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31 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Thread is being reposted at the allowance of CM_Jouska after being locked due to off-topic conversation. Please make an effort to stay on-topic and ignore those who do not.

I will be posting a few key posts from the previous thread. 

 Original thread can be found here: http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/2577-reinstate-localized-markets-remove-price-fixing/&page=1

ORIGINAL OP:

I ask that DAUM and Pearl Abyss consider reinstating the localized markets and remove global auction and the fixed prices from Black Desert.

One of the major draws this game had for me was this concept of a market where I had to make an active effort to go out into the world and search for the best price, to bring my goods I gathered, crafted, or bought from another player and risk my skin and carriage against the threat of another player attacking as I ride across the region to make that extra 300 silver per sale in an economy driven entirely by supply and demand governed by the players. Travelling with a group of friends or hired mercenary players, slowly climbing my way to the top and purchasing bigger and better modes of transport. The connections made through trade, discussion and hiring of services. The healthy economics of commerce and supplying others with what they desire. The drive to push on through the risk of losing it all by the hand of another player. Being that player who risks his life and karma standing to steal a large haul from another. To have a real impact on the game world and how other players progress and play. In my mind this is the greatest part of Black Desert.

None of this can be done in the current state of Black Desert. Global auction completely eradicates the enjoyment of travelling to other areas to find a better deal, replacing it with an uninteresting system of arbitrary prices set by NPCs. There is no fun in participating in a system that should be built around the interaction between players if it isn't actually built upon it. 

I can only ask that DAUM and PA please consider bringing back the system that was featured in early stages of this game. I hold deep concern that this game will lose out on a fascinating aspect of itself as it has in Korea, Russia and Japan should the decision be made not to change this system.

Edited by Malkraz
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Posted by Tsinatsil:

 

Actually there could be some proper fixed price formulas that could work well. For one this kind of a system could work, allowing trading as a playstyle and at the same time fend off goldsellers:

  • First devs/publisher should ban bots/goldsellers regurlaly, maybe lower karma so you can kill obvious botters without large penalty etc. Do proper work limiting bots/goldsellers over limiting gameplay mechanics from players.

Then what I would suggest for trading:

  • Allow trading between guild members / friendlists, for example you could trade 1 on 1 with your guildies when you have been in the guild for 2 weeks or so. Now you could help out your friend while still making it hard to trade directly to gold sellers.

 

  • For the auction house I would like to see totally fixed prices go away. Only thing I would allow to be in somewhat fixed pricerange is endgame gear. So that goldsellers couldnt buy every piece of armor and stockpile em to raise their prices artificially thus boosting goldselling. For other materials it could be set a price ceiling, so that you cant list 100 silver trash item for 100M and goldseller would buy it from you. But on the other hand the ceiling should be somewhat high enough that you could make profit from stockpiling mats etc. For example normally mat goes 500 silver and you seek to sell it for 1000silver, the ceiling for listing could be 1500-2000silvers. That way you could still be trader and make profit and allow trading as a gameplay style. And on the other hand gold selling/buying would be harder. For example lets say if you would want to buy 100M silver and you trade it in mats through AH, you would still need 33M your own money + tax reductions (1:3 ratio for mat normal price to listing ceiling price). By actively manipulating normal price to max listing price ratio you could make it hard to buy gold, since you would have to buy whole AH out of materials to sell em them back to goldseller for max listing price, that would be quite a bit of a work. And on the other this system would allow making profit for players.

 

  • Remove golbal AH and introduce local AHs for each region. Lets say for example Valencia, Media, Calpheon had different AHs for each area. This could be an interesting mechanic. For example some material can only be found in Calpheon: you got two alternatives, sell the material in Calpheon for normal price or transport the material to Valencia where you could try to sell it for max listing price. This kind of system could make the world seem more active and alive. Also this would promote banditry/PK leading to GvG drama between trader, bandit and hero guilds.
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Posted by Zoma Caius:

It's annoying to see people complain about the game being casual and destined the fail, but heaven forfend they make any changes to the game like localized markets or actually having to do some effort to earn their money, that would slap you out of your comfort zone and add some challenge to the game, that's how you make a dynamic game, that is what makes a game unique every day you play it, the possibility of failure or success relies on your wit and ability to prepare for these scenarios, people have been asking for years about party play, Well, this'll certainly want you to party up.
Being mindful of your surroundings every step especially in the night-time kickstarts the game back life, because when there is no challenge it becomes stale as all hell. 
Killing the same mobs for hours, running a raid every week.. Yea sounds like great fun. 
Since the beginning of this game they wanted to have it punish you from the start, weather that affects your stats, night-time being dark(we have that now, baby steps) NPC's leaving their posts and returning to town. This all has been dumped down for the Korean player-base, because that's just not what koreans are into, it's no lie that they like to farm and more show it on themselves their ability to grind for hours and then show them their level, gear, or gold. This has proven to be a catastrophic move for the western market. 

Making the game so; that it will hand the player tools to create scenarios with, will extend it's life-time way longer then just adding raids and dungeons.
Luckily the Devs are already doing this with the new Valencia PK system, So expanding on the current system and vision of the developer is a worthwhile endeavour I feel. 

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Posted by Malkraz:

 

What if a system could be implemented wherein there is a fixed price range that adjusts based on the average of what players are selling the item for? This way, you can't just constantly list items at their lowest allowed price and make it impossible for people to undercut you, nor can you flood the market with severely underpriced goods nor would it be nearly as feasible to buy up all of a particular good from a given town's market and relist it at a higher price.

For example: First person lists Gold Ore at 1000g on the market. Other players can then list their gold ore for +/- 300g from 1000g (700g - 1300g). As more players list their ore lower than 1000g, the middle of the fixed price range lowers from 1000g to 800g. The original seller's ore still lists at 1000g, but any ore listed (or relisted by him) after the shift can only be listed at +/- 300g from 800g (500g - 1100g). This way, you can still undercut your competition and create a healthy environment that benefits the consumer without a feasible risk of crashing the market, and at the same time make it much more difficult for a given individual to have a stranglehold on that town's gold ore market purely by the fact that many other people list it at a price that disallows him from making significantly more from his listing. Assuming enough people are active in the market, an individual would have a difficult time even controlling a single town's market.

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Posted by Luciferia:

"Could someone link me an in-depth explanation of how trading works in BDO atm? Is it similiar to AA or is it different entirely?"

Totally different with the exception of some common elements. I won't go into super detail but here is the idea.

For one you can find trade goods when you fight mobs. These trade goods can't be sold to a vendor and only to the trade people in most towns. You use contribution points to link nodes together.  If you do not have nodes linked between the start and end point the goods are only worth 30%. If you link all the nodes you get the current trade price which varies typically from like 90% and up. 

Some nodes are cities, some are resource nodes that you can have workers harvest raw goods from. When you create your workers make trade packs they are marked with the origin they came from. The longer distance the trade, the more it is worth.

You don' t make your own trade packs in this game . You hire workers that function more like slaves (because you never pay them after you buy them and only need to feed them beer to keep them going). Workers can get many resources for you from resource nodes in the world that you have linked together. They can then turn them into trade packs that are stored in your warehouse.

You can have the game ship goods from warehouse in one city to a warehouse in another so you don't have to travel that distance with goods in a carriage. Then put them on your carriage and bring them to a trader.

You can also buy trade goods directly from trade people and transport them elsewhere. You need to grind levels of trade to trade better stuff. Initialy you can only trade cheap stuff and eventually you get access to more expensive and profitable trade goods. 

Here is a shorter 10 min video about it. I know there are some longer ones but I didn't bother viewing those myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSaXunpISUE

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Posted by Iriel:

"I've made a post about adjusting fixed prices on the 4th page I'd recommend you give a read. If it's absolutely necessary to the market I believe it's a system that would work well so long as the deviation is set properly"

Thanks for referring me to that post. I like the idea, and would like to propose a generalized system based on that.

Considering different people will list an item (eg. a Blackstone) at n different prices x1...xn, the pricing system could derive a price range for the item based on the mean (the current average ) and the deviation from the mean (standard deviation σ) of the current listed prices. This price range will allow price movements determined by players, while still keeping a (this time quite mobile) price range, based on the listed item and the different prices the players choose (i.e. based on the current distribution of these values). 

The model would thus be of a simple form like Price range =   ± r*σ, where r is a suitable and variable range coefficient that could allow for the following market behavior:

  • r is different for every region R (eg. Calpheon, Serendia), so it allows the players to list items in different price ranges in the different regional Auction Houses;
  • r can vary over time, allowing for different price ranges at different times of the day/month/business cycles;
  • could be possibly linked to a variable tax rate, most produced regional products, or reflect economic patterns like inflation or deflation of prices.

The interesting thing in this example would be that the variations in the market localization (r) will mix with the variation in prices induced by the players (described by the average x̄ and the deviation σ), allowing for a really dynamic market in which players have an active role. Of course this could just be a basis for the price range model, which could be expanded by other random factors or local events, like in a real economy.

TL;DR -

It would be nice to see a system like the one hinted to by the op and generalized a bit more formally in this suggestion.

This proposal would allow for really dynamic prices determined by the players, whose market behavior will determine the price range, and lively, diverse regional markets with their own fluctuations, due to regional events, characteristics, products, and inflation and deflation of prices like in a real economy.

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Posted

that's a long ass post...

I'll have to take my time to read it.

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Posted by Iriel:

"I've made a post about adjusting fixed prices on the 4th page I'd recommend you give a read. If it's absolutely necessary to the market I believe it's a system that would work well so long as the deviation is set properly"

Thanks for referring me to that post. I like the idea, and would like to propose a generalized system based on that.

Considering different people will list an item (eg. a Blackstone) at n different prices x1...xn, the pricing system could derive a price range for the item based on the mean (the current average ) and the deviation from the mean (standard deviation σ) of the current listed prices. This price range will allow price movements determined by players, while still keeping a (this time quite mobile) price range, based on the listed item and the different prices the players choose (i.e. based on the current distribution of these values). 

The model would thus be of a simple form like Price range =   ± r*σ, where r is a suitable and variable range coefficient that could allow for the following market behavior:

  • r is different for every region R (eg. Calpheon, Serendia), so it allows the players to list items in different price ranges in the different regional Auction Houses;
  • r can vary over time, allowing for different price ranges at different times of the day/month/business cycles;
  • could be possibly linked to a variable tax rate, most produced regional products, or reflect economic patterns like inflation or deflation of prices.

The interesting thing in this example would be that the variations in the market localization (r) will mix with the variation in prices induced by the players (described by the average x̄ and the deviation σ), allowing for a really dynamic market in which players have an active role. Of course this could just be a basis for the price range model, which could be expanded by other random factors or local events, like in a real economy.

TL;DR -

It would be nice to see a system like the one hinted to by the op and generalized a bit more formally in this suggestion.

This proposal would allow for really dynamic prices determined by the players, whose market behavior will determine the price range, and lively, diverse regional markets with their own fluctuations, due to regional events, characteristics, products, and inflation and deflation of prices like in a real economy.

I think everyone would love to have more dynamic and player driven economy, but at the same time they don't want to have RMT in the game.

Having said this, I the idea in the post I quoted has some merits. Specifically, the fact that r is different based for each region allows for players to make a profit by travelling around, while at the same time the price limiting based on σ, if done well, can almost completely exclude RMT. What I mean is that the price variation within the same region should not allow for a profit (i.e. the price range should be <=30% AH tax), to impair gold selling through AH, while in other regions the range could (but not necessarily will) fluctuate enough to allow for good profit. 

I need to think more about it because right now I don't have a lot of time, but at a quick skim it seems a feasible solution that allows more dynamic economy while limiting RMT. I'll comment again later when I can think it through better. For now, thank you for the input OP and @Iriel.

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I don't know how the auction houses currently work, but could could you make it that you can see things in other markets, but you still need to actually go there to pick up anything you buy there?

So it's only global for viewing and buying, but you can't just have the items sent to you, you have to go pick them up (on the character that bought them, so people don;'t just hop between characters to transfer things rapidly). I say this because if you're looking for something in particular, you want to know where it actually is, not spend hours running around trying to find it. That way you can retain local markets and local prices, but still find what you're looking for.

Alternatively, if that's still not localised enough, perhaps you can view what is being sold in other markets, but can't actually buy from them without going there. That way you still at least know where ot go to find the items you're looking for. Perhaps you can only see Auction houses you've been to (ie places you have "contacts".)

 

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Im all for localized markets. Takes players out from their comfort zone and actually head out in the world to discover different prizes etc. Maybe make ANOTHER poll? Yay!!! 😜

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I don't know how the auction houses currently work

Currently the Auction House is global with fixed pricing. This means that

A. You can view, sell, and purchase any item from any town from every board.

B. When selling, you have a small (I believe 30%) range in which you can price your item. This leads to a stale market with very little realistic competition since you cannot undercut past a certain point, and there are no fluctuations in value.

but could could you make it that you can see things in other markets, but you still need to actually go there to pick up anything you buy there?

 I believe viewing of listings from the world map is already implemented in the game, though since markets aren't localized you don't need to travel there.

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Agreed ! In a lot of  mmo many people love play with auction and trade.

 

On bdo.com : Take the first step toward becoming a wealthy merchant! Secure faster and safer transportation!

Let player make their world ! We have so much themepark with instance, addon, same gameplay, same feature ...

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This suggestion will work, as i've tried to argue myself before, as long as the devs make sure to control the supply of ingame items and keep an eye on the economy in general.

This system will not work without active involvement and monitoring with the devs, but it will be worth it.

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I agree. Bring back localized ah

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its easy: if they dont bring at least localized markets back (from all the good ideas this game had in the beginneng - nothing is left) me and a lot of people i know will not play. Most people here dont know yet what black desert was supposed to be and what it became. i dont think many people from KR and RU servers will actually continue playing in EU/NA if there arent A LOT of changes.

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I also am for the localized markets.  This worked well in BDO as there are no instant teleport systems in game.  If only playing on one character, you would as others mentioned need to travel the world to find out how things are going.  One town may sell it at this price, another town, may have it higher but no one else is selling it there at that price, so you then pay for the convenience of not having to travel to a cheaper area (kind of like the trade pack system and selling items crafted to further towns to get more money).  It also adds a bit more realism (a bit) as again since in this world there is no long distance teleporting, why/how would the market board be able to do so (I'm ignoring the warehouse feature for storing items in your house).

Of course this can be slightly bypassed by those with multiple characters (everyone get's 4 slots in NA/EU right off the bat, can buy more if you really need it) and you can just leave a character in another town to check prices far from the character you are currently maining if need be.

+1 for Localized Markets.

 

- Kat

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+1 for localized markets

Imo localized markets is  step to a better ingame economy.

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I don't think they should completely remove price fixing. They just need to loosen it up a bit. People shouldn't be able to sell a 50 silver potion for 10 million silver. It just becomes a way to transfer wealth (ie gold selling).

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Posted (edited)

The player driven market was something that drawn me into Black Desert. It's a facet I would like to learn with the activities in relation to take part in. Raiding a caravan is something I'd like to do. Crying to my cats after mine is raided, is something I wouldn't mind doing. This is all in good fun. 

The fact of the matter is, any developer makes a conscious choice when altering a certain section of the game. Localization teams bend rules and return game mechanics to familiar ways custom to each region. But, I'd like to ask the localization; Why do some things work for other regions and some don't?

More specifically
Why did the localization decide to play it safe?
To find an answer to which a public speaker from a business will never answer, we'll have to answer it ourselves.

Game developers and localization teams of most kinds, especially those working on MMO's, are all about delivering a new system with new gameplay that keeps player numbers high, while suggesting every choice is for the player satisfaction. These same people make the conscious choice to appease to a familiar formula in favor of metric; to lower the learning curve so the player can spend more time playing and less learning, to ultimately not-fail to an angry mob.

Again, these same people appease to the mass. They stick to numbers, and numbers mostly.
With that said, developers and localization teams in favor develop and work towards the metric and not the minority because a number is the largest spoken language in a business.

A playerbase is passed a term called "group think". In simple words, what the mass in its entirety things is fact, even when either morally or scientifically isn't fact. A playerbase as a whole revolves around a methodical trend that exceeds weaker trends trying to "break the mold". Why is that? It's evident because it's a social and economic difference in approach to a problem. We have different cultures in this world made up of a similar reason. One person born and raised through tradition is their culture. The same goes for region specific rules and content for video games, and in this case, Black Desert.

But how does this answer our question? How is this theory proven?
Well, it's just that. People are just people no matter where they're socially raised in, or what they culturally practice!

Let me give you an example. A Korean-american family is raised on American soil. They adopt the American way, lifestyle, mannerism and behavior. America is already an established dominance in mannerisms, expectations, social queue's, etc etc. Now, a Caucasian family has deep roots with the Japanese culture. They are born, raised, and always have lived in the country. They adopt their mannerisms, expectations and rules.

People are just people, and their suits (metaphorically) are tailored by the maker.
The public conforms to the culture.

So. Why do we as a region have such a high metric for these kinds of trade systems? (Open world market board).

We have such a high metric for this kind of system because, the Western Developers and Localization teams are building a culture or sticking to the one that has been established already. With this culture, they can cut corners, and play it safe while diverting energy towards something else. Somewhere the trend started, and it's a fall back when things look grim - every business has this sort of tactic, every military has this kind of protocol, every strategist has this way of thinking.

A final question to ask ourselves. Why hasn't any MMORPG of any kind been recognized more than they have been criticized, and earn a triple A title in over the last decade?

Chance. Opportunity is made with chance. Chance isn't a sin. Man was able to fly based on a chance, food consumption and culinary were built on taking a chance. History was made on chance.

A last question to our hosts.
Why not take a chance on us, by taking a chance on yourselves? Weighing only by gain through passed social experiments isn't how progression is made.

I don't want to play Tera, World of Warcraft, Blade and Soul, Destiny, Arch Age, Aion. I do not want to play Final Fantasy 11 or 14, nor do I want to spend my time on Runescape, Maple Story, Dragon's Nest, Fiesta, Guild Wars, Elder Scrolls, Rift or EvE.

 

I wan't to play Black Desert.

 

Edited by Keys
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Posted

They are already doing one thing with trade. Lets wait and see how that turns out before we ask to mess things up further!
Give people a chance to experience the game or the change. Play the game yourself also and see if it's really as bad as you assume.
Also read the rest of the threads before you go and ask for a change ontop of a change again.

 

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Posted (edited)

I've translate this post in french (cause this feature was fucking awesome), and submit a poll :

Local market :

Yes

No

 

Trade and fixed price :

Let player decide

Okay but fixed for endgame stuff and trade with guildmember/friendlist

As actual

 

Cariage :

Can full loot it

Loot 10/20/30% depending how bad is your karma

Let my pony love this world

 

you can see results here : http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/2996-résumétraduction-commerce/

Edited by sebz
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Posted

I don't think they should completely remove price fixing. They just need to loosen it up a bit. People shouldn't be able to sell a 50 silver potion for 10 million silver. It just becomes a way to transfer wealth (ie gold selling).

This is where the adjusting price range could potentially come into play.

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This is where the adjusting price range could potentially come into play.

Yeah I think that makes sense. This way they can prevent crazy stuff happening because of artificial factors(bots and gold sellers again). But allow for prices that evolve a bit based on player/server maturity, supply and demand.

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Posted

Localized markets are very important if this game is to realize much of its potential sandbox elements. The more characters have to move in the open world, and move GOODS through the open world, the more of a chance there is for encounters with other players, hostile or otherwise.

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I have gotten into CBT1, and unfortunately it appears the AH is still global and the prices are still heavily fixed.

Hopefully we will see more feedback from the playerbase after this beta.

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