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Let's Talk Gear And Controlled Market


155 posts in this topic

Posted

And what does any of this have to do with the fact that usually several hours pass before a single boss piece is put on the MP? Or did you think I was talking about Witches and MoS'?

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Posted

And what does any of this have to do with the fact that usually several hours pass before a single boss piece is put on the MP? Or did you think I was talking about Witches and MoS'?

And what you wanting to have access to free boss gear whenever you want has anything to do with free market and healthy enviroment? :D 

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Posted

And what you wanting to have access to free boss gear whenever you want has anything to do with free market and healthy enviroment? :D 

I've never said "free boss gear", in fact I actually said it is somewhat fair that people with a lot of silver can preorder stuff at several times their max MP value and have a decent chance (again, 20% iirc) to get them.

What I'm trying to say is that a free market would do more harm than good, take Blackstones for example. Right now they are almost always sold out, this means demand is far higher than supply. Following basic economy we know that in a free market their price would raise until people can afford it, and the ceiling is how much the richest are willing to spend. If I had to guess, we'd be easily looking at twice or even more that price. Now we know it takes several hundreds to get "basic" +15 gear, especially when you're new and you have to rely on enchanting. It would take weeks to just drop them all, and buying is also not an option. Now apply this to memfrags too, their value would probably increase more since they are rarer (currently valued 3x a blackstone, so...), so enchanted yellow gear would increase exponentially, and all of a sudden we are talking several billions silver just for a "basic" DUO gear that's considered the bare minimum to access late game content, all of which without any change to acquiring resources ingame. At least all those failstacking +15 Heves or Zereth will now drop to couple millions, so there's that.

I've seen this happen.

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Posted

I've never said "free boss gear", in fact I actually said it is somewhat fair that people with a lot of silver can preorder stuff at several times their max MP value and have a decent chance (again, 20% iirc) to get them.

What I'm trying to say is that a free market would do more harm than good, take Blackstones for example. Right now they are almost always sold out, this means demand is far higher than supply. Following basic economy we know that in a free market their price would raise until people can afford it, and the ceiling is how much the richest are willing to spend. If I had to guess, we'd be easily looking at twice or even more that price. Now we know it takes several hundreds to get "basic" +15 gear, especially when you're new and you have to rely on enchanting. It would take weeks to just drop them all, and buying is also not an option. Now apply this to memfrags too, their value would probably increase more since they are rarer (currently valued 3x a blackstone, so...), so enchanted yellow gear would increase exponentially, and all of a sudden we are talking several billions silver just for a "basic" DUO gear that's considered the bare minimum to access late game content, all of which without any change to acquiring resources ingame. At least all those failstacking +15 Heves or Zereth will now drop to couple millions, so there's that.

I've seen this happen.

You get hundreds of blackstones from blackspirit quests, so newbies can easily hit PRI/DUO gear just from that (especially now +15 is easier than ever)... When you start altering your gear or tryin to improve it even furher it gets more expensive... And thats ok... You are talking like people miraculously stop dropping them when price icreases... Which wont happen... With free market everything gets its price adjusted... Not just few stones... Whole market would operate in adequate price range, so you would make money to afford them from selling other things... You still can drop them... And moreover the supply would increase, since more people would be selling them instead of stockpiling them just in case, if selling them actually provided some money...

So your "harm"not only does not exist, its actually quite the opposite... :D Thats the economy... Not the things you made up... :D 

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Posted

I tried to explain why a team of designers decided a close market would be for the best, if you still think it's not there is nothing else to do, as we cannot have a real test.

The way I see it, also from the infographic from a couple months ago, the game is doing fine, actually growing, and I trust designers to understand their system better than we do, also considering further plans they may have which we do not know about.

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Posted

I tried to explain why a team of designers decided a close market would be for the best, if you still think it's not there is nothing else to do, as we cannot have a real test.

The way I see it, also from the infographic from a couple months ago, the game is doing fine, actually growing, and I trust designers to understand their system better than we do, also considering further plans they may have which we do not know about.

Again, fixed market was designed for other enviroment than we have, so once again you are wrong... (feel free to google up KR BDO... i am kinda getting tired of presenting you everything you are lazy to look up)

Also feedback is essential in any development...

Also... Some of their plans were revealed to us in interview (or w/e it was) not too long ago... (again... google...)

Feel free to blindly believe to anything you want... :D But if you dont care now, dont even bother crying later... :D Also making up info (like those rigged market scenarios you presented) aint caring... :D  

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Posted (edited)

You get hundreds of blackstones from blackspirit quests, so newbies can easily hit PRI/DUO gear just from that (especially now +15 is easier than ever)... When you start altering your gear or tryin to improve it even furher it gets more expensive... And thats ok... You are talking like people miraculously stop dropping them when price icreases... Which wont happen... With free market everything gets its price adjusted... Not just few stones... Whole market would operate in adequate price range, so you would make money to afford them from selling other things... You still can drop them... And moreover the supply would increase, since more people would be selling them instead of stockpiling them just in case, if selling them actually provided some money...

So your "harm"not only does not exist, its actually quite the opposite... :D Thats the economy... Not the things you made up... :D 

If there was an free and open market in BDO it would end up like every MMO with about 1-5 players would run the marketplace everything would be fed to them they would sit in max gear and accumilate wealth from not even playing the game but clicking a few buttons. Here is something that WILL 100% happen if BDO gets an free market is that one person will sit all day buying blackstones and once the market is dry he will start posting them at 1mil a pop and just buy anything lower than that the second he can and now you are stuck buying at whatever prices this 1 person wants you to pay.

Also 100% free and unregulated markets do not work even in IRL if not I would suggest you read about the market crash in 2008 and how it came about.

Edited by Zeel
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Posted

If there was an free and open market in BDO it would end up like every MMO with about 1-5 players would run the marketplace everything would be fed to them they would sit in max gear and accumilate wealth from not even playing the game but clicking a few buttons. Here is something that WILL 100% happen if BDO gets an free market is that one person will sit all day buying blackstones and once the market is dry he will start posting them at 1mil a pop and just buy anything lower than that the second he can and now you are stuck buying at whatever prices this 1 person wants you to pay.

Also 100% free and unregulated markets do not work even in IRL if not I would suggest you read about the market crash in 2008 and how it came about.

Addressed in my other posts... 30 items listed maximu, 15 minutes for listing and 35% tax... One person doesnt have enough time, resources and possibilities to control market in BDO... (coming from one of those who liked to do it... You would need cartel of tens/hundreds of people doin it here, or bot accs just to screw others over...)

The only downside is, that it would screw over lifeskills...

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Posted

Addressed in my other posts... 30 items listed maximu, 15 minutes for listing and 35% tax... One person doesnt have enough time, resources and possibilities to control market in BDO... (coming from one of those who liked to do it... You would need cartel of tens/hundreds of people doin it here, or bot accs just to screw others over...)

The only downside is, that it would screw over lifeskills...

IRL companies pass the tax on their products over for you the higher the tax the higher prices will go for as people want to earn x and y amounts of each item and did I say there was unlimited posting? even with limited posting unless there is a cap on what a single person can buy per day you can buy and stockpile hard people already have tens of billions atm dont think they would see an issue here. Hell they do this with rice IRL they buy huge reserves they know they cant sell right now to jack prices up due to being able to limit the supply.

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Posted

IRL companies pass the tax on their products over for you the higher the tax the higher prices will go for as people want to earn x and y amounts of each item and did I say there was unlimited posting? even with limited posting unless there is a cap on what a single person can buy per day you can buy and stockpile hard people already have tens of billions atm dont think they would see an issue here. Hell they do this with rice IRL they buy huge reserves they know they cant sell right now to jack prices up due to being able to limit the supply.

You are talking about postng 30 items compared to supply of tens of thousands... Also supplies IRL have to be somehow created... In the game they are unlimited and every pleb can swarm the market, especially when someone is tryin to buy it out.. It would only work on few rarest pieces and there playing the market is imo interesting addition to the game... For the 99% of market goods you ahve no chance to stockpile all and control the price with only 30 listings when thousands of people are relisting it cheaper...

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Posted

You are talking about postng 30 items compared to supply of tens of thousands... Also supplies IRL have to be somehow created... In the game they are unlimited and every pleb can swarm the market, especially when someone is tryin to buy it out.. It would only work on few rarest pieces and there playing the market is imo interesting addition to the game... For the 99% of market goods you ahve no chance to stockpile all and control the price with only 30 listings when thousands of people are relisting it cheaper...

Go look at market on other MMOs that show who is posting items you will see it all comes down to a handfull of players on those games posting every single item most people will pick an item or a category to rule over. Also yes there is a chance for people to buy every single item either they are already semi afk in the game for most of the day or they can just run a bot to snipe everything that is being posted it will NOT make anything that is in demand atm be more available than it already is apart from when Riche Rich starts to post his crazy stockpile at the price he considers to be what he wants.

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Posted

Go look at market on other MMOs that show who is posting items you will see it all comes down to a handfull of players on those games posting every single item most people will pick an item or a category to rule over. Also yes there is a chance for people to buy every single item either they are already semi afk in the game for most of the day or they can just run a bot to snipe everything that is being posted it will NOT make anything that is in demand atm be more available than it already is apart from when Riche Rich starts to post his crazy stockpile at the price he considers to be what he wants.

I really am not goin to repeat myself for the fifth time, just bcs another ignorant is causing panic here... :D 

Re-read my posts... You always cherrypick few words from the last and ignore the rest...

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Posted

I really am not goin to repeat myself for the fifth time, just bcs another ignorant is causing panic here... :D 

Re-read my posts... You always cherrypick few words from the last and ignore the rest...

I am not -----ing cherrypicking anything why do you want a free market? so we can have cheaper beer posted? cheaper cooking honey?  what is this gone solve? Sure I wouldent mind cooking honey being cheaper but that doeesnt help me buy blackstones and memory fragments.

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Posted (edited)

I am not -----ing cherrypicking anything why do you want a free market? so we can have cheaper beer posted? cheaper cooking honey?  what is this gone solve? Sure I wouldent mind cooking honey being cheaper but that doeesnt help me buy blackstones and memory fragments.

It will adjust prices that aint in their place by itself and solve supply-demand problems with many goods that currently have it...

And since item are tightly related to each other, we have high tax, long queues, easy unlimited supply which currently just aint worth selling, bidphase, preorders, alerts and even an item listing limit it aint possible for one person to control it... (there are enough control mechanisms even without fixed price)

What it would fix? You would be able to buy friggin blackstones or logs finally and people wont be scammed for pearls trying to get boss gear or horses (yeah its their stupidity, but still its also fault of the system)...

 

edit: only chickenmeat-level-trash would be cheaper... most of prices would actually go up...

Edited by RoakOriginal

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Posted

It will adjust prices that aint in their place by itself and solve supply-demand problems with many goods that currently have it...

And since item are tightly related to each other, we have high tax, long queues, easy unlimited supply which currently just aint worth selling, bidphase, preorders, alerts and even an item listing limit it aint possible for one person to control it... (there are enough control mechanisms even without fixed price)

What it would fix? You would be able to buy friggin blackstones or logs finally and people wont be scammed for pearls trying to get boss gear or horses (yeah its their stupidity, but still its also fault of the system)...

No I already told you it wont solve issues around goods that are in high demand or have you not been reading anything of what I have been writing? blackstones will not as I told you before be available at all apart from when this one person is posting his stock at whatever prices he feels like taking for it which is going to way higher now hell now that gear costs even more to buy people will just increase the price on in demand goods they know that they will sell even more.

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Posted (edited)

No I already told you it wont solve issues around goods that are in high demand or have you not been reading anything of what I have been writing? blackstones will not as I told you before be available at all apart from when this one person is posting his stock at whatever prices he feels like taking for it which is going to way higher now hell now that gear costs even more to buy people will just increase the price on in demand goods they know that they will sell even more.

And i actually told you, you are wrong, and it wasnt only once... I even explained it several times in this topic... And all you guys still come with how someone wont let you buy blackstones... There are several ways to get them (scrolls, quests, seals, crafting, grinding)... And you worry about one person listing 30 of them for higher price? And will this one person buy out every scroll, relic, book, BSP, blood, reagent, block your daily scrolls, win every -----ing bidphase and pre-order and push you out of every grindspot in the game? Holy crap just how paranoid you can be... I'd like to be able to control market... But in BDo with all the shit limiting it and free stuff provided to every pleb, you cant do it... But then again this is sixth time i am repeating myself and once again you ignored everything and procceded to repeat same shit about expensive blackstones...

Guess what.. You aint buyin them now anyway... But you probably dont understand even that...

 

edit: if you came with argument about gold selling or screwing over lifeskills with set income, i would have to agree with you... But all the talk you anti-free market provide here is just BS...

Edited by RoakOriginal

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Posted

No matter what, I will NEVER agree with a controlled market, in a game or IRL....   A free market economy is always what I prefer. 

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Posted

No matter what, I will NEVER agree with a controlled market, in a game or IRL....   A free market economy is always what I prefer. 

Bein it completely free, these conspiracy theories by all these plebs here would actually be possible... But even without fixed pricing, it is regulated enough to prevent it in most cases (and in those few you are still fighting with thousands of people in bidphase)... So it wouldnt be free, but it would be in much healthier state than it is now... (ofc there would need to be some limit, to not sell one log for 100 000 000 silver... But placing that limit at 50x the current max price would be enough... And thats for the cheapest and most sought goods...)

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Posted (edited)

Go look at market on other MMOs that show who is posting items you will see it all comes down to a handfull of players on those games posting every single item most people will pick an item or a category to rule over. Also yes there is a chance for people to buy every single item either they are already semi afk in the game for most of the day or they can just run a bot to snipe everything that is being posted it will NOT make anything that is in demand atm be more available than it already is apart from when Riche Rich starts to post his crazy stockpile at the price he considers to be what he wants.

Why don't we look at Eve Online, fully open market and perfectly functional since they removed tech II BPO carteling many many years ago (like in 2007). The only big influences on prices outside large rebalancing events were due to macro miners (basically like a gathering bot in BDO) and sometimes wars.

As for BDO, let's run a thought experiment. A few minutes of observation told me that at this time of the day on EU server about 100 weapon black stones and 200 armor ones change hands in each market tick. That's each minute. Suppose you are Richie Rich and want to buy them all up to relist at 5m a piece. Assuming the other players are nice enough to sell them to you at 300 and 210k respectively, you are looking at spending 72 million each minute to keep up with incoming sell orders. That's 4.3 billion an hour (at prime time of course). If I remember right, the player with most silver stockpiles on EU had about 17 billion, something like that? It means it would take them four prime time hours to empty their bank stockpiling black stones. And then what? You list them at 5m each and others will immediately undercut you and eventually the price will fall down to where it belongs, losing you silver because of the market tax.

Edited by thdsm

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Posted

Controlled market, very limited trading and forced gender choice in order to play a class you like... There's a lot of control in this game. 

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Controlled market, very limited trading and forced gender choice in order to play a class you like... There's a lot of control in this game. 

One wonders which Korea is developing it, right? :D 

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Posted (edited)

Yet I and others are providing examples and observations, while you are just saying "nope you're wrong".

Also it is a fact that resources and currency work extremely different from real life, especially the most rare ones: everyone in a game starts even (different from rl), but only the most dedicated hardcore grinders get to the top (kinda similar sometimes, but not necessarily). This means that there will always be more demand than supply of said items (again, talking boss gear and TRI+ gear), and if it's true that the sellers only sell at the highest price possible (which should be), then in a free market we are talking several billions for a single item, much like currently works with pre-order (which at least is only 20% afaik).

I'd rather keep my 1/total bidders chance for a fair priced item than the certainty I won't ever have enough to buy it from MP, as I don't play as much as top grinders. The step from there to crazyness is very small, that's the entire concept of a silver sink like the preorder (gives actual spending power to currency without crazy inflating the prices). It is vital that such system is in place for an economy to sustain, otherwise we'd be talking about several millions memfrags only available to "elite" players.

I don't need to say much more because it's as I said, most people against a free market are fear mongering along with having a lack of understanding how economies work, or how people work, or the value of currency. On the flip side, all you and others are saying is "no you're wrong it would lead to a monopoly" we're in a bit of an impasse. The best argument against free market is that it helps prevent gold farmers. Whether it's in-game or not, economies with more control are usually worse because it's contrary to what makes a more unregulated economy work.

Also it is a fact that resources and currency work extremely different from real life, especially the most rare ones:

It's not any fact that resources and currency work extremely different in real life, they do work differently but it's based on human interaction and the laws or regulations around them, apart from some fundamental differences. This still doesn't constitute logic to the statement of it being "extremely different', it's not. Compare what you can, don't pretend something is similar that isn't, I've done none of that. Also everyone in this game can do the same thing.

everyone in a game starts even (different from rl), but only the most dedicated hardcore grinders get to the top (kinda similar sometimes, but not necessarily). This means that there will always be more demand than supply of said items (again, talking boss gear and TRI+ gear),

This statement doesn't make sense you need to be more concise or unpackage it better, you're sort of just saying "the sky is blue therefor cars will always have wheels". You're going to have to explain how you get from hard core gamers being a small percentage of the population to it meaning there's always a high demand than supply, also this goes into game design and resource/market management + population. You're trying to take a " items on this market is expensive in another game so it would happen in this game" approach

I tried to explain why a team of designers decided a close market would be for the best, if you still think it's not there is nothing else to do, as we cannot have a real test.

The way I see it, also from the infographic from a couple months ago, the game is doing fine, actually growing, and I trust designers to understand their system better than we do, also considering further plans they may have which we do not know about.

That's part of the problem, you have unquestioning trust. For some reason you think someone doing something means they know better or have good will. There is something we can do, give feedback or suggestions for fixes. Unless you're the type of person to say "get good" or "but it's the way the game was intended, go play another game this one isn't for you" in which case I suppose you're never angry or irritated when you play because it'd be contrary to the reasoning, and whenever someone says "fix server stability or lag or RNG or change x about y class" you'll say the same thing, "this game isn't for you" ok.

That's aside from the weird combination where you're usually rewarded for spending time through gear, gated by RNG, but then you and others for some reason think players shouldn't be rewarded for time when it comes to the market, then it's "well i guess its fair enough..."

If there was an free and open market in BDO it would end up like every MMO with about 1-5 players would run the marketplace everything would be fed to them they would sit in max gear and accumilate wealth from not even playing the game but clicking a few buttons. Here is something that WILL 100% happen if BDO gets an free market is that one person will sit all day buying blackstones and once the market is dry he will start posting them at 1mil a pop and just buy anything lower than that the second he can and now you are stuck buying at whatever prices this 1 person wants you to pay.

Also 100% free and unregulated markets do not work even in IRL if not I would suggest you read about the market crash in 2008 and how it came about.

Not every MMO

Do you know how the housing market crashed? Do you know about banks and company bailouts? Do you know about communism? Do you know about how usually more government control results in inefficiency, (bad economics and resource usage) along with potentially disastrous results? It appears not because you wouldn't be saying what you were saying if you did.

Edited by Nyhver

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Not every MMO

Do you know how the housing market crashed? Do you know about banks and company bailouts? Do you know about communism? Do you know about how usually more government control results in inefficiency, (bad economics and resource usage) along with potentially disastrous results? It appears not because you wouldn't be saying what you were saying if you did.

Did you know that before they changed regulations that were in place the market crashed caused by the housing bubble in 2008 it was not possible for it to happen in other words it happened there was less goverment control than there had EVER been prior to that point. Go watch a documentary called "Inside Job" maybe then you will see what a unregulated market leads to and will sooner or later happen again. I bet you are one of those people who thins trickle down economics are real and not fiction made by rich people to fool you into letting them become richer than they already were.

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Posted (edited)

Did you know that before they changed regulations that were in place the market crashed caused by the housing bubble in 2008 it was not possible for it to happen in other words it happened there was less goverment control than there had EVER been prior to that point. Go watch a documentary called "Inside Job" maybe then you will see what a unregulated market leads to and will sooner or later happen again. I bet you are one of those people who thins trickle down economics are real and not fiction made by rich people to fool you into letting them become richer than they already were.

What do you think was set up and what decisions were involved that led to it?

Trickle down economics isn't a thing you're just parroting pseudo economics at me as if you know better when you don't

stop baiting me you communist

Edited by Nyhver

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What do you think was set up and what decisions were involved that led to it?

Trickle down economics isn't a thing you're just parroting pseudo economics at me as if you know better when you don't

stop baiting me you communist

You are the one who has no clue about what you are talking about but alright keep thinking things work one way when it works in another I bet you dont even have a clue what made the world economy recover after the crash either or you wouldent be saying these things ;)

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