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191 posts in this topic

Posted

come find me big boy.  I am on from 8-10:30 pacific.  Whisper Columba.

Post the results...please.

This outta be good either way.

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Posted

Sorry.  Not posting a guild name or messaging outside of game.  If you really want to declare on my guild, grow a pair and reach out to me in game.

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Karma bombing does exist for the reasons I said.  No you can't claim an area, but you can (or not) respect the area that someone is already farming/grinding.  If the area is large enough for more than 1 person the option to party is there.  To just grind over someone without saying anything IS an act of disrespect.  Now at that point no one is forcing you to flag up and kill them, but if you do not, the other person was griefing and won.  So the chose is yours, be pushed out of the area you were already at, or flag up and fight for your spot.  This is where the karma bombing comes in, because if the griefer see's this person is willing to flag up, they'll keep coming back and torment them.  That is why it should be diminishing karma loss when repeatedly killing the same person.  That way you can effectively fight off a griefer.  If the PK'er is the one griefing and trying to grind over you, you would still be able to bomb him, and you could make him go red if you brought a friend.  Or, you could try to fight him off, realize you are in a losing battle and it's time to move along or change channels.  At least that way everyone has a chance.

Karma bombing doesn't exist.  Nobody can make you lose karma. If you want to use a nick name for someone that keeps flagging up and loosing karma then call it Karmakaze. 

It isn't greifing if another player kills mobs in the same area you are grinding in.  If they kill mobs that you have already damaged then it's griefing.  Karma system works just fine.  No change needed.

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Posted

Karma bombing doesn't exist.  Nobody can make you lose karma. If you want to use a nick name for someone that keeps flagging up and loosing karma then call it Karmakaze. 
It isn't greifing if another player kills mobs in the same area you are grinding in.  If they kill mobs that you have already damaged then it's griefing.  Karma system works just fine.  No change needed.

Why would we need to rename something you say doesn't exist in the first place?  I think karma bombing works fine and I think the rest of the people who experience it would agree, since that seems to be the already agreed upon term being used.  You think it's only griefing if they jump on the mobs you are currently hitting?  How is it any less griefing to jump in front of where you are and keep killing the mobs in front of you as you are trying to level or farm?  I'm sure your reply would be to find another spot or change channels, lol.  That's how the griefer wins, by making you leave.  Do you even understand how any of this works, because you don't seem to grasp on the concept of whats being discussed.  Karma system needs adjustment.

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Posted

Msg a known karma griefer...... lets see how that goes. Guild name

coward.  you never tried to find me.  lol.  what are you afraid up, tough guy!?

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Posted (edited)

Why would we need to rename something you say doesn't exist in the first place?  I think karma bombing works fine and I think the rest of the people who experience it would agree, since that seems to be the already agreed upon term being used.  You think it's only griefing if they jump on the mobs you are currently hitting?  How is it any less griefing to jump in front of where you are and keep killing the mobs in front of you as you are trying to level or farm?  I'm sure your reply would be to find another spot or change channels, lol.  That's how the griefer wins, by making you leave.  Do you even understand how any of this works, because you don't seem to grasp on the concept of whats being discussed.  Karma system needs adjustment.

It should be renamed because karma bombing doesn't exist.  Nobody bombs you or makes you loose karma.  If you loose karma it's because you did it to yourself. Call it what it is: karmakaze.  It isn't griefing because they have every right to kill the mobs in the same area that you are grinding in.  YOU don't get to make the rules. 

I grasp the concept but I also realize that it is only an emotional response and not a logical one.  Karma bombing only exist in the minds of those people making such claims. 

There is absolutely no difference between one player killing those mobs and another player killing them. Other people could make the exact same argument that if they come along to grind some mobs and you keep killing them because you think you own the area then you are the one griefing them to make them leave.  See, it's the same one way or the other.  Neither of which is griefing; they are simply out grinding you.  Kill stealing (killing a mob that another player has damaged), on the other hand, has long been accepted as a form of griefing going all the way back to the beginning of MMORPGs.

Let me explain this in a way that perhaps YOU can grasp.  Lets say you go to the local national forest to pick berries.  The forest is a common area and anyone can pick the berries if they want.  While you are picking the berries some other player comes along and also starts picking berries.  You yell over to him that you were there first (spot taken).  He yells back "so what you don't own them".  This pisses you off so you pull out a gun and blow him away.  Who do you think would be in the wrong and will be punished?

And, if you murder another player then you are a criminal and loose karma.  The more times you murder another player the more karma you loose.  Just in case you don't grasp the concept of murder in a game I'll quote from the official BDO website (bold added for emphasis):

Karma refers to the alignment system which affects your relationship to players and NPC’s, in regards to PvP. You gain karma by killing monsters. When you initiate open world PvP, or flag on another player, you lose karma for assaulting that player. If you strike a death blow, you lose more karma for murder. If you go below 0 karma, you are permanently flagged until you raise your karma, and NPC guards will kill you on sight.

Edit:  Quote can be found here.

Edited by ronniejw
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Posted

Karmacide!

 

 

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Posted

It should be renamed because karma bombing doesn't exist.  Nobody bombs you or makes you loose karma.  If you loose karma it's because you did it to yourself. Call it what it is: karmakaze.  It isn't griefing because they have every right to kill the mobs in the same area that you are grinding in.  YOU don't get to make the rules. 

I grasp the concept but I also realize that it is only an emotional response and not a logical one.  Karma bombing only exist in the minds of those people making such claims. 

There is absolutely no difference between one player killing those mobs and another player killing them. Other people could make the exact same argument that if they come along to grind some mobs and you keep killing them because you think you own the area then you are the one griefing them to make them leave.  See, it's the same one way or the other.  Neither of which is griefing; they are simply out grinding you.  Kill stealing (killing a mob that another player has damaged), on the other hand, has long been accepted as a form of griefing going all the way back to the beginning of MMORPGs.

Let me explain this in a way that perhaps YOU can grasp.  Lets say you go to the local national forest to pick berries.  The forest is a common area and anyone can pick the berries if they want.  While you are picking the berries some other player comes along and also starts picking berries.  You yell over to him that you were there first (spot taken).  He yells back "so what you don't own them".  This pisses you off so you pull out a gun and blow him away.  Who do you think would be in the wrong and will be punished?

And, if you murder another player then you are a criminal and loose karma.  The more times you murder another player the more karma you loose.  Just in case you don't grasp the concept of murder in a game I'll quote from the official BDO website (bold added for emphasis):

Karma refers to the alignment system which affects your relationship to players and NPC’s, in regards to PvP. You gain karma by killing monsters. When you initiate open world PvP, or flag on another player, you lose karma for assaulting that player. If you strike a death blow, you lose more karma for murder. If you go below 0 karma, you are permanently flagged until you raise your karma, and NPC guards will kill you on sight.

Edit:  Quote can be found here.

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Posted (edited)

It should be renamed because karma bombing doesn't exist.  Nobody bombs you or makes you loose karma.  If you loose karma it's because you did it to yourself. Call it what it is: karmakaze.  It isn't griefing because they have every right to kill the mobs in the same area that you are grinding in.  YOU don't get to make the rules. 

I grasp the concept but I also realize that it is only an emotional response and not a logical one.  Karma bombing only exist in the minds of those people making such claims. 

There is absolutely no difference between one player killing those mobs and another player killing them. Other people could make the exact same argument that if they come along to grind some mobs and you keep killing them because you think you own the area then you are the one griefing them to make them leave.  See, it's the same one way or the other.  Neither of which is griefing; they are simply out grinding you.  Kill stealing (killing a mob that another player has damaged), on the other hand, has long been accepted as a form of griefing going all the way back to the beginning of MMORPGs.

Let me explain this in a way that perhaps YOU can grasp.  Lets say you go to the local national forest to pick berries.  The forest is a common area and anyone can pick the berries if they want.  While you are picking the berries some other player comes along and also starts picking berries.  You yell over to him that you were there first (spot taken).  He yells back "so what you don't own them".  This pisses you off so you pull out a gun and blow him away.  Who do you think would be in the wrong and will be punished?

And, if you murder another player then you are a criminal and loose karma.  The more times you murder another player the more karma you loose.  Just in case you don't grasp the concept of murder in a game I'll quote from the official BDO website (bold added for emphasis):

Karma refers to the alignment system which affects your relationship to players and NPC’s, in regards to PvP. You gain karma by killing monsters. When you initiate open world PvP, or flag on another player, you lose karma for assaulting that player. If you strike a death blow, you lose more karma for murder. If you go below 0 karma, you are permanently flagged until you raise your karma, and NPC guards will kill you on sight.

Edit:  Quote can be found here.

Your logic says that no one can own a mob, so no one can "kill steal" even if I've already hit it, it doesn't belong to me.  Yet acknowledge the fact that it is griefing if someone kills mobs in your immediate presence.  Killing mobs immediately to my left or right (whichever direction I might be headed in) is just an extension of that same exact thing.  You seem to expect that someone already grinding/farming on a rotation should respect someone else who comes in and takes half the mobs they were farming away from them, effectively halving their progress in whatever it is they may be doing.  We should respect that person, but no respect is given towards the person already there doing the work?  Seems just a bit hypocritical if you ask me.

This is not real life, your comparison is woefully ignorant.  Both sides should respect each other is real answer and I've been saying that in this thread all along.  You don't seem to GRASP respect.  You seem to believe that respect should only be given to one party in this situation.

You quote that directly Black Desert Knowledge base yet you still can't GRASP how and why karmabombing works and is an ACTUAL thing in this game.

Here I'll throw a hypothetical scenario since you seem to like them, however mine will take place in game and not where you carry a pistol to picking berries (where the ----- do you live?!)  There is a mob rotation at Pirates that is typically for 1 person as it's not very big.  There is a level 58 Valkyrie farming there and suddenly a level 56 Wizard shows up and killing the same mobs the Valk is killing.  The Wizard doesn't stop there as it can kill much faster than the Valk and proceeds to just kill everything in that rotation.  That Wizard is griefing this Valk already.  You see there are inconsistencies with the classes, some can kill mobs much faster while others can kill players much faster or have stronger defense.  The Wizards goal here is to grind in this area as well and wants the Valk to leave, or maybe he kills the mobs so fast he doesn't even care the Valk is still here.  Either way, this Wizard is already griefing and if the Valk leaves, the Wizard has won.  Now this Valk could get defensive over this and flag up and kill this Wizard, by all rights it's allowed.  The Valk gets a momentary win.  However the Wizard comes back and starts all over again.  What is the Valk to do now?  The choice is the same, leave or flag up in an attempt to drive this griefer away.  The Valk kills the Wizard 6 times and is now either 0 karma or already negative and needs to regain karma and is forced to leave.  Again, the Wizard wins.  That is how karmabombing works.  No one forced the Valk to flag up.  So now tell me why that Valk should have just sulked her head and walked away, just because the Wizard can grind faster?  While this particular scenario is hypothetical, this exact thing happens in game all the time.

Going back to your last sentence in your first paragraph, "YOU don't get to make the rules", well...that's where you are wrong in an open world PvP game.  Players make all the rules.

P.S. - You didn't quote "murder" from the knowledge base, you quoted "karma" they are not the same thing.

 

 

I'm confused by what you highlighted since you advocated selfishness earlier.  Wouldn't that be the difference, that YOU wouldn't be the one killing the mobs and therefore need to be?

Edited by flukeSG2

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Posted

I only ever killed someone taking my spot if I had my daily up or like a week or so ago when a guildy asked me if I'd hold mountain spot for him while he grabbed some food. I had to kill two interlopers rather than let my guildy down B|

Otherwise I just try to outgrind them or make myself a nuisance in the hopes they opt to lose karma.

Unless it's a fellow Tamer in which case I am very polite and have even ceded the spot out of a sense of solidarity.

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Posted

Your logic says that no one can own a mob, so no one can "kill steal" even if I've already hit it, it doesn't belong to me.  Yet acknowledge the fact that it is griefing if someone kills mobs in your immediate presence.  Killing mobs immediately to my left or right (whichever direction I might be headed in) is just an extension of that same exact thing.  You seem to expect that someone already grinding/farming on a rotation should respect someone else who comes in and takes half the mobs they were farming away from them, effectively halving their progress in whatever it is they may be doing.  We should respect that person, but no respect is given towards the person already there doing the work?  Seems just a bit hypocritical if you ask me.

This is not real life, your comparison is woefully ignorant.  Both sides should respect each other is real answer and I've been saying that in this thread all along.  You don't seem to GRASP respect.  You seem to believe that respect should only be given to one party in this situation.

You quote that directly Black Desert Knowledge base yet you still can't GRASP how and why karmabombing works and is an ACTUAL thing in this game.

Here I'll throw a hypothetical scenario since you seem to like them, however mine will take place in game and not where you carry a pistol to picking berries (where the ----- do you live?!)  There is a mob rotation at Pirates that is typically for 1 person as it's not very big.  There is a level 58 Valkyrie farming there and suddenly a level 56 Wizard shows up and killing the same mobs the Valk is killing.  The Wizard doesn't stop there as it can kill much faster than the Valk and proceeds to just kill everything in that rotation.  That Wizard is griefing this Valk already.  You see there are inconsistencies with the classes, some can kill mobs much faster while others can kill players much faster or have stronger defense.  The Wizards goal here is to grind in this area as well and wants the Valk to leave, or maybe he kills the mobs so fast he doesn't even care the Valk is still here.  Either way, this Wizard is already griefing and if the Valk leaves, the Wizard has won.  Now this Valk could get defensive over this and flag up and kill this Wizard, by all rights it's allowed.  The Valk gets a momentary win.  However the Wizard comes back and starts all over again.  What is the Valk to do now?  The choice is the same, leave or flag up in an attempt to drive this griefer away.  The Valk kills the Wizard 6 times and is now either 0 karma or already negative and needs to regain karma and is forced to leave.  Again, the Wizard wins.  That is how karmabombing works.  No one forced the Valk to flag up.  So now tell me why that Valk should have just sulked her head and walked away, just because the Wizard can grind faster?  While this particular scenario is hypothetical, this exact thing happens in game all the time.

Going back to your last sentence in your first paragraph, "YOU don't get to make the rules", well...that's where you are wrong in an open world PvP game.  Players make all the rules.

P.S. - You didn't quote "murder" from the knowledge base, you quoted "karma" they are not the same thing.

 

I'm confused by what you highlighted since you advocated selfishness earlier.  Wouldn't that be the difference, that YOU wouldn't be the one killing the mobs and therefore need to be?

I am not going to spend my time teaching you how to read.

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Posted

what?

what?

samwell-what-what-in-the-butt.png

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Posted

I only ever killed someone taking my spot if I had my daily up or like a week or so ago when a guildy asked me if I'd hold mountain spot for him while he grabbed some food. I had to kill two interlopers rather than let my guildy down B|

Otherwise I just try to outgrind them or make myself a nuisance in the hopes they opt to lose karma.

Unless it's a fellow Tamer in which case I am very polite and have even ceded the spot out of a sense of solidarity.

didja gear up ye witch? thems great for outgrinding pretty much anyone

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Posted (edited)

Karma bombing doesn't exist.  Nobody can make you lose karma. If you want to use a nick name for someone that keeps flagging up and loosing karma then call it Karmakaze. 
It isn't greifing if another player kills mobs in the same area you are grinding in.  If they kill mobs that you have already damaged then it's griefing.  Karma system works just fine.  No change needed.

So when I'm leading a party of four guild lowbies around main rotation at Sausans and a solo wizard wanders up and starts killing mobs on that rotation when every other rotation on that channel is free and the only thing he types in General is "FU". Then what? I have two options. I can change channel and probably bully another bunch of lowbies of their rotation so we can finish or call in another trio of guildies to keep the griefer pinned to the node so our 55s and 56s can get their 200% in peace, all the while hoping he gets bored before they run out of karma.

This isn't even a hypothetical but a constant problem I've dealt with at overcrowded grind spots where griefers know they can always find people to mess with. I got no problem competing for Rotations against other guilds or dealing with people trying to pk our lowbies but the karma system absolutely does not work fine right now when griefers can do the above with absolute impunity.
 

Edited by Jayceka

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Posted (edited)

 

samwell-what-what-in-the-butt.png

this was a well executed meme. nice work. 

Edited by Dremlock

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Posted (edited)

So when I'm leading a party of four guild lowbies around main rotation at Sausans and a solo wizard wanders up and starts killing mobs on that rotation when every other rotation on that channel is free and the only thing he types in General is "FU". Then what? I have two options. I can change channel and probably bully another bunch of lowbies of their rotation so we can finish or call in another trio of guildies to keep the griefer pinned to the node so our 55s and 56s can get their 200% in peace, all the while hoping he gets bored before they run out of karma.

This isn't even a hypothetical but a constant problem I've dealt with at overcrowded grind spots where griefers know they can always find people to mess with. I got no problem competing for Rotations against other guilds or dealing with people trying to pk our lowbies but the karma system absolutely does not work fine right now when griefers can do the above with absolute impunity.
 

Imo this isn't a problem, it's.... the game. If u get upset bout these things  and want to change it then better play another game where mechanics are different. An example: Just recently i got killed by more higher levelled player (i think) cause he was in the same area as me and i was in his way i guess (he didn't say one word). Even though it was him who one shot the mobs and not me.  So he could have done his farm and i would prolly have given up. Of Course this killing for nothing (in my eyes) annoyed me (duh) so i went back on purpose to annoy him (normally i wouldn't do this since kinda wasting my time). Then another player higher level than me popped up in this area and teamed up with me. The assaulter from before left shortly after.

So, not gonna break my head over this. It's just the kind of things that happen. In this case it only motivates me to level faster so i can maybe kill the ----- later on in the game and at least these things give a break in the - sometimes - dullness of grinding. Also going red over someone and risk getting jailed is as well part of the game. If someone doesn't want to do this  cause it's risky that is their choice but the option is there. 

 

 

Edited by SaraX

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Posted (edited)

Sorry.  Not posting a guild name or messaging outside of game.  If you really want to declare on my guild, grow a pair and reach out to me in game.

Aww that sucks..all the talking, no action. You guys are a let down. I was looking forward to some forum tough guy brawling or maybe bawling.

 

Edited by Malifex Syxxx
Weird double post deleted

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Posted (edited)

Going back to your last sentence in your first paragraph, "YOU don't get to make the rules", well...that's where you are wrong in an open world PvP game.  Players make all the rules.

Then congratulations, you have just proven unequivocally that this game is not an open world PvP game.

But if they ever make Lord of the Flies: The MMORPG, I'll be sure to think of you while I watch the island burn.

Edited by yasfan
Edit: doubleposting for some reason.

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Posted (edited)

Then congratulations, you have just proven unequivocally that this game is not an open world PvP game.

^Open world PvP game mostly likely wouldn't have karma system and you could gain something by killing other players. In BDO you're penalized for this and you don't gain anything, so...

Edited by Morwath

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Posted (edited)

I don't fully understand. The griefers who tag up already lose Karma, what else do you want to do to them? The penalty for griefing is high enough as is, no need to stop it even more.

Edited by Curaidh

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Posted (edited)

I don't fully understand. The griefers who tag up already lose Karma, what else do you want to do to them? The penalty for griefing is high enough as is, no need to stop it even more.

By griefing, he means people intentionnally killstealing mobs, ignoring or provoking others to flag on them because they can't secure an area otherwise.

Since death in PvP doesn't produce expected effects anymore, nor statutes (winner / loser), the best way to get rid of other players, whatever their level is, is being a jerk to make them flag on you until they deplete all their karma (usually by messing with their rotation), since a death in PvP only costs roughly 30 sec, the time it takes to respawn and go back to where you've been defeated.

That's a form of griefing since it can be done purposely to anoy and disrupt other players gameplay, with no real countermeasures.
See it like a law void in the system that players can exploit.

That's why people asked for penalties for death in PvP, while always keeping the karma system which is needed to avoid the game turning into a pure meaningless FFA that would be a slaughter, because they took away the XP loss, which was a legitimate move since they didn't want to see players losing shitons of XP at higher lvls for such reasons, but never came with something else in replacement, creating imbalances in the system.
It wouldn't be necessarily an XP loss, like at the beginning, but something else, like a respawn timer, or a forced town respawn if a player has been killed several times by the same attacker ... Something to produce firm statutes at the end of a territorial conflict, which is basically what grindspot contesting is, in order to evacuate conflictual situations if negociations and diplomacy have led to a dead end (direct negociation, party invite and such).

 

Also going red over someone and risk getting jailed is as well part of the game. If someone doesn't want to do this  cause it's risky that is their choice but the option is there.

Jail is absolutely nothing.

The real risk is losing enhancement lvls on your gear, and a big chunk of XP.

Edited by Capitaine Courage
Your forum sucks

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Posted

You forgot Situation C the most common one by far:

 

Player1: Hello, this spot is taken. (Been at the same rotation for 2 hours)

Player2: I'm taking it, leave or PK

Player1: No I'm staying

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

Player2 (World Chat): BOOOHOOO theres a griefer karma bombing me here, -----ing griefers fix this stupid game so unfair whine whine

 

This indeed seems to be the most common scenario and it is terrible for the community.

They need more channels, shorter channel hop timer, more quality grind spots, and/or perhaps even some instanced dungeons that are decent/fun xp/silver.

You forgot Situation C the most common one by far:

 

Player1: Hello, this spot is taken. (Been at the same rotation for 2 hours)

Player2: I'm taking it, leave or PK

Player1: No I'm staying

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

"Player2 has killed Player1 unfairly"

Player2 (World Chat): BOOOHOOO theres a griefer karma bombing me here, -----ing griefers fix this stupid game so unfair whine whine

 

This indeed seems to be the most common scenario and it is terrible for the community.

They need more channels, shorter channel hop timer, more quality grind spots, and/or perhaps even some instanced dungeons that are decent/fun xp/silver.

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Posted

Why are the dudes on this forum so afraid of war decs? 

 

That's free pvp right there. 

Why are the dudes on this forum so afraid of war decs? 

 

That's free pvp right there. 

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Posted (edited)

Why are the dudes on this forum so afraid of war decs? 

 

That's free pvp right there.

Numerous guilds can't be declared, because "not ready", so it's not always effcient as a countermeasure.

Same thing for protected players or players without guilds.

Edited by Capitaine Courage

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Numerous guilds can't be declared, because "not ready", so it's not always effcient as a countermeasure.

Same thing for protected players or players without guilds.

I'm aware of that mechanic thank you. Doesn't exactly fit what I said but thank you for the heads up none the less. 

Numerous guilds can't be declared, because "not ready", so it's not always effcient as a countermeasure.

Same thing for protected players or players without guilds.

I'm aware of that mechanic thank you. Doesn't exactly fit what I said but thank you for the heads up none the less. 

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