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I'd like to get to PVP, but you've put it behind the biggest PVE grindwall ever constructed.

295 posts in this topic

Posted

You can't say "that is not what the game is about", I covered that It my reply to Leuphe above the reply i'm currently quoting. You can say "this is what the game currently is".

You then follow up with more opinions "laughed out of town" etc..

And the last point you're making : Why is it easy because it is PVP? It might take even more time to grind gear via PVP, who knows? It all depends how It is implemented; also, getting gear isn't difficult via PVE, it is just time consuming. You could say it is difficult in the sense that you need the willpower to sift through the tedium, but then the question becomes, how is that fun?

Let me explain what challenging PVE really looks like, "challenge" being the keyword : Imagine a game like dark souls, many regard that as challenging, and aside from invaders, it is all PVE. Grinding is not required, the entire game can be done without leveling once, but to overcome the environment, you have to learn, and adapt. In BDO, you do not have to learn or adapt, you just grind the mobs out endlessly until you have the gear, and hope RNG is one your side. Am I saying PVE should be like Darksouls? No,  i'm merely pointing out what challenging PVE looks like. The closest thing you get to challenging PVE on here is the world bosses.

You currently PVE to PVP, i'm suggesting a way to PVP to PVP, that is all.

The entirety of your argument is "I want it this way," so allow me to offer my final argument that holds equal weight.

I do not.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not saying it's fair. I'm saying it's the game.

Look, you want "fairness" in this game because right now, as someone who doesn't want to grind, you want to still play. That's not fair to you. I get that, but that's not what this game is about and you aren't entitled to fairness in every single way that you want it. Suggest it to PA, Daum, whatever, but when people respond with "This would ruin the game" and all you respond with is "No it wouldn't", you're gonna get laughed out of town. At least own up to what you're suggesting.

Like, your attempt at debunking what I'm saying is retarded. "WELL WHAT IF THEY ADDED POTATO GUNS TO THE PVP ARENAS? THAT'D RUIN IT TOO." The atmosphere is that there is no easy method to obtain gear, no linear progression that comes in the form of PvP satchels or PvP currencies or battlegrounds that give exp. You PvE to PvP.

 

tenor.gif

Yeah, nevermind. Your points are literally just "I want it this way so I should be represented and my feefees are valid. Let me playyyyyy the way I want!"

Your last line basically just says "THAT PERSON HAS AN OPINION!". Which is odd, because you also have an opinion, and you've also been expressing it..I feel some self awareness could go a long way for a lot of people on this thread...

The entirety of your argument is "I want it this way," so allow me to offer my final argument that holds equal weight.

I do not.

Yes, I have been expressing opinions. Like everyone else who has posted in this thread... Your point?

The funny thing is, your only argument for saying PVP progression shouldn't be in the game boils down to " It would ruin the atmosphere!". Which I've already proven is baseless, and just as valid as me saying "It would improve the atmosphere!"

Put up or shut up ;)

As I thought, you can't think of a reason that hasn't already been flawed, can you?

Edited by Octia

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Posted (edited)

Your last line basically just says "THAT PERSON HAS AN OPINION!". Which is odd, because you also have an opinion, and you've also been expressing it..I feel some self awareness could go a long way for a lot of people on this thread...

Yes, I have been expressing opinions. Like everyone else who has posted in this thread... Your point?

Mostly because your view of things is circular and completely useless for any sort of meaningful discussion that may make changes. "Everyone has an opinion, everyone is entitled to having that opinion be made a reality in the game because opinions are valid, my opinion is valid even though I won't say how much experience I have in the thing I'm talking so vehemently about, anyone who complains about someone else complaining is just complaining themselves. Which amounts to: don't discuss this if you're against it because I'll just tell you my opinion is valid and you're only trying to discredit my opinion with your opinion."

That, my friend, is the epitome of useless discussion and whining.

 

Edited by Cardiel
Added quotations because apparently context is unimportant.
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Posted (edited)

Mostly because your view of things is circular and completely useless for any sort of meaningful discussion that may make changes. Everyone has an opinion, everyone is entitled to having that opinion be made a reality in the game because opinions are valid, my opinion is valid even though I won't say how much experience I have in the thing I'm talking so vehemently about, anyone who complains about someone else complaining is just complaining themselves. Which amounts to: don't discuss this if you're against it because I'll just tell you my opinion is valid and you're only trying to discredit my opinion with your opinion.

That, my friend, is the epitome of useless discussion and whining.

 

You're the one who played the opinion card first, and now you don't like it when I use it against you?

You've given your reasons it is a bad idea, I've given my reasons it is a good idea; what else is there? It is for the devs to decide what to do with that information (if they read the thread that is) and for people to use the information in the thread to share their own opinions on the things that have been said.

Edited by Octia

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Posted

You're the one who played the opinion card first, and now you don't like it when I use it against you?

You've given your reasons it is a bad idea, I've given my reasons it is a good idea; what else is there? It is for the devs to decide what to do with that information (if they read the thread that is) and for people to use the information in the thread to share their own opinions on the things that have been said.

No, you're misunderstanding my post. Again. I'm not saying that those things are my views. They're things you've said.

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Posted (edited)

No, you're misunderstanding my post. Again. I'm not saying that those things are my views. They're things you've said.

It is your view on what I said. Also, you mention it is a "useless" discussion, but that is relative to the person now isn't it?

Edited by Octia

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Posted

It is your view on what I said. Also, you mention it is a "useless" discussion, but that is relative to the person now isn't it?

Yes, you're right. I don't expect you to hold the same values as I do.

The useful sort.

So we can agree to disagree.

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Posted

The atmosphere is that there is no easy method to obtain gear, no linear progression that comes in the form of PvP satchels or PvP currencies or battlegrounds that give exp.

I know Octia has already commented on this, but I just want to mention it again. If your entire "atmosphere" argument is based on gear and leveling requiring some sort of effort, then it is just a case of you misunderstanding the points OP is making. He never said he wanted it easy. Let that sink in for a moment. Different does not mean easy. It could be more difficult depending on the implementation. Would PvP based progression that is slower and harder than PvE grind ruin your atmosphere? If so, how? Or are you just opposed to adding any kind of alternative to the current ways of playing the game? In which case, are you also against any other changes, such as addition of new classes (it lets people play in different way that weren't available before) or areas on the map?

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Posted

Different does not mean easy. It could be more difficult depending on the implementation. Would PvP based progression that is slower and harder than PvE grind ruin your atmosphere? If so, how? Or are you just opposed to adding any kind of alternative to the current ways of playing the game? In which case, are you also against any other changes, such as addition of new classes (it lets people play in different way that weren't available before) or areas on the map?

Probably bait but I'll bite,

Different you say? The problem with this is that it'd either 1: devalue the time already put in by people so far, which would make bdo lose a LOT of players, way more than those it'd gain by implementing such a system OR 2: it'd give players the possibility to somehow switch their pve gear for pvp gear when first introduced, to make sure that those who wanna pvp would have pvp gear instead of pve gear without having to devalue the time they've already put in, in which case we'd have the same problem we have now: those who've put in more time would still have better gear. So in the end you're stuck with 2 quite terrible alternatives. 

Also, how exactly does adding a new area to the map change how you play in the slightest? :S A class I get but a new area? Really? How exactly?

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Posted (edited)

This thread hits the nail on the head, there is soo little PvP content and the PvE content is indeed way too tiresome and solo. We need more PvP content and more incentives to do PvP in general, so many people have no point in further playing after reaching 500+ AP/DP and level 60.

Edited by Judaism

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Posted (edited)

I'm saying this because OP REFUSES to show us his progress. For all we know he could be a level 50 wanting to PvP vs the top level players. Which this is not the game for.

And no, "experience is not sufficient/you are not an expert or knowledge about the subject" IS NOT ad hominem, ffs. That is LITERALLY the definition of ethos, one of the three pillars of making a good argumentative essay.

Please educate yourself about ethos here, look at the examples:

http://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-ethos-logos-and-pathos.html

appeals to ethos have nothing to do with the logical viability of an argument—they are entirely independent of whether or not an argument is logically sound. aristotle's modes of persuasion are classifications of rhetorical tools (not logical ones). you're completely misusing said classifications. arguments from authority are not deductive, and can very well be ad-hominem. your demand for his character sheet or whatever as a judgement for the logical viability of his argument is ad hominem; it is a rebuttal of his argument not performed by addressing its contents, but by attacking who the argument is coming from.

yes, if he said "i have 5 level 70 characters who make up the top 5 pvpers"—this persuasive tool can be classified as ethos, but just because you demand of him a particular form of ethos does not mean that your demands (and ensuing dismissal of his argument) aren't ad-hominem. further, just because you can call it "ethos" doesn't mean it's reasonable, sensible, or logical. again, the modes of persuasion are classifications of rhetoric, not tools for logical analysis.

you should reeeeaaaaally make sure you're educated in the subject that you so condescendingly say "educate yourself" about

Edited by AmagicalFishy
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Posted

Probably bait but I'll bite,

Different you say? The problem with this is that it'd either 1: devalue the time already put in by people so far, which would make bdo lose a LOT of players, way more than those it'd gain by implementing such a system OR 2: it'd give players the possibility to somehow switch their pve gear for pvp gear when first introduced, to make sure that those who wanna pvp would have pvp gear instead of pve gear without having to devalue the time they've already put in, in which case we'd have the same problem we have now: those who've put in more time would still have better gear. So in the end you're stuck with 2 quite terrible alternatives. 

Also, how exactly does adding a new area to the map change how you play in the slightest? :S A class I get but a new area? Really? How exactly?

WAT? How on Earth would adding an alternative way to progress devalue the time someone already put in? How?! Do you even logic? Oh wait, you are another one of those who can't read and thinks that "alternative way to progress" means "instant easy PEN Ogres for everyone"? If so, go back and read the post you've just quoted.

2. How is that even relevant at all? Nobody is suggesting to remove the ability to PVE, so why would you need to throw away your PVE gear? Also, it's not like you need a completely different set of gear, adjusting that is easy. Nobody said that those who put in more time shouldn't have better gear. OP suggested gear brackets if I remember right and/or lowering the effect of gear scaling (but not removing it) which is tbh needed regardless of any changes that could theoretically happen.

> Also, how exactly does adding a new area to the map change how you play in the slightest?

Um, there is an area you couldn't go to previously because it didn't exist, but now it does so you go there and do stuff you didn't previously do? Or you ignore it altogether, which would not change how you play. But then the same could be said about the gladiator profession proposed by the OP, if you ignore its existence and grind on, it will not change how you play in the slightest. So what's the problem here?

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Posted

 

For those who just want pvp, there should be an option. Oh, and for goodness sake fix the gear scaling; someone has a certain amount of gearscore, and suddenly you can't scratch them? What? How is that fun for anyone? Yes. It is fun that someone can just stand still and take no damage because they started playing the game before you... .

You don't have it so the person with better gear is basically immune, you make it so he has a slight adantage; to the point where he still has to use a functioning brain to be able to stay alive; make it so people with terrible gear are at a disadvantage, but not so much of a disadvantage that they can't even consider participating in pvp until they have near the best gear in the game

Since you wont prove gs we have to make an estimated guess based on what youve said so far, and based on what youve said you are sub 200 ap, meaning you are sub average pvper,makes sense you think people can be immune. 

so since you are below average for the field you wish to talk your opinion means less.  do you trust a homeless guy talking about law as much as a lawyer?

come back with viable solutions before making a complaint thread , or as i said the purpose of your thread otherwise is to purposely create toxicity

better yet come back with an average pvp gs, average pvp gs can kill even 500gs ,lawl @ immune.  no wonder your perception isnt x oneshots x , youve never pvped an average pvper. lol im off to bed. enjoy your upside down dream land.        ,,,,,,,btw on tablet atm so hard to quote but cardiel you had me rolling laughin with that porkchop analogy ,good shiz .

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Posted

pvp in this game sucks ass lol

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Posted (edited)

appeals to ethos have nothing to do with the logical viability of an argument—they are entirely independent of whether or not an argument is logically sound. aristotle's modes of persuasion are classifications of rhetorical tools (not logical ones). you're completely misusing said classifications. arguments from authority are not deductive, and can very well be ad-hominem. your demand for his character sheet or whatever as a judgement for the logical viability of his argument is ad hominem; it is a rebuttal of his argument not performed by addressing its contents, but by attacking who the argument is coming from.

yes, if he said "i have 5 level 70 characters who make up the top 5 pvpers"—this persuasive tool can be classified as ethos, but just because you demand of him a particular form of ethos does not mean that your demands (and ensuing dismissal of his argument) aren't ad-hominem. further, just because you can call it "ethos" doesn't mean it's reasonable, sensible, or logical. again, the modes of persuasion are classifications of rhetoric, not tools for logical analysis.

you should reeeeaaaaally make sure you're educated in the subject that you so condescendingly say "educate yourself" about

And in this case, his argument is not logically sound either. But to address the rest... We could pick out twenty example of fallacies OP has done, so I don't think it's exactly unfair to ask for his character sheet. PLUS, not once have I said WHY. I was not planning to incorporate it into an argument, but to see what OP is even talking about. This means you're making a fallacy by assuming my position without me clarifying, no?

IMO, There is no logic to his argument to use as a base. It's a sinking ship with a child inside demanding that we fix his ship for him and has no room for discussion.

And PS, yes, ethos CAN be a very important argumentative tool when the base of the argument is based on opinion and emotion. Ethos says "listen to me for I have a certain level of authority". Facts aren't a part of this thread, and no solutions have been proposed/discussed... There is no logic here. So how can we talk about how anything else?

 

Edited by Leuphe

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Posted

I hear the OP's pain, and I concur, there is a HUGE PvE grind wall between most people and PvP.

But, I disagree with the OP's comment on why people stay. The OP was suggesting its the aesthetics of the game that keeps people playing. And things like the market place of the game being bad. The game has literally too much to do, and people (including me) are staying for it. My newest endeavors include trying to get my Eperia Sailboat, and a Tier 8 horse, which will take me lots of effort, and will help in pvp; This of course take me back to the OP's main thrust being the PvE grind wall needed for PvP, and its HUGE, not just gear and level and money for gear, but also things like mounts, the Epheria Sailbat, Gathering mats and training workers to make stun mines, or cannon balls. Gathering of mats to make elixirs and potions and food.

At some point, whether gear/level is handed out (the soft cap on XP gains from pve to level for example), people with Tier 8 mounts and say all +10 enhanced horse gear, are going to TRASH those with measly Tier 3 mounts. So, either the game will have to soft cap mounts, and their gear, or the HUGE PvE wall the Op mentions will still remain. And then likewise, any other PvE grind power, like having TONS of space to store stun mines, would have to be soft capped, so new player would have a chance against someone with endless stun traps, and then elixirs, potions, food, barricades, and so one.

What is the solution? I can dare say, it's not BALANCE MONGERING like how WoW does it, that is for sure.

 

 

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Posted

WAT? How on Earth would adding an alternative way to progress devalue the time someone already put in? How?! Do you even logic? Oh wait, you are another one of those who can't read and thinks that "alternative way to progress" means "instant easy PEN Ogres for everyone"? If so, go back and read the post you've just quoted.

2. How is that even relevant at all? Nobody is suggesting to remove the ability to PVE, so why would you need to throw away your PVE gear? Also, it's not like you need a completely different set of gear, adjusting that is easy. Nobody said that those who put in more time shouldn't have better gear. OP suggested gear brackets if I remember right and/or lowering the effect of gear scaling (but not removing it) which is tbh needed regardless of any changes that could theoretically happen.

> Also, how exactly does adding a new area to the map change how you play in the slightest?

Um, there is an area you couldn't go to previously because it didn't exist, but now it does so you go there and do stuff you didn't previously do? Or you ignore it altogether, which would not change how you play. But then the same could be said about the gladiator profession proposed by the OP, if you ignore its existence and grind on, it will not change how you play in the slightest. So what's the problem here?

Let's start from the bottom.... No. Unless the MAP somehow added a new FUNCTION, it doesn't affect HOW you play in the slightest. You could life skill before it, you could grind before it, you could RP before it (triggerwarning @Dremlock :D), you could pvp before it and the list goes on. Unless the area explicitly gives you a new WAY of playing you're not affected in the slightest. If it was a new Life skill tied only to that region, fair enough. 

 

Jesus... you seem to not understand a thing... 95% of the pvp players have grinded for the PvP aspects. Not the pve. If you suddenly introduce a system (I'll be assuming here) that gives everyone a pvp gear/system with everyone starting from 0, you don't think you're devaluing all the hours those who have gear rn have put in to be able to pvp?

If you mean a different system, feel free to mention and describe it :)

Urgh.. "How on Earth would adding an alternative way to progress devalue the time someone already put in?"... Do you even think before you type? You mention the answer to your own question IN the question. "devalue the time someone has ALREADY PUT IN". Get it? By making an alternative way now you'd basically be going "well, we all know you've grinded for endless hours to where you are now so.... HERE'S A NEW WAY, BECAUSE SCREW YOU!". It'd be like if they raised the soft level cap to 62. How the hell do you think those who've grinded for weeks, if not months to get to 62 now would feel? You don't think they'd be "----- this, I'm out"? -_-.

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Posted

Since you wont prove gs we have to make an estimated guess based on what youve said so far, and based on what youve said you are sub 200 ap, meaning you are sub average pvper,makes sense you think people can be immune. 

so since you are below average for the field you wish to talk your opinion means less.  do you trust a homeless guy talking about law as much as a lawyer?

come back with viable solutions before making a complaint thread , or as i said the purpose of your thread otherwise is to purposely create toxicity

better yet come back with an average pvp gs, average pvp gs can kill even 500gs ,lawl @ immune.  no wonder your perception isnt x oneshots x , youve never pvped an average pvper. lol im off to bed. enjoy your upside down dream land.        ,,,,,,,btw on tablet atm so hard to quote but cardiel you had me rolling laughin with that porkchop analogy ,good shiz .

This again... Why don't you actually go and read the OP and explain exactly which part of the argument requires some kind of extensive knowledge or experience? You can do what you're doing when someone makes a claim that requires a certain level of expertise, but they do it without proper justification. For example if OP said "wizard is underpowered because when I play wizard and when I fight I always die", you could ask for his level or gear score, because clearly the experience of a lv50 player with 80 AP wouldn't be representative of the "proper" gameplay.

In this discussion though, nowhere does OP say anything that goes beyond common knowledge that anyone who has played for over two weeks would possess. The only things that are debatable are those where his level or gear are of no significance whatsoever (e.g. whether the game would die if there was another one with similar qualities etc). To use your homeless guy vs lawyer analogy against you, if the homeless guy told you "it is wrong to kill innocent people", would this be questionable just because he isn't a lawyer?

He also provided a viable solution, have you read the suggestions of a gladiator profession?

Let's start from the bottom.... No. Unless the MAP somehow added a new FUNCTION, it doesn't affect HOW you play in the slightest. You could life skill before it, you could grind before it, you could RP before it (triggerwarning @Dremlock :D), you could pvp before it and the list goes on. Unless the area explicitly gives you a new WAY of playing you're not affected in the slightest. If it was a new Life skill tied only to that region, fair enough.

Valencia added desert trade buff which is a new function. Now what?

Jesus... you seem to not understand a thing... 95% of the pvp players have grinded for the PvP aspects. Not the pve. If you suddenly introduce a system (I'll be assuming here) that gives everyone a pvp gear/system with everyone starting from 0, you don't think you're devaluing all the hours those who have gear rn have put in to be able to pvp?

If you mean a different system, feel free to mention and describe it :)

Urgh.. "How on Earth would adding an alternative way to progress devalue the time someone already put in?"... Do you even think before you type? You mention the answer to your own question IN the question. "devalue the time someone has ALREADY PUT IN". Get it? By making an alternative way now you'd basically be going "well, we all know you've grinded for endless hours to where you are now so.... HERE'S A NEW WAY, BECAUSE SCREW YOU!". It'd be like if they raised the soft level cap to 62. How the hell do you think those who've grinded for weeks, if not months to get to 62 now would feel? You don't think they'd be "----- this, I'm out"? -_-.

ARE YOU MOTHER-----ING KIDDING ME?!

Did you even read a single word in the entire -----ing thread? Who the ----- said anything about everyone starting from 0??

Let me break this down to you, with a simple example - imagine a battleground similar to RBF or maybe with less numbers say 3v3-5v5. You join with your regular gear. It should be gear and level bracketed of course, say you are level 58 with 410gs, so you join the one for levels 58-59 and 390-420gs. Play and if you win you get a reward package that grants you some combat exp, skill exp, silver (like completing quests does) and maybe an rng box for some items like black stones. If you lose you get a small amount of the same stuff and no rng box. Nobody said anything about any kind of special gear or new level system where everyone starts from scratch. When you said "PVE gear" I thought you meant stuff like helmets with exp crystals or kutum... underestimating the level of ignorance that some can have.

> By making an alternative way now you'd basically be going "well, we all know you've grinded for endless hours to where you are now so.... HERE'S A NEW WAY, BECAUSE SCREW YOU!"

Do you know what alternative means? Protip: it doesn't mean "let's -----ing delete everything that was done before". But go and google it anyway.

Also, level soft cap was raised before and will be raised again, eventually it will be at 62 if the game survives long enough. Now what?

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Posted

This could be avoided by simply not allowing you to pick your opponent.

 

Then why would I bother to even bother with open world PvP? Why bother going to arena to duel or anything. Just go to the (probably) "instanced" pvp arena or w.e. Unless you want to implement some rank system there's little incentive to do any other forms of PvP aside from this "instanced" pvp with exp and money gain or node wars.

Also does Node wars count as not picking your opponent? What if I had an ally for the node war and we just purposely grinded off each other :D.

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Posted

 

Let me break this down to you, with a simple example - imagine a battleground similar to RBF or maybe with less numbers say 3v3-5v5. You join with your regular gear. It should be gear and level bracketed of course, say you are level 58 with 410gs, so you join the one for levels 58-59 and 390-420gs. Play and if you win you get a reward package that grants you some combat exp, skill exp, silver (like completing quests does) and maybe an rng box for some items like black stones. If you lose you get a small amount of the same stuff and no rng box. Nobody said anything about any kind of special gear or new level system where everyone starts from scratch. When you said "PVE gear" I thought you meant stuff like helmets with exp crystals or kutum... underestimating the level of ignorance that some can have.

Pretty much the tl;dr of this thread for those feeling challenged by reading ( @aidlac take the hint :D).

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Posted

oh the little comments ive read, i have gathered one answer.

 

apparently "this isnt a pvp game" eventhough pvp is the only endgame content we have at this point. 

and that alot of the community is fine with a broken pvp system becouse theyre carebears.

 

I play kuno. kill me.

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Devs put pvp behind a grind wall for the simple reason that they don't want out of the ratio time vs game development vs free players loyalty but all the powers to p2w of course, a slow game progression curve means more time to develop new content that only those who passed the gearscore or credit card benchmark will enjoy and the rest will have to play RNG games 

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And in this case, his argument is not logically sound either. But to address the rest... We could pick out twenty example of fallacies OP has done, so I don't think it's exactly unfair to ask for his character sheet. PLUS, not once have I said WHY. I was not planning to incorporate it into an argument, but to see what OP is even talking about. This means you're making a fallacy by assuming my position without me clarifying, no?

IMO, There is no logic to his argument to use as a base. It's a sinking ship with a child inside demanding that we fix his ship for him and has no room for discussion.

And PS, yes, ethos CAN be a very important argumentative tool when the base of the argument is based on opinion and emotion. Ethos says "listen to me for I have a certain level of authority". Facts aren't a part of this thread, and no solutions have been proposed/discussed... There is no logic here. So how can we talk about how anything else?

 

  • i am not interested in the whole "he also used logical fallacies" argument, because it's irrelevant.
  • assuming your position is not a fallacy when the assumption is appropriate. (why the ----- does everyone on the internet throw around these words without knowing what they are). in multiple posts you defended the "your opinion is invalid because you don't have enough experience" (the experience you would gauge by looking at his character sheet) stance. it is by no means a fallacy to thusly assume this is the stance you hold. if you want to clarify further, then do so
  • it looks to me like there was room enough for 10+ pages of discussion
  • i never said what is classified by "ethos" can't be an important argumentative tool—i said that it was not, and never will be a means of logical analysis. it is a classification of rhetoric.
  • you keep asking things like "how can we talk about anything else?" but many people are doing it, over the course of 10+ pages. you're sitting there going "show me your character sheet or wtf!!" while ignoring what he's actually saying. it's fully possible to discuss something in a rational, logical manner, without either party being an expert or invoking arguments of authority, when the subject itself isn't a direct, immediate matter of propositional logic. i've had many tame, logical discussions about very abstract, and very controversial things. logic can, and should be applied to everything.
  • in short: the position "there's no logic therefore i need to determine your credibility based on your character sheet" is silly
  • you're silly
  • bad job

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Posted (edited)

  • i am not interested in the whole "he also used logical fallacies" argument, because it's irrelevant.
  • assuming your position is not a fallacy when the assumption is appropriate. (why the ----- does everyone on the internet throw around these words without knowing what they are). in multiple posts you defended the "your opinion is invalid because you don't have enough experience" (the experience you would gauge by looking at his character sheet) stance. it is by no means a fallacy to thusly assume this is the stance you hold. if you want to clarify further, then do so
  • it looks to me like there was room enough for 10+ pages of discussion
  • i never said what is classified by "ethos" can't be an important argumentative tool—i said that it was not, and never will be a means of logical analysis. it is a classification of rhetoric.
  • you keep asking things like "how can we talk about anything else?" but many people are doing it, over the course of 10+ pages. you're sitting there going "show me your character sheet or wtf!!" while ignoring what he's actually saying. it's fully possible to discuss something in a rational, logical manner, without either party being an expert or invoking arguments of authority, when the subject itself isn't a direct, immediate matter of propositional logic. i've had many tame, logical discussions about very abstract, and very controversial things. logic can, and should be applied to everything.
  • in short: the position "there's no logic therefore i need to determine your credibility based on your character sheet" is silly
  • you're silly
  • bad job

LMAO, alright. Way to address literally nothing.

There's 10 pages of this shit because we're trying to get the OP to understand a different point of view. Look at most of the posts, there's 40% people explaining to the OP, 40% OP whining and refusing to, and 20% other.

THERE IS NO LOGIC. OP REFUSES TO LOOK AT LOGIC. So to get to a point where we can discuss something I want to see his character sheet (as do quite a few others in this thread). How are we to discuss anything when there's no logic base? Thus he has to convince us other ways.

I'm done with you because all you seem to want to do is just go "yeah but FALLACY" doing the same thing as the OP and ignoring other people.

Edited by Leuphe

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