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Karma greifing

141 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I think you meant to say a P2W walleter.

 

Nope. We need the PK'er to lose 25-50% XP for an unfair kill. If your opponent doesn't fight back you should lose a large chunk of your level.

Isn't Karma Bombing the exact opposite of Pay2Win.

It literally gives immense power to the weakest geared, YET STRONGEST AT HEART.

 

BDO IS PLAGUED IN DESIGN BY THE CASH SHOP MODEL, BUT NOT PAY2WIN

(THE RNG SYSTEM WAS SUPPOSED TO BE PAY2WIN, BUT THEY REMOVED THAT ISSUE AND LEFT THE FAULTY RNG)

STILL 100% BETTER THAN PURE PAY2WIN

SELLING FAILSTACKS WOULD MAKE BDO PAY2WIN HANDS DOWN

Well, darlin', I don't complain about the karma system.  And your point wasn't made by the comment that I quoted.  Though you'd have to be beyond idiot level of crying to think that actions don't have consequences.  That isn't something you can argue against.  There is plenty of recourse for action in this game, whether it's PKing or Karma Bombing.

Would the game work better if everyone were much more civil?  Arguable, because the environment pushes a might makes right agenda.  It's about competition and strength.  Would it be more pleasant?  Yeah, totally.

Yet let's look at the big point people do actually bring up, that is arguable: "This spot doesn't belong to you, learn to share."

That is the biggest load of hypocrisy that can be mustered for trying to tell someone it's okay for you to shit all over their day.  If you can't see anything wrong with this, check yourself.  When someone adds on your spot and won't leave, it's a form of bullying.  If you're going to cite acting politely, you don't add on the spot.  You ask if you can join them, or better yet, say you're LFG in channel chat, or best start your own group.  There are ways to share a spot, and get groups, if you don't want to do that, and choose to bully your way into the spot via karma bombing, you're the belligerent one.

Say whatever you like.  Though you're blind if you think this isn't a two way street.

I find your posts disgusting.

A: In 1,000's of hours I rarely ever came across someone who intentionally just "Karma Bombed"

B: A HUGE portion of so called "Karma Bombing" is people trying to solo known group areas, OR players trying to steal a "taken area" and then cry they get Karma bombed.

The whole Karma system is aids.

I was grinding yesterday, and I saw this dude nearby, but not directly in my area. He was doing a diff rotation/area, cool. Drive on bud! However...He then decided to encroach in my area. The first time I simply said "Do you mind?" and kept killing. The 2nd time, I less politely said "Dude, I know you've seen me, I've been here for hours." to which he replied "I don't care." Then I simply flagged and killed him. He then proceeded to get mad that I killed him, and kept coming back and deliberately killing my mobs in the middle of my rotation. Long story short, I killed him until I went -152k Karma, then I had to leave as I had no intention of staying perma red. In the end though, he won.

However...I shall remember this dude, and shall kill him on sight anytime I see him moving forward. lol.

Do tell me, how exactly would you be able to tell if someone fights back or not? That idea is a no go from me. Someone starts to attack you, then mid fight realizes they are losing, then stops fighting back. I'm supposed to lose that much XP? Nah homie.

Also on the flip side...This could be "abused" Stay at 0% at 60/61. Never worry about XP again.

If you're in an area and get PK'd, you have multiple options. Fight back and kill them, kill the mobs faster than them and drive them out, annoy them to the point where they flag and kill you until they are forced to leave (this shit is retarded), and go to another area. If you can't DEFEND the spot you're in, do you really have any business being there? IMO, No.

Just FYI if you ever PK me .. [Deleted]

It's nearly impossible for players to ever win with that strategy ;)

In fact I go out of my way to teach them a lesson with long term consequences.

Never said anyone spot belonged to anyone, but you should have the ability to DEFEND the spot you're at. Right now, someone can just come in, deliberately die to you, and eventually push you out. That's not fun, challenging, or rewarding. That's some BS. If you can't control or defend your spot, you don't deserve it. Survival of the fittest has been around a long long time. If you want something, take it. Right now, as is, everything is handed to you. You just have to karma bomb them, and you'll eventually get what you want.

If I read this correctly, you said it's not like the good ole days when higher players could steal any spot they wanted.  It's just to tough today because it's on equal grounds.  I miss the old days when 2 or 3 players would run in on a group and just steal it because they had better gear.

I miss the massive exploiting that was going on because PEARL developers are lazy morons.  Players unable to lose exp or crystals while PKing for 1%.

[Deleted content] Inappropriate language

Edited by p0hil
[Deleted content] Inappropriate language

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Posted

I find your posts disgusting.

A: In 1,000's of hours I rarely ever came across someone who intentionally just "Karma Bombed"

B: A HUGE portion of so called "Karma Bombing" is people trying to solo known group areas, OR players trying to steal a "taken area" and then cry they get Karma bombed.

Just FYI if you ever PK me I will ram it up your a$$.

It's nearly impossible for players to ever win with that strategy ;)

In fact I go out of my way to teach them a lesson with long term consequences.

 

Bolded part wasn't a reply to me, but it'll be addressed later anyway.

You find my posts disgusting because you've rarely ever come across someone who intentionally karma bombed, and that a "huge portion" of it is people trying to solo a group area, or people stealing a "taken area" and then crying they get bombed.

Well...let's break that down a bit.

Are there taken areas?  Does it belong to anyone?  If you have a different position than most "karma griefers" , maybe you should define it before going on and on.

the point i made was that there are people who will jam an area and and simply outgrind you, tell you it's your problem and not theirs, but they will never attack you, because they know it's to their advantage if you flag first.

The idea that the person adding on the area isn't the instigator is laughable.

 

Especially when you say things like, "If you PK me I will ram it up your a$$" and "inf act I go out of my way to teach them a lesson with long term consequences"

Now, if you are only referring to people who add on your area, that's fine.  If they start it, then they have to deal with the consequences.  Yet I actually have come across the people who say they don't care if i was there first, or if i don't like them being there, I should flag or leave.  That's the situation karma bombing has brought.

It's getting the point where I actually applaud people for running into the rotation i'm using, flagging and attacking me without preamble, because at least they're upfront about what they want.  ;)

 

but let's not get to out of hand here.  Yes, there are a lot of people who will add on an area, see you, say "my bad" and then leave/change channels.  I give them a chance to do that, because of the fact that attacking them for what could be an honest mistake is unnecessary.

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Posted

Bolded part wasn't a reply to me, but it'll be addressed later anyway.

You find my posts disgusting because you've rarely ever come across someone who intentionally karma bombed, and that a "huge portion" of it is people trying to solo a group area, or people stealing a "taken area" and then crying they get bombed.

Well...let's break that down a bit.

Are there taken areas?  Does it belong to anyone?  If you have a different position than most "karma griefers" , maybe you should define it before going on and on.

the point i made was that there are people who will jam an area and and simply outgrind you, tell you it's your problem and not theirs, but they will never attack you, because they know it's to their advantage if you flag first.

The idea that the person adding on the area isn't the instigator is laughable.

 

Especially when you say things like, "If you PK me I will ram it up your a$$" and "inf act I go out of my way to teach them a lesson with long term consequences"

Now, if you are only referring to people who add on your area, that's fine.  If they start it, then they have to deal with the consequences.  Yet I actually have come across the people who say they don't care if i was there first, or if i don't like them being there, I should flag or leave.  That's the situation karma bombing has brought.

It's getting the point where I actually applaud people for running into the rotation i'm using, flagging and attacking me without preamble, because at least they're upfront about what they want.  ;)

 

but let's not get to out of hand here.  Yes, there are a lot of people who will add on an area, see you, say "my bad" and then leave/change channels.  I give them a chance to do that, because of the fact that attacking them for what could be an honest mistake is unnecessary.

It's about the overall idea that Karma Bombers are always portrayed as running in already camped areas and trying to steal everything.

Today most players don't seem to care anyway.  If I'm hunting the main rotation at Pirates/Sausan any party will try to over take it.  They simply won't have any tolerance for someone to solo the area.  Even a duo/trio will often be attacked.

When it gets very crowded higher geared players will often try to just push anyone out regardless.

These situations may be very different, but they all get lumped into Karma Bombing in the end.

 

Personally, I don't care about anyone.  I lay claim to any area I want whenever I want indefinitely.  No one has a claim to anything.  If they want to force me out, they will spend hours trying.  Anyone who comes into conflict risks long term consequences.  I'll hunt on top of them or a full party just because I can later on, even when an entire area and other areas are free.

I'll pk, karma bomb, mob kill, break rotations, and never stop.

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Posted

and never stop.

Welp, if that's how you honestly want to spend your time.  Carry on.  I'd rather get exp, really don't care enough about other people to try and ruin their day.  Then again, I don't even go to Sausans/Pirates unless someone is trying to force out a guildmate who was already there.  Never had a good experience with it when I used to try to exp  there.

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Posted (edited)

Welp, if that's how you honestly want to spend your time.  Carry on.  I'd rather get exp, really don't care enough about other people to try and ruin their day.  Then again, I don't even go to Sausans/Pirates unless someone is trying to force out a guildmate who was already there.  Never had a good experience with it when I used to try to exp  there.

Actually, I gain the most exp & loot because I am the strongest, aka most determined.

While the areas will often be contended I will yield the highest results and often force others out including full parties.

 

The true sign of strength is I could play a low level character with poor equipment and still dominate.  Something others simply can't understand.

Edited by feebleone

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Posted

karma _______ing doesn't exist.... See? There's no letters in it. It must not exist.

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Posted

Actually, I gain the most exp & loot because I am the strongest, aka most determined.

While the areas will often be contended I will yield the highest results and often force others out including full parties.

 

The true sign of strength is I could play a low level character with poor equipment and still dominate.  Something others simply can't understand.

you're right.  I don't understand.  Are you saying that simply because you can make people negative when they kill you for disrupting their grinding?  Actually don't get it.

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Posted (edited)

you're right.  I don't understand.  Are you saying that simply because you can make people negative when they kill you for disrupting their grinding?  Actually don't get it.

Who said I was disrupting their grinding?

PEARL left the game open as a Zoo, pretty much anything goes.

If I was there first, in a party, there for hours, or minutes, none of that really makes any difference unless players choose to abide by social designed norms, not game rules.

 

The point I'm making is players think because they have high gear/levels/clans they are "Powerful".  That's NOT that powerful in BDO.  Determination is power.  Intelligence is power.  Playing smart is power.

 

You can reverse the example and I still win.  When I play my main capable of destroying an entire party, it's not viable to PK them.  In fact it's downright stupid.  Instead I will choose a smart option.  Leave the channel, compete for spawn, go to another area.  What I can't do is lower my IQ to the idiocy of these people going red and whining how the Karma System doesn't work.

Edited by feebleone

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Posted

Who said I was disrupting their grinding?

PEARL left the game open as a Zoo, pretty much anything goes.

If I was there first, in a party, there for hours, or minutes, none of that really makes any difference unless players choose to abide by social designed norms, not game rules.

 

The point I'm making is players think because they have high gear/levels/clans they are "Powerful".  That's NOT that powerful in BDO.  Determination is power.  Intelligence is power.  Playing smart is power.

 

You can reverse the example and I still win.  When I play my main capable of destroying an entire party, it's not viable to PK them.  In fact it's downright stupid.  Instead I will choose a smart option.  Leave the channel, compete for spawn, go to another area.  What I can't do is lower my IQ to the idiocy of these people going red and whining how the Karma System doesn't work.

I guess what I'm confused about is that your position seems to not be consistent with your first response to the post that got us talking.  You're making fine sense here, out of context of it, and I'm understanding your position as it seems to evolve.

Though i'd like to say, someone with better gear and levels is more powerful if they are also determined.  If you can wipe a party, that's cool.  Good for you.  Though you make it sound like you wouldn't, so that power is actually worthless.  It's only if you have the desire to use it that it matters at all.

I agree this game is a jungle, and no one has to play by the rules the other guy is, though.

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Posted (edited)

No. Just. No.

You're going to make griefing even worse by giving the power to regress someone else. What I mean by that is, you'll be able to take away progress from someone else directly just by PK'ng them. Sure, losing Karma to the point of going negative sucks and they should change the system. In the meantime, there's not much we can do apart from using the mechanics we have right now.

If it bothers you that much to lose Karma, then don't press ALT + C. Try and be civil with the other person. If you can't be bothered to take a minute of your time to explain to them they're ruining your rotation, then you deserve the Karma loss. Sometimes it turns out they are just doing a quest and aren't familiar with the rotations. Educate them or invite them - they'll get their quest done faster and move on.

If they won't listen, then out farm them. They'll soon get bored with their failed troll/grief attempt and move on. Alternatively, have an alt nearby specifically meant for being red. There's many ways the community can stop this behavior. Like just by saying "Karma bombing is annoying get rid of it, argh argh" puts the idea in these troll's/griefers heads to actually go out and do it because they're sociopaths. You think giving them the power to deliberately make someone lose 1% EXP will make griefing go away? It will make matters a lot worse, I promise you.

Ask yourself this. Would you rather lose Karma or lose 1% EXP?

1% EXP loss is a lot once you hit level 60 plus. These trolls will target well-known streamers and kill them over and over. Heck they'll probably look through the in-game growth ranking, pay the NPC in Vellia to find out where the highest leveled guy is grinding and run there in a group and kill 'em.

The better idea would be to have increasing ress timers from being killed by the same player over and over. Which ofc wouldn't be affected by mutual pvp, such as dueling, wars and siege etc.

Edited by Amethus

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Posted

No. Just. No.

You're going to make griefing even worse by giving the power to regress someone else. What I mean by that is, you'll be able to take away progress from someone else directly just by PK'ng them. Sure, losing Karma to the point of going negative sucks and they should change the system. In the meantime, there's not much we can do apart from using the mechanics we have right now.

If it bothers you that much to lose Karma, then don't press ALT + C. Try and be civil with the other person. If you can't be bothered to take a minute of your time to explain to them they're ruining your rotation, then you deserve the Karma loss. Sometimes it turns out they are just doing a quest and aren't familiar with the rotations. Educate them or invite them - they'll get their quest done faster and move on.

If they won't listen, then out farm them. They'll soon get bored with their failed troll/grief attempt and move on. Alternatively, have an alt nearby specifically meant for being red. There's many ways the community can stop this behavior. Like just by saying "Karma bombing is annoying get rid of it, argh argh" puts the idea in these troll's/griefers heads to actually go out and do it because they're sociopaths. You think giving them the power to deliberately make someone lose 1% EXP will make griefing go away? It will make matters a lot worse, I promise you.

Ask yourself this. Would you rather lose Karma or lose 1% EXP?

1% EXP loss is a lot once you hit level 60 plus. These trolls will target well-known streamers and kill them over and over. Heck they'll probably look through the in-game growth ranking, pay the NPC in Vellia to find out where the highest leveled guy is grinding and run there in a group and kill 'em.

The better idea would to have increasing ress timers from being killed by the same player over and over. Which ofc wouldn't be affected by mutual pvp, such as dueling, wars and siege etc.

It's mostly correct, but there are some major faults.

I can't be reasoned with, I am taking the area Every Day period.

It's nearly impossible to outkill me.

I need far less kills than a party to be efficient.

Sending a player to town enhances "griefing".  It means I can dump my Karma (millions produced every day) on players for harsher penalties.  If they brought back the exp penalty I would burn it on players too.

Sending a player to town includes taking a rotation from someone not just defending your own.

The 1% exp loss was a joke.  Whoever allowed that should be fired for incompetence.

 

If any penalty was given for PKing then you should HAVE ZERO POSITIVE KARMA.  One kill and your red.  You will see the "tough pvpers" flee from this.  All those hardcore "it's a PVP game" people just shut up right away.

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Posted

That's right folks!

 

Killing random mobs in the world that someone else wanted to kill is Griefing, but taking away xp and undo hours of someones work is not.

Every single time i get killed in pvp it is because other people are trying to bully me out of a spot i was at first, or just entirely at random while running through an area to get somewhere else and suddenly get jumped by 3 people and told to "leave or die". ----- those guys, and ----- anyone suggesting i should be punished harshly for this dickish behavior.

Right now there is some highly geared Wizard or whatever deliberately running around the Olvia channels and PKing new players, over and over. Already making it impossible for these players to grind, but no, they should also lose xp now? Good way to kill off any influx of new players, and we know BDO needs those new players.

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Posted

lol...Another psychopath is demanding a right to exercise his disorder. How about no?

 

 

 

 

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lol...Another psychopath is demanding a right to exercise his disorder. How about no?

 

 

 

 

agreed.  These pk clowns advocating for exp loss need psychotherapy.  Sick individuals 

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Posted (edited)

I don't know, it kinda depends. I personally try to be civil with people and first talk if they get in rotation I'm doing or happen to kill same mobs we need for guildquest. 

On the other hand, karma is a nice way to punish self-important a**holes who think it's "THEIR SPOT". A little example. Few days ago I went to a place to grind a bit and use 200% xp. Looked around, no ppl in whole zone, found a rotation I like, popped the 200%. 10minutes grinding and chill, two guys come, wait until I pull mobs and then flag on, try to knock me down and let mobs kill me. After that failing couple time they just outright kill me and go "spot taken f*ck off".  What do? Supposedly as someone tried to tell me before, if you get killed means you don't deserve the spot and you must leave it, some kind of 'unspoken rule'. Well I ain't taking this. If they talked to me, could have explained I only had 20mins left and spot is all theirs. But no. So for that night my main goal in life was to ruin their evening until they leave the spot. So I went there and died, killed them as well and died some more until about after 1hr of this they left. You gonna call me filthy karma bombing scrub? Try putting yourself in this place, you get back from all day in work, pop your 200% and then someone decides you are in 'his spot' and therefore outright kills you without a word. And that is normal and you have to be fine with it. Meeeeh, we civil if we civil, but if you are an arse, then I'm gonna be the same. 

TL;DR: If you are an arse then expect to be treated like one and don't complain about someone being a karma bomber. 

 

Rant aside, I'd like to see same flag/karma system lineage2 had/has.

If you flag up, your name goes purple and you can attack other players regardless if they are flagged or not. You can be attacked by other players as well, but once a white player attacks you they get flagged as well and go purple. The winner is the winner.  IMPORTANT THING. If you want to flag on a white player you have to click a key(ctrl in case of l2) while using skills in order to 'force' the skills. That is a protection mechanics to prevent people from suiciding to flagged ppl to get them red.

If you flag up on a white player and they don't hit you and flag back, but you still kill them, your name goes red and you get karma points. While being red, anyone can attack you, the guards will attack you and players who hit/kill you will not get flagged nor go red. You can remove your karma points by killing mobs, but while being red you do not receive any xp/spxp until you reach 0 karma and go white again. If you die to a player or a monster you lose xp. If you die to a player your karma count gets decreased a little, but if you die to environment your karma does not decrease. 

Positive karma is bad in this case, 0 karma is good. Can be reversed for BDO.

If you PK players who are set amount of levels below you, you gain much more karma, thus taking it longer to remove it. 

In lineage2 they had a mechanic that if mob does not give you xp, killing it won't decrease karma. In bdo they could do it with levels, say only white and higher mobs can remove karma, that would help to avoid PK players going to safe low lvl zones to wash their sins.

In l2 there was also a PK count for each character and after you reach 4 PK(later changed to 31 if I am not mistaken), if you get killed while being red, there is a small chance to drop a piece of equipment. Higher PK count = higher chance to drop gear if you die while being red. 

This might be too hardcore for BDO, tho I'd just like to say that getting gear in l2 was as hard even if not harder, thus losing it in there is a major loss as well. 

If not item drop, they could either give a chance to decrease enhance levels past certain amount of PK count(only applies if you die while being red) or maybe you could lose much more xp.

I know you will say that this will give a good chance for griefers to ruin even more ppl, but that can be easily fixed with xp loss on pvp death as well. 

But what about node wars and sieges you say. Well that is easy, during node war/siege you kinda enter 'combat zone' or 'combat state' and during that you do not take penalties during pvp and anyone in 'combat zone' can be killed freely without any penalties, thus you can not gain karma and go red.

You say ppl will make lvl 50 toons and go grief lvl 60s to get them higher karma penalties. That would not work either, since to attack someone you have to be flagged. If you hit someone who is flagged, you get a flag yourself.  Remember at the start of this, I mentioned that you have to click a key to 'force' your skills. Therefore, if you are flagged and someone is not and they just want to walk into your skills, they can do it all they want, nothing will happen. They will only take the damage if you choose to hit them. And a lvl50 cannot outfarm or rotation ruin a lvl 60. Problem solved.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Karma takes long to take down to 0. It's not that you can kill 5 monsters and go PK again. At higher PK and Karma counts it might take hours in your lvl zone to remove all the karma if you by any chance went on a killing spree and somehow happened to PK half the sausans twelve times in a row. 

 

 

 

Before any of 'gtfo back to ur l2' happens, I will say that I love BDO and out of many mmos I have played I like this one the most. I grew up with l2 and it was a great game, but now it is dated and apart from a few mechanics, I do not find it interesting. This was one of those mechanics that I like in l2.

Constructive opinions are more than welcome.

Edited by PoohTheSir
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Posted

what, are you saying the wizzard is killing players whos not in lvl45?

That's right folks!

 

Killing random mobs in the world that someone else wanted to kill is Griefing, but taking away xp and undo hours of someones work is not.

Every single time i get killed in pvp it is because other people are trying to bully me out of a spot i was at first, or just entirely at random while running through an area to get somewhere else and suddenly get jumped by 3 people and told to "leave or die". ----- those guys, and ----- anyone suggesting i should be punished harshly for this dickish behavior.

Right now there is some highly geared Wizard or whatever deliberately running around the Olvia channels and PKing new players, over and over. Already making it impossible for these players to grind, but no, they should also lose xp now? Good way to kill off any influx of new players, and we know BDO needs those new players.

what, are you saying the wizzard is killing players whos not in lvl45?

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