almost all of our iframe and super armor problems are from desync. Whoever thought only adding super armor to 1/3 of a skills animation when the games servers are a complete mess should be fired. It goes both ways too. DK's perma iframes are even better because desync might as well add another 1 second of iframe after all of their moves. Since our's are completely based on timing we get -----ed over hard.

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Sadly they don't account for NA/EU server performance. I'm sure it's a little better in KR, even if the netcode is universally bad. We'll just have to watch the patch notes in KR for the foreseeable future. I'll report any changes I see to the forum asap.

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Posted (edited)

great things

Keep that good work. This topic shall not die!

Maybe we shall @GM some attention?

 

Edited by Kripion

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I've also had issues where i die while using asura (the 50% heal is applied a little period after actually using the skill)

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Please add:

Successful wood blocks that teleport behind a target sometimes makes you face away from the target (your back is up against the target). The correct behavior is to have you face the target when successfully teleporting behind them.

[Tested and confirmed, needs more data

I experience this first hand and have seen it on stream from ninjas in korea's server. I'd also consider it complete BS because if you do awaken grab right after the TP, you waste your grab and are put into a long ass 18 second cooldown simply because of the dev's incompetence

Edited by Instinct

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Please add:

Successful wood blocks that teleport behind a target sometimes makes you face away from the target (your back is up against the target). The correct behavior is to have you face the target when successfully teleporting behind them.

[Tested and confirmed, needs more data

I experience this first hand and have seen it on stream from ninjas in korea's server. I'd also consider it complete BS because if you do awaken grab right after the TP, you waste your grab and are put into a long ass 18 second cooldown simply because of the dev's incompetence

yes happened to me many times

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Bugs

Over on the Tamer forum, they've compiled a thread on all the different bugs/issues they could find with the class. Why don't we do the same? I'm going to compile a list here. 

Statuses:

[Tested and confirmed] - I've personally seen it happen, have been able to consistently reproduce it, and have seen others encounter the issue.

[Tested and confirmed, needs more data] - I've personally seen it happen, have been able to reproduce it, and others have encountered the issue, but not enough data has been collected to know where/why the issue is occurring. 

[Tested and confirmed, confirmed complete BS]  - I've personally seen it happen, have been able to consistently reproduce it, and have seen others encounter the issue. Issue that causes an unfair advantage for other classes and causes unbalance in match-ups.

[Confirmed, but hard to reproduce] - I've personally seen it happen many times enough to say it's an issue, but I can't figure out what the cause is and as a result, am unable to reproduce it consistently.

[Needs more confirmation] - I've personally seen it happen, but have not heard other accounts of the issue or enough to say it's confirmed.

[Needs confirmation] - I've heard more than one account of the issue, but have not personally seen it.

[Unconfirmed] - Heard one account of the issue, but have not personally seen it.

 

Major Bugs


1. I-frames are incredibly inconsistent: Ghost Step will sometimes iframe through skills, sometimes not, even with proper timing. Ninja Step never iframes.  Log Block does not activate iframes sometimes when invisible. [Needs more confirmation]

2. Stealth breaks from mainhand if you use it on an inclination and goes on CD. [Tested and confirmed]

3. Asura super armor is inconsistent. You can be knocked out of it, putting it on cd with no buff being activated. [Needs more confirmation] Some accounts report that it is broken against Witches. [Needs confirmation]

4. Katana Shower super armor is inconsistent. It doesn't seem to activate at the start of the animation, but once the characters kneels and the rain down effect starts. [Needs more confirmation] Witches seem to null super armor completely. [Unconfirmed]

5.  Drastic Measure super armor is inconsistent. Sometimes you are vulnerable, even when charging. [Needs more confirmation]

6. Transition Stance does not apply to skills consistently, forcing you to use the regular stance variant. Seems to occur after trans murderous, but sometimes even Murderous won't cast as Trans stance variant. [Confirmed, but hard to reproduce]

7. Target Chase breaks and goes on cd when used too early out of a rez, amongst other situations. [Tested and confirmed]

8. Murderous Intent travel distance is inconsistent. Different terrains break travel completely or cause varying travel distances. [Tested and confirmed]

9. Buff and Debuff character effects (hands glow, bleeding, burning, etc) display despite being in stealth. (Intentional, maybe?) [Tested and confirmed]

10. Pets can aggro stealthed targets and it does not break no matter the distance; can persist after stealth user's death. [Tested and confirmed, confirmed complete BS

11. Transitioned Serpent damage is inconsistent. At some ranges, it does full damage. At others, it doesn't. [Tested and confirmed, needs more data]

12. Zerkers stand up early from Awakened grab. [Tested and confirmed, confirmed complete BS ]

13. Stealth breaks on cast after V and goes on CD, similar to early Target Chase cast. [Tested and confirmed]

14. Transition Decap has varying speeds. Sometimes the animation is delayed, sometimes it is not. Cause is unknown. [Tested and confirmed]

 

Minor Bugs

 

1. Awakened Ghost Step distance is inconsistent. [Tested and confirmed]

2. Flow: Execution is usable after jumping and swapping mid-jump into awakening. [Unconfirmed]

Class Issues

1. I-frames: Our core iframes are arguably one of the worst in the game. Ghost Step is horrible even compared to Tamer WW or Zerker hop, maybe even Witchard Magical Evasion. It has a hard cd, which those don't. It's an incredibly quick animation that while boosts mobility, it makes it suffer when it comes to avoiding attacks, especially on our crappy servers. Ninja step doesn't even work 90% of the time as an iframe despite having a longer animation than Ghost Step. Again, poor design. Our saving grace iframe, block jump, is on a 9 second cd, and would be a waste of an opener if you just use it to avoid attacks. It also has a track record of borking sometimes. Silent Charge works, but is again, inconsistent. I think inconsistency is a big issue here. How to fix it? Increase iframe duration on Ninja Step and Ghost Step. Ghost Step should be an entire iframe, not partial.

2. Animation locks, speed, and flow: The whole idea of Ninja comes this fast, fluid assassin who is supposed to flow like water. Despite most of the Ninja main hand kit not exactly chaining into each other, attacks had short animations that flowed well enough to make combos. The awakening is a different story. Aside from one ability that has multiple variant-links (seamless), most of our abilities are standoffish compared to the mainhand. Each ability has a somewhat long animation with some sort of end lag. Serpent, Katana Shower, Vacuum Slash, Mach Explosion, Sura Chaospree, Execution, and Drastic Measure all have end lag. This means that when you finish a skill animation, there is a slight period of downtime where you cannot do anything. While for most, it's pretty short, around a half second or less, but it's still there. The class is still somewhat fast, but it has nowhere near the fluidity of pre-awakening. You can't even use Mach Explosion very often since it doesn't flow with the rest of the kit due to set-up requirements and its somewhat lengthy animation. Same for Sura Chaospree. Chaospree is so long that the cc can wear out before you finish the attack. The Seamless variants of Decap and CSD are the only variants you should use in pvp because the others suck for animation length or lack of damage in trans stance.

3. CCs, chaining them, and overall CC effectiveness: Pre-awakening, Ninja was a hodgepodge of ccs. He had stiffs, stuns, floats, and grabs. He had enough stiffs and stuns to actively rotate them on standing targets, greatly extending his combos. This made him a great Jack-of-All-Trades. The awakening retains some of this, but doesn't use it to greater effect. The awakening is centered around knockdowns, its own grab, and then extending into shortsword and back to awakening to lengthen combos. This is fine, but it could be better. A lot of ccs have low chance to activate because they only work for a couple hits. Abilities like Seamless and Katana Shower rarely knockdown because only one hit is considered a cc. Vacuum has a similar issue where it has two different ccs across three hits, so you have two chances to bound and one to kd. And it still rarely works. Changing something like Seamless to a stiff would increase combo potential within the awakening. Adding Down Smash to Mach Explosion would make it work despite animation length issues. Adding more cc-hits to the skills would make the class do better. It only makes the class suffer more because of its lack of innate accuracy.

4. Over-reliance on Serpent: Serpent Ascension is a great skill. In fact, it's one of the strongest abilities in the game in terms of pure dps. 100% crit rate, air attack and down attack mod, and high damage modifier. This thing is a beast. While I love it, I feel that it's ultimately a factor that holds Ninja back. The class is so reliant on Serpent that if you took it away as the class is now, I have a feeling maybe only a couple of delusional people here would still play it. It's honestly made me worse as a Ninja player, and for a bit, it killed my ability to combo. I'd just walk up to people, stun them, then hit them with a back Serpent and they'd either die, or take one more ability to finish them off. Slight nerfs would be in order if you were to buff everything else, unless you literally touch nothing but Ninja survivability. I'd honestly like to see everything else become more prevalent instead of Serpent being your only real dps skill.

5. Ninja Step CD: Ninja Step CD is too long. Reduce the CD on Ninja Step.

6.Lack of kit defense: Obviously, Ninja's real glaring flaw post awakening is the overall lack of Super Armor and Frontal Guard across the kit compared to everyone else. Everybody is loaded down with either FG or SA or a mix of them. In fact, Ninja is the only assassin class without a plethora of defense while one of them hits just as hard (Tamer), another hits just as hard while actually being from Kenya (Maehwa),  one has hard-hitting, spammy aoes and is also secretly Kenyan (Musa), and the other (Kuno) has good aoe cc + stealth (same as us). Did I mention Kenyan mode prevents you from being cc'd? That's apparently a thing.  The only way I'd ever want to see Serpent buffed is to see it get armor or guard. Having one good super armor (Murderous Intent),  one good frontal guard (stance transitioning), one decent frontal guard (vengeful barrier + attack), and everything else be a piecemeal frontal guard (Vacuum 1-3, Seamless 1st, Chaospree un/sheath), partial armor (charging drastic) or buggy super armor (Katana Shower, Asura) isn't enough. Out of the entire kit, only two are good and for mostly the same reason: Duration. This also seems to be a complaint of our sisters-in-arms Kuno-chan, and might be why she bottoms out on the KDR list. She has the ccs, but lacks our damage, and still has defense issues due to bugs or poor placement. You could skip every fix besides the iframe improvement, Ninja Step cd reduction, and giving us grab passive if you just gave us more super armor and frontal guard.

7. Our grabs suck: Everybody loves or hates grabs for different reasons. Personally? I love and hate grabs. I think they're a good thing in a god-awful meta. When they're used to shut down someone who abuses lengthy, hard-hitting skills like Wizard? Love it. When they're used to cheese fights ala Zerker? No. That said, compared to Warrior and Zerker, our grabs are kind of mediocre. Shorter range, longer cd (compared to Warrior), and it our grabs seem to be resisted an awful lot compared to the two even before Zerker got grab passive. The latter reason is the main reason our grabs suck the most. That said, giving us the grab passive would really help in the long run.

8. Stealth is kind of mediocre: It's slow, it leaves you more vulnerable than not sometimes (if you have tamer or witchard aggro and they aren't retarded, don't bother using it), and its only real use is in small/large scale fights. Any debuff makes you visible to the enemy (the effect stands out, at least), pets can see you, you're completely vulnerable to all types of cc and they break stealth. Why is it like this? I'd take an evasion buff while in stealth (makes logical sense. It's harder to hit something you can't see) or a movement speed increase. Something, anything to make it better.

9. Our mobility is average: With awakening, almost everybody got some new toy to move them faster (forward) or make them move better (side-to-side or diagonally). If they didn't, they already moved fast enough or they received skills to maintain everything from their mainhand's mobility. Ninjas kind of got some improvements, but not really? We got a slide that takes the place of shadow step, but is nowhere near as usable. We didn't originally have Ninja Step, but we received that change later. We got Silent Charge and murderous, which gave us another option for forward or backward momentum, but not sideways. Our lateral and diagonal movement (which was arguably, if not the best of all classes) took a hit. While we gained Silent Charge, our overall speed doesn't really increase because it requires trans stance and Murderous has a slight delay before you move forward. Before awakening, our mobility wasn't the highest, but it was good and we didn't need more. In the awakened world, we need more mobility to keep up with the likes of Zerker, Musa, Maehwa, Warrior, and now even Valk. It doesn't help that most of our skills lock us in place now.

10. Mach Explosion sucks: I sort of addressed this earlier in my talk about class flow, but holy crap, Mach Explosion is probably the #1 contender for useless level 60 skill. I mean, it's meant to be an "ultimate" flow. Why isn't it attached to Serpent instead of Drastic Measure? It has no defense, no crit chance of its own (which is why its damage is so garbo compared to Serpent + it doesn't get air attack), it's currently tied to a very niche skill that wastes a good knockdown, and using it will eat up an opportunity to just continue your combo with another grab or a decent downsmash.

11. Lack of Accuracy: Ninja overall accuracy is very poor. Our main hand has no accuracy bonuses in its core aoe skills and awakening has varying degrees of accuracy bonuses, ranging from very little on important skills to too much on an otherwise not very useful skill. Our accuracy passive is incredibly bad as well, losing out to other classes such as DK who get a lot more accuracy from their passive and have better/more accuracy bonuses overall.

Suggestions

1. Fix our iframes. Make them at least consistent, or make them longer. This is talked about in both the bug section and class issues. [High Priority]

2. Reduce animation lengths and speed up our skills. Make them flow into each other better by removing or reducing end lag. [High Priority]

3. Increase our mobility by reducing Ninja Step cd and maybe increasing its distance. [Medium Priority]

4. Add more Super Armor and Frontal Guard to the awakened skills. Stop with the 1-3 hits of skills being guard or armor. [High Priority]

5. Fix current stealth bugs, maybe add evasion or movement speed buff. [High-to-Medium Priority]

6. Add down smash and crit chance to Mach Explosion. [Low-to-Medium Priority]

7. Add Increase Grip skill to class. [Medium Priority]

8. Even out kit damage so we're less reliant on Serpent. [Low Priority]

9. Increase the chance to cc on all of our skills. Having 1-cc-hits on our skills is very lackluster. [High Priority]

10. Fix all the current class bugs. [High Priority

 

If you have anything to add, let me know and I'll update the thread.

Last Updated 4/19/2017

The first one with i frames and log jumps is I agree on it, happends to me in 80 percent of the pvp. I block jump and dude spams ability, I'm instantly dead.

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Posted

Please add:

Successful wood blocks that teleport behind a target sometimes makes you face away from the target (your back is up against the target). The correct behavior is to have you face the target when successfully teleporting behind them.

[Tested and confirmed, needs more data

I experience this first hand and have seen it on stream from ninjas in korea's server. I'd also consider it complete BS because if you do awaken grab right after the TP, you waste your grab and are put into a long ass 18 second cooldown simply because of the dev's incompetence

I think this a failed log block. I've had it happen before, too, and I've always dismissed it as failed block jump.. I'll test and add this to the post later tonight when I get home if this is correct. Thank you.

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Posted (edited)

I think this a failed log block. I've had it happen before, too, and I've always dismissed it as failed block jump.. I'll test and add this to the post later tonight when I get home if this is correct. Thank you.

I don't think so because:

1. I teleported behind the enemy (but of course I am not facing the enemy, which is the bug)

2. The enemy is stiffed by the wood block

From what I understand, a failed block jump is one where you don't teleport and reappear at your original location

Edited by Instinct

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Posted (edited)

I don't think so because:

1. I teleported behind the enemy (but of course I am not facing the enemy, which is the bug)

2. The enemy is stiffed by the wood block

From what I understand, a failed block jump is one where you don't teleport and reappear at your original location

You're correct. I reread the original post. I've encountered the bug maybe once or twice and forgot about it existing. If you reappear in the same spot but face the opposite direction, it's a failed block jump.

Updated the post.

Edited by Xenon

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