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Let's push to Balance the game towards PvP

30 posts in this topic

Posted

Hey Fam,

 

My goal is to make this game improve as a PvP game.  I would like us as a community to sort of think about and push towards making this game what we want: a non-carebear, sandbox,  PvP oriented game.

 

Here are some basic ideas that are not difficult to implement that we should think about pushing for when CTB1 and 2 are out:

 

  1. Potion spamming is horrible in a PvP game. There should be a set number of potions you can active and if you have more than that you can't use them for 20min after you set those as your primaries, or something clever. Maybe only potions that heal slowly over time.

 

  1. Needs to focus on PvP,  and we still want to party with other people, but  that needs to be the focus, it needs to be encouraged (triangular trade, "kill 5 other players today to receive...", less penalties on pks, more reward depending on who you kill).

 

  1. If the grind is real at certain levels, maybe allow one or two soul-bound items (items that cannot be dropped) and no XP loss (just some kind of infamy/prestige, rank points?, Or coin). The goal is not to make PvP a huge, but not to make it insignificant… 

 

  1. You can only fight others in your bracket (bracket being an arbitrary number of levels above or below someone else). Differences in gear at higher levels higher weapons should be minimized.

 

  1. A ranking system based on killing other players. This may be limited to GvG battles, but ideally have it matter everywhere.

 

  1. No instances very limited safe zones. Perhaps getting highly penalized for misbehaving in some areas, but safe zones feel unrealistic. 

 

  1. PvP needs as early as possible (level 1).

 

Other topics that need to have an eye kept on them: Trade, Leveling, Cash shop (depending on results), PvE (can be worked on lastly), GvG, and let's not forget that breeding and other sandbox elements are important.

 

I believe once we have a good base, and the developers understand what we want, they will be able to adjust accordingly, but a little push can't hurt. 

 

Thanks

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Posted

1. making potion cd longer is rip lategame because it's gear based.

2. the game is about GvG.

3. what would it be good for? would it be a big change? 

4. that's hard to do. it's like starting from scratch.

5. there already is.

6.i agree.

7.i have 2 words :P  potion battle.... pvp at 30+ is good, you have some skills at your disposal, starting pvp at lv 1 is utterly pointless. there's no challenge in it.

 

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Posted

Just gonna drop this here as it is appropriate

F07C1BE6-3AC5-4EDE-9E92-80E6FD11B05A.JPG

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Posted

Add more PVE content. (Being done, but far too slowly)

:) 

I mean I love PVP main reason I bought this game, but some PVE content too would be nice. I mean level 55+ wise.

 

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Posted (edited)

Add more PVE content. (Being done, but far too slowly)

:) 

I mean I love PVP main reason I bought this game, but some PVE content too would be nice. I mean level 55+ wise.

 

You get grinding.......be grateful! 

E169D5A1-648D-41F0-B5C1-3991E5294D1F.JPG

Edited by Jether

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Posted

1. making potion cd longer is rip lategame because it's gear based.

2. the game is about GvG.

3. what would it be good for? would it be a big change? 

4. that's hard to do. it's like starting from scratch.

5. there already is.

6.i agree.

7.i have 2 words :P  potion battle.... pvp at 30+ is good, you have some skills at your disposal, starting pvp at lv 1 is utterly pointless. there's no challenge in it.

 

1. I meant so that there would be a limit on the number of potions you use in a certain period of time. Maybe I don't quite understand what you mean.

2. Is GvG going to be something that is always going on (I haven't really read on that)? Do you have any examples of GvG games that focus on GvG and are successful (in your opinion)?

3. I wouldn't want big changes. It would be good for minor carebearing. I'd hate to lose my +20 weapon.

4. Fair enough!

5. Well then... In my head I was thinking like some sort of renowned/infamous system that would make factions fight each other just due to being good or evil, or like if you are defending shipments you can gain some 'good' points if you are successful (maybe this belongs under 2). This is like lowest priority, I'd just like worldwide interaction with what people are doing.

6.

7. To me this would orient the feel of the game pretty well. I don't have game examples at my disposal, but it sounds fun. The leveling is so fast that it doesn't matter too much, I suppose. If we can't do #4, I am not sure how I would feel about this.

 

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Posted

A 50/50 balance would attract more player of both pve and pvp making everyone happy, if its to pvp oriented, you will loose pve players that dont mind doing pvp, so less pvp in the end....

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Posted

A 50/50 balance would attract more player of both pve and pvp making everyone happy, if its to pvp oriented, you will loose pve players that dont mind doing pvp, so less pvp in the end....

I don't really think I am saying anything against PvE, you can have PvE on top of a good PvP game, so I don't care to discuss.

I also think they should focus on a good PvP niche first, it doesn't look like we will have either a good pvp or good pve game if they focus on 50/50. I could be wrong.

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Posted

I don't really think I am saying anything against PvE, you can have PvE on top of a good PvP game, so I don't care to discuss.

I also think they should focus on a good PvP niche first, it doesn't look like we will have either a good pvp or good pve game if they focus on 50/50. I could be wrong.

From what i could read, pvp is already very good and even to good, and dev are working on adding a bit more pve on beta 1, maybe it will do it, next week will tell

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Posted

I don't really think I am saying anything against PvE, you can have PvE on top of a good PvP game, so I don't care to discuss.

I also think they should focus on a good PvP niche first, it doesn't look like we will have either a good pvp or good pve game if they focus on 50/50. I could be wrong.

'don't develop pve first, develop the pvp niche' is speaking out against the development of an early-game pve niche, though. and saying a 50/50 split would hurt both--and then saying pve should be the backburner--that is very definitely speaking against pve. if they develop one area that much more than another this early, it sets the stage for the entire player base as the game pushes into launch. if they focus on pushing out pvp, the game will be passed over by largely pve players, including those who don't mind doing pvp occasionally, including those who do the farming that balances the market for players who only like to pvp. a sandbox game should be well-rounded. that's what makes the nature of the sandbox appealing, because it lets the individual customize their experience within it. narrowing the field of play down, especially to something as competitive and frequently frustrating as small-scale pvp, is a huge turnoff for a big chunk of people.

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Posted (edited)

1. Why do you think it's horrible in a PvP game? 
2. Aren't PvE players necessary in a game environment to convert mobs into drops for the economy? Isn't that why all biospheres have a large number of herbivores relative to carnivores?
3. I like this one. I believe on Runescape, you used to be able to keep 3 items. It would be nice to select which items you'd want to keep. I do not, however, hope that there is an option to permanently bind items. 
4. What about gear being shared to alts? This would only be a good idea in the beginning of the server. And good luck convincing Daum to change gear upgrades to diminishing returns.
5. There should be no rewards for this, or players are just going to kill alts or their own friends.
6. I thought Valencia's jail system addressed this?
7. What would be the point of that?

Edit: I removed an analogy from my post, but for Maevynn's sake I'll put it back.

>Have you ever met an aquarium enthusiast? If you haven't, here's what they'd say:

Every good aquarium has a balance of species. It has plants, to convert hard light into organic material and resources for the rest of the tank. It has invertebrates, which survive on very little food compared to the fish yet explore every nook and cranny. It has social fish, which swim in groups, and loner fish sometimes too. And it has predatory fish - not many of them, but just enough to "complete" the tank. Because of the varied population of the tank, these predatory fish don't viciously attack - they just annoy, but not often or enough to bother the other fish.

A tank full of predatory fish - and only those fish - is a bad idea. There won't be any plants to convert light into resources, there won't be invertebrates exploring, and there will be no social fish for the predatory fish to bully - meaning they will end up attacking each other. Eventually, most will die, and no matter what the aquarium owner does - adding chemicals to the water, getting a better filter, replacing the dead fish with new ones - a tank of predatory fish only is doomed.

A happy tank is a balanced tank. Please take that into consideration when asking an MMORPG to focus entirely on PvP.

Edited by Absolute
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Posted

Exactly what Circus said.

I came from a game with a major focus on PvP and little focus on PvE, and all of the PvE/RP/Crafting/"Lore buff"/Trader players are gone and all that exists is PvP -- which is dying out for other reasons including the fact that the game is so empty.

And part of this was also because PvP players were essentially given full reign over the population, and getting killed by others was a constant.  People who didn't PvP didn't have the skills/builds/equipment for PvP, and thus were constantly were killed by the PvPers.  Everything was tried from "always travel with a group!" to "let's hire some player guards!"  truth is, doesn't work because it's a game, not real life.  People don't want to dedicate all of their playtime to patrolling the same unchanging streets/roads/forests over-and-over just to uphold the idea of a nonviolent walk.  It gets old, they stop defending (if they even can) and everyone who doesn't want to PvP constantly gets killed for so much as stepping outside the "Guarded" area. And I kid you not, players would just camp the guarded area waiting for players to come out to kill.  As an (mainly) RPer/PvEr, I really genuinely tried to just ignore it, but it honestly felt awful, there was nothing in it for me, and was more frustration for what it was worth.  It was impossible to RP the way I wanted to (IE not being killed constantly for stepping outside of the cities).  Not to mention you dropped all of your items/equipment on death... yikes.  A PvP-centered sandbox quickly becomes a "PvP-only with small pepperings of everything else" sandbox.  If it scares off too much of the non-PvP population due to clear playstyle favoritism, then the developers start only focusing on the PvP because that's all players are doing any more and you end up with something the game was never intended to be.

This is nothing personal at all, but every time I see a suggestion saying "No safezones", I immediately clench my teeth because of my past experiences.  Are they unrealistic?  Sure.  Do they serve a purpose?  Yes.  It can be done in a sandbox, I'm sure, but it would require months and months of testing, thought, and iterations.  And a whole lot of luck that they just so happened to do it exactly the right way.

Currently, from what I've experienced through lower levels in the Russian server (yes, I'm aware that I can't PvP, but I have yet to actually see much of it), as well as what I've read on the game -- I honestly don't consider BDO a "PvP-centered game", it's really more of a major part, alongside many other major parts that makes up BDO -- which is a good thing for both crowds.  We have to make sacrifices to coexist with one another in the same game world and make it a thriving ecosystem, or as Absolute put it "A Happy Tank".

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Posted

1. Why do you think it's horrible in a PvP game? 
2. Aren't PvE players necessary in a game environment to convert mobs into drops for the economy? Isn't that why all biospheres have a large number of herbivores relative to carnivores?
3. I like this one. I believe on Runescape, you used to be able to keep 3 items. It would be nice to select which items you'd want to keep. I do not, however, hope that there is an option to permanently bind items. 
4. What about gear being shared to alts? This would only be a good idea in the beginning of the server. And good luck convincing Daum to change gear upgrades to diminishing returns.
5. There should be no rewards for this, or players are just going to kill alts or their own friends.
6. I thought Valencia's jail system addressed this?
7. What would be the point of that?

 

 

 

 

Something that is very important that may change my thoughts on all this is how the GvG system plays out. Maybe that is going to be enough to create natural tension and give us something to work towards.

 

As Maevynn points out players lvl 50 killing all 30s constantly can be a problem, but if you put an incentive for other players to kill those players (like a Wanted status on them) it could balance things out without making the game easy and boring. This is basically what I think is most important. Balancing the PvP and changing it every other season/patch/quarterly should be done.  Again, I agree the other elements are important (my personal favorites being the crafting/breeding elements) but without a PvP built throughout the game, not battle arena crap at the end, I have a hard time seeing a long term success for the game.

 

  1. Because you want to maximize skill usage and not potion spamming, I'd say quality of the potion (like a potion crafted by a master potion crafter) should be more important than just having a lot of potions.

 

  1. Personally,  I would love to be a dedicated armor salesperson in a game like this, and breed the best animals..  However, I kind of take it as a given that people don't want the best gear just to beat the next monster, they want it to have an advantage vs other players. To add to your argument sandbox elements are needed to keep people interested, make us want to make the best boat, but it would be most fun to farm while being in danger of getting killed. I think they can add more things later pve things later, but a good foundation of sandbox and pvp are crucial.

 

TLDR: For all this to work, there has to be a solid, tweakable state of PvP throughout the game.

 

  1.  Yeah, whatever they do so we can keep our +20 sword.
  2. For the first part you could have gear locked for certain levels? You should be able to beat someone 2-3 levels ahead of you on skill. Someone pointed out this would be a major change, so no good.
  1. So if you die you could lose some points (to stop the friend thing).  Maybe they should reward for different people killed? Nothing extravagant even just a kill count would make people pay attention to others and create some tension.
  1. I am worried about the future of instances I guess.
  1. Ambience! I hate how safe and easy most RPGs are.

I agree with your analogy. I think that can pertain to a closed balanced loop of PvP balancing as well though. 

 

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Posted

1. Wouldn't having player-dependent quality of pots just become another way to outgear someone?
2. I agree that rewards should come from PvP, but would prefer if those rewards were not "tangible" in the "valuable" sense of the word. i.e, I don't think giving a special item or privilege to someone with a high KD ratio is good. I'd rather just the rewards be inherent - satisfaction of combat, guild rivalries, PvE utility.

5. Maybe just a karma system so that if you kill a red, you become less red yourself? This could prove interesting for players wanting to "redeem" themselves, and prevent fights between two PvP factions from becoming too costly to either.
6. Why do you think instances are necessary?
7. Agreed, but it shouldn't be overdone. Impetus of PvP should be inherent, not artificially created.

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Posted

1. Wouldn't having player-dependent quality of pots just become another way to outgear someone?
2. I agree that rewards should come from PvP, but would prefer if those rewards were not "tangible" in the "valuable" sense of the word. i.e, I don't think giving a special item or privilege to someone with a high KD ratio is good. I'd rather just the rewards be inherent - satisfaction of combat, guild rivalries, PvE utility.

5. Maybe just a karma system so that if you kill a red, you become less red yourself? This could prove interesting for players wanting to "redeem" themselves, and prevent fights between two PvP factions from becoming too costly to either.
6. Why do you think instances are necessary?
7. Agreed, but it shouldn't be overdone. Impetus of PvP should be inherent, not artificially created.

1. Yeah... That would add a fun potion dynamic though, mainly stopping the spamming of potions is the intention. People seem to have different opinions on them, so I feel like I am not understanding why that would be something to allow. 

2. The rewards don't need to be tangible like you said. Just a count displaying your kills or even a different border showing you are the devil or that you do a lot of good by getting rid of bad players.

5. I really like something along that idea. 

6. No, I meant worried they'd jump in the game. 

7. I agree, and I think the best ways to do this are by limiting resources or creating status structures. Just something to think about. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Not everyone is a fan of giant battle-style PvP. Using the most popular MMO of all time for some structured-examples. Random world PvP got boring within an hour and battlegrounds were the biggest chore in the world for me, but I could do 2v2 and 3v3 arena with friends for 12 hours straight and still be rearing to go a 13th hour. Now given, WoW clearly cared more about PvE then PvP and their terrible balance showed such, I'll still state there's going to be those that enjoy smaller, more compact, competitive styled PvP too.

And excuse this if I misread, but I only bring it up because it seemed like you were against that form of PvP.

Edited by MikeHeel

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Posted

I have to agree with Maevynn here. This game does not seem to be centered around PvP at all. It is centered around the concept of a sandbox, which means you a) set yourself a goal and b) think about how you can reach this very goal. It's all about decisions you make. Of course PvP can be the decision you make, but it doesn't have to be. As a developer, how do you guarantee, that other decision are on equal ground and are able to thrieve as well? By trying to create a fair system, where one part of the game does not destroy the other. That includes some kind of mechanism which prevents mindless player ganking. You can see these efforts for example in level barriers, safe zones, the karma system, and dedicated PvP areas.

You don't just pull these things down and hope for the best. This game does not exist since yesterday. There is a good reason for changes made.

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Posted

I think the only way for me to adequately sum up my position on this thread is

vnqp0.thumb.jpg.9209c989f0ac8c89e989446c

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Posted

I think the only way for me to adequately sum up my position on this thread is

vnqp0.thumb.jpg.9209c989f0ac8c89e989446c

Eh, MMO's in general tend to struggle. Trying to act like PvP is the reason they do is a massive lol. WoW is typically the standard for what games try to do, because it got the most subs for the longest period of any MMO yet 90% of the games that attempt to copy WoW or follow it's pattern have typically failed. WoW was only what it was, because it was the right game at the right time but then it became something of a fear of change.

People have a tendency to stay with what hold's familiar to them, hence why WoW lasted for as long as it had despite having a very ehhhh storyline, very repetitive PvE and basically throwing in the towel on PvP after Wrath. But because of that, MMO's have been struggling to find their footing, because everyone is waiting on the 'next WoW' to pop up and blow their minds and in doing so, too many dev's try to remake WoW. My point in all of this is, let Black Desert BE Black Desert, if the Dev's wanted this to be more of a PvP game? Then that is their vision and we as the players should respect that instead of trying to force another game into a WoW-esque PvE feel.

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Posted (edited)

My point is that this is not exactly my first trip to the rodeo, and I see this in figuratively every single MMO title that comes out or gets a western release.  There is always an extremely vocal PVP minority who touts that "This is the one!" and latches onto it like it is going to be the savior of their niche style of play.  I don't have an issue with some PVP in games, but trying to embrace the idea that it's going to be the main point of the game at this point, after SO MANY failures, is just no longer grounded in reality.

This group of people is also invariably the first group to jump ship the minute some new shining beacon comes around for them to latch onto.

PVP in MMOs is functionally dead.  It has been for probably the better part of a decade now.  The fact people keep trying to hook up the paddles and shock the corpse back to life is not going to change this.  Far too many people who used to be interested in PVP in MMOs have long since moved to the MOBA genre, which does a far better job of capturing their desired playstyle.  It's not even that PVP in MMOs is necessarily bad, MOBAs just do what a large segment of that crowd wanted, and do it better.

I'm not advocating for PVP to be removed, or not be part of the game, or anything like that.  GvG, Node Wars, etc all sound at least moderately entertaining to me because it is "PVP with a Purpose."  But I have become COMPLETELY jaded to the sort of threads that advocate making pointless and random murder a core part of the game, or advocate for such sillyness as lootable PVP in gear-driven games where it takes months to build stuff up.

As for Devs wanting PVP to be the focus of the game?  I just flipped through the "Game" section of the website again, and while I admittedly could have missed it don't see even  a single mention of PVP.  Games that intend to be focused on PVP tend to aggressively flaunt that fact.  I would be quite shocked if the Dev's intent is for the game to be PVP focused and don't brag about it whatsoever.

So yet again, I have to stick to my opinion that a small but vocal minority of players are, once again, trying to build this up in their minds as the PVP game it is just not going to end up being.  I don't really even post in these threads with any mindset of trying to change developers minds, more just as a somber voice pointing out the way things have become.

Edited by AtmaTheWanderer
Fixin' Typos

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Posted

My point is that this is not exactly my first trip to the rodeo, and I see this in figuratively every single MMO title that comes out or gets a western release.  There is always an extremely vocal PVP minority who touts that "This is the one!" and latches onto it like it is going to be the savior of their niche style of play.  I don't have an issue with some PVP in games, but trying to embrace the idea that it's going to be the main point of the game at this point, after SO MANY failures, is just no longer grounded in reality.

This group of people is also invariably the first group to jump ship the minute some new shining beacon comes around for them to latch onto.

PVP in MMOs is functionally dead.  It has been for probably the better part of a decade now.  The fact people keep trying to hook up the paddles and shock the corpse back to life is not going to change this.  Far too many people who used to be interested in PVP in MMOs have long since moved to the MOBA genre, which does a far better job of capturing their desired playstyle.  It's not even that PVP in MMOs is necessarily bad, MOBAs just do what a large segment of that crowd wanted, and do it better.

I'm not advocating for PVP to be removed, or not be part of the game, or anything like that.  GvG, Node Wars, etc all sound at least moderately entertaining to me because it is "PVP with a Purpose."  But I have become COMPLETELY jaded to the sort of threads that advocate making pointless and random murder a core part of the game, or advocate for such sillyness as lootable PVP in gear-driven games where it takes months to build stuff up.

As for Devs wanting PVP to be the focus of the game?  I just flipped through the "Game" section of the website again, and while I admittedly could have missed it don't see even  a single mention of PVP.  Games that intend to be focused on PVP tend to aggressively flaunt that fact.  I would be quite shocked if the Dev's intent is for the game to be PVP focused and don't brag about it whatsoever.

So yet again, I have to stick to my opinion that a small but vocal minority of players are, once again, trying to build this up in their minds as the PVP game it is just not going to end up being.  I don't really even post in these threads with any mindset of trying to change developers minds, more just as a somber voice pointing out the way things have become.

I've read tons of older articles and what not, they labeled the game as a sandbox PvP game back in the day. Go ahead and look up a bunch of older such things discussing it. They always had the vision of PvP for the game that started slowly changing as the casual Korean market hit in, with super streamlined/easy leveling and what not. Hence why you hardly see PvP at the forefront mentioned these days.

 

However, PVP in MMO's is far from dead, arenas in WoW still get spammed, GW2's most active feature is still PvP, Final Fantasy 14....Well you got me there. Their PvP is a tacked on mess. PvE is far easier for people to pick up, they don't have to feel competitive within it(unless they're in a serious raiding guild) so of course you see more casual players toward it, yet as you referenced MOBA markets, FPS markets, etc, all show a VERY strong market for player verse player action. This game is taking more of an action-oriented approach, it vastly differs then a good portion of MMO's with very reactive and positional combat, so the PvP can have a far different flavor then all the games mentioned prior.

 

I -do- 100% agree with however, the fact the game shouldn't just be spiteful, random ganking, for the so-called reasoning of LOLPVPGAME. I'm a roleplayer in these games first and foremost, I love the presence of the game, the lore, the story, the feel. And that will -absolutely- be ruined by constant ganking, constant people farming lower leveled/geared players. Though, I do think they've covered their bases in adding in the new areas in the(relatively) recent updates. By making the high level and high rewards area the major PvP zones, it'll give other players the whole rest of the game to explore, enjoy, and have fun with while the PvP'ers stay in the large zone that's meant for and catered to them.

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Posted

This game is already PVP turn based. What do you want more? Delete mobs?

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I've read tons of older articles and what not, they labeled the game as a sandbox PvP game back in the day. Go ahead and look up a bunch of older such things discussing it. They always had the vision of PvP for the game that started slowly changing as the casual Korean market hit in, with super streamlined/easy leveling and what not. Hence why you hardly see PvP at the forefront mentioned these days.

 

However, PVP in MMO's is far from dead, arenas in WoW still get spammed, GW2's most active feature is still PvP, Final Fantasy 14....Well you got me there. Their PvP is a tacked on mess. PvE is far easier for people to pick up, they don't have to feel competitive within it(unless they're in a serious raiding guild) so of course you see more casual players toward it, yet as you referenced MOBA markets, FPS markets, etc, all show a VERY strong market for player verse player action. This game is taking more of an action-oriented approach, it vastly differs then a good portion of MMO's with very reactive and positional combat, so the PvP can have a far different flavor then all the games mentioned prior.

Sure, but if that's the case can we really make the argument that it's a "PVP-centric" game if it isn't anymore in its home region?  What it started out as isn't really relevant to what it became, and I find it a little hard to believe that the NA/EU release is going to be any different.  If the developers realized that the market they attracted doesn't want it and made huge shifts in ideology to retain players (a very intelligent move on their part, I will add), I no longer think it is fair to call this a PVP-oriented game anymore.  The old adage "Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them" seems particularly relevant here.  

As for PVP, due to poor phrasing on my part your statements are accurate to what I said, but not as to what I MEANT within the context of this discussion.  WoW Arenas are not "PVP" in the sense that we are talking about and discussing here.  It is a 100% consensual activity that you choose to either engage in or completely ignore.  No real progression of your character is in any way contingent on you participating in it.  I played GW2 for many, many months.  I got several characters to max level, and not once did I ever participate in anything PVP-oriented, so I don't really think that the statement "is the main activity" is accurate, but perhaps it is a significant element of the game I was not forced to participate in either.  FFXIV is completely accurate - Square has pretty much eschewed PVP completely in their games, except as a bolt-on activity similar to WoW Arenas.

So, I will concede my statement that "PVP in MMOs is dead." is a bit overly broad, and instead offer the same argument but add the qualifier "Non-consensual" before PVP.  Bearing in mind, I'm not saying "it has to go" or "we need PVE only servers" or anything like that, but I also cannot see the merits in trying to force it down people's throats if they don't want it - that cannot end well.  People who want to PVP will, as has often been said, will find a reason to do it.  I want the game to succeed, and I do not believe in any capacity that attempting to balance a game around a cornerstone of non-consensual PVP can yield a commercially viable product in the US market.  

If it could, Dark Age of Camelot would still be running today,  Shadowbane would be a thing, Age of Conan would not have flopped, TERA would not have been forced into F2P, Aion would not have crashed and burned hard, Warhammer Online would not have lasted barely a year, and Pathfinder Online would not have been a complete joke that didn't even make it out of development before it crashed.  There has been only one, notable PVP-based sandbox game that has succeeded - EVE Online - and a not insignificant amount of that can be argued that it is partially due to it being the only Starship based MMO around.  I'd be willing to put down a $20 in Vegas that EVE is in trouble the moment Star Citizen launches... assuming, of course, that thing ever makes it out of Vaporware status.

 

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I think you need to add enough reasons to PvP, enough ways to make it fun and engaging so that people fight PvPers and for the most part leave the PvEers alone. Like it or not, this game does cater to PvEers all the way to 50. You can't do that and then just expect everyone to change to PvP and like it.

But PvE does not mean that PvP can not be good.

 

So I say what needs to happen is the PvP rewards need to be goal orientated. Territory control, resource control, seek and destroy. All stuff that keeps PvPers engaged and makes it interesting and dynamic, while making it more rewarding to engage in these systems than killing PvEers. If you stop the random ganking and griefing, there won't be loud calls for stopping PvP (There WILL be calls, there are ALWAYS calls, but if people aren't actually finding themselves getting killed all over, they won't get much momentum).

Plenty of games start out with more open PvP, then cut it back due to these sorts of calls.

 

PvP needs to encourage meaningful engagement for everyone involved. Killing someone PvEing is not automatically that sort of content. So make it fun, meaningful and rewarding to engage with PvPers. Keep it in the right places through rewarding it (I don't mean PvP zones).

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Sure, but if that's the case can we really make the argument that it's a "PVP-centric" game if it isn't anymore in its home region?  What it started out as isn't really relevant to what it became, and I find it a little hard to believe that the NA/EU release is going to be any different.  If the developers realized that the market they attracted doesn't want it and made huge shifts in ideology to retain players (a very intelligent move on their part, I will add), I no longer think it is fair to call this a PVP-oriented game anymore.  The old adage "Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them" seems particularly relevant here.  

As for PVP, due to poor phrasing on my part your statements are accurate to what I said, but not as to what I MEANT within the context of this discussion.  WoW Arenas are not "PVP" in the sense that we are talking about and discussing here.  It is a 100% consensual activity that you choose to either engage in or completely ignore.  No real progression of your character is in any way contingent on you participating in it.  I played GW2 for many, many months.  I got several characters to max level, and not once did I ever participate in anything PVP-oriented, so I don't really think that the statement "is the main activity" is accurate, but perhaps it is a significant element of the game I was not forced to participate in either.  FFXIV is completely accurate - Square has pretty much eschewed PVP completely in their games, except as a bolt-on activity similar to WoW Arenas.

So, I will concede my statement that "PVP in MMOs is dead." is a bit overly broad, and instead offer the same argument but add the qualifier "Non-consensual" before PVP.  Bearing in mind, I'm not saying "it has to go" or "we need PVE only servers" or anything like that, but I also cannot see the merits in trying to force it down people's throats if they don't want it - that cannot end well.  People who want to PVP will, as has often been said, will find a reason to do it.  I want the game to succeed, and I do not believe in any capacity that attempting to balance a game around a cornerstone of non-consensual PVP can yield a commercially viable product in the US market.  

If it could, Dark Age of Camelot would still be running today,  Shadowbane would be a thing, Age of Conan would not have flopped, TERA would not have been forced into F2P, Aion would not have crashed and burned hard, Warhammer Online would not have lasted barely a year, and Pathfinder Online would not have been a complete joke that didn't even make it out of development before it crashed.  There has been only one, notable PVP-based sandbox game that has succeeded - EVE Online - and a not insignificant amount of that can be argued that it is partially due to it being the only Starship based MMO around.  I'd be willing to put down a $20 in Vegas that EVE is in trouble the moment Star Citizen launches... assuming, of course, that thing ever makes it out of Vaporware status.

 

Ehh...That's actually one of the moves I respected the least about them. As a content creator you can tell when something seems...forced. The dev's at Pearl Abyss clearly had in mind a more hardcore themed PvP sandbox with a complete political structure in mind, that guilds and such could try and battle over points and feud, yada yada. That was their orginal vision and while yes, they did change it to make more profit...The PvE we've been given clearly shows while they're trying to make people happy, it's uninspired PvE at best. Though they've also clearly been trying to turn the game BACK into a PVP focus, in an update over the Summer, they released a large portion of map, the actual Black Desert portion. It's very resource heavy, has the best farming spots and all that, and they've reworked the karma system to be a LOT more forgiving while on this portion of the map. They even built a city that protects red karma players and attacks good players on sight instead of the vice versa. So you can clearly see they WANT this game to remain PvP-focused, just by how they're updating the game.

PvE will indeed most likely be added due to demand but they aren't just going to tack on PvP content and focus solely on PvE. Again. I -agreed- with you, random ganking and what not is pointless and tedious for all involved outside of the guy trying to stroke his epeen killing players that are clearly not as leveled/geared/committed. Hence the implementation of the best zone being extremely focused on PvP.

You seem to be listing off all these MMO's as if it's failures were all PvP oriented. LOTRO, SWTOR, DDO, Neverwinter, TESO, those were games that's selling points for most were PvE. PvE content. Dungeon-grinds, partying...Yet they all failed. It isn't because they were all horrible games, but as I stated about Warcraft earlier. The fear of chaaaaaaaaaange. You can point to PvP oriented fails and every single time I can point to a PvE oriented failure of an MMO all the same, that were forced into the F2P market or removed itself from a sub based structure very quickly. MMO's in -general- unless you were named Warcraft, generally failed.

GW2 was forced into the megaserver system because their servers had slowly started getting less and less populated, though GW2 was billing itself as moreso a PvP game orginally aswell, wanting to become -the- MLG MMO for PvP, their PvP just failed to impress and catch on still in the WoW eras, then MOBA's caught fire and GW2 never stood a chance after that. And their extremely lackluster dungeons supported that. GW1 had a much better storytelling and dungeon system then what we were given in GW2 sadly.

Final Fantasy 14 is a game that while yes, it's been successful and never been forced out of the subscription market, it also sells itself on it's name at times. I mean, the fact that until just recently you had two dungeons to grind over and over along with a pretty boring 4 boss raid told the story. I love Final Fantasy for it's storytelling but even then the content gets boring and repetitive after a few weeks of the expected same old grind patterns.

End of the day, MMO's in general need to try -new- things, experiment and figure things out for themselves, not try to become carbon copies of WoW. If an MMO wants to become PvP oriented? Then they should keep producing PvP oriented content as they see fit. It -is- their game.

Edited by MikeHeel
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