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Legendary Beast Dance


24 posts in this topic

Posted

When you use this skill you have SA, according to the description.  I have seen it function when I get "immune" spam as I'm taking hits from time to time while it's in use.

However, when I am in the bad, head to head situation with some classes (sorc and ranger, mostly), and we end up clashing, their skill always seems to win.  They take a hit, maybe one from VB, but then I am CC'd after that by the skill they are using and stop attacking.

I'm curious why this is.  Is it that SA only lasts for a split second, so it won't protect you from the multiple hits of the enemy skill?  Is it that it's like block and can be drained down and broken?

I have thought, maybe, that it's their AP and Level possibly being so much higher than mine that they can just run me over.

I know direct confrontation with Beast Dance is a bad move, and I've changed my style a lot since those days, but from time to time you're hitting with it and get interrupted by something else.  Just trying to figure out if there is a time, other than having an enemy CC'd, where it's relatively safe to use this skill, because when it works well, you can put a lot of people, even players, on their butt all at once.

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Posted (edited)

When you use this skill you have SA, according to the description.  I have seen it function when I get "immune" spam as I'm taking hits from time to time while it's in use.

However, when I am in the bad, head to head situation with some classes (sorc and ranger, mostly), and we end up clashing, their skill always seems to win.  They take a hit, maybe one from VB, but then I am CC'd after that by the skill they are using and stop attacking.

I'm curious why this is.  Is it that SA only lasts for a split second, so it won't protect you from the multiple hits of the enemy skill?  Is it that it's like block and can be drained down and broken?

I have thought, maybe, that it's their AP and Level possibly being so much higher than mine that they can just run me over.

I know direct confrontation with Beast Dance is a bad move, and I've changed my style a lot since those days, but from time to time you're hitting with it and get interrupted by something else.  Just trying to figure out if there is a time, other than having an enemy CC'd, where it's relatively safe to use this skill, because when it works well, you can put a lot of people, even players, on their butt all at once.

depends on what move you use beforeit and one of 4 different moves you use with it that determine when SA starts and stops. The fastest one would be Dragon with start time but doesnt last long at all.. longesnt and one i get interupted the most is with turtle follow by bird. Before you SA activated their hit registered first and with slight dyc and lag it looks like they stooped you in the middle. Seen it h appen all the times especialy with laggy rangers.

Edited by Lenerlink

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Posted

depends on what move you use beforeit and one of 4 different moves you use with it that determine when SA starts and stops. The fastest one would be Dragon with start time but doesnt last long at all.. longesnt and one i get interupted the most is with turtle follow by bird.

So dragon get's it's SA in the quickest?  That's actually kinda good because you can drop into other moves half way through it, yeah?

What would you use to transition into beast dance usually?

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Posted

 

So dragon get's it's SA in the quickest?  That's actually kinda good because you can drop into other moves half way through it, yeah?

What would you use to transition into beast dance usually?

Srry i meant tiger being the fastest. I tend to use the dragon and bird because i want the SA to last long and i use moonstrike to transition into it most the time.

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Posted

Srry i meant tiger being the fastest. I tend to use the dragon and bird because i want the SA to last long and i use moonstrike to transition into it most the time.

Okay.  So moonlight/full moon-echo-tiger-intimidation?  Or Soaring if you want to extend combo instead of try to uppercut launch people?

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Posted

Tamers have to think too much about which moves to use before others =/

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Posted

Okay.  So moonlight/full moon-echo-tiger-intimidation?  Or Soaring if you want to extend combo instead of try to uppercut launch people?

I would not becaue you "cant" stiff on a target thats already stiff....(exept when you can but thats a whole another can of worms) you have to follow up moon with float/bound/stun other wise they will punish you for double stiff..

 

Tamers have to think too much about which moves to use before others =/

not really as long as you know the CC chain chart we have the most diverse combos out of any class allowing freedom of play

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Posted

There's a chart?

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Posted

...actualy yes, i have memorized it which shows you what cc you can connect and which ones cancel/nullifies other CC

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Posted

...actualy yes, i have memorized it which shows you what cc you can connect and which ones cancel/nullifies other CC

That's why im saying you guys have to think so hard.

I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean since theres so many different results based on what move you did previously, it takes a lot of presence of mind to optimally play tamer.

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Posted

...actualy yes, i have memorized it which shows you what cc you can connect and which ones cancel/nullifies other CC

link?  I'd love to see it, would probably help my playing.  >.>

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Posted

link?  I'd love to see it, would probably help my playing.  >.>

IT was a chart i found long time ago...hard to find now.

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Posted

That's too bad.  Oh well, tell me more about what the problem with using the same CC type twice.  It's not something I'm familiar with.

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Posted (edited)

It should be common knowledge not to use the same type of cc twice (except for when you can...) other than grab. once someone has been hit with a stun/stiff/bound/knockdown/float/knockback/ they cannot be put into double jeopardy but.. you can do stiff -> stun for them to be stuck in place for even longer period of time because its 2 diffent types of cc... and to take it to extream you can do stif->stun->stuff->stun->knockback->stiff(heilang special stif)->stun->stiff->bound->grapple (which does a float)->to are you not dead yet!!!! as a tamer. (Really by the knockback best to knockdown because 1/20 times the stun went through)...off track here

here is what i remember from the chart for the most part.

bound-locks out float and bound and knockdown (<--little fuzzy on one of those)

float-locks out float and bound

knockdown-locks out bound and knockdown

freeze-locks out everything but freeze (cant be grabbed but i have..once...it was funny.)

grapple-(grey area)can be grabbed multiple times but its due to grab ending in knockdown/bound/or float so if you somehow didnt get float/knockdown/or bound you cant get grapple again (usualy dyc causes this and your put in a state of no damage for a sec or two before you can be shitted on again)

stun-locks out by stun (and something else.... if i remember right from the chart but that part could have been wrong)

stiff-locks stiff

knockback-dont remember shit about it but from experience locks out stiff (but not heilang special stiff for some odd reason))

 

also there are very very few moves the defy this chart for some reason but i will not explain what because rather it stay not well known

Edited by Lenerlink

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Posted

That is on the one hand very helpful, and on the other hand the opposite of helpful.

Though knowing now that it should be "common knowledge" that you can't double up on the same CC type is a bit...well, irking, to be honest.  There are some games that let you chain the same CC all day, some that let you do it, but for diminishing returns, and others that have absolutely no effect if done twice.  Being that I haven't studied the mechanics of this game until...a few weeks ago when I joined the forum...I can't say it would be something that I would know right off the bat.

If you want to keep it a secret, I can imagine why.  Though I can also guess what some of the types that work together are, even though they aren't supposed to.

Thanks for sharing what you have.

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Posted

That is on the one hand very helpful, and on the other hand the opposite of helpful.

Though knowing now that it should be "common knowledge" that you can't double up on the same CC type is a bit...well, irking, to be honest.  There are some games that let you chain the same CC all day, some that let you do it, but for diminishing returns, and others that have absolutely no effect if done twice.  Being that I haven't studied the mechanics of this game until...a few weeks ago when I joined the forum...I can't say it would be something that I would know right off the bat.

If you want to keep it a secret, I can imagine why.  Though I can also guess what some of the types that work together are, even though they aren't supposed to.

Thanks for sharing what you have.

Srry didnt mean "common knowledge" as an insult but rather its something that becomes first thought when you become use to pvp in game.

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Posted (edited)

I would not becaue you "cant" stiff on a target thats already stiff....(exept when you can but thats a whole another can of worms) you have to follow up moon with float/bound/stun other wise they will punish you for double stiff..

There is no can of worms, you are just misunderstood. Stiffness cannot be immuned, but it can be resisted.

Stiffness is a quick cc. Sorc's Cartian Nightmare, and Tamer's Void Lightning have somewhere between 12-16 hits to compensate for that. Moon only has 3 hits.

White Tiger has the smallest hitbox of LBD. You are being punished because they resisted the last 1-2 hits of moon and moved out of range of White Tiger.

 

grapple-(grey area)can be grabbed multiple times but its due to grab ending in knockdown/bound/or float so if you somehow didnt get float/knockdown/or bound you cant get grapple again (usualy dyc causes this and your put in a state of no damage for a sec or two before you can be shitted on again)

also there are very very few moves the defy this chart for some reason but i will not explain what because rather it stay not well known

Grab cannot be immuned but it can be resisted. Your resistance to grapple raises after you have been grabbed three times, but we still don't know by how much.

Heilangs innate ccs will defy the chart occasionally, most likely because he is not a player. This is already well known by people who play the game. Hiding it from new people is useless.

However if you are insisting that stiffness>stiffness is impossible, many moves will defy your chart. Like All Around Spinner which would fail constantly if the first hit of stiffness immuned the other 5.

Edited by Kentigem

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Posted

There is no can of worms, you are just misunderstood. Stiffness cannot be immuned, but it can be resisted.

Stiffness is a quick cc. Sorc's Cartian Nightmare, and Tamer's Void Lightning have somewhere between 12-16 hits to compensate for that. Moon only has 3 hits.

White Tiger has the smallest hitbox of LBD. You are being punished because they resisted the last 1-2 hits of moon and moved out of range of White Tiger.

 

Grab cannot be immuned but it can be resisted. Your resistance to grapple raises after you have been grabbed three times, but we still don't know by how much.

Heilangs innate ccs will defy the chart occasionally, most likely because he is not a player. This is already well known by people who play the game. Hiding it from new people is useless.

However if you are insisting that stiffness>stiffness is impossible, many moves will defy your chart. Like All Around Spinner which would fail constantly if the first hit of stiffness immuned the other 5.

....its known that as long as you chain stiff back to back like most moves do yo will be stiffen for the moves entire stiff chain +1.

heilang stiff is weird as i can stiff someone after it but if i stiff someone before it begains or while they are in it, it breaks the cc chain which is why i dont like using it around my team members if i want to combo group.

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Posted

....its known that as long as you chain stiff back to back like most moves do yo will be stiffen for the moves entire stiff chain +1.

heilang stiff is weird as i can stiff someone after it but if i stiff someone before it begains or while they are in it, it breaks the cc chain which is why i dont like using it around my team members if i want to combo group.

You can't break a stiffness chain. I think you are conflating cc-timers and overlap. When some ccs are applied there is a 4 second lock on repeat applications. And certain animations can't be applied simultaneously.

All ccs, except for stiffness and grapple, have cc timers.

Overlap is more of a logical limitation.

  • you can only force someone into the air or ground if they are standing unfrozen. Float, knockdown, bound can only happen after stiffness/stun/knockback/grapple
    • this is also why air and down smash exist.
  • grabbing people in the air is too hard on the game, so you only grab people who are standing unfrozen or on the ground.
  • you can only stiffen someone who is not stiffened because someone can't be "twice as stiff" when the game already has the stunned cc.
  • you can't cc someone who is frozen because that would require breaking the ice, and then they wouldn't be frozen anyway

You aren't being punished for stiff>stiff. Nothing is being locked out. You are being punished for overlapping. 

Telling him not to moon into echo was fine. But saying he "cant" do something is ridiculous. Moon in to Spinner works just fine.

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Posted

You can't break a stiffness chain. I think you are conflating cc-timers and overlap. When some ccs are applied there is a 4 second lock on repeat applications. And certain animations can't be applied simultaneously.

All ccs, except for stiffness and grapple, have cc timers.

Overlap is more of a logical limitation.

  • you can only force someone into the air or ground if they are standing unfrozen. Float, knockdown, bound can only happen after stiffness/stun/knockback/grapple
    • this is also why air and down smash exist.
  • grabbing people in the air is too hard on the game, so you only grab people who are standing unfrozen or on the ground.
  • you can only stiffen someone who is not stiffened because someone can't be "twice as stiff" when the game already has the stunned cc.
  • you can't cc someone who is frozen because that would require breaking the ice, and then they wouldn't be frozen anyway

You aren't being punished for stiff>stiff. Nothing is being locked out. You are being punished for overlapping. 

Telling him not to moon into echo was fine. But saying he "cant" do something is ridiculous. Moon in to Spinner works just fine.

...but..but...i put my faith in that chart and preached about its teachings. which is what lead me to create interesting combos....its all been a lie...for an entire year....

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Posted

...but..but...i put my faith in that chart and preached about its teachings. which is what lead me to create interesting combos....its all been a lie...for an entire year....

You could come up with safe combos using the chart. And not all the information is wrong. But I'll try to give a better explanation.
 

  • The cc timer is 5 seconds of immunity (not 4 seconds like I said earlier) from the start of the cc. It prevents you from chaining ccs. 
    • A cc lasts until the character can move again, i.e when they are in neutral position.  
      • Because all ccs last 5 seconds or less, you can only chain grab or stiffness (because those two have no timer).
    • Grabs skills will refresh the immunity of any secondary cc component.
      • e.g if we use a float skill then grab 2 seconds later, the cc timer for floats will go from 3 back to 5.
  • Overlap has to do with processing animations. It prevents you from combining ccs
    • You cannot only be in one cc at time
    • As long as you are being cced. the game will either
      • replace a cc with an incoming cc
      • or ignore incoming ccs.
    • The situation is resolved according to the following rules
      • Skills that create down status cannot overwrite air status. A bound will not work on a float
      • Skills that create air status cannot overwrite down status. A float will not work on a bound
      • Stiffness will not overwrite stiffness.
      • Grab will overwrite grab.
  • resistance
    • depending on gear you have between a 10%-60% chance to resist a cc. but you probably already know that

 

 

Stiffness last a second. The cc portion of moonlight lasts ~.5 of a second. That means there is usually like .5 overlap after the skill.

Debates about how long the new echo is aside, if you are overlapping the first .5 seconds you have neutered the skill. Someone would barely need one resist to avoid any stiffness from the skill.

If you want to chain stiffness do

  • long skill > long skill
  • short skill > long skill

do not do

  • long skill > short skill
  • short skill > short skill

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Okay, so give me an example of your combo working?  I've seen some and they usually echo after moonlight.  If that's bad, are you saying moonlight into spinner is always better?

Does having Full Moon change how this interacts?

Edited by Alrikmerc

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Posted (edited)

Okay, so give me an example of your combo working?  I've seen some and they usually echo after moonlight.  If that's bad, are you saying moonlight into spinner is always better?

Does having Full Moon change how this interacts?

I think neutering & punishment were the wrong words.

I've been talking in the context of chaining stiffness.

Moon and echo each gives a second of stiffness, but when you combine them together you still only get a second.

  • Neutering was describing echo's cc, not it's damage.
  • Punishment was describing losing out on total cc.
  • Neither of these are bad things if you don't need to chain stiffness. You can cram damage into the 1 second stiffness from the first skill.

All that matters is pacing. What is protecting the next skill after the overlap? 

* moon > echo > dragon is fine

* moon > full moon > echo> echo is fine 

* moon > full moon > white tiger is fine 

* moon > echo > echo is risky 

* moon > white tiger > bj is risky

(I know I said moon > white tiger was about hitboxes but that was before I timed the skills)

As for combos I firmly believe this is the best tamer guide in existence. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z3remd4H1wXkh3Ys3dX4Lo0Hnr2wWaq4VPYwplLjBCI/edit?usp=sharing 

I don't know how up to date it is but it should give you some ideas. 

Edited by Kentigem
I don't know how to fix the formatting for the second bulleted list
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Posted (edited)

Okay, so give me an example of your combo working?  I've seen some and they usually echo after moonlight.  If that's bad, are you saying moonlight into spinner is always better?

Does having Full Moon change how this interacts?

I really like 

Moon>vermillion>spinner>grab>JB combo>echo

With the pet dmg so high right now, the moment you hit your target with vermillion the per will do so much dmg! 

 

edit: another thing, I'm new to Tamer and just realised that LBD does the same dmg even when on cooldown, thats so nice

Edited by Alex Gotcha

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