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Karma greifing

141 posts in this topic

Posted

Generally the best way to deal with people who want you to kill them over and over so that you go neg karma is to play their mind game by staying silent and keep grinding the same mobs. Dont actively go for the mobs said person is going for, just take the packs infront, and slowly the person should leave as the spot turns inefficient. Generally they attemp to grief you become you are stronger and they cant kill you, so that should mean your clearspeed should be equal or faster to the point they are at a disadvantage grinding there.

Ill go one up on that.

If one wants to play in a way that protects their interest from other players they must

1. sort out their life skill income, because thats hands down the best income which will allow you to do steps 2-3

2. Main either witch/wizard or DK

3. Have a alt zerker or ninja

4. Join a guild that grinds in the same channel, preferably the same mobs you want to grind

Now. for the most part, if a person tries to karma greif you, and you cant declare on his guild, you hve 3 options

1. Outgrind him if he is just bad at PVE, call a friend if theres more than one, and completely mess that spot up for anyone, they leave withing a few minutes of realising they cant karma greif you

2. Load up the zerker/ninja and spawn camp them, since this is not your main you wont care about the negative karma. Though there are some that are too stubborn to leave in a timely manner even after that.

3. Grab chain them into mobs, this turns the harrassment right back on them, even if they kill you or you die to mobs you dont care cuz you lose nothing, Just come back and keep grab chaining them, the sheer fear of dying to a mob will make them flee, if they dont then they will lose XP or worse, real life money.

The sole thing I can never understand about people keep coming back to a spot over and over again without the intent of trying to kill a player is that you are literally wasting your own time. Time that could have been better spent if you tried to look for other places/switched channels... I guess the exception is the guildless/protected people that hopes to karma grief you to the extent that you leave the spot but that's just wasting your time yet again in case the person you are griefing doesn't give 2 shts about going negative. Hopefully we will get the kr changes soon.

There is no KR karma change, its not even on the table, it was a rumour on REDDIT that got blown out of proportion.

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Posted

Actually only people with jobs can compete in the game.

No, time only.

meaning you go earn IRL cash while you afk and then buy artisans memories with that hard earned cash that you got from the job.

You're a kid or? You think i'll waste money over Arti mem's? Sounds like i'm working ONLY for this....lol...

The only veterans who arent winning at the game are the nolifers who might be 61 with TRI gear at best, and the ones with jobs too stubborn to spend it on artisan memories or AFK earn cash in the game.
 

Ok so BDO = P2W? è_é (And is being stubborn a bad thing? Or is it being realistic over an obvious milking party?)

Anyway... i won't go any further,talk as long as you want, i see we are not from the same world.

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Posted

Ill go one up on that.
If one wants to play in a way that protects their interest from other players they must

1. sort out their life skill income, because thats hands down the best income which will allow you to do steps 2-3

2. Main either witch/wizard or DK

3. Have a alt zerker or ninja

4. Join a guild that grinds in the same channel, preferably the same mobs you want to grind

Now. for the most part, if a person tries to karma greif you, and you cant declare on his guild, you hve 3 options

1. Outgrind him if he is just bad at PVE, call a friend if theres more than one, and completely mess that spot up for anyone, they leave withing a few minutes of realising they cant karma greif you

2. Load up the zerker/ninja and spawn camp them, since this is not your main you wont care about the negative karma. Though there are some that are too stubborn to leave in a timely manner even after that.

3. Grab chain them into mobs, this turns the harrassment right back on them, even if they kill you or you die to mobs you dont care cuz you lose nothing, Just come back and keep grab chaining them, the sheer fear of dying to a mob will make them flee, if they dont then they will lose XP or worse, real life money.

There is no KR karma change, its not even on the table, it was a rumour on REDDIT that got blown out of proportion.

you sure ? I think it was if you kill x player you won't lose karma for killing him again in the next couple minutes or something 

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Posted


Anyway... i won't go any further,talk as long as you want, i see we are not from the same world.


 

Indeed, you are from a world where you can freely wish people's actual death in a horrible way because salty at a freakin' video game, and then tell people they are immature kids when they talk about in game services, monetized or not.

I don't know what world you come from, but it's a really -----ed up one.

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Posted

Indeed, you are from a world where you can freely wish people's actual death in a horrible way because salty at a freakin' video game, and then tell people they are immature kids when they talk about in game services, monetized or not.

I don't know what world you come from, but it's a really -----ed up one.

Oh come on, don't get yourself fired up now, that is internet for you, maybe you shoud step up your game now....

Take it seriously if you like, i don't care, and btw i'm from the same world as you and sometimes freaks are allowed to speak out loud for everyone, there's a prime example here.

And i'll add: Reality is fked up much more than fantasy/games/books and all you wan't. Once you've seen why "people are strange".

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Posted

No, time only. Wrong, Money is the limitless factor. You literally only need to spend the time taken to get to 60, which when compared to the power cash gets you, isnt that much

You're a kid or? You think i'll waste money over Arti mem's? Sounds like i'm working ONLY for this....lol... If it was a waste Id agree, but have fun trying to compete with someone who uses art memories. Wot, do you work in Mcdonalds or something? Do you have a degree a Lib art degree? You only earn enough to either provide for your basic nessessities or a hobby/plural. If so, then Jesus man get off BDO and get your life on track. If all that isnt true an you STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND that people in this world earn enough to live off WHILE supporting a hobby.... well that'd make you the child.

Ok so BDO = P2W? è_é (And is being stubborn a bad thing? Or is it being realistic over an obvious milking party?) Yes BDO is P2W, Ofcourse being stubborn isnt a bad thing, but that WILL mean you wont be able to compete with P2Ws in BDO. Not lest you've been playing since headstart AND been blessed by RNJesus himself  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anyway... i won't go any further,talk as long as you want, i see we are not from the same world.

you sure ? I think it was if you kill x player you won't lose karma for killing him again in the next couple minutes or something 

Yes. Im VERY sure.

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Posted

Yes BDO is P2W

oooooh... i should call @Plunge to see this right now, ah and don't forget @War.

 If it was a waste Id agree, but have fun trying to compete with someone who uses art memories. Wot, do you work in Mcdonalds or something? Do you have a degree a Lib art degree? You only earn enough to either provide for your basic nessessities or a hobby/plural. If so, then Jesus man get off BDO and get your life on track..

i spent 3k Euros on that game, (btw nice compliment dude, i bet you are close minded) and i find it disgusting. Players are endorsing this moreover, so i guess we got a disgusting community aswell...

 If all that isnt true an you STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND that people in this world earn enough to live off WHILE supporting a hobby.... well that'd make you the child.

Supporting? Milking? Which one is it? kinda violent support here, since they got their "paymentwall" making sure you do the thing.

You seem to like being milked, good.

Ofcourse being stubborn isnt a bad thing, but that WILL mean you wont be able to compete with P2Ws in BDO. Not lest you've been playing since headstart AND been blessed by RNJesus himself 

And i won't try to compete, they can taste my piss actually, i don't care, i grief them most of the time so... I play for fun, not seeing my virtual name over a castle haha... And i find it funny that you admit the P2W thing here, even more... saying that only P2W boys can do endgame, at least we agree on that.

Sad because it's not a bad game, just greedy asses as always.

 

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Posted

If it was a waste Id agree, but have fun trying to compete with someone who uses art memories.

Artisans memories are nothing but a multiplier. Zero multiplied by infinite still remains zero. For someone having a large amount of time at their hands, but no real income in return, this basic example of maths is easily overlooked and I don't particularly blame you for it. If you have all day to play, can attend all the world boss spawns, grind outside of peek-times, supervise even your afk-activities regularly and so on and so forth, I totally understand how you would look at your pile of accumulated gains and think "heck, if I had unlimited artisans memories on top of that, I'd totally win at the game" and you may not even be wrong with that kind of conclusion.

However, the fundamental point you are missing here is that the amount of time you can invest and the amount of funds you cannot invest remain mutually exclusive even - or rather especially - when you reverse those roles: Someone generating enough income to buy unlimited artisans memories cannot dedicate the same hours into the game, because - guess what - being kinda busy generating that kind of income. As a result, this means missing world bosses, only grinding during peek times at overpopulated (or subpar) grind spots, less income generated from afk/worker-related activities and so on and so forth. Even if you p2w some silver on top, in the end this is just silver. At least as far as the EU marketplace goes, you won't be able to get the stuff you would need to p2w with artisans memory reliably. Camping the marketplace is out of the question, because - once again- that person won't have that amount of time.

In the end, you are trying to make an argument entirely around a hypothetical small minority that can - through whatever kind of miracle - play all day and still buy "unlimited" artisans memories in combination. Even if that minority exists, it remains irrelevant when compared to the far larger population who just nolifes the game all day and through that stays far ahead of any attempts to "p2w" by someone with a job and similar real-life commitments.

tl;dr The grass is always greener on the other side.

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Posted

textwall

Thank you very much <3.

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Posted

XP loss on PVP death is needed pretty bad. Right now anyone ccan keep coming and coming at you even if you wipe the floor with them. No setbacks whatsoever.

 

Let me tl;dr for the lazy devs:

 

We NEED XP LOSS ON PVP DEATH

learn manners and learn to share

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Posted

You cry about karma grief, but if they bring back EXP on death for PvP, then this will open up a whole new world of chaos for PvE players.
Why should i lose EXP because some rude **** thought it was okay to kill me for autopathing my horse outside of town?

Currently, if someone flags up and murders me while I'm busy with PvE stuff, i lose nothing, so i have nothing to worry about. I can just come back and continue.
If EXP loss on death returns to the game, i would be losing my time that I've wasted from my hours of grinding, just because someone doesn't like PvE players.
This is the reason they removed the EXP loss on death in the first place.

And please don't give me that bs about "well this is a PvP game, deal with it". Just because a game has PvP elements, that does NOT make the entire game a PvP game. Same can be said about other systems that are ingame. Just because this game has lifeskill/PvE elements, that does not make the entire game a lifeskill/PvE game.

So why should Lifeskill/PvE players have their fun ruined, so you can have some petty war over a grinding spot?

Since day1 of this games release, the PvP and Karma system had been used in a way which was unintended, and hurt a massive portion of the communities gameplay because of either PK'ers, Hackers flagging up to steal grind spots, or full guilds who go out of their way to hunt down gatherers and farmers. So of course the system was changed so that us players who didn't want to PvP, was not forced to put up with the punishment of losing EXP for being unable to fight back.

I like the system as it is.

If you hate people taking your grind spot, then learn to share! We have party systems.... We have more than 1 channel (or Server, as most people call them)... We have more than 1 grind location...
If you cannot out-grind someone who comes into 'your' grinding areas (Not that is has your name on it in the first place), then you shouldn't be solo farming there.
If you have a party that cannot out-grind someone who comes into 'your' grinding area, then your whole party needs to learn how to properly play.

Sorry if this hurts to read, but this is how the system is, and it's like this for a reason. Nothing will change.

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Posted

You cry about karma grief, but if they bring back EXP on death for PvP, then this will open up a whole new world of chaos for PvE players.
Why should i lose EXP because some rude **** thought it was okay to kill me for autopathing my horse outside of town?

Currently, if someone flags up and murders me while I'm busy with PvE stuff, i lose nothing, so i have nothing to worry about. I can just come back and continue.
If EXP loss on death returns to the game, i would be losing my time that I've wasted from my hours of grinding, just because someone doesn't like PvE players.
This is the reason they removed the EXP loss on death in the first place.

And please don't give me that bs about "well this is a PvP game, deal with it". Just because a game has PvP elements, that does NOT make the entire game a PvP game. Same can be said about other systems that are ingame. Just because this game has lifeskill/PvE elements, that does not make the entire game a lifeskill/PvE game.

So why should Lifeskill/PvE players have their fun ruined, so you can have some petty war over a grinding spot?

Since day1 of this games release, the PvP and Karma system had been used in a way which was unintended, and hurt a massive portion of the communities gameplay because of either PK'ers, Hackers flagging up to steal grind spots, or full guilds who go out of their way to hunt down gatherers and farmers. So of course the system was changed so that us players who didn't want to PvP, was not forced to put up with the punishment of losing EXP for being unable to fight back.

I like the system as it is.

If you hate people taking your grind spot, then learn to share! We have party systems.... We have more than 1 channel (or Server, as most people call them)... We have more than 1 grind location...
If you cannot out-grind someone who comes into 'your' grinding areas (Not that is has your name on it in the first place), then you shouldn't be solo farming there.
If you have a party that cannot out-grind someone who comes into 'your' grinding area, then your whole party needs to learn how to properly play.

Sorry if this hurts to read, but this is how the system is, and it's like this for a reason. Nothing will change.

And this is the type of player bdo was designed for. It's not bad, it's just the way it is. I'll reiterate , bdo has pvp but it's not a pvp centric game.

Normalized ap  arenas are the only hope for people who like competitive pvp.

 

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Posted

 stuff

Your entire its a multiplyer argument falls flat. if for example TODAY BDO came out with a cash shop item that allows me to boost my xp to 500% stackable with all other types of XP boosts, If i do not even play the game at ALL id have no progress, but if i play the game EVEN A LITTLE, it gives me a boost 500% more than anyone else who doesnt use the cash shop.

I mean, if you use that arguement if today they start selling PEN gear in the cash shop, its still not P2W because if i dont play at all its till 0 x PEN = 0 hence not P2W amirite?

You actually have no idea how much money you can make with minimum effort in this game do you? the key word being MINIMUM. Meaning i dont have to grind all day, dont have to camp bosses, dont have to be available to supervise all day and night and i STILL end up with a LOT of money, And artisan memories allow me to turn that LOT of money into either even more Money OR straight up upgrades.

since you made that statement about artsian memories being a multiplier argument, Try this on for size, Quantify playtime into a maximum number of 24, I can only play actively for 2 hours a day where a nolifer, being what he is can dedicate round the clock.
So my play time = 2 and his is 24. if artisans is a multiplyer then me having a theoretical unlimited amount means technically i have unlimited progress, The no lifer, since he doesnt have art mems, is limited to 24.

You do not need to camp the market place, one who uses art memory will use the market as he would have despite the existance or inexistance of artisan memories. The No lifer might to a combination of camping and preordering, the person while one who cant no life just preorders, either way, Art mems allow them to SIGNIFICANTLY boost what their progress through a cash shop item that is not available in any SIGNIFICANT way to a non cash shop user

The fundemental point that you seem to not realise is that it takes VERY LITTLE TIME and EFFORT to accumulate a meaningful amount of income in BDO, Meaningfull enough to use art mems on.

At the very worst, the art mem system allows me to bypass effort and compete with the nolifer, at worst, it allows me to completely overtake him

And EVEN in the scenario where you have to no life in order to reap the rewards of art mems, which you do not, not EVEN in the EU market, The fact that Art Mems allows one Nolifer to overtake another without effort input is STILL p2W. Are you going to shut down a no lifer who doesnt use the cash shop and complains that another nolifer overtook him through in art mems? Really are you going to tell him that his complain is just invalid and he should just use Art mems as well?

In the end you are operating under the assumption that it takes a lot of time and effort to make worthwhile gains in BDO, enough to use Art mems with, you are wrong, or you are suggesting that cash shop items that allow one to boost their progress SIGNIFICANTLY and INDEFINITELY vs non cash shop user who is of a similar gameply state IS NOT P2W. which is also, WRONG.

TLDR: Art mems are P2W.

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Posted

You are griefing yourself. Enjoy.

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yea lets remove karma so all high geared players will continuously without any penalty can kill new low geared players, oh and yes extra xp loss so they wont even get higher lvl cuz u keep removing all their effort and not be able to grind in a good exp place because all pro high geared players playing 10+ hours a day will not give u any chance ... 11/10  , I have never been karma griefed, probably because I just talk friendly and tell em how many mobs I have left or exp to lvl... 

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People don't have a clue what griefing really is.  Just because someone shows up at the same location you are grinding in and starts killing mobs doesn't mean they are a griefer.  You people need to start saying what you really mean which is that you get pissed when someone else grinds in an area that you "perceive" that you own even though you are grinding in a common area that is open to everyone to grind in.  Well, you don't get to make the rules in this game. If you want to lay claim to the spot then you need to kill them, out grind them or leave.  Karma system is working just fine.

This is what makes a person a griefer (taken from Wikipedia; bold added for emphisis):

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

If a players intent is to kill mobs in the same area you are grinding in that doesn't make them a griefer.  If their intent in grinding mobs in that area is because they are getting pleasure from annoying you then it is griefing.  To determine what the other players intention is just move off to another grind area.  If they continue to follow you around and kill the same mobs that you are attacking then most likely they are doing it because they are getting pleasure from annoying you (I actually had this happen once in the past year).  If they don't follow you but instead just keep grinding where they are then most likely their intent was just to grind the mobs and therefore are not a griefer.  They are simply playing the game as it is designed to be played.

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Posted (edited)

If EXP loss on death returns to the game, i would be losing my time that I've wasted from my hours of grinding, just because someone doesn't like PvE players.

 

So why should Lifeskill/PvE players have their fun ruined, so you can have some petty war over a grinding spot?

 

Not commenting on the return of XP on PvP death, because on that point I agree and think there could be better measures with the current karma system for it get out of this law void it's currently in (timer, debuff ... something temporary only), but that is exactly what is wrong with your mindset, like there was some kind of cabale to target PvE players, when we are in a PvX game, you say it yourself.

On a sidenote a player eliminating your avatar on a grindspot is more than often a better player than you in every, or at least most aspects of the game.
PvE, lifeskills, trading, PvP ...
Not just a PvP psychopath.
You need to be efficient everywhere once at a certain point to progress due to the costs every further step implies (gear is not cheap).

Morevoer you don't have a label over your head telling "PvE" or " PvP".

A player flagging on you doesn't know what you kind of feature you prefer, and doesn't care.
He flags because he thinks that you annoy him, for whatever reason, not just because he "doesn't like PvE players" since he is one also. These basic binary distinctions have no place in BDO. Stop watching your belly button, playing the victim and putting labels everywhere (this one is PvE, thos other one is PvP ... ), that leads nowhere and is based on nothing but hurt personnal feelings and frustration.

 

Hackers flagging up to steal grind spots

 What hackers are you talking about ?
Since when Alt + C is a hack ???

Edited by Capitaine Courage

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Because they are weak -----s with no friends who cant kill anyone or take a rotation themselves, and are in fact karma bombers.

But the only way to get stronger is to grind, which means they need a spot, by taking yours makes them stronger, no?
Just a perspective that i'm sure you won't see because of sodium concentrate in your eyelids.

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TLDR: Art mems are P2W.

No, they are convenience items.  They will not provide you with gear that is far greater than any that can be obtained simply by playing the game.  Convenience items just speed up the process. 

The convenience items sold help to create a balance between the advantage gained from factors that are external to the game (time and money).  If they didn't make convenience items available on the cash shop then the only external factor that would provide advantage in the game would be time which would be unfair to those people that have less time to play but have more money to spend as a result.

The phrase "pay to win" has been distorted so much since we first started using it, about eighteen years ago, that it has reached the point of obscurity.  The only use it plays in discussing the availability of convenience items on the cash shop is as a means to strike at peoples emotions to further your own biased position.  No honest argument can take place over the convenience items until people stop using the phrase p2w and address the issue as a balance issue between the two external factors that provide advantage in the game: time and money.

Because this is an issue of balance, no one item (see note below) can be addressed in isolation from the other factors that provide advantage.  It must be addressed as a whole; the advantage provided from time vs. the advantage provided from money.  It seems to me that the best balance in the advantage obtained from time and money is the one that gives the best balance for the greatest number of players.  Where that balance should lye, I don't know, but that is what the discussion should be about.

Note:  For example if a player that only has time to play BDO three hours per day on week days, but can spend money on AMs, will they be at a much greater advantage over a player that can play twelve hours per day but can't afford to buy AMs?  There are many other factors involved that would affect the balance and all of them would need to be taken into consideration.

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I ve read most of the replies in the thread, I find it funny that everyone recalls the xp loss period of the game as a non stop slaughter of everyone by the most geared at the time...sorry but that was never the case, no people werent going rampant on everyone just cause...Yeah top spots on some channels were locked down by large guilds but that was that.....I do remember though that people were hell of a lot more polite back then than the people I meet now whenever I push myself to go grind....

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I ve read most of the replies in the thread, I find it funny that everyone recalls the xp loss period of the game as a non stop slaughter of everyone by the most geared at the time...sorry but that was never the case, no people werent going rampant on everyone just cause...Yeah top spots on some channels were locked down by large guilds but that was that.....I do remember though that people were hell of a lot more polite back then than the people I meet now whenever I push myself to go grind....

I wasn't level 45 yet before they made the change, so I missed on this "more polite" period you reminisce about. 

But since I reached PvP level on any of my toons, the only times I've been attacked and/or killed, the person who attacked me didn't say anything, and some times I wasn't even aware that they were there (or I was just running by on my way to hand in a quest).  The times I've encountered people while grinding that have talked to me, we were able to sort things out amicably to our mutual satisfaction.

 

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I ve read most of the replies in the thread, I find it funny that everyone recalls the xp loss period of the game as a non stop slaughter of everyone by the most geared at the time...sorry but that was never the case, no people werent going rampant on everyone just cause...Yeah top spots on some channels were locked down by large guilds but that was that.....I do remember though that people were hell of a lot more polite back then than the people I meet now whenever I push myself to go grind....

I was in a guild doing just that. we never let anyone near our spots,we would destroy any forms of transportation you have and spawn camp you,your stubborn? didn't matter we were there for 8-12 hours at a time.

you really think the game can suffer another wave of what me and many other guilds did? I doubt it.

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Posted (edited)

I was in a guild doing just that. we never let anyone near our spots,we would destroy any forms of transportation you have and spawn camp you,your stubborn? didn't matter we were there for 8-12 hours at a time.
you really think the game can suffer another wave of what me and many other guilds did? I doubt it.

There are 32 channels and lots of alternative grindspots now so guilds have no reason to do this at this stage of the game, this is no mediah launch with sausan being farmed by 5 5 man groups 24/7...Oh btw the game never suffered a population drop cause of pvp, only from bad decisions made by the developer....

Edited by Hayate
Added something

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Posted (edited)

Sorry your a cry baby that can't handle it.

EVERY SINGLE PLAYER WHO PK'S ACTS TOUGH LIKE THEY GOT THE BEST OF IT

And then somehow all these people come to the forums crying about it like they got beat down

 

How about this, screw you, KAKAO and PEARL and those so called PVPers

You want to fight, you want competition?  I'll hunt anywhere I please whenever I please and the only thing you can do is get out of the way.  I run this yard and you don't belong.

 

PVPers mainly want to dominate and harass others.  They don't want real fights where they lose often.  The real game is WHO CONTROLS THE AREA.  AND THAT ISN'T YOU IT'S A TOUGHER MOTHER FER LIKE ME.

 

#not_as_feeble_as_you_think

People don't have a clue what griefing really is.  Just because someone shows up at the same location you are grinding in and starts killing mobs doesn't mean they are a griefer.  You people need to start saying what you really mean which is that you get pissed when someone else grinds in an area that you "perceive" that you own even though you are grinding in a common area that is open to everyone to grind in.  Well, you don't get to make the rules in this game. If you want to lay claim to the spot then you need to kill them, out grind them or leave.  Karma system is working just fine.

This is what makes a person a griefer (taken from Wikipedia; bold added for emphisis):

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

If a players intent is to kill mobs in the same area you are grinding in that doesn't make them a griefer.  If their intent in grinding mobs in that area is because they are getting pleasure from annoying you then it is griefing.  To determine what the other players intention is just move off to another grind area.  If they continue to follow you around and kill the same mobs that you are attacking then most likely they are doing it because they are getting pleasure from annoying you (I actually had this happen once in the past year).  If they don't follow you but instead just keep grinding where they are then most likely their intent was just to grind the mobs and therefore are not a griefer.  They are simply playing the game as it is designed to be played.

God dam seriously.  You're still on this?

How many months are you going to post this same text.

Edited by feebleone

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Posted (edited)

But the only way to get stronger is to grind, which means they need a spot, by taking yours makes them stronger, no?Just a perspective that i'm sure you won't see because of sodium concentrate in your eyelids.

I mean they wont be able to take mine but sure.

 

There are plenty of rotations and plenty of servers that they can switch to without being asshats and taking someone elses

Edited by Josh2

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