• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Subscription for BDO

65 posts in this topic

Posted

The OP's title is very misleading, this is clearly a thread on multiboxing and NOT a subscription model. 

Please change thread title to fit discussion accordingly. 

Lol my apologies. #tangentdiscussions

Back on topic: even an optional p2p subscription model would be a bad idea. There's no way to implement it without giving subscribers an advantage over non-subscribers. Having an optional subscription model is for f2p games, not b2p.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

First, ESO didn't start the Buy to Play model. Guild Wars did it long ago, and I'm sure there was some before that. /rant

On topic:

If you are getting something at a discount, that means the devs are getting less money for you buying a thing. While this is good for you initially, it is bad for them - which is bad for you in the long run.

The subscription would have to be competitive with the cash shop, or it would have to start implementing p2w aspects to make it worthwhile. The latter should be avoided at all costs.

First, where did I say that ESO started the B2P model? All I said was I wasn't a fan of the ESO B2P model at first..but compared to this it's looking better. Reading FTW!

Secondly, this is the first time I have ever heard someone suggest that a sub would somehow encourage P2W in a cash shop..that's a new one. How about the cash shop itself is what encourages P2W? P2W is inextricably tied to to cash shops...*not* subs. The danger of P2W lies in the cash shop itself not subs. Yes, a sub might give a small discount but it's a reliable and steady stream of cash for Daum and compared to some who will play and never make a purchase at all this would be an improvement. Of course a sub will never equal those who spend unreasonable sums of money but it's not meant to. That's a small minority of people anyway and those people would still buy more stuff on top of a sub regardless so your point is invalid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

FYI basically every subscription game has a cash shop nowadays.

sub games that release cash shop are almost always in transition to F2P model. They never have cash shops in their release states, but several months/years later. But in any case, even if sub games had cash shops, my argument stands, they shouldn't have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

sub games that release cash shop are almost always in transition to F2P model. They never have cash shops in their release states, but several months/years later. But in any case, even if sub games had cash shops, my argument stands, they shouldn't have.

WoW has had a cash shop for years.
EVE has had a cash shop for years.
FFXII had a cash shop practically at relaunch
I can't even think of a sub game that doesn't have a cash shop

Your argument is really an opinion, which is yours to have but doesn't really hold any more weight than anyone else's opinion.

Edited by bakimono

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

WoW has had a cash shop for years.EVE has had a cash shop for years.
FFXII had a cash shop practically at relaunch
I can't even think of a sub game that doesn't have a cash shop

Your argument is really an opinion, which is yours to have but doesn't really hold any more weight than anyone else's opinion.

Dont know about EvE. WoW might have a cash shop for years by now, but it certainly did NOT have a cash shop for years too. FFXIV had a cash shop? Lineage 2 had cash shop? TERA was years without a cash shop until subs stopped and had to transition to F2P, same with AoC, etc. And yes, it is my opinion but also a fact that sub games do not need a cash shop to provide a high quality service.

I believe the only game I know with both sub and cash shop from release was SWTOR, and the cash shop items still could be bought with in game currency, so not really a "cash shop".

Edited by Tinaral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Dont know about EvE. WoW might have a cash shop for years by now, but it certainly did NOT have a cash shop for years too. FFXIV had a cash shop? Lineage 2 had cash shop? TERA was years without a cash shop until subs stopped and had to transition to F2P, same with AoC, etc. And yes, it is my opinion but also a fact that sub games do not need a cash shop to provide a high quality service.

I believe the only game I know with both sub and cash shop from release was SWTOR, and the cash shop items still could be bought with in game currency, so not really a "cash shop".

FFXIV has had a cash shop since day 1 of re-release as a realm reborn.
Tera had a cash shop well before being f2p; but I never commented on it because its f2p now (Tera was my main game for years and I was there for the NA betas)

It's irrelevant if they "went years without a cash shop" because I'm not talking about "then" I'm talking about >>NOW<<

There are practically no mmos that do not have a cash shop p2p, f2p or b2p. Trying to move the goalpost by citing games not having a cash shop when it wasn't standard practice is pretty irrelevant because it's standard practice now.

Edited by bakimono

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

FFXIV has had a cash shop since day 1 of re-release as a realm reborn.Tera had a cash shop well before being f2p; but I never commented on it because its f2p now (Tera was my main game for years and I was there for the NA betas)

It's irrelevant if they "went years without a cash shop" because I'm not talking about "then" I'm talking about >>NOW<<

There are practically no mmos that do not have a cash shop p2p, f2p or b2p. Trying to move the goalpost by citing games not having a cash shop when it wasn't standard practice is pretty irrelevant because it's standard practice now.

Irrelevant is stating "its standard practice" as if that added any value to your argument. Point is, it is widely demonstrated p2p model does not need a cash shop to sustain itself and give quality service. Do some games add cash shops because they see it as a way of making even more profit? Sure. Do they need this cash shop? Ofc not. Not yesterday, not today, not tomorrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Irrelevant is stating "its standard practice" as if that added any value to your argument. Point is, it is widely demonstrated p2p model does not need a cash shop to sustain itself and give quality service. Do some games add cash shops because they see it as a way of making even more profit? Sure. Do they need this cash shop? Ofc not. Not yesterday, not today, not tomorrow.

If it is truely "widely demonstrated p2p model does not need a cash shop to sustain itself and give quality service" then why do the overwhelming majority of p2p games HAVE a cash shop?

You are not qualified to say if they do or do not NEED a cash shop without having a look at their balance sheet and you have an interesting definition of "irrelevant" considering you're backing it up with baseless assertions. What doesn't add value to your argument is continually stating your opinion as if it is fact, because *you* don't think cash shops are appropriate they "aren't needed" but you're not basing this on any financial factors or real information.


You're attempting to apply metrics from the industry before it shifted as if those same standards apply, I would say considering how basically every p2p game has added a cash shop within the last few years in the face of diminishing profit margins to re-invigorate their businesses is a giant neon sign to the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

If it is truely "widely demonstrated p2p model does not need a cash shop to sustain itself and give quality service" then why do the overwhelming majority of p2p games HAVE a cash shop?
You are not qualified to say if they do or do not NEED a cash shop without having a look at their balance sheet and you have an interesting definition of "irrelevant" considering you're backing it up with baseless assertions. What doesn't add value to your argument is continually stating your opinion as if it is fact, because *you* don't think cash shops are appropriate they "aren't needed" but you're not basing this on any financial factors or real information.


You're attempting to apply metrics from the industry before it shifted as if those same standards apply, I would say considering how basically every p2p game has added a cash shop within the last few years in the face of diminishing profit margins to re-invigorate their businesses is a giant neon sign to the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.

Precisely the demonstration is that, before those "recent years" p2p MMOs did not have cash shops. And since in recent years mmos do not give a better service than in "past years", it is simply empirical evidence that cash shops are not needed. You are the one assuming cash shops are needed to sustain a p2p game. If your argument is simply "oh yes they do because they have cash shops", then that can simply be answered with " oh no they dont because they did not have cash shops before". It is your assumption that cash shops serves for something else than to milk players, and should be your burden to back this claim. I KNOW cash shops are not needed because I have played plenty of p2p games and cash shops were not missed, everything worked fine, until subs go down and obviously cash shops are added as part of the transition to f2p.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Precisely the demonstration is that, before those "recent years" p2p MMOs did not have cash shops. And since in recent years mmos do not give a better service than in "past years", it is simply empirical evidence that cash shops are not needed. You are the one assuming cash shops are needed to sustain a p2p game. If your argument is simply "oh yes they do because they have cash shops", then that can simply be answered with " oh no they dont because they did not have cash shops before". It is your assumption that cash shops serves for something else than to milk players, and should be your burden to back this claim. I KNOW cash shops are not needed because I have played plenty of p2p games and cash shops were not missed, everything worked fine, until subs go down and obviously cash shops are added as part of the transition to f2p.

You're completely ignoring economic change here. A few generations ago you could put yourself through college and work part time, now you can't even afford community college with part time work. That's the massive logical flaw with your entire argument; the market shifted and that old model is no longer as viable as it once was, which is exactly why businesses have changed to reflect that change; which is actually backed up by empirical evidence. You can see companies like Blizzard having their income from WoW slumping and quickly moving towards being a failure and cash shops evening out that decline.

It is not "oh they need them because they have them" it's actually "They were failing and had to change their dynamics to keep from failing and transitioning to explicitly f2p with a cash shop like the bulk of the new IP's and many older models have."

The onus to demonstrate a claim comes from the one making the claim, indeed, you have done nothing to back up your claim except cite the state of the market before it changed. I pointed out the market shifted, that model isn't as viable as it used to be which is why the people who actually do see the balance sheets have transitioned to adding cash shops, making it industry standard for the most part.

Let me ask you, in simple terms, if cash shops are truly not needed, then why has practically every p2p game transitioned to having a cash shop?

And please, don't come at me with anything as vapid as "to milk players" because it's intellectually dishonest if you actually look at the economic factors behind mmos that are already deflating rapidly as p2p. And I'm sure you can say they are in transition to f2p if you like, but what is that a clear indicator of? Seems pretty obvious that it is an indicator of p2p as it used to be is not nearly as viable as it once was.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Subs is finished. Only wow will keep doing it. Subscriptions is a bad idea for the futur of mmos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

You're completely ignoring economic change here. A few generations ago you could put yourself through college and work part time, now you can't even afford community college with part time work. That's the massive logical flaw with your entire argument; the market shifted and that old model is no longer as viable as it once was, which is exactly why businesses have changed to reflect that change; which is actually backed up by empirical evidence. You can see companies like Blizzard having their income from WoW slumping and quickly moving towards being a failure and cash shops evening out that decline.
It is not "oh they need them because they have them" it's actually "They were failing and had to change their dynamics to keep from failing and transitioning to explicitly f2p with a cash shop like the bulk of the new IP's and many older models have."

The onus to demonstrate a claim comes from the one making the claim, indeed, you have done nothing to back up your claim except cite the state of the market before it changed. I pointed out the market shifted, that model isn't as viable as it used to be which is why the people who actually do see the balance sheets have transitioned to adding cash shops, making it industry standard for the most part.

Let me ask you, in simple terms, if cash shops are truly not needed, then why has practically every p2p game transitioned to having a cash shop?

And please, don't come at me with anything as vapid as "to milk players" because it's intellectually dishonest if you actually look at the economic factors behind mmos that are already deflating rapidly as p2p. And I'm sure you can say they are in transition to f2p if you like, but what is that a clear indicator of? Seems pretty obvious that it is an indicator of p2p as it used to be is not nearly as viable as it once was.

 

 

Surely any P2P game that transitions to F2P is because it is having economic problems with it's former model. But how is that a demonstration that P2P doesn't work? To me, it is a demonstration of a game that failed to deliver interesting gameplay through the years (which, don't take me wrong, is obvious, everything becomes boring eventualy). My point was, that in a healthy P2P game (imagine our current BD with subs), cash shop is NOT needed to deliver a quality service (only needed to milk players). Income is enough! Of course, if for whatever reason subs start to drop, then it is only logical, and clever, to add a cash shop to balance income, and, in the end, transition to F2P entirely. I was never trying to discuss this...

Edited by Tinaral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Surely any P2P game that transitions to F2P is because it is having economic problems with it's former model. But how is that a demonstration that P2P doesn't work? To me, it is a demonstration of a game that failed to deliver interesting gameplay through the years (which, don't take me wrong, is obvious, everything becomes boring eventualy). My point was, that in a healthy P2P game (imagine our current BD with subs), cash shop is NOT needed to deliver a quality service (only needed to milk players). Income is enough! Of course, if for whatever reason subs start to drop, then it is only logical, and clever, to add a cash shop to balance income, and, in the end, transition to F2P entirely. I was never trying to discuss this...

The most sucessful p2p games on the market right now all have cash shops.

Final Fantasy, after relaunching, had a cash shop from word go.

You say that it's not needed, but even casual market research will show you that it's right there in front of your face no matter what you think about p2p with cash shops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

um...

Edited by userOnline

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0