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PSA: Use Marker system, Game Mechanics, Ghillie suit p2w?


229 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Past few days there have been flaming posts about the ghillie suit and its overbearing advantage it offers. I've played alot to the point of no lifing in the KR servers, I've yet to see this "supreme bought advantage" in small scale pvp and in true large GvG (50v50 up and all over the map at the same time). It really pains me that the majority of the western community whines about the tiniest of things that irk them the wrong way without fully knowing how to play the game, and to those that just choose to enjoy the game without ever visiting the forums I understand why, but I shall try to go up against the waves of emotionally driven and troll infested posts.

That being said, this post is meant to shed some light to those in the dark. I understand very well that BDO pvp can be unforgiving and scary to new players. If you wish to contribute, keep it civil, if you have questions, ask nicely. I know there are other veterans out there than can also help answer questions.

TL;DR  Too many emotionally driven posts about ghillie, I don't own one, going to explain some basic game mechanics, trying to help public make informed logically driven decisions, keep everything civil or don't comment, read before commenting

matrix-redpill.gif

We shall begin with the arguments people have set on the table about the ghillie being pay to win:

1)Can't see their names for guild wars, can't locate strong players.

2)Can't call out targets if they're all wearing ghillie suits

3)Can't tell if they're friendly or not (both in small scale and GvG)

4)They are too hard to track and escape easily

5)I get ganked too easily because I didn't see/too hard to see them, I get one shot

6)"I can't get revenge" on someone who ganked me because I can't see their names

7)I can't identify what class they are

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now we shall start by getting rid of a misconception about flares:

Flare was not made for ghillies, they were made for players crouch walking amongst the enemy relaying back information, they were made for players that hide prone in thick bushes where you cannot physically see them (they hide there in order to find/destroy the enemy spawn tent once enough people leave it). Their intended purpose is for GvG, locating suspicious and hidden people, not for countering ghillies

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Rebuttals:

1)In large scale combat having one player that is really good means little, he may hold out a bit longer before being overwhelmed. Players will naturally detect the flow of battle and can single out the better players without ever looking for names. At that point their respective commanding officers should make the decision to focus that player down. This issue can be directly compared to the Tiger tanks of WW2. Good and really geared players being the tiger tanks, few and far between, and the regular players being sherman tanks, weak but great in abundance. Which influenced the war's flow in the end? That's right, the one with the greater numbers, pinning your hopes on a single asset will lose you the war as it does not make a great difference in the larger scale of things.

2)The game comes with a built in mechanic that lets you mark targets or just place a marker or set rally points. These markers can be set to be seen only by your party or by your guild and allies. You can set a party marker by pressing shift+tilde, a guild wide marker can be set by pressing tilde. To set rally points its the same but double tap tilde instead. The markers will be placed wherever your cross-hair is. They can be seen on the mini-map, map and ingame.  This paired with voip should always be used in GvG and even in small scale fights, it makes pointing out targets easy as breathing, ghillie or no ghillie. A common theme you will see in this reply is discipline.

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3)In any fight/war, anyone that is approaching you aggressively is enemy, anyone that does not identify themselves before you is hostile. They have no other reason to approach you otherwise, especially with their name hidden. Again, it is your own guild's discipline at hand here, your leaders should know where their units are and what they're doing and your hidden guildmates should always communicate to you where they are. Good communication = good situational awareness = control over the battle. Personal opinion here, I play with names other than my party and guild/allies turned off to remove clutter, helps me see clearly what the enemy is holding in their hands to help identify the classes. Highly recommend.

4)That is a problem on a personal level for you and not a valid point of the suit being p2w. All the people that I've played with have no troubles tracking someone in a ghillie to the ends of the earth in large or small scale pvp.

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5)The ghillied players are not hidden on your map, if you were ganked in such a way they could've been wearing a suit with flashing disco lights and you still would've been ganked. The only solution is for you to be more vigilant you are in a pvp zone. It maybe harder for you if you do not have any fps background leading to you having poor tracking skills but all this can be remedied with practice. Also just as in point #3, if you see a ghillie or anyone for that matter approaching you, it is in your right to attack and defend yourself. If you died from 1 to 2 hits then that only means 2 things, your gear is way too low and his gear is +10 up, but that is a discussion for another day (*cough* +20 weapons *cough*).

6)You not knowing who to kill for revenge is not a p2w matter, there is a kill feed, you can find out their name. If you really desire revenge and want it enough, remember the name from the kill feed and just pop flares next to the ghillies in the safe zone and stalk the person until they leave it. But regardless this problem is akin to getting pked only to find your pker in the safe zone and he/she logged out possibly never to be seen again for you. What will you do then? In the end, it is a personal problem and does not hinder gameplay. Until the bounty system comes out, your thirst for revenge will have to wait next to your Deathnote.

ed9f61b8380de32ddda54e78a9fcccd7.jpg

7)I simply do not understand this point, the classes are extremely easy to tell apart with weapons drawn simply by how they hold themselves. The moment they equip their weapon you should be able to identify what they are, especially if you reached level 50 and haven't been hiding in a hole. Warriors have a big ass shield and poses the same as the valkyrie with the shield arm (left arm) raised, tamer's always hold the sword and sheath out arms apart and are generally small and very slender, rangers hold a bow while crouched arms together, wizard and witches have staffs and if you cannot identify a giant.....

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regardless of there being ghillies in a fight, you and your guild should always be on alert, heads on a swivel with clear and understandable communication. Always observe before jumping into the fray, if you're already in the thick of it, it is everyone's duty to point out and mark the glass cannons and report back to everyone. Communication is key. If you are technologically handicapped might I suggest you and your guild to use Mumble, a voip program, if you aren't bothered by technology, TS3 is another good alternative with plugins. This will enable your guild to have a good command structure where the comms aren't flooded with useless chatter. You can separate everyone into squads/parties, where only party members can hear each other and party leaders have the ability to communicate with other party leaders and their respective commanding officer and so on and so forth depending on the size of your guild. Sound like the military? Yes its based off of that, guild I was apart of in KR used it to devastating effect. Everyone gets to know what they need to know when they need to know and raises overall situational awareness.

ZuwbJSh.jpg

In conclusion, this "advantage" you get with the ghillie suit is superficial. If your guild is steamrolled by a group of roaming ghillies it is attributed to your guild's lack of discipline for its members or command structure, perhaps both. We will probably see a lot more unorganized battles until new guilds gather combat experience and when the real big guilds that are organized with veterans step out of the shadows. Please spend you energy on more concerning topics such as weapon enchantments and the power gaps between +17 and +20 weapons.

Have an rebuttal based on fact? Have something in addition to contribute? Please post, but in a civilized fashion. Keep everything emotionally driven away, logic is your friend.

Edited by Alleyne
Post is not just about the ghillie suit debate, but rather a game mechanic built into the game, if we remove this, how much more will the community strip from it?
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Posted

Its a nice read and very helpful but it does not change the fact I really don't like the ghillie suit.

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Posted

great overview, hope some people start working on themselves instead on the game.

sadly i have yet to get the tilde marker to work (using qwertz keyboard but when im switching tu qwerty layout it still doesn't work). any ideas?

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Posted (edited)

Don't bother, this forum is full of crying little children.... I already experienced it when I tried to suggest why the game has trade set up the way it does. Instead they ignore you on everything you said and continue to argue.

 

----- the morons whining about the ghillie. They will whine about the new thing that comes along, it's so pathetic...

 

WoW you used to have COMPLETE INVISIBILITY for rogues....you couldn't see them. At all! try that one out...

Edited by EventH

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Posted

great overview, hope some people start working on themselves instead on the game.

sadly i have yet to get the tilde marker to work (using qwertz keyboard but when im switching tu qwerty layout it still doesn't work). any ideas?

you you pressing shift+` ?

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Posted

WoW you used to have COMPLETE INVISIBILITY for rogues....you couldn't see them. At all! try that one out...

to compare this to cash shop item is stupid, rogue is a in game class you do not need to pay to stealth in matter of fact a lot of classes stealth in WoW.

Druid/mage/hunter, they even have a race that has a race skill to stealth called night elf so I don't understand wtf you are getting at.

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Posted

Wait till Ninja drops lol.

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Posted (edited)

Its a nice read and very helpful but it does not change the fact I really don't like the ghillie suit.

But that is exactly my point, you not liking it=/= p2w. Congratulations you have taken the red pill.

Edited by Alleyne
bug with quoting

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Posted

I must say the bait memes are the best thing about the internet in 2016 so far.

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Posted

I must say the bait memes are the best thing about the internet in 2016 so far.



tbt.gif

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Posted

Since i dont care about the suit at all and just observe the conversation , i find it interesting that you put so much effort into this post, but the only two valid arguments the oppisite side has (4,5) you evaded by shady rhetoric and placed it directly in the middle.

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Posted (edited)

Since i dont care about the suit at all and just observe the conversation , i find it interesting that you put so much effort into this post, but the only two valid arguments the oppisite side has (4,5) you evaded by shady rhetoric and placed it directly in the middle.

I put so much effort into this because I love the game and when I see people run amok like headless chickens with half truths I feel the need to come out lurking and explain things. As you said point #4 is subjective, just because someone can't track targets doesn't mean others can't as well, it was written that way to show its ridiculousness. Point #5 you can see for yourself Ingame, they all appear on the minimap and glow red, the game offers you all the tools to react, therefore it is none other than the players own fault for not noticing. Nothing shady, just the painful truth.

 

the order in which I listed their arguments were exactly as they appeared in the other posts in that order.

Edited by Alleyne
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Posted

I put so much effort into this because I love the game and when I see people run amok like headless chickens with half truths I feel the need to come out lurking and explain things. As you said point #4 is subjective, just because someone can't track targets doesn't mean others can't as well, it was written that way to show its ridiculousness. Point #5 you can see for yourself Ingame, they all appear on the minimap and glow red, the game offers you all the tools to react, therefore it is none other than the players own fault for not noticing. Nothing shady, just the painful truth.

 

the order in which I listed their arguments were exactly as they appeared in the other posts in that order.

repeating the same rhetorics doesn't change the rhetorics.
Haven't disprove the objective advantage in 4/5 and thats what the real argument of the other side is about.
Just because people exist that can still track people as easy as with a contoured colored nametag, doesn't prove its the same for all.
If its not the same for all its an advantage to have it.
If you want to make an argument of how big each group is and wich group counts more i'm happy to see your statistical data.

5# is the same, just because there are other ways to trac doesn't disprove that its an advantage to have a nametag.
Everyone else also has these other methods, therefor not having a namebelt for tracking is 1 eyecatcher less and therfor its and objective disadvantage

You reduce them to "its p2w because they dont like it" while its actualy "its p2w because its an advantage that cost money" thats also shady rhetorics.


as i said i dont agree or disagree with any side, but thats not disproving the other side. That was just shady, like most people defending the suit.
Taking into account HOW people defend the suit, i already start asuming there must be something wrong with that suit.

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Posted (edited)

repeating the same rhetorics doesn't change the rhetorics.Haven't disprove the objective advantage in 4/5 and thats what the real argument of the other side is about.
Just because people exist that can still track people as easy as with a contoured colored nametag, doesn't prove its the same for all.
If its not the same for all its an advantage to have it.
If you want to make an argument of how big each group is and wich group counts more i'm happy to see your statistical data.

5# is the same, just because there are other ways to trac doesn't disprove that its an advantage to have a nametag.
Everyone else also has these other methods, therefor not having a namebelt for tracking is 1 eyecatcher less and therfor its and objective disadvantage

You reduce them to "its p2w because they dont like it" while its actualy "its p2w because its an advantage that cost money" thats also shady rhetorics.


as i said i dont agree or disagree with any side, but thats not disproving the other side. That was just shady, like most people defending the suit.
Taking into account HOW people defend the suit, i already start asuming there must be something wrong with that suit.

What you have just described in what people want is the game pong. Pong is the only game to have ever come close to being neutral. Any multiplayer game beyond that has some form of advantage over the opposition. The reason why 4/5 are subjective is because there has been a lot of different ways shown, pets, flares, minimap, glowing red, etc, on top of just being cautious when you see one AND add to the fact that the game is two weeks old for most of these people so it's safe to assume, subjectively, that the way to deal with the treant costume hasn't been standardize yet.

Edited by remix87

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Posted

Sigh believe

repeating the same rhetorics doesn't change the rhetorics.Haven't disprove the objective advantage in 4/5 and thats what the real argument of the other side is about.
Just because people exist that can still track people as easy as with a contoured colored nametag, doesn't prove its the same for all.
If its not the same for all its an advantage to have it.
If you want to make an argument of how big each group is and wich group counts more i'm happy to see your statistical data.

5# is the same, just because there are other ways to trac doesn't disprove that its an advantage to have a nametag.
Everyone else also has these other methods, therefor not having a namebelt for tracking is 1 eyecatcher less and therfor its and objective disadvantage

You reduce them to "its p2w because they dont like it" while its actualy "its p2w because its an advantage that cost money" thats also shady rhetorics.


as i said i dont agree or disagree with any side, but thats not disproving the other side. That was just shady, like most people defending the suit.
Taking into account HOW people defend the suit, i already start asuming there must be something wrong with that suit.

Sigh read it how you want, suit has never bothered me. All I did was point out the truth and the built in mechanics of the game, if you believe you need to see a name in order to fight someone then it is your own handicap. At this point they should just keep everything as is but remove everyone's name in a warzone and pvp areas. Done, no more "advantage" right? Blue pill for you sir.

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Posted (edited)

Sigh believe

Sigh read it how you want, suit has never bothered me. All I did was point out the truth and the built in mechanics of the game, if you believe you need to see a name in order to fight someone then it is your own handicap. At this point they should just keep everything as is but remove everyone's name in a warzone and pvp areas. Done, no more "advantage" right? Blue pill for you sir.

Speaking about handicaps...
if you think any of my arguments said "you need to see a nametag in order to fight someone" you are obviously handicaped.
This is already the 2nd time you fail so horrible hard when trying to repeat my arguments.
Please show me a single quote where i say you need a nametag in order to fight someone.
If you can't find a quote -> handicap confirmed :)

At least we now know you are a fanboy using shady rheotorics to manipulate people, acording to your confirmation. So the best would be removing the entire suite, because there must be something wrong about it, if you act like this :)

Edited by Faustus
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Posted

Speaking about handicaps...if you think any of my arguments said "you need to see a nametag in order to fight someone" you are obviously handicaped.
This is already the 2nd time you fail so horrible hard when trying to repeat my arguments.
Please show me a single quote where i say you need a nametag in order to fight someone.
If you can't find a quote -> handicap confirmed :)

At least we now know are a fanboy using shady rheotorics to manipulate people, acording to your confirmation. So the best would be removing the entire suite, because there must be something wrong about it, if you act like this :)

Lol Never said you said anything about needing nametags :) 

The people complaining are, so there's the best solution, remove everyone's name tag until u mouse over them when you're close. Clearly you care about the suit and the direction that its going, its ok to be concerned, that is why we are all posting but keep your emotions in check so that it does not cloud your thoughts. :) 

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Posted

People want a devil they can focus their frustration on.  Last week's was the cash shop.  This week it's the G-Suit.  Next week, who knows? 

 

It functions as advertised, and existed in the game prior to it being released to our market.  The suit augments the game's mechanics that allow for guerilla warfare.  It's a pretty sweet concept for an MMO.  When I hear people complaining about it, I can't help but picture troops in a standard rank and file military from 200-300 years ago, complaining about having to deal with irregulars and guerilla warfare.

 

Hmm.  Now I think I'm going to go watch Last of the Mohicans while I AFK fish.

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Posted

All this bullshit is negated by one single sentence:

"If it is so balanced it doesnt need to be nerfed, why does it need to stay?"

Explain why it needs to stay in game, if its not pay to win, then why do you care if it bonuses stay or go?

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Posted

All this bullshit is negated by one single sentence:

"If it is so balanced it doesnt need to be nerfed, why does it need to stay?"

Explain why it needs to stay in game, if its not pay to win, then why do you care if it bonuses stay or go?

Because if the company caves in to this ridiculousness the part of the community that cries at every corner will begin to whine about every other aspect that grabs their attention right after this one. Forcing the game to change to suit their tastes, until this game becomes another carbon copy of every other western mmo. Which in itself ruins the appeal of this game, it was so special and appealing because it was different. This game is the Arma of fantasy mmorpgs, people are supposed to use guerrilla tactics, guilds are supposed to have recon units, people are encouraged to use the environment to their advantage. It needs to stay because if you remove it, you start the downward spiral into the rabbit hole. What will you do when people start using dyes to dye their armor sets dark green, it serves the same purpose as camouflage and breaks the outline of a human better than the poor excuse of a ghillie suit that the trent suit is. The same group of people will begin to complain about the dyes giving an advantage and to remove dyes. Where do we go then? Indeed this is bullshit, because the complaints are superficial. If you really want to remove pay to win stuff, remove the pets, remove the horse costumes, but we can't have that now can we? Also your question answers itself, but I decided to humor you.

Now let me ask you this, we now remove all the name tags during GvG and in pvp zones, but keep the suits to have those people happy, then what? Keep in mind I do not own one of those suits. The other advantage you claim it has, camouflage can be replicated to a degree that works better on the human brain than the trent suit via dyes. What do you recommend to do then?

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Posted

God Tier Shit

Sir, you are among the Gods. Old and new.

I need more likes. 

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Posted

if it confers no advantage why not just remove that effect? Win win.

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Posted

if it confers no advantage why not just remove that effect? Win win.

Because they want to remove the entire suit itself, not the effect. They say it makes it harder from them to track their target. But then sometimes they say its not because of the suit and its because of the effect (not being able to see the names). The lack of consistency in their reasons really puzzles me. I merely made this post to show people about some game mechanics and how superficial the advantage was so that they can make an informed decision and post solutions, but they all just seem to be an angry mob repeating the same phrase over and over again.

giphy.gif

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Posted

Thank the gods you wrote this Im tired of all the complaint threads about treat suits.

People say p2w but have no clue to the meaning of the word. It provides zero combat Stat effects no exp/no ap/no dp/no hp/no mp/no evasion/no resistance/no accuracy although +1 gathering speed is nice imo.

It hides the name sure but you will at least know what class attacked you. And if they do manage to kill you the combat log tab will show you their name. I like the ghillie suit mainly for gathering speed but I like the aesthetics of the desert one more. If they're red dogs highlights them red keeps pinging the map. 

Tldr play the game and stop trying to change the game mechanics or leave.

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Posted (edited)

I liked your post and ofc the Thread, you explain "Mechanics/Statics" of the Situation very well, but you miss the main Point of the Problem or talk about other issues. Why the Suit/mechanic is "only" as Cash Shop Item available? This Item which give you a Unique mechanic as you said  is a Cash shop Item.

I hope you understand the thing i try to get out. 

Edited by Blacksheep

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