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The cash shop "issue" and the truth most dont want to hear

117 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

This post got quite a bit of attention on the BDO subreddit so I will just copy paste it here. Unfortunately the moderators of the subreddit deleted it for a to me unknown reason. It was on the frontpage and suddenly disappeared. Maybe we can continue this here, since the reddit mods seem too biased to address the issue and prefer censorship over actual discussion. (post re-approved).

People keep complaining about the high costume prices, the non-perma dyes and the general pricing on the BDO cash shop. Let me point out why this makes no sense whatsoever.

Cost of other MMO: Buy game (50) + pay sub (12/month) + DLC/Expansion (50/1-2 years) -> spent in first 12 months: 194 -> spent in first 24 months: 388 -> spent without sub fee: ~50/year

Cost of BDO: Buy game (30) Thats all there is to it. There will never be any expansion packs, DLC or a sub fee. You spend 30 bucks and can play indefinitely.


Now why is that important? Because its the money you can spend on the cash shop instead. If you are willing to spend a sub on this game, then you have an additional 164 bucks to spend in the first, and an additional 194 bucks to spend for any following year. With that money you can buy dyes, costumes, pets, whatever. Plenty of them as well.

Why arent costumes used for multiple classes

Multiple reasons. 1) Preserve the art style, at least to some extend. A Giant running around in a Sorceress' costumes would look utterly retarded. 2) To increase sales. If you only have to buy once to get a costume for every single class, then the probability that you will buy something else decreases drastically. You have the costume you really wanted so what reason do you have to spend any more money?


Why are dyes not permanent

Because they are supposed to make you gamble and spend more money. If they were permanent, then you wouldnt have a reason to ever buy them once you got the colors you want. Due to the game not forcing you to pay jack shit it needs a constant income through gambling mechanics or else you wouldnt have a reason to spend any money.


But Guild Wars 2 has a perma dye system

And Guild Wars 2 (basically) sells in game money on the cash shop while also forcing you to spend money on Expansions, money that you safe in BDO. Hell, BDO even has a lower price for the base game. GW2 started at 50 bucks, BDO at 30.


Other games ask you to spend less on items (Dota, LoL, CSGO)

Generally a false statement. Especially Dota and CSGO rely on gambling mechanics and reselling items that give Valve a piece of the cake of everything single mother-----ing transaction. LoL sells skins for 30 bucks I believe, and those are for a single character as well.

All these games focus completely different demographics and are part of different genres. They are about the competition while MMOs are about character progression. Not even gonna start that they have significantly bigger playerbases.

Edit: Another thing to take into consideration is the amount of champions. You dont buy skins for 1 class, you buy them for a dozen or more characters. If you buy an appealing costume for your main then the probability that you will buy another one, or spend a lot of money on alts, is reduced immediately. In LoL you will buy more because you dont have a main, you have a group of champions that, depending on the current balancing of the game, might actually be the entire hero pool after having played for multiple years.

If a character is suddenly bad then you wont main it anymore. If you have a new main, you will want to buy new skins again. And so on, its a never ending cycle.

Edit 2 (further elaboration on the three specific games and why you cant compare them):

As for DotA and LoL: I already explained that these games work in a different way. They constantly make you reroll. If X is good in patch A, then you might buy items for him. If hes shit in patch B you probably wont sell them but instead buy item for Y, because hes good now and your new main. And so on. This is particularly important for LoL because you cant trade or sell skins, which means that the game indirectly forces you to constantly rebuy shit if you want to look good. Sure, at some point you might own skins for all characters but by that point Riot cashed in so hard that it doesnt even matter if you stop spending.

Its also notable that the incentive to buy items in Steam games is higher. You can always resell them, which factors into the decision of buying the item in the first place. If a CSGO player buys a knife, Valve gets a cut. If he quits and sells it, Valve gets a cut. That way the company gets cuts even though no new items appearing on the market. And an item worth 60 bucks makes them endless streams of money because its constantly being resold. Its like a credit of 1 buck that keeps being re-lend and at some point pays for a market of 10 bucks because everybody is indebted to someone else.

The item keeps generating cash past its actual value. If the thing costs 60 bucks, then that is because the average knife costs around 60 bucks in keys. Which means that Valve already made money off of the keys, and continues to make money off of resales. Of course items are cheap in a system like that. Valve can allow them to be sold cheap because the simple fact that the thing exists, already prints money for them.

Its a completely different business model that cant simply be applied to any game, it requires certain parameters.


Why not just sell some stuff for cheap?

Because thats settling for mediocrity. If they sell costumes for cheap, said costumes have to look shit or else less people buy the expensive ones. Shit looking costumes ruin the games artstyle even more than the meme costumes you find in the KR version.


But we would spend a lot of money if they were cheap

It has been shown by various studies that only a tiny, tiny minority of players in F2P titles spend any money at all. Further, of the players that spend money, a small minority of them account for half or more of the revenue. The numbers are obviously going to vary between titles, but the most recent large study concluded that only 2.2% of users ever paid at all, and the people accounting for half of the revenue were a bit less than 10% of those, at 0.15% of the total users.

One example study: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-04-09-only-2-2-percent-of-free-to-play-users-ever-pay-report

One could argue that progression (looks) is more important in MMOs than it is in competitive games and therefore would result in more players to actually spend money. But thats highly unlikely and we lack the evidence to back up that claim.


Now lets go back to the original calculations:

You want to play a game with loads of content

You want to play a game with constant patches

You want to play a game with fast support

Yet, for some reason, you believe that all of this could be financed by having cheap costumes on the shop even though countless studies telling us that they vast majority of the playerbase never spends a cent no matter the pricing of the items. You want everything yet arent willing to spend. The game frees up 164 bucks in the first and 194 bucks in consecutive years, yet youre still not willing to spend.

The argument that breaking even on the cost of a costume is easy makes no sense. Sure the item doesnt have a raw material cost. But its also supposed to pay for all the content. The costume isnt just supposed to refinance itself but pay for the -----ing patches, the balancing, the servers, the support, the forum moderation and the air conditioning in the broom closet.


So please, for the love of god, if you want them to adjust the current pricing then come up with some proper arguments. Because all I see on this subreddit and the official forums is greed. Everybody wants everything for (basically) free. You save money, yet want to keep that money for yourself. Who gives a shit about the developers, right?

I will add this bit because I see too many people arguing feelings:

You can claim whatever you want but ignoring the company's purpose (generating profits) wont get you anywhere. Asking them to miss out on profits so you can have what you crave wont make them change their mind.

And thats the problem we are facing: If you want them to change their position then you need to provide an alternative that generates a higher expected return. And that seems to be something that, at least in their opinion, doesnt currently exist. Maybe it will at some point, but not right now.

To be honest: I also think that the prices are partially too high but that doesnt change the fact that I accept the company's position. I am not distancing myself from it, looking at myself as a separate individual that can simply ignore the publishers revenue. The two of us must work together. And if the company makes most of its money by catering to whales, then what right do I have to complain if I wouldnt be able to make up for the potential loss?

Am I supposed to tell them to skip on money to not hurt my feelings? None of us know their numbers. Based on our knowledge the company wants to make as much money as possible so why would they apply a badly optimized system and hold on to it forever if it wasnt generating as much cash as expected?

Maybe they'll adjust it in a month because they were wrong, or maybe they dont. But neither your complaints will have an impact on it nor your feelings, only the revenue will. If you want the system to change then refuse to spend money. If the system stays then there werent enough people who agreed with your position. Its that simple.

Edited by nyyyyy
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Posted

Someone already made a thread for this reddit crap that makes no sense, stop making new threads.

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Posted

Someone already made a thread for this reddit crap that makes no sense, stop making new threads.

I am sure that there are a lot of things that dont make much sense to you. Doesnt mean that its actually the case.

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Posted

You are correct we don't want to hear it. Because there is nothing original to say on this topic.

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Posted

I would be happy to pay for the Merv's Dye Palette premium 15/30 day service once it is out. To me, since there is no monthly subscription, but cosmetics are important, I would substitute that saved subscription money on a premium dye service that the other regions have. It wouldn't replace the permanent dye system, though, perhaps those dyes should be able to be listed on the Marketplace since we have an unused tab due to no trading Cash Shop merch.

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Posted

 

beautifully paraphrased. 

giphy.gif

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Posted

The truth is that post was dumb as -----.

 

Ride Daum's ----- harder why don't you, they're not making enough money from half a million 100 euro packs plus $30 costumes and $30 base game price.

 

Jesus you people are -----ed up.

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Posted

LOL, another topic, compared GW2? Get back 3 years and then compared since GW2 goes F2P in 3 years before expansion, as of now all your argument are pointless and stupid to even mention.

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Posted

Everything in this post makes sense 

if nothing else take a look at what youre really complaining about a COSMETIC ON AN MMO, Daum isn't behind some conspiracy to drain you out of every single penny you got. 

They gotta make money somehow. Once you have your inv slots and ghillie costume and exp one you're done. You'll never need to spend another dime on the game ever again if all you care about is staying functional, if you want to look better thats on you then go for it. 

I feel like the people who do wanna look better should have to pay. Me? Personally I dont give a ----- what my guy looks like so guess what? I'm not going to pay any extra

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Posted

.

Why arent costumes used for multiple classes

Multiple reasons. 1) Preserve the art style, at least to some extend. A Giant running around in a Sorceress' costumes would look utterly retarded. 


 

i hope this is a troll post. You are aware half the founders costumes are a copy paste of each other right?

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Posted

Hopping Jehoshaphat!  Another thread on this dead horse topic is not necessary.  It's been beaten to death already.

To the OP, I actually agree that the CS prices are ridiculously high for a B2P game like BDO.  But opening yet another thread is just pointless.  The only thing that is going to work in realizing a change is for everyone offended by this pricing to simply NOT BUY.  Vote with your wallet.

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Posted

I'm not going to argue with you on a thread that was already made like 2 hours ago, go check that one.

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/39830-reddit-the-cash-shop-issue-and-the-truth-most-dont-want-to-hear/

Huh, so thats how people farm upboats on the forums, by reposting other people content. Thanks for the link, didnt see it on the first 2 pages when I checked earlier.

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Posted

My horse learned crap skill pay 10 for the horse to relearn it in the next level

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Posted

Huh, so thats how people farm upboats on the forums, by reposting other people content. Thanks for the link, didnt see it on the first 2 pages when I checked earlier.

I actually said in a comment on the first page I didn't make the original thread above, just copypasta from reddit to up debates - i've amended the thread now to redirect here, not in anyway an upvote farm, just wanted to see discussion on it here as well as reddit.

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Posted (edited)

I actually said in a comment on the first page I didn't make the original thread above, just copypasta from reddit to up debates - i've amended the thread now to redirect here, not in anyway an upvote farm, just wanted to see discussion on it here as well as reddit.

Its fine, I wasnt being serious. Just surprised that it was reposted so quickly. As you said, its more important to bring attention to the issue than gathering the pointless forum upboats.

Edited by nyyyyy

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Posted

OP,

"...even though countless studies telling us that they vast majority of the playerbase never spends a cent no matter the pricing of the items"

Countless studies...? Really? And you have links to some of these countless studies as proof?

The current state of the cash shop is a bad issue. However, the way the OP goes about it is plain faulty generalization unfortunately and throwing pages of text into a post doesn't make it any more true than the opposite.

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Posted

 


So please, for the love of god, if you want them to adjust the current pricing then come up with some proper arguments. Because all I see on this subreddit and the official forums is greed. Everybody wants everything for (basically) free. You save money, yet want to keep that money for yourself. Who gives a shit about the developers, right?

Muh poor devs who made at least 12 million dollars off a shitty translation and horrible voice acting. They won't be able to eat if you don't buy RNG dyes ;----;

 

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Posted

Muh poor devs who made at least 12 million dollars off a shitty translation and horrible voice acting. They won't be able to eat if you don't buy RNG dyes ;----;

 

The point of a company is to make money. Without making profits, both publishers and developers will pursue different endeavors so its in our interest for them to make money. The game is dirt cheap for what you get so I think that the cash shop 'issue' is being blown completely out of proportion.

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Posted

The point of a company is to make money. Without making profits, both publishers and developers will pursue different endeavors so its in our interest for them to make money. The game is dirt cheap for what you get so I think that the cash shop 'issue' is being blown completely out of proportion.

You're right OP. We need to defend the publisher, they won't be able to eat without RNG dye sales ;-;. Let's start a movement #GiveMoneyToDaum. I think I got the perfect song to make a commercial with.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SiylvmFI_8

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Posted

@Requiem

Oh look, another 20 min went by ;)

I want to say, I really get where you're coming from so don't think I am saying what I said then and now as being anything against the ideas expressed... but look at how fruitful this conversation really is being.

People already made up their minds on this issue awhile ago.

Muh poor devs who made at least 12 million dollars off a shitty translation and horrible voice acting. They won't be able to eat if you don't buy RNG dyes ;----;

 

Made up numbers based on nothing aside...

12 million dollars means nothing if it cost 15 million to get there. Not saying you're right or wrong explicitly, just none of us are really qualified to make statements on how much money the game actually makes without seeing the balance sheet.

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Posted (edited)

one thing that this thread doesn't seem to calculate at all is the nature of micro transactions. yes, gw2 is more expensive to purchase, but the thing with the dyes is, collectively, gachapon like cash shop items are a far greater cash sink than any other cash shop method. people spend more money without realizing it often times because they just HAVE to have the right color. and with trading disabled, that further enforces the urge to purchase. this is why i like the way gw2 does their permanent dye system

and RNG is different for everyone. one person could spend a few dollars and get lucky with a rare dye where a people like me might have to spend hundreds. and collectively in this game's community, that would outweigh the initial purchase price by a large margin alone.

as for unique costumes per character, the idea that it "preserves" the art style is a subjective matter based on the developer's preference. again, with guild wars two, outfits are universal between characters. so if you have 6, you only ever have to purchase a costume once. in contrast, in black desert, you must buy each 25 dollar outfit bundle for each character???? that's a 150 dollar value. and people will want to purchase more than one outfit too. you also have to consider people's moods and what they might feel like wearing one day vs another.

guild wars also lets you trade in game currency for cash shop currency... so grinding makes the game pretty much 100% free after the initial purchase.... i don't mind paying 50 dollars per expansion because over all it's far less expensive....

there is a game called warframe where you can literally get 99% of the in game content for free. the only thing you MUST pay for is prime access, most of which you can still earn in game through grinding. yet, people spend so much money in warframe. the idea that developers and community managers actually get INVOLVED with the community is proven to be very possible through warframe because the community managers themselves and some of the main developers do live developer streams. and DURING those streams, they give away free platinum.

yes, warframe is a much newer and smaller game, but the point is that it is possible to be in touch with your gaming community.

 

i for one absolutely HATE gachapon like cash shop items and it makes me along with many others more reluctant to use my hard earned cash. so yeah... black desert is cheaper (cept for the people who bought the travelers/conqueror's pack, but in the long run, black desert is FAR more expensive.

(edit: by the way, if you need any proof from gw2 or warframe, i will most definately log in and prove what i'm talking about with screenshots. because i've been a long time player of both.

Edited by Acheros
adding some additional information

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Posted

...

Made up numbers based on nothing aside....

You're right it was probably much more, I was being nice and only counted all the pre-order sales as $30 and assuming the order numbers were right there was around 400,000 pre-orders before the free pearl thing screwed it up. You would have 12 million.

 

"15 million for a bad translation and voice acting"

Yeah I'm not gonna buy that.

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Posted

I think people need to stop b*tching about the cash shop prices. Most of these crying wh*res never even buy anything, unless it's like nearly for free. I think the pricing is fine. It's not that you HAVE to buy it. You want something? Then buy it. U don't want to pay for it? Then don't and f*ck off please. Thanks. :-)

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Posted

You are the perfect consumer. 

 

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