• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Tamer changes 26 April

73 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I never understood why people find it hard to understand that people who pvp, would like to be at the apex of pvp experience in the game. Which is Seige wars,

Thing is, how can this class provide any support for zerk sieges. EVERY class should provide a support of some kind to help in the zerg fest. I understand shes an isolating assassin class. But why must she ONLY be useful for Void CC traps? That was all we had to help. Now since its on a cd, its useless. What help can a Tamer provide in a zerg fest??

What can she possibly do when the Crowd starts growing in numbers? How can she stay relevant in a large pvp battle?? Why is it that she receive so much damage from magic,

Its small shit like this that tilts me, makes me go, "BUT WHY? WHY THO?"

Edited by TheYoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Tamers will only be really viable in largescale pvp if they introduce measures to stop nodewars/seiges being zergfests. It's almost impossible to pick out individuals in largescale which nullifies Tamers and a couple of other classes ability to be effective.

It's why I don't do nodewars anymore - besides the lag and the zerging, it's just not fun to be waiting for res knowing that no matter what you do you'll end up being sidelined or useless while you're WWing around looking for a target you can take on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I never understood why people find it hard to understand that people who pvp, would like to be at the apex of pvp experience in the game. Which is Seige wars,

Thing is, how can this class provide any support for zerk sieges. EVERY class should provide a support of some kind to help in the zerg fest. I understand shes an isolating assasn class. But why must she ONLY useful for Void CC traps? That was all we had to help. Now since its on a cd, its useless. What help can a Tamer provide in a zerg fest??

What can she possibly do when the Crowd starts growing in numbers? How can she stay relevant in a large pvp battle?? Why is it that she receive so much damage from magic,

Its small shit like this that tilts me, makes me go, "BUT WHY? WHY THO?"

Any tamer that doesn't siege will tell you "Tamer is assassin, thats the role we play in sieges" but the thing is.... Anyone who plays a tamer in siege knows if you have the AP you have on tamer on almost any other class you will probably do more to help your guild. 1v1 assassins are viewed as pretty useless in sieges. Why have a 1v1 assassin when you can have a wizard that can drop an ult and kill 10 people at once? 

Fact is tamer doesn't have a key role to play. That is why out of the top siege guilds in NA there's probably less then 15 tamers combined. You can do a lot more in a siege as a 230 ap witch, wizard, warrior, DK, sorc compared to a 230 ap tamer. No matter how good you are. 

You can be the best tamer in the world and still feel bottlenecked by your class in sieges. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Any tamer that doesn't siege will tell you "Tamer is assassin, thats the role we play in sieges" but the thing is.... Anyone who plays a tamer in siege knows if you have the AP you have on tamer on almost any other class you will probably do more to help your guild. 1v1 assassins are viewed as pretty useless in sieges. Why have a 1v1 assassin when you can have a wizard that can drop an ult and kill 10 people at once? 

Fact is tamer doesn't have a key role to play. That is why out of the top siege guilds in NA there's probably less then 15 tamers combined. You can do a lot more in a siege as a 230 ap witch, wizard, warrior, DK, sorc compared to a 230 ap tamer. No matter how good you are. 

You can be the best tamer in the world and still feel bottlenecked by your class in sieges. 

Because they don't have your mobility. Tamer/Musa/Maehwa/Ninja are good for scouting/cannon squad and as an assassin squad, of course you won't always have isolated targets to go for, but Tamer isn't alone there.. I think the issue is not Tamer being "bad" in large scale but large scale classes being far too strong in every aspect of the game. 

I don't know how you suggest they "fix" this issue but most of the classes I mentioned don't have that many super armors to actually stay alive in any group fight, they have to kite and escape as much as tamer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Because they don't have your mobility. Tamer/Musa/Maehwa/Ninja are good for scouting/cannon squad and as an assassin squad, of course you won't always have isolated targets to go for, but Tamer isn't alone there.. I think the issue is not Tamer being "bad" in large scale but large scale classes being far too strong in every aspect of the game. 

I don't know how you suggest they "fix" this issue but most of the classes I mentioned don't have that many super armors to actually stay alive in any group fight, they have to kite and escape as much as tamer.

I agree. Tamer/musa/maehwa/ninja/kuno are all in the same boat when it comes down to large scale PvP. We can play roles, but all the other classes are pretty much viewed as meta of large scale where as those classes are viewed pretty much as filler classes. 

They already said they aren't nerfing and instead plan to bring the weaker classes up to strength with the stronger classes. Yet oddly enough one of the few classes that get nerfed is tamer.... I'll admit void can be a bit cheese at time, but it was the strongest part of the class and mainly what tamer had to offer. "Whats good about tamer" "Oh they have a spammable AOE CC" lol. Not anymore. Its not the end of the world, but again.... That change is a pretty big hit to the classes utility. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I agree. Tamer/musa/maehwa/ninja/kuno are all in the same boat when it comes down to large scale PvP. We can play roles, but all the other classes are pretty much viewed as meta of large scale where as those classes are viewed pretty much as filler classes. 

They already said they aren't nerfing and instead plan to bring the weaker classes up to strength with the stronger classes. Yet oddly enough one of the few classes that get nerfed is tamer.... I'll admit void can be a bit cheese at time, but it was the strongest part of the class and mainly what tamer had to offer. "Whats good about tamer" "Oh they have a spammable AOE CC" lol. Not anymore. Its not the end of the world, but again.... That change is a pretty big hit to the classes utility. 

Isn't that a fix tho? No other class in the game can CC with a skill on cooldown. What I find strong about tamer is she has a lot of mobility and if you position yourself correctly you can shut down an entire party on your own, because your dmg output is also high enough to 100-0 someone as soon as he gets stiffness.

I also heard they're going to buff weaker classes so I expect changes coming our way but I personally enjoy my class, it's not good enough to go with the rest of the zerg because you're most likely going to die first but we're probably the only ones that can pop in CC their mages and get out so I wouldn't say we're completely useless.

It still feels bad to take so much dmg from witch/wiz because they have an entire 6 skills rotation with permanent immunity/guard and we can't trade damage with them with our super armor skills, also weapon swap C permablock isn't helping us much because they can easily bait us with staff and shut us down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

By the way for anyone wondering why the new echo flow feels weak, it's because the skill is currently bugged and only does 5 hits instead of 6 (the 1st part does 3 hits and 2nd part only does 2). Or at least this is what some of us found out while testing it. So it should be a 35% dmg increase compared to the base skill, but instead it's only a 12% dmg increase.

Edited by Romanx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

By the way for anyone wondering why the new echo flow feels weak, it's because the skill is currently bugged and only does 5 hits instead of 6 (the 1st part does 3 hits and 2nd part only does 2). Or at least this is what some of us found out while testing it. So it should be a 35% dmg increase compared to the base skill, but instead it's only a 12% dmg increase.

If that's true and it gets fixed, that'll be pretty nice.

As to everything else, yeah...void lighting nerf sucks.  I can't imagine they wanted us to spam CC forever, but they let it go on for a while and we enjoyed it while we could.  I am curious what they'll be giving us in the future though.

By the way for anyone wondering why the new echo flow feels weak, it's because the skill is currently bugged and only does 5 hits instead of 6 (the 1st part does 3 hits and 2nd part only does 2). Or at least this is what some of us found out while testing it. So it should be a 35% dmg increase compared to the base skill, but instead it's only a 12% dmg increase.

If that's true and it gets fixed, that'll be pretty nice.

As to everything else, yeah...void lighting nerf sucks.  I can't imagine they wanted us to spam CC forever, but they let it go on for a while and we enjoyed it while we could.  I am curious what they'll be giving us in the future though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I shit on kids in largescale lmao. I don't have a problem but I know I can get more out of playing another class. That is what bothers me. ;) just cause I complain it is a weaker largescale class doesn't mean I am not good. I've been in a lot of top siege guilds and I'm usually top 10 kill as tamer so :)  

And yes you are right, we are assassin classes and our kits are made for smaller scale. That is why we aren't the most viable large scale. But they can make some simple changes to make tamer better in large scale without making us to strong in 1v1's. For instance improving our ultimate ability in awakened form. Whether it be by damage or the ability to cancel it or whatever... Increasing the damage on our awakened 100% alone would make tamer more viable for large scale. 

There is a ton of little things they can do, that they haven't yet. That could have major improvements in largescale for all assassin classes.

We are assassin classes, yet most other classes just one shot people while we still have to do some form of combo so..........  our "role" isn't exactly a priority. Almost any class can fill it. 

An assassin goes to hard to reach location to kill a target, it has nothing to do with one shotting.  A king can be assassinated with poison. 

Only tamer/ninja/kuno have the iframes and collisionless abilities for infiltration and escape. The other classes either lack those tools, or will spend all of their resources on entry. 

Our role is not a priority if these type of cannon squad situations don't happen often.

I agree. Tamer/musa/maehwa/ninja/kuno are all in the same boat when it comes down to large scale PvP. We can play roles, but all the other classes are pretty much viewed as meta of large scale where as those classes are viewed pretty much as filler classes. 

They already said they aren't nerfing and instead plan to bring the weaker classes up to strength with the stronger classes. Yet oddly enough one of the few classes that get nerfed is tamer.... I'll admit void can be a bit cheese at time, but it was the strongest part of the class and mainly what tamer had to offer. "Whats good about tamer" "Oh they have a spammable AOE CC" lol. Not anymore. Its not the end of the world, but again.... That change is a pretty big hit to the classes utility. 

It has a smaller range, and requires aim, but surging tide is still spammable. Heilang might interrupt your commands on attack mode, so set the pet to follow if you really need it.

Our unique talent is chainnable aoe cc. Tamer/wiz/witch all have aoe ccs that are basically guaranteed because the cc is tied to multiple hits. Tamer has much lower cooldowns than the later which allows us to chain aoe ccs for longer than any other class. 

Tamer is basically the female berserker, we provide lockdown without causing immunities. Two tamers can overlap their combos, two musa can't. 

Edited by Kentigem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Will anyone be speccing out of Void Lightning because of this change?  Just curious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Will anyone be speccing out of Void Lightning because of this change?  Just curious.

No reason to spec out of it, just because the cd actually works now doesn't mean it's useless. Most of the time you wouldn't even use it so often that you'd feel crippled now that the cd works.

People that say the nerf/fix hit us super hard seem to be stuck in the pre-awakening era.

Edited by Thrive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

No reason to spec out of it, just because the cd actually works now doesn't mean it's useless. Most of the time you wouldn't even use it so often that you'd feel crippled now that the cd works.

People that say the nerf/fix hit us super hard seem to be stuck in the pre-awakening era.

Yeh, I feel similarly.  Not sure if I'd put it quite that way, but for sure Void Lightning is still solid.

If anything, it's making me die less, since I'm not hoping into dumb situations thinking I can just use VL to buy time for an escape.  >.>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Will anyone be speccing out of Void Lightning because of this change?  Just curious.

You can't unlearn the first rank of a tree, but for skills like void lightning or upward claw the first rank is useless. VL can't be canceled until the third rank, and UC has no float until the second. The only reason to reduce a skill to its trash tier is if you never use it, or are extremely desperate for skill points. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I find tamers hit...hard now...like way too hard for their AP level.

Though in mass fights, less void is actually a good thing, if not less effective. I found roar almost as good if not better, where you can void, since  the slow is really strong, and people don't dodge the heilang. (because they don't know what he's doing)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The new Echo feels pretty bad compared to the old one.  Maybe I just haven't perfected how to use it but it feels slower and the damage is CERTAINLY slower compared to the potential the old one had.  Trying to use Double Echo on downed targets feels almost completely nonviable which is unfortunate because before Echo was a HUGE source of damage from Tamers.  I could be wrong but I'm calling this change a definite nerf.  Will Test more in coming days.

Edited by Ginos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

So Here are some Final Tips about Tamer changes.

1.) Void lightning is still usefull it just has cd now. I personally ultra rarely use void lightning , simply because u are pretty much unsafe while doing it and you are staying too long in non awakening, which is not fine for me.

2.) After couple of test here are my final thoughts on ECHO.

 - Ultimate Echo pierce have different hit box (even on first hit) compared to normal ehco. It has a lot side large aoe hitbox and infront. Echo pierces problem always was the aoe hitbox being too small. Now is bigger which is ultra fine.

- Ultimate Echo's damage is concentrate on front which basically means it deals double damage.Yes but no :( . Old echo deals 800%*3 = 2400% dmg (only frontal hit) . Ultimate echo deals 540*6 = 3240%. So this is about 35% dmg more.

Final thoughts - Ultimate Echo is definatlely better than normal echo. Of course if you don't find it this way you can always LOCK the ultimate echo and use the old one :)

3.) All Accuracy of the skills is the same. There are no different in damage than before patch. I guess they always were these numbers , just wrongly written.

4.) Spinner seems the same. Cant decide if I can feel any difference from the crit damage buff.

By the way for anyone wondering why the new echo flow feels weak, it's because the skill is currently bugged and only does 5 hits instead of 6 (the 1st part does 3 hits and 2nd part only does 2). Or at least this is what some of us found out while testing it. So it should be a 35% dmg increase compared to the base skill, but instead it's only a 12% dmg increase.

Report this please , so we can have hopes to be fixed :)

Edited by rximmortal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I find tamers hit...hard now...like way too hard for their AP level.

Though in mass fights, less void is actually a good thing, if not less effective. I found roar almost as good if not better, where you can void, since  the slow is really strong, and people don't dodge the heilang. (because they don't know what he's doing)

 

Your posts are usually reasonable, so what happened?

Bj cancel > spinner was stronger than bj>echo>spinner till 58. The first rank only existed for symmetry. The second and third rank were good but the modifiers were still too weak for its cd. It is much fairer than before. If it feels overly strong at 58+ that would be in line with their goal of buffing everyone to wiz/witch/dk level. However I highly doubt its OP.

As for you other comment, roaring is not a replacement. If you need slow use LBD; 5s of -30% are better than 10s if the 5s is delivered under super armor and the 10s is not. Make no mistake the skill has its uses. Because roaring commands the pet to aoe cc from its current location it has better range and aim than surging tide. And unlike void it can be spammed. But the radius, cc duration, protection, and skill cancelling are worse than VL. It will never be almost or better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Your posts are usually reasonable, so what happened?

Bj cancel > spinner was stronger than bj>echo>spinner till 58. The first rank only existed for symmetry. The second and third rank were good but the modifiers were still too weak for its cd. It is much fairer than before. If it feels overly strong at 58+ that would be in line with their goal of buffing everyone to wiz/witch/dk level. However I highly doubt its OP.

As for you other comment, roaring is not a replacement. If you need slow use LBD; 5s of -30% are better than 10s if the 5s is delivered under super armor and the 10s is not. Make no mistake the skill has its uses. Because roaring commands the pet to aoe cc from its current location it has better range and aim than surging tide. And unlike void it can be spammed. But the radius, cc duration, protection, and skill cancelling are worse than VL. It will never be almost or better.

This is strictly mass pvp, there' a clear difference in combos, usage, and tactics.

LBD is not good in mass pvp, when you're in army clash situation, nor  in a base  attack. Void used to be the goto skill for a base clash for instance, which is now replaced by VL+roar.

There are a couple of reasons, 1: size of aoe, 2: CC opportunity and independent action.

This is why tamer's are meme as bad at seiges. While it's not optimal there are still ways to approach it. I've honed my techniques and tactics in such scenarios when you need to all out clash on a "choke point".

There is a lot of ways to use roar to fill in the CD of VL, and in fact roar is somewhat better after being nerfed on VL. You just know how to use it. Looking back i should have used roar more in the past even before the void nerf. For one thing, slow still applys in CD, making it a spam able. slow and CC. (and it also goes through objects)

I seem to be hitting so much harder in these situations, due to the requirements for short burst, and the extra SA time isn't have bad either.

Edited by Kuu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

You can cancel roar though, right?  It's been so long since I've used it (don't have the points to fit it in right now, you'd think 1300 would be enough but noooooo).  You been dropping it after cancelling VL or something?

As far as better damage, I think that's correct.  Been hurting guys with 2 levels on me a great deal more than I used to.

 

Though I'm missing what you are talking about with extra SA time.  Roaring doesn't have super armor, I thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Echo change is garbage, animation cancelling pre-change echo in pvp felt more effective then now. Waiting for a full ulti:echopierce to go off is just asking for us to get blown up. You can tell me to lock the ultimate , but it doesn't change the fact the original echo was nerfed by around 200%. 

The Q change was coming from a long time ago. Don't find that a nerf, just a change that was advertised from a while back. 

Edited by Kukiko

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

This is strictly mass pvp, there' a clear difference in combos, usage, and tactics.

LBD is not good in mass pvp, when you're in army clash situation, nor  in a base  attack. Void used to be the goto skill for a base clash for instance, which is now replaced by VL+roar.

There are a couple of reasons, 1: size of aoe, 2: CC opportunity and independent action.

This is why tamer's are meme as bad at seiges. While it's not optimal there are still ways to approach it. I've honed my techniques and tactics in such scenarios when you need to all out clash on a "choke point".

There is a lot of ways to use roar to fill in the CD of VL, and in fact roar is somewhat better after being nerfed on VL. You just know how to use it. Looking back i should have used roar more in the past even before the void nerf. For one thing, slow still applys in CD, making it a spam able. slow and CC. (and it also goes through objects)

I seem to be hitting so much harder in these situations, due to the requirements for short burst, and the extra SA time isn't have bad either.

VL was never the goto skill for spamming CC in the choke, that went to surging tide. You could void travel and be a suicide bomber, but the skill is really for zoning the backlines.

The only thing roaring does better is zoning the channel between the choke and backlines. Its cc radius is smaller than VL, but the combined area of the slow and the cc is longer. When done right those who SA past the stiffness get hit by the slow. However once people start breaking through they stop moving in linear patterns. And roaring cannot be a replacement in that situation. Its like wiz vs witch at that point. You could go for the rounder omnidirectional protection by casting next to Heilang, but it is still worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

When something new come out and I read comments in forums, its everytime the same :D

1.) New move is okey , nice , imba , op , buff and so on           OR ....

2.) New move is total crap , they nerf us ........

At times like this , I realize people are just playing different games...

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

You can cancel roar though, right?  It's been so long since I've used it (don't have the points to fit it in right now, you'd think 1300 would be enough but noooooo).  You been dropping it after cancelling VL or something?

As far as better damage, I think that's correct.  Been hurting guys with 2 levels on me a great deal more than I used to.

 

Though I'm missing what you are talking about with extra SA time.  Roaring doesn't have super armor, I thought.

You cancel roaring with S. But it is slow, and you are unprotected. VL comes with guard on  off cd, a nd can be canceled with tremble or jolt.Tremble has SA.. Jolt is unprotected but much faster than roaring's S-Cancel. 

This disparity is because VL makes the pet cc at your location, while Roaring makes the pet cc at its location. The former gets melee defenses, and the latter is treated as ranged freecasting. You can use Roaring like a melee skill by standing next to your pet, but you aren't going to be protected.

The extra SA time is about Echo.

Edited by Kentigem
guard off not on cd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

You cancel roaring with S. But it is slow, and you are unprotected. VL comes with guard on cd, and can be canceled with tremble or jolt.Tremble has SA.. Jolt is unprotected but much faster than roaring's S-Cancel. 

This disparity is because VL makes the pet cc at your location, while Roaring makes the pet cc at its location. The former gets melee defenses, and the latter is treated as ranged freecasting. You can use Roaring like a melee skill by standing next to your pet, but you aren't going to be protected.

The extra SA time is about Echo.

Ah, thanks for clearing up my confusion.  That's what I get for not using roaring much, forget you can have it happen at range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

You cancel roaring with S. But it is slow, and you are unprotected. VL comes with guard on cd, and can be canceled with tremble or jolt.Tremble has SA.. Jolt is unprotected but much faster than roaring's S-Cancel. 

This disparity is because VL makes the pet cc at your location, while Roaring makes the pet cc at its location. The former gets melee defenses, and the latter is treated as ranged freecasting. You can use Roaring like a melee skill by standing next to your pet, but you aren't going to be protected.

The extra SA time is about Echo.

VL doesnt come with guard on cd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0