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PayToWin in this game is not the same as others games.

159 posts in this topic

Posted

Clearly in BDO you can pay for in game advantage. It is actually a fairly significant advantage. People try and obfuscate this by saying 'but the free player can grind more' or if they are more skillful  or have better gear they can mitigate it but, assuming two players with similar commitment and skill the one that has paid will actually 'win'. If you are examining a variable you must hold other variables constant or it is a meaningless comparison.

You cannot do that, you cannot create a narrative to suite your argument that would lead to no where. I am not trying to be difficult here its just the truth of the matter... cause then someone could counter your argument no assume they both bought a costume what difference does it make?

 

Truth of the matter is no one has the same commitment, some players will have the buff advantage and play less then whoever you're comparing with, some will play more and have the advantage as well. Some will play less and dont have the buff advantage, some will pay more and not have the buff. At the end of the day it all will cancel itself out and commitment will be the primary deciding factor of who gets there first as always. 

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Posted

In other news:

 

A new type of psychiatric disorder; "P2W-phrenia".Subjects with this disorder have a history of prolonged exposure to the MMO gaming genre, hallmarks of this disorder include : Anxiety, paranoid delusions and emotional lability, with a few select features of Avoidant personality disorder.

Subjects are obsessed with daily MMO gaming stressors, and feelings of inadequacy, which manifest in the form of a fictional perceived tormentor or delusions of conspiracy, commonly referred to as "Pay to win".

Better explanation than your half ass attempt:

 

 

 

 

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Posted

Don't forget the ghillie suit and the fact that you're invisible in the grass. Ignore the fact that you have to go prone and move like a turtle to use it effectively, that totally doesn't count.

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Posted

sorry nobody is 75 and people dont even dream of 100 right now. by the time any even sees 100 in the next 3 years the soft cap will be raised with in 5 levels i think at pretty much all times so again i doubt you will ever see this

 

I'm actually asking what will happen.  I know how levels work in MMOs with a level cap but not sure what they mean in this game past 50.

And I always think in long terms when I compare things.  Most people think what the difference will be in a week or so, I am asking what a 25% bonus will mean after years of playing.

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Posted

the only thing i see is people stuck on level over all but thats just not how it works gear then skill then level and skill points are amazing but skill points are obtained mostly through combat exp which is not what the buff gives it gives character xp which is another ball game all im trying to point out is you guys are looking at it wrong. you can be level 53 with +5 gear and i could 50 with +15 and i would shit on you. you can be 53 with +15 gear and me 50 with +15 gear and if im a decent player and you are a decent player i can still beat you character level is not the main defining factor in this game. however if you get stuck in that mentality you wont make it far or long in BDO 

 

Just buy the -----ing costume if you enjoy the game enough.

Even if the prices are high, you will probably get a stroke if you don't get one. Health comes first man.

rockypunched.jpeg

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Posted

So if someone made a few lvls more than you, it means s/he wins more over you? If you have better gear and play better you will still ----- their asses. That's why is irrelevant. That's why is not P2W, but you give the definition of P2W analyzing 1 criteria, instead of the big picture to actually make a point.

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Posted

levels equate to power.  No level cap means a player who payswill always be higher in the power struggle.  I think you can get a combined permanent 25% experience bonus through cash shop items.

Now, because there is no level cap, a person who buys these permant boosts will level 25% faster.

If two players each spend 2000 hours leveling, the cash shop player will get an 500 hours of bonus experience or be 25% more powerful based on comparable levels.

Unlike a game that has a level cap, in which there is a max level of power all players can reach, the game without a level cap is only limited be who has the most experience.

But that doesn't come cheap, specially with the current cash shop prices. This is the only way to make the game somewhat fair for everyone. People who can't no-life the game will have the opportunity to play with these boosts and catch up with those who play more.   

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Posted (edited)

So if someone made a few lvls more than you, it means s/he wins more over you? If you have better gear and play better you will still ----- their asses. That's why is irrelevant. That's why is not P2W, but you give the definition of P2W analyzing 1 criteria, instead of the big picture to actually make a point.

And what if that person has gear equivalent to you.  But instead of a few levels, while you are level 50 the are level 62.5 because they have a 25% bonus due to cash shop gear and pets?

I actually don't know how levels really work in this game beyond 50 or how they boost your stats.

Edited by illgot

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Posted

I'm actually asking what will happen.  I know how levels work in MMOs with a level cap but not sure what they mean in this game past 50.

And I always think in long terms when I compare things.  Most people think what the difference will be in a week or so, I am asking what a 25% bonus will mean after years of playing.

well i cant tell you what exactly would happen as i dont think it ever could happen because the they will continue to raise the soft cap meaning you will level faster and catch them but sure, If they were to stop updating the game and never raised the soft cap and 4-5 years down the road some were to hit 100 he you prolly shit on anything and everything he came into contact with its hard to really say tho. for the most part you will only ever be 5-6 levels behind the higher level toon has a slight advantage but one miss step and you could really punish him you just have to learn to spot the right time to strike 

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Posted (edited)

And what if that person has gear equivalent to you.  But instead of a few levels, while you are level 50 the are level 62.5 because they have a 25% bonus due to cash shop gear and pets?

I actually don't know how levels really work in this game beyond 50 or how they boost your stats.

If you want to compete on lv 50 with a lvl 62, then you might as well try to compete with lv 20 against lv 50. Then we might as well complain about the concept of a mmo, there is a line of exaggerations here. You might as well complain is not fair you start the game 4 months than release and cry you have to catch up with people that play since release.(lvl but also gear++ etc) But if one is 57 and one is 62, there are still elements like how good as player or gear you have that influences the competition. If you count exaggerated lvl differences..well, won't repeat myself.

The point of the op post must be regarded between people that started lvling in the same time or the post is really zero to begin with. But the op viewed superficially ignoring other elements.

Edited by Lilitrix

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Posted (edited)

To OP: -shrug- In a game with no level cap, how do you win?

Certainly not by gaining levels as you can never reach a winning post.

So your whole argument rather comes tumbling down in a pile of poo.

Edited by Keth

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Posted

Wow, people never stop to amaze me with all these complain everyday on forum, no matter how small it is.

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Posted

stuff

 

Your first, and biggest mistake, is saying 'normal players' are those who get shit for free. THATS the problem in the first place. if all those cheapskates bought ONE costume, just ONE, then said 'advantage' would not be an advantage anymore - everyone would be on the same level with their 10% increase in exp. The problem is, people are too cheap and expect to get everything for free. There is a limit to your obnoxious entitlement, that is that you'll complain with a minor exp gain that EVERYONE would get if they just bought ONE costume. There are no pots in the cash shop, only in the MS which EVERYONE has access too. Just pay for your shit and then you won't be at a 10% exp disadvantage. Don't want to pay for it? Then thats your choice, but those who spend money deserve one over those who freeload. And saying that a 1 off payment of $30 for the game entitles you to everything is the shittiest excuse there is. NO MMO RUNS ON $30 FROM A PERSON, EVER! So gtfo and bring a real argument if you're gona be a freeloader, pay for your shit. 

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Posted (edited)

If you want to compete on lv 50 with a lvl 62, then you might as well try to compete with lv 20 against lv 50. Then we might as well complain about the concept of a mmo, there is a line of exaggerations here. You might as well complain is not fair you start the game 4 months than release and cry you have to catch up with people that play since release.(lvl but also gear++ etc) But if one is 57 and one is 62, there are still elements like how good as player or gear you have that influences the competition. If you count exaggerated lvl differences..well, won't repeat myself.

The point of the op post must be regarded between people that started lvling in the same time or the post is really zero to begin with. But the op viewed superficially ignoring other elements.

Pay to win means paying money to get an advantage in power over other players.

Paying for temporary experience boosts in a game with a level cap is not the same as paying for a permanent experience boost/s in a game without level caps.

A level cap found in a traditional MMO means that there is a clear cut end to when the gain for power stops.

Without a level cap that end does not exist and so the gain for power never stops.

This means that over the course of 24 months, the person with the paid buffs will be ahead of the other person by 6 months or 25%.

Edited by illgot

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Posted

Pay to win means paying money to get an advantage in power over other players.

Paying for temporary experience boosts in a game with a level cap is not the same as paying for a permanent experience boost/s in a game without level caps.

A level cap found in a traditional MMO means that there is a clear cut end to when the power difference ends.  Without a level cap that end does not exist.

You missed my whole point.

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Posted (edited)

I don't care much about it one way or the other, but I find it amusing that people who want a level playing field are being called "entitled", in a game that we all paid for.

Edited by Vod

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Posted

and what happens when both have comparable gear but one guy is level 100 due to the 25% bonus and the other is only level 75?

Just for accuracy's sake it does quite work like that. Someone would reach a level 100 due to 25% xp bonus while someone would be still at 75 only if leveling was linear. In this case especially after hitting the soft cap its very exponential. Unfortunately we dont have exact numbers so I will give a fictitious example. 

 

Lets say 2 there are 2 players they both start at level 1 but one has 25% xp bonus. for simplicity reason lets say it takes 100xp to get from 1-2 and that doubles per level. 

so you need 100,200,400,800,1600 etc..

lets say mobs give you 20xp each.

so to get to level 2 player 1 who has the buff needs to kill 4 and players 2 needs to kill 5 

lets say it takes 10 seconds to kill a mob. 

so for player 1 to reach level 10 they need to kill 4096 mobs and that will take nearly  11hrs

in the meantime player 2 without the buff got 4096 kills too in 11 hrs but s/he needs  5120 kills to earn enough xp for lvl 10

so where does 4096 kills get him/her? level 7? nope at 2560 kills they reached level 9 so they're actually 50% into lvl 9.

the diff gets even smaller as more and more xp is needed for the next level.

so rest assured, player 2 will not be lvl 75 when player 1 is 100, s/he will be well into lvl 99.

 

a lot of people think this is a lot worst then it really is.

 

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Posted

Pay to win means paying money to get an advantage in power over other players.

Paying for temporary experience boosts in a game with a level cap is not the same as paying for a permanent experience boost/s in a game without level caps.

A level cap found in a traditional MMO means that there is a clear cut end to when the power difference ends.  Without a level cap that end does not exist.

Pots are endless, a costume is a one off payment. One is an bottomless pit where individuals an throw money into it, the other just means you have to pay for your shit once.

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Posted

Hahaha, this same picture also posted in Age of Wushu when I talk about P2W as well. Really nostalgic.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 9_9

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Posted

I read many posts about what people considered to be as PayToWin and I think people some people have very narrow view of it. Some people mentioned "As long as it is not effected in battle, then it is not PayToWin". I can tell you that you are WRONG.

Age of Wushu, a Chinese based sandbox type game where you can PvP anywhere, anytime and with many activities that is similar to this game, but with Eastern theme.

Why am I mentioning this game? Because it is the same reasons I argue in that game for the first 2 years about what is PayToWin in that game and many people keep defend it to no end. After the first year, many kind of realize it and after the second year, many finally realize what I said.

What is considered to be PayToWin in that game? PAY TO PROGRESS.

Why is this considered PayToWin you may ask? Unlike traditional MMO where you spend like a 3 to 10 days or so and get to max level and then finally on your path to get end games gears. Age of Wushu like Black Desert Online has NO LEVEL CAP. Rather, in Age of Wushu, they have school internal level where you get first internal level, then wait a set period of time for game publisher to release second internal level up to currently sixth internal skill level in the latest update.

So why is it PayToWIn if players who paid real money get to level faster? Because of NO LEVEL CAP, therefore LEVEL = POWER.

 

Consider this, a game with NO LEVEL CAP, whoever get to higher level first will get new skills, more stats, and (better equipment?). They will have advantage in PvP and since most of things they paid for doesn't effect them directly in battle, but allow them to be stronger faster, therefore the support they got to get there is in of a way PayToWin.

You may argue others can get there eventually right? That's the problem in of itself. It is a never ending of racing, where paid players will get there ahead, then normal players will chase after. However, the problem is for example a level take like 1000 hours for normal players would require only 750 hours for paid players. Then next level will be the same and next and next. Paid players will always be ahead of normal players if both of them play the same amount of time and spent the same amount of effort. Therefore paid players will always have advantage in term of stats and skills compared to normal players.

 

Many of you may argue, XP boosted and such also exist in others games, so it is not a big deal. WRONG.

Like I said again and again, this game has NO LEVEL CAP. In other games with level cap, XP boosted only affect to the cap level and that's it. Others will have time to catch up and then everything will become balance in term of level (this post doesn't argue about end game equipment) However, it is not the same in this game where there is an always a chase between normal players trying to catch up to paid players.

 

With all that said, I also realize many things in this game is not as bad as Age of Wushu where Snail (game company) allow players to inject money into faster level internal, skills and such. Where you pay money for premium to offline leveling, get far better skills and such

 

However, the concept is still the same, what is not PayToWin in other games will be different in this game. Remember, NO LEVEL CAP will change what the definition of what is PayToWin and what is not. The -10% death penalty in sense also a PAY TO PROGRESS as well.

 

 

Pay to progress faster only becomes pay 2 win if the non paying version is insanly harder than the paying one. In bdo this is not the case. Every pay to progres thing in the cash shop is also fairly priced in the loyality shop, and it can be obtained in game to a certain extend. Black Desert is not pay 2 win, it does nto have the same issue as Age of Wushu

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Posted

You missed my whole point.

and you are only thinking in terms of days, less if you are comparing a level 20 to a level 50, since you can apparently reach level 50 in less than 20 hours.

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Posted

and you are only thinking in terms of days, less if you are comparing a level 20 to a level 50, since you can apparently reach level 50 in less than 20 hours.

Again, that was not my point.

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Posted

Just for accuracy's sake it does quite work like that. Someone would reach a level 100 due to 25% xp bonus while someone would be still at 75 only if leveling was linear. In this case especially after hitting the soft cap its very exponential. Unfortunately we dont have exact numbers so I will give a fictitious example. 

 

Lets say 2 there are 2 players they both start at level 1 but one has 25% xp bonus. for simplicity reason lets say it takes 100xp to get from 1-2 and that doubles per level. 

so you need 100,200,400,800,1600 etc..

lets say mobs give you 20xp each.

so to get to level 2 player 1 who has the buff needs to kill 4 and players 2 needs to kill 5 

lets say it takes 10 seconds to kill a mob. 

so for player 1 to reach level 10 they need to kill 4096 mobs and that will take nearly  11hrs

in the meantime player 2 without the buff got 4096 kills too in 11 hrs but s/he needs  5120 kills to earn enough xp for lvl 10

so where does 4096 kills get him/her? level 7? nope at 2560 kills they reached level 9 so they're actually 50% into lvl 9.

the diff gets even smaller as more and more xp is needed for the next level.

so rest assured, player 2 will not be lvl 75 when player 1 is 100, s/he will be well into lvl 99.

 

a lot of people think this is a lot worst then it really is.

 

That's a really good point.  If the curve is high enough, at a certain point the difference could only be a level or two.

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Posted

I think we're focusing on the wrong thing here to be honest. You get the 10% bonus regardless of the costume you buy.... pets are a different story so lets put them a side for a bit, will get to them later. So seems to me that people who dont want not even a 10% XP buff on them simply intend to never buy one and naturally thats not a message thats going to work and ultimately not in players best interest in my opinion either. 

 

What I mean to say is it would be more productive, in everyone's best interest and also more likely to get Daum to change it if we find a a common ground how everyone would be happy to buy a costume now and then rather then asking Daum to remove incentives to buy. Things like Currently costumes are too expensive. 

Getting back to pets, pets have a much worst problem then costumes do, to get the 15% buff from them it requires buying a ton of them and there are no guarantees when you're going to get your buff. So there I would say the issue is the current systems pushes people away because they figure they'd run out of budget before they achieve their goal so why bother?

 

Ultimately Daum want to sell stuff, making things less valuable by removing stuff clearly a lot of people care about is not going to help so its unlikely they're open to it. Making something more attractive for us to buy on the other hand? Thats another story. 

 

I also said its in our best interest that the cash shop be successful.. think about it people, why do some MMOs go actually P2W? I am not talking 10% XP buff here, I am talking actual tangible advantages such as impossible to enhance a weapon to max level without spending money o etc.. does that happen because their cash shop is super successful? nope it happens because as it is the cash shop is just not generating enough so they introduce things they know will get more people to buy. So once again a middle ground is in everyone's best interest. 

 

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Posted

I think we're focusing on the wrong thing here to be honest. You get the 10% bonus regardless of the costume you buy.... pets are a different story so lets put them a side for a bit, will get to them later. So seems to me that people who dont want not even a 10% XP buff on them simply intend to never buy one and naturally thats not a message thats going to work and ultimately not in players best interest in my opinion either. 

 

What I mean to say is it would be more productive, in everyone's best interest and also more likely to get Daum to change it if we find a a common ground how everyone would be happy to buy a costume now and then rather then asking Daum to remove incentives to buy. Things like Currently costumes are too expensive. 

Getting back to pets, pets have a much worst problem then costumes do, to get the 15% buff from them it requires buying a ton of them and there are no guarantees when you're going to get your buff. So there I would say the issue is the current systems pushes people away because they figure they'd run out of budget before they achieve their goal so why bother?

 

Ultimately Daum want to sell stuff, making things less valuable by removing stuff clearly a lot of people care about is not going to help so its unlikely they're open to it. Making something more attractive for us to buy on the other hand? Thats another story. 

 

I also said its in our best interest that the cash shop be successful.. think about it people, why do some MMOs go actually P2W? I am not talking 10% XP buff here, I am talking actual tangible advantages such as impossible to enhance a weapon to max level without spending money o etc.. does that happen because their cash shop is super successful? nope it happens because as it is the cash shop is just not generating enough so they introduce things they know will get more people to buy. So once again a middle ground is in everyone's best interest. 

 

I'm against the experience buffs (or any bonuses on cosmetics) in a game without a hard level cap, but if I get into BDO my first goal will be reaching the 25% experience buff.  I have the conqueror set so that's 10% right there.  I'll dump a few hundred in the cash shop, get the right pets, then a few other items that will help in leveling and making money in game.

But only if I enjoy the game.  Right now I am wrestling with myself and trying to balance whether I want to invest that amount of time and money into a company I really don't trust.

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