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poll Enchantement level


Max level of enchantement on items   324 votes

  1. 1. Should the max level of enchantment be +15 or not?

    • Yes
      181
    • No
      143

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

359 posts in this topic

Posted

Me and many other old players of BDO have been thinking of one thing lately. The huge difference that gear makes between players.

We all, or at least anyone that actually got informed about this game before buying it, know that this game is very gear based and that the difference of the item`s stats after +15 increases a lot which result in players with +15 items not being able to kill players with +16 items, or in players with +16 items not being able to kill players with +17 items and so on.

That's kind of broken, don't you think? I mean, items are not balanced at all after +15...

We also know that the pve aspect of the game is not the most challenging one, and most players end up playing solo on a mmorpg because bdo does not really require players to group up for anything. I am talking about bad AI, weak and very slow monsters and so on. And very strong gear doesn't help at all in making the pve more challenging, on the contrary, it worsens it.

Now what does this have to do with the title of the topic you ask, well, one problem of this whole balance thing seems to be items after +15.


 

Wouldn't this problem get patched up by making the max enchantment level +15?

I myself think that it would. Think about it:

- with weaker gear, players will have to party up or be very skilled (and many of you wish for a skill based game, don't you?) out in the open world when killing monsters or bosses and so on. All of a sudden, the monster that you were able to one shot kill with your +17 sword is able to kill you... quite challenging, yes? (Please keep in mind that an update to the AI won't be made by daum europe, as Oli i think said. If the AI will be improved, it will be only because PA decided so themselves. - translated: it won't ever happen).

- items under +15 have no balance problem in pvp, as many pvpers will be able to tell you. Before more than +15 enchant level on items to be added on KR, no one complained about gear balance.

Also +15 being the max enchantment level would make pvp more skill based too. How? Most players will get +15 items after 1 or 2 months of playing, the only difference gear wise will be the gear build that you chose for your class and the tier of the item:green, blue, yellow, orange(to be added with new regions xD). And since most player will have +15 gear, they will have to improve their tactics in pvp if they want to win. Not to mention, that new players won't have to grind 6 months to catch up to the other players to be able to experience the main selling point of the game, the pvp; he will be able to catch up in 1 month or so, then pvp all day long over challenging bosses.

 

In my opinion this would be an easy fix, they would only have to NOT add more than +15, and it will be easy, since at start more than +15 won't be available anyway.

 

What do you guys think? Now i know that this is an mmo, but do you really think that gear should matter more than skill in a skill based game, in an action orientated combat mmorpg?

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Would absolutely love if this were possible, but then people would point out that they want "progression". I put it in quotes because I don't consider RNG progression, but that's another topic for another time. If they were to implement your idea Chun-Chun, I think a cool modification to it would be to cap out the effects in PvP to +15 gear but allow +16 and higher gear to affect PvE, that way those who want this kind of progression can still have it.

Just my thoughts anyway.

Edited by Kinto
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Posted

I think it would be a great idea. I see it in the same light as Kinto does, honestly, what with the capped effects in PVP. I'm not too experienced with PVP yet, but it's already obvious that the skill really is becoming a secondary factor at best, which is frustrating to say the least. I think that the amount of time new players would have to spend to stand even the most minor chance against older players would be a major turn off to anyone totally new to the game that isn't a 110% hardcore and dedicated gamer. I worry that BDO is going to turn into one of those games that struggle to gain new players after the first few months of its release.

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Posted (edited)

Your idea is fine for me, but I would prefer a system in which +16 to +20 enchantment levels are left in game, though with diminished returns, i.e. the advantage you get from enchanting your gear past +15 level will get progressively smaller.

This means you would still be able to have gear progression, while fixing the current problem of this extended (and I agree with you, quite broken) gap between enchantment levels.  This would also allow for a game that shifts its focus on a more engaging PvP experience overall, based mostly on skill, while still rewarding people who work hard into upgrading their gear with a slight (but not game-changing) advantage.

I think this matter was the focus of a lot of discussions in the recent pasts both on the official forums and on BDReddit. Many gear-related questions were asked to the developers in the latest Q&A, but since we got no real reply about this issue, I completely agree the community has to reach some common agreement about how would be better to address it, so that the developers will have a clear benchmark to make the best possible changes to solve the problem (hopefully) in time for the next Beta test.

Edited by Iriel
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Posted (edited)

What i tryed to do was to find the easiest fix that fixes more problems at all with close to no changes at all.

I am aware that many things can be done, but the problem is that they will mose likely not be done. So having a backup simple solution - in which they basically have to do nothing ( a compromise solution between devs and players so to say) that still does the job, with higher chances to get in, is a + :P.

Why am I saying that other more complete solutions won't get in game? Because looking at the speed with which Daum EU takes decisions about important changes proves me so. For example flagging, karma, potions, etc. 

My initial idea was the one posted by @Iriel, and it is the one i'd agree most with, but i have my doubts that a change like this would come any time soon. 

@Kinto's idea is really good too, but that is even more difficult to implement, and it won't fix the "non-challenging pve" issue that the game has. 

It really dissapoints me that no member of the team has given any feedback or opinion on this matter even if it was reported so many time by so many players. No answer at all, and this is one of the biggest 5 issues of the game. @PM_Belsazar 

At this point one could say that daum doesn't even consider this to be an issue.

 

Glad to see awesome feedback from you guys :P

Edited by Chun-Chun
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Posted (edited)

I think capping it at +15 is a good idea and frankly I am not concerned about the "progression" complaint because imbalanced gear will kill a game far more quickly and permanently than a lack of progression will. Besides, people wanting that type of PvE progression are not the majority here - not even amongst the PvE community. I think PvE players coming to BDO are coming here for other things, but not for a gear treadmill they can find in TERA.

We've already seen the effect the current enchantment system has in KR and if Daum Europe wants to see what will happen here they need to look no further than TERA. Previously the enchant cap was +12 in TERA and PvP was lively, fun, and competitive. Then they added +15 gear, which was much harder to get and had a power difference that was even less than the curve in BDO. But it killed PVP in that game in a matter of months. It fell hard and fast. Black Desert cannot afford to start out with a curve like we have now - few will stick around for that sort of imbalance.

 

Edit: Also can we remove your guild tag from this post? It's irrelevant.

Edited by Leiloni
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Posted

I voted yes. 

Though a reasonable progression system might be the better option. +16-20 scales up way too much. Usually, the last few points give the least bonusses - they should only give you 'the edge' - nothing more. 

 

- Jeasy

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Posted

Agreed that they should remove +16 to +20 or at least make it a linear progression 

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Posted

I disagree, not because of balance reasons but because everyone and their mother will have +15, might as well remove enchantment at keep gear at base. I want to see someone with a +20 and go GODDAMN THAT IS A TASTY +20! Is +17 hard to get? GOOD! Don't try to limit others because you can't get your gear past 15.

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Posted

Fixing this issue will also help A LOT the whole esports thing that Daum EU is trying to set up too. 

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Posted (edited)

While I like the idea of capping at +15 for strictly PvP balance purposes, I think either capping it at 18 (obtainable with good effort) or reallllllllly scaling back the damage after +15 would be great alternatives to satisfy the hardcore PvEers while keeping the needed PvP balance.

Example:

  • +1 to +15 is 4 damage increase per level (Liverto)
  • +16 to +18 could be a 2 damage increase per level (using the current system)
    OR +16 to +20 be a 1-1.5 damage increase per level (using the current system)

This would give the people that spend the time an advantage, but not an overwhelming advantage that it is now. Using the same example, here is the current system...

Currently:

  • +1 to +15 is 4 damage increase per level (Liverto)
  • +16 to +20 is 8 damage increase per level
Edited by VipeR
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Posted

While I like the idea of capping at +15 for strictly PvP balance purposes, I think either capping it at 18 (obtainable with good effort) or reallllllllly scaling back the damage after +15 would be great alternatives to satisfy the hardcore PvEers while keeping the needed PvP balance.

Example:

  • +1 to +15 is 6 damage increase per level (Liverto)
  • +16 to +18 could be a 3 damage increase per level (using the current system)
    OR +16 to +20 be a 2 damage increase per level (using the current system)

This would give the people that spend the time an advantage, but not an overwhelming advantage that it is now. Using the same example, here is the current system...

Currently:

  • +1 to +15 is 6 damage increase per level (Liverto)
  • +16 to +20 is 8 damage increase per level

Exactly. We need to spam something like this in a new PM_Diary. He seems to answer/adress the questions being asked there.

- Jeasy

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Posted

Also on the topic of OP gear ruining PvP, aside from TERA I think ArcheAge is also a very good example of how bad it can be.

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Posted

Someone should make a comment which adresses this topic on a constructive level. I invite you to try something like this @VipeR. Than we can copy & paste in the next diary of Balsazar to make ourselves heard. 

- Jeasy

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Posted

When this was discussed in the past, it's been brought up by other people that simply eliminating +16-20 would cause some issues with the higher end mobs. It would be a super fast fix if the only consideration was PvP, but since the game is designed with up to +20 in mind, values for mobs in the higher areas would need to be adjusted severely across the board, and it would be an ongoing problem as PA balances against a +20 world, and DAUM has to keep fixing everything for a +15 world for NA/EU. You could just make +15 as strong as current +20, which would fix the difficulty of the strongest mobs, but also make the game pretty faceroll easy as getting +15 isn't too hard.

I personally don't believe there's much of a "quick fix" for BDO's myriad problems, including the gear issue, but clearly the insanely steep power curve is definitely something that needs to be addressed one way or another. We can suggest all the possible fixes we want, but the most important thing is that we clearly express that we want PvP to be skill based and that the gear problem is completely unacceptable (as it runs completely counter to that idea).

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Posted

When this was discussed in the past, it's been brought up by other people that simply eliminating +16-20 would cause some issues with the higher end mobs. It would be a super fast fix if the only consideration was PvP, but since the game is designed with up to +20 in mind, values for mobs in the higher areas would need to be adjusted severely across the board, and it would be an ongoing problem as PA balances against a +20 world, and DAUM has to keep fixing everything for a +15 world for NA/EU. You could just make +15 as strong as current +20, which would fix the difficulty of the strongest mobs, but also make the game pretty faceroll easy as getting +15 isn't too hard.

I personally don't believe there's much of a "quick fix" for BDO's myriad problems, including the gear issue, but clearly the insanely steep power curve is definitely something that needs to be addressed one way or another. We can suggest all the possible fixes we want, but the most important thing is that we clearly express that we want PvP to be skill based and that the gear problem is completely unacceptable (as it runs completely counter to that idea).

They could hand out a +3 Ogre ring upon reaching lvl60 LOL. Just sayin ;)

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Posted (edited)

When this was discussed in the past, it's been brought up by other people that simply eliminating +16-20 would cause some issues with the higher end mobs. It would be a super fast fix if the only consideration was PvP, but since the game is designed with up to +20 in mind, values for mobs in the higher areas would need to be adjusted severely across the board, and it would be an ongoing problem as PA balances against a +20 world, and DAUM has to keep fixing everything for a +15 world for NA/EU. You could just make +15 as strong as current +20, which would fix the difficulty of the strongest mobs, but also make the game pretty faceroll easy as getting +15 isn't too hard.

I personally don't believe there's much of a "quick fix" for BDO's myriad problems, including the gear issue, but clearly the insanely steep power curve is definitely something that needs to be addressed one way or another. We can suggest all the possible fixes we want, but the most important thing is that we clearly express that we want PvP to be skill based and that the gear problem is completely unacceptable (as it runs completely counter to that idea).

One thing I suggested in another of these threads is to limit enchants by character level. So adjust the gear curve so +15 is the new +20 and make any other necessary adjustments along the way so PVP is still balanced. But in terms of PvE content, limit how high a player can enchant based on their gear level so the mobs aren't too faceroll easy and still are as challenging as intended.

Or they could do what other games do and make stats work differently in PvE and PvP but I imagine that would be harder to implement.

Edited by Leiloni

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Posted

This topic is a very important, but also a sore-spot for a lot old Korean veterans, as well as a predicament that will affect the nature of the new populace joining the game. While it's good to discuss what changes can be implemented, make sure that you don't suggest complete overhauls of a system, because then it puts the subject into unrealistic idea's. While I fully support the idea of changing how gearing system works, asking to remove the +16 through +20 is too large of a task that it's too large of a system mechanic to change without impacting the rest of the world. Making small increments from +16 to +20 is also a good idea, but those minimal differences won't really encourage people to want to enchant, but this is a secondary problem to the *MAIN* problem. I will explain:

----------------------

Person A has +15 gear and weapons, Person B has +10 gear and weapons;

~ When Person A fights Person B, Person A win's by a landslide.

Person B works hard and gets +15 gear and weapons;

~ When Person A fights Person B, Person ?? Wins based off SKILL

INTRODUCING LUCK-

 

Person A  is enchanting beyond +15; he gets lucky and gets to +16.

Person B is enchanting beyond +15; he gets unlucky and fails, which keeps him at 15

 

They both try again…

 

Person A is enchanting past +16; he fails and LOSES an enchant level reverting back to +15

Person B is enchanting past +15; he succeeds to +16, tries again, and succeeds to +17

 

They both try again…

 

Person A is enchanting past +15; he succeeds to +16, tries again, and fails back to +15

Person B is enchanting past +17, he succeeds to +18..

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now when Person A fights person B, due to his luck of failing and LOSING his previous successes multiple times, is at an extreme disadvantage; as shown in the video's this huge gap in levels is very critical.

 

Now where does luck come into play here? Obviously with Player B whom had 3 successful enchants, and didn’t have to suffer the crushing defeat of probability in which he would lose his successes.

 

Will Player A ever catch up to Player B? As it is now in the Korean version.. No. Someone will always have more luck than another and always be ahead of gear, not due to any influence they can manipulate or encourage.

 

Gear imbalance is a huge problem ongoing in Black Desert.

 

My suggestion:

 

Remove the penalty of ***LOSING*** your enchant levels while enchanting past +15, giving equality to all players without losing their success.

 

 

The real issue here is everyone can get to +15, like everyone has stated its not hard. Why? Why is not hard? Because you don't lose previous successes solely off a random number generator that deems you unworthy of enchants no matter how long you've grinded, worked, saved, or progressed because you roll the dice and hope it lands on a 7 and nothing else. By removing the penalty of losing enchants after +15, you don't LOSE the progression you've GAINED. This means you're hard work will not be in vain. You will be able to enhance your gear to higher ends without feeling like you have no power to influence your enchanting past +16. With time you will in the end based on playtime eventually get to max while not destroying the end-game of PvE and changing mechanics to no ends.

 

***+15 is equality*** because everyone has equal opportunities to get there and not lose progression, +20 is the opposite, solely off luck, we remove penalty of losing enchants and now ***+20 is equality***

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Posted

-snip- 

Worse case scenario, I truly hope your idea gets implemented. I'm sure that there will be people against this though as they will say, "But then everyone will be +20!" and proceed to want upgrades to go to +30 and above.

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Posted

I think capping it at +15 is a good idea and frankly I am not concerned about the "progression" complaint because imbalanced gear will kill a game far more quickly and permanently than a lack of progression will. Besides, people wanting that type of PvE progression are not the majority here - not even amongst the PvE community. I think PvE players coming to BDO are coming here for other things, but not for a gear treadmill they can find in TERA.

We've already seen the effect the current enchantment system has in KR and if Daum Europe wants to see what will happen here they need to look no further than TERA. Previously the enchant cap was +12 in TERA and PvP was lively, fun, and competitive. Then they added +15 gear, which was much harder to get and had a power difference that was even less than the curve in BDO. But it killed PVP in that game in a matter of months. It fell hard and fast. Black Desert cannot afford to start out with a curve like we have now - few will stick around for that sort of imbalance.

 

Edit: Also can we remove your guild tag from this post? It's irrelevant.

Ah so this is where all the people that actually like Black Desert Hangout <3 I voted yes. I like that lady's idea of the enchanting. Very sound idea indeed

+1 for an intelligent thread \O/

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Posted

Ah so this is where all the people that actually like Black Desert Hangout <3 I voted yes. I like that lady's idea of the enchanting. Very sound idea indeed

+1 for an intelligent thread \O/

Haha yes, don't go to Massively unless you're a super casual PvE/RP fan who hates PvP and enjoys biased reporting.

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Posted (edited)

if you think it doesn't take skill to pvp in this game you are sorely, sorely mistaken. This is an MMO, you get rewarded for progression. Capping it at something so easy to get as +15 is bad for the game and far too casual for a MMO that has tried to reimage the required input of old style MMOs.

 

 

And on RU I kill people with better gear than me all the time, not that anyone will believe me but it most certainly is possible to take out someone with only 1 level of gear on you. Harder than equal gear yes, but doable.

Edited by Huntler
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Posted

Thank you for the poll Chun-Chun. Would be nice to hear something from the people voting no, instead of voting and not presenting arguments. Although if it is anything like these two on top here ^, ... maybe it is for the better.

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Posted

I do not see a problem with raising the enchantment level like they do, but the going backwards past 15 is one thing I think needs to be addresses. Maybe make the % lower then 20% and each time you raise it IE like when 15 was cap and now 20 is the cap, increase the % on the last tier of max level or keep a static number past 15%. example give each a 5% chance then have us complete a few quest to increase the chance of enchantment up to 10-20% depending on quest completed. Giving us a buff stack for a limited amount of time to try to enchant one item. 

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Posted (edited)

Thank you for the poll Chun-Chun. Would be nice to hear something from the people voting no, instead of voting and not presenting arguments. Although if it is anything like these two on top here ^, ... maybe it is for the better.

Could you elaborate on the issue of my post? Not really sure why you have a problem with someone having a differing opinion... Am I not allowed to refute someone who likely has never even played the game claiming the pvp takes no skill and is only gear?

 

 

If I need to go into more detail on why I voted no, reason being it takes someone who is reasonably putting effort into the game maybe a month without P2W to get close to 15+ (I'm estimating here because I don't expect your average player playing as much as someone who is hardcore). Games that you cap out so early die.... and die quickly

Edited by Huntler

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