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Economy and crafting is pretty messed up

198 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

As an example to make a potato crate it costs 10 potato and 1 black stone powder

When you're lucky to find potato for sale it costs 28 per potato so 280s for crate

Black stone powder is 1200s

So that's almost 1.5k silver to make the crate not factoring time costs and beer usage for workers if we throw in beer as well then at current rates it's at 1.3k silver

So that's 2.8k silver to make a pack that you can sell for anywhere from 900 to 1.3k silver

It's means no player will bother using this "content" in it's current as there's literally no point when you can just sell black stone power for the same price of the pack

 

When it comes to crafting tools if we go by durability vs silver costs, you can buy a basic 10 durability tool for 60 silver or 6 silver per durability

A 120 durability tool costs from 27k to 60k depending on the tool, even if we take the lowest end at 27k it works out at 225 silver per durability

Yes you get increased speed benefit from a higher tier tool, however all that speed means is you're going to burn through your energy quicker

So for fast burn of energy it costs 219 silver per tick more

As energy is a finite resource it works out being more beneficial to use the basic tool because it's not only cheaper, but due to the longer collection time it means you have less down time waiting for energy to be replenished.

At standard 20 second speed you'll get a new energy every 9 collection, compared to the steel set at 12 second collection it would take 15 collections to gain a new energy

There plenty other issues going on with the economy, like obscene tax rates, an really bad balance between supply and demand for numerous product (This is due to energy/time/cost/profits issues within the economy)

 

What can be the solution ?

For starters energy needs to go, this is not a facebook/browser game where you are time gated waiting for energy to recover for people who only want to do craft are forced to either AFK or do something they don't wish to do, this is negative as eventually these players will just quit out of frustration.

People have paid good money to play this game and there's absolutely no reason for energy to be in a paid for game, if we take for instance EvE Online, it has the most indepth economic system in any game, there is no energy and the system functions perfectly without any interference from artificial mechanics (next point)

The automatic price fixing from the game also needs a massive overhaul for some reason it's overvaluing some items and undervaluing others and seems to have very little connection to the actual supply vs demand.

 

However I do feel this post will fall on deaf ears as Daum seem to be very very silent at addressing anything players bring up

Edited by ArgleBargle
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Posted

Why would you sell a crafted anything in the game? Thats stupid, have you read the comments in this forum? Everything is self reliant hench you craft for yourself and yourself alone, otherwise youre stupid for putting an item in Market because you just wasted silver.

 

Word, we selfish to the point that the gam encourages you be selfish more. I love it, i hope it stays the same. Disable all forms of cooperation with other players, lets make this dark souls!!!!!

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Posted

I think a few things need to be addressed economy wise.  I know they don't read these forums so it's more just like this getting off my chest.

When I found out you could buy wagons off of the npc's, my whole crafting empire I was creating moved to Mexico.  I was really saddened.  Now all I do is sell raw mats and the combinations of them but nothing crafted as it's not worth it.

Here is what I suggest:

1- NPC's should only sell materials that are not harvestable or gatherable.  Never crafted.

2- When they change the price of items for the market place, when one item like bronze ingots go up in price, everything that requires bronze should go up as well.  

3- Mats should never be more then the crafted item.  If #2 was put in place then this would not happen.

4- I would normally say that mobs shouldn't drop items as well, but I understand that would have to restructure a lot of the game which would never happen.  But the other 3 above can happen without affecting the core gameplay that this game has.

 

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Posted (edited)

the game is braindead with 70% of its content and features

 

endlessly grinding mobs being the other 30%

Edited by Crazy Mike

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Posted

seriously, did u factor in that we have workers for daily chores or grunt work, in eve u have to do it yourself or buy of the market, perhaps u should take a step back and look at the overall system before trying to influence changes which solely benefit your train of thoughts...

prices are not reflecting what is real, give it some time it will normalised just like in the real world most upside and downside is the normal just that u don't see it doesn't mean it does not exist..

my 2 cents

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Posted

Playing the devil's advocate here as I'm still learning the crafting system myself but perhaps the point of making potato crates is to give your gathered resources a bottom baseline (since Trading items have no player based consumption)

What happens when black powder and potatoes no longer sell on the market? What happens when none of the basic commodities do because everyone has warehouses full of them. The point then is to convert those basic resources into craft goods at a profit. As long as your crafted materials can be sold for a reasonable amount MORE than your vendor price, you're good.

As far as the durability on the crafted items there are other benefits. High durability tools have less weight, take less inventory space and in the case of fishing rods, will ensure you don't go to 0 durability while you're AFKFishing.

Stuff to think on I guess.

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Posted

There are problems with the economy. But in this example you have included food for your works plus materials. If you have workers you are not buying the materials on the market. Regardless it's still not worthwhile making some items. 

I would love to supply Thick Fishing Rods for instance. I have put some on the market as an experiment to see if there is demand (4 sold in minutes) but given that they can only sell for 9,000 silver and Copper Ingots (required to make the rod) sell for 14,000 - 15,000 silver I am better off making ingots and selling those instead of collecting the other stuff I need for the fishing rod. 

 

 

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Posted

When it comes to crafting tools if we go by durability vs silver costs, you can buy a basic 10 durability tool for 60 silver or 6 silver per durability

A 120 durability tool costs from 27k to 60k depending on the tool, even if we take the lowest end at 27k it works out at 225 silver per durability

Yes you get increased speed benefit from a higher tier tool, however all that speed means is you're going to burn through your energy quicker

So for fast burn of energy it costs 219 silver per tick more

As energy is a finite resource it works out being more beneficial to use the basic tool because it's not only cheaper, but due to the longer collection time it means you have less down time waiting for energy to be replenished.

At standard 20 second speed you'll get a new energy every 9 collection, compared to the steel set at 12 second collection it would take 15 collections to gain a new energy

There plenty other issues going on with the economy, like obscene tax rates, an really bad balance between supply and demand for numerous product (This is due to energy/time/cost/profits issues within the economy)

 

What can be the solution ?

For starters energy needs to go, this is not a facebook/browser game where you are time gated waiting for energy to recover for people who only want to do craft are forced to either AFK or do something they don't wish to do, this is negative as eventually these players will just quit out of frustration.

People have paid good money to play this game and there's absolutely no reason for energy to be in a paid for game, if we take for instance EvE Online, it has the most indepth economic system in any game, there is no energy and the system functions perfectly without any interference from artificial mechanics (next point)

The automatic price fixing from the game also needs a massive overhaul for some reason it's overvaluing some items and undervaluing others and seems to have very little connection to the actual supply vs demand.

 

However I do feel this post will fall on deaf ears as Daum seem to be very very silent at addressing anything players bring up

So, Good news to this is that the higher quality tools can actually pull more items out of stuff and give a chance for higher quality items from stuff, therefore the whole cost vs durability is kinda shot there. I love the fact that you brought EvE-O into this too. The economy in that game is perfect for a few reasons, one being they have hired an actual professional economist to ensure the market economy is not tanking for an unknown reason. If Daum did this, opened up trading and allowed for a free market it would fix some of these issues (and the way EvE does price fixing is by having NPCs buy and sell certain items in certain quantities to prevent hyper-inflation/deflation).

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Posted

I have posted about it before, but our energy system is really messed up. the energy is a hard wall for a large portion of the content in the game, processing was not originally intended by the game developers to take energy. the price of beer is massively inflated because of this, and the price of many other things will drastically skew as the game goes on. energy being used for processing is going to have long lasting negative effects for many parts of the game, and needs to be seriously looked into.

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Posted

why are you even buying potatoes off the market when you can sent one or more of your gimps out to farm them for you?

Also you can use a few of those potatoes to make your own beer so you don't have to buy that on the market either.

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Posted

There are problems with the economy. But in this example you have included food for your works plus materials. If you have workers you are not buying the materials on the market. Regardless it's still not worthwhile making some items. 

I would love to supply Thick Fishing Rods for instance. I have put some on the market as an experiment to see if there is demand (4 sold in minutes) but given that they can only sell for 9,000 silver and Copper Ingots (required to make the rod) sell for 14,000 - 15,000 silver I am better off making ingots and selling those instead of collecting the other stuff I need for the fishing rod. 

 

 

Which is exactly why I said the above.

2- When they change the price of items for the market place, when one item like bronze ingots go up in price, everything that requires bronze should go up as well.  

3- Mats should never be more then the crafted item.  If #2 was put in place then this would not happen.

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Posted

 

As an example to make a potato crate it costs 10 potato and 1 black stone powder

When you're lucky to find potato for sale it costs 28 per potato so 280s for crate

Black stone powder is 1200s

So that's almost 1.5k silver to make the crate not factoring time costs and beer usage for workers if we throw in beer as well then at current rates it's at 1.3k silver

So that's 2.8k silver to make a pack that you can sell for anywhere from 900 to 1.3k silver

It's means no player will bother using this "content" in it's current as there's literally no point when you can just sell black stone power for the same price of the pack

 Ok get a worker for veila and send them to farm the potatoes and all it will cost you is beer that you can buy or make.

Black Stone power can be made from all those little gems you loot from killing mobs which costs you nothing.

So all your numbers are wrong if you play the game BUT if you just want to put nothing into the game but spending silver then ya your right....

 

So really nothing is wrong with the game if you are not too lazy to play it... seem the problem is with the player in this case just being lazy and wanting everything given to them;

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Posted

 

 Ok get a worker for veila and send them to farm the potatoes and all it will cost you is beer that you can buy or make.

Black Stone power can be made from all those little gems you loot from killing mobs which costs you nothing.

So all your numbers are wrong if you play the game BUT if you just want to put nothing into the game but spending silver then ya your right....

 

So really nothing is wrong with the game if you are not too lazy to play it... seem the problem is with the player in this case just being lazy and wanting everything given to them;

The problem is for people who love to craft.  There is no market for crafted items just mats.  Since mats sell for so much more then crafted there's no point

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Posted

The market is very wonky atm. Everyones grinding skills and levelling their professions...therefore, the resources are more valuable than the product.

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seriously, did u factor in that we have workers for daily chores or grunt work

Workers can only gather certain things, they also can't process everything either, not to mention a worker costs beer at 1.2k a pint which I already mentioned if you actually bothered to read

why are you even buying potatoes off the market when you can sent one or more of your gimps out to farm them for you?

Also you can use a few of those potatoes to make your own beer so you don't have to buy that on the market either.

I don't I gather my own potatos through workers BUT the cost of a potato is 28silver if I were to sell them instead of use them. It doesn't mean they're free because I gather them myself they still have a cost attached to them

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The market is very wonky atm. Everyones grinding skills and levelling their professions...therefore, the resources are more valuable than the product.

Yeah the game is new so people are much more concerned with leveling, and leveling their life skills, which makes the base resource item more valuable. Once that's over, the market should normalize after a while. 

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Posted (edited)

so the market price is exactly what the people want they want the raw material more then the final product is weird but is not broken is where the people is driving it and is reacting accordingly to the need of the people

the need more melted material then fishing rod made with that melted material

I don't think is wrong you just need to read the market and react to it as consequence there will be a time when the final product will be more requested

you are complaining because you WANT to do the fishing rod to raise ur skill and are pissed because it wont sell as good as the raw material that you dont want to sell because you want to use it

so you are calling it wrong/broken because it doesn't behave as you wish it would for what are ur needs. live with it and sell the raw material 

Edited by NgocTu

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Posted

Yeah the game is new so people are much more concerned with leveling, and leveling their life skills, which makes the base resource item more valuable. Once that's over, the market should normalize after a while. 

Workers gather more than enough resources to level up life skills without needing to buy any off the market though, a guy posted in another thread that he has 150 energy and his workers provide more resources than he can use.

So your opinion that prices are high because people are leveling up life skills simply isn't true

 

 Ok get a worker for veila and send them to farm the potatoes and all it will cost you is beer that you can buy or make.

Black Stone power can be made from all those little gems you loot from killing mobs which costs you nothing.

So all your numbers are wrong if you play the game BUT if you just want to put nothing into the game but spending silver then ya your right....

 

So really nothing is wrong with the game if you are not too lazy to play it... seem the problem is with the player in this case just being lazy and wanting everything given to them;

The point is, I'm doing all this.

I want to actually craft stuff but my workers give me more resources than I have energy/replenishment and it's actually pointless crafting when the raw materials are worth more than the finished products. And it isn't to do with supply vs demand because workers provide more resources than anybody can use

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Posted (edited)

The market is very wonky atm. Everyones grinding skills and levelling their professions...therefore, the resources are more valuable than the product.

Yeah the game is new so people are much more concerned with leveling, and leveling their life skills, which makes the base resource item more valuable. Once that's over, the market should normalize after a while. 

so the market price is exactly what the people want they want the raw material more then the final product is weird but is not broken is where the people is driving it and is reacting accordingly to the need of the people

the need more melted material then fishing rod made with that melted material

I don't think is wrong you just need to read the market and react to it as consequence there will be a time when the final product will be more requested

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought prices were fix.

Edited by Haishao

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Posted (edited)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought prices were fix.

They are, which proves they have no clue and are just apologists to a flawed system

Edited by ArgleBargle
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Posted

i always was under the assumption that the fix price is not a constant but it increase of decrease depending on availability

(more or less like amazon work the less people buy that resource the more the fix price range go down the more the people buy that resource the more the price fix price range go up)

I remember discussing it in another post with someone else but i don't know who brought it up i should monitor the fix price for a week and see if is the same everyday

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Posted

The problem is for people who love to craft.  There is no market for crafted items just mats.  Since mats sell for so much more then crafted there's no point

As of yet i havent seen any crafted items such as weapons or armor which i am working on now.  So really i dont think it has been long enough to make a judgement or complaint.  I have bene looking at some of the crafted items and they are insane.

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Posted

maybe people just don't have the extra cash to afford those type of things yet once people is richer maybe they will start to buy more final products too many reason why is hard to judge the market yet.

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Posted (edited)

maybe people just don't have the extra cash to afford those type of things yet once people is richer maybe they will start to buy more final products too many reason why is hard to judge the market yet.

It's not hard to judge it because they tried these systems in Russia and it failed, yet they somehow though it would work here.

To be honest I wouldn't give a shit about the prices if I wasn't suffocated by energy (or the lack of it)

I want to craft, not do some craft then do some other shit to fill my time while I wait for the Shitville style energy to recover

As of yet i havent seen any crafted items such as weapons or armor which i am working on now.  So really i dont think it has been long enough to make a judgement or complaint.  I have bene looking at some of the crafted items and they are insane.

You will be the only one because in all the guides for gearing there's no mention of using crafted gear over the stuff you loot in game

Edited by ArgleBargle

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Posted

again what you want is not always what is best for the community actually usually is the opposite what we want favor us and create big problem if left unregulated

I honestly don't care what you want and limit the good, especially where good are not limited by natural reason (virtual goods can be infinite), it's always a good idea

 

suck being you if you just like 1 of the 100 aspects of the game and cannot balance them out doing a bit of everything.

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