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Why No-Trading is the best feature of Black Desert

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Posted

This explains how BDO is an equal opportunity game, how and why it works, and why it will attracts players that enjoy this kind of gameplay.

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Posted (edited)

Great article and I agree on most counts.  The only thing I would like to see is the ability to sell items directly to guildies for a price consistent with the current market.  For instance I build fishing ships and would love to sell them to guildies.  

On a personal note I'm REALLY happy you can't trade directly because I have a house for of kids, wife, etc. that used me as a walking ATM machine in other games.  No seriously folks.

Edited by RealityAskew
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I'm just going to go over my opinions really fast at 7am in the morning, so if i say something stupid, be gentle. 

"Reason One - Trading Limitations keep crafting products valuable."

Fixed prices keep things valuable, that doesn't really have anything to do with player trades. this extends to local and channel specific markets, if you want to get into specifics. 

Reason Two - Trading Limitations make selling products fair and accessable to everyone.

Actually the fixed pricing makes a lot of products not available period, because it's demand isn't worth what's offered for supply. Simply, stuff is set too cheap to bother with the AH which is also capped on how much you can sell. 

-In addition-

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Reason Three - No trading equalizes the little guy from the huge guild.

Actually it's the exact opposite, big guilds monopoly the market because everything we buy or sell on the market lines their pockets with enough money to buy out anything and everything on the market without ever touching life skills or farming anything. 

 

Most people that are wanting trade are wanting it for the multiplayer aspects, they don't care, or have anything against fixed market prices, which is a lot of what you seemed to focus on, for which a lot of us agree is better. 

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As a result, the value of things change. Since players by and large have way more time than they do availability of resources to combine and crafting is usually not an intensive activity, in economies like WoW's, the actual INGREDIENTS behind crafting become more valuable than the PRODUCT. I'm sure all of you have seen this at one point or another in other games.

This happened in TERA.  So many people don't realize energy and player-trade limitations are actually good for the game's economy, because they only look at it from the perspective of "I want to give my friends stuff to help them."  Enabling trade has far more implications than just letting you gear up your friend.  It's not about what would be best for you individually, but what's best for the game overall.

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Posted

Great article and I agree on most counts.  The only thing I would like to see is the ability to sell items directly to guildies for a price consistent with the current market.  For instance I build fishing ships and would love to sell them to guildies.  

Yes, some games allow being able to privatize market/auction transaction to people or person of your choosing without affecting the value/price. I could see this being a thing.

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Posted

This happened in TERA.  So many people don't realize energy and player-trade limitations are actually good for the game's economy, because they only look at it from the perspective of "I want to give my friends stuff to help them."  Enabling trade has far more implications than just letting you gear up your friend.  It's not about what would be best for you individually, but what's best for the game overall.

The problem in removing trade has less to do with the economy that's locked and near impossible to break anyway, and far more to do with making the game almost entirely single player by removing a catalyst for a plethora of multiplayer activities. 

wdywd_001.thumb.jpg.c10e4c5d490cc7e9fe01

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Posted (edited)

Or they could just do like they did potions and allow trading person to person of items but make them bound to that account once the person gets them. It would make large trading interesting I'll give you this plus 11 Yuria axe for that witches ear ring... I'll trade you this fragment for 2000 cedar logs. Heh.

Edited by trixsterjl

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I get it, but on the other hand, I'd like to help out others if I can. Like for example, my other half and I split our characters and what they are good at based on what we personally like doing. So, I love farming and fishing. I can't even make pet food for him and trade it to him. I can't make any food for him. He despises doing any of the cooking stuff, so he will have to buy off the AH, rather than me helping him out. Am I going to undercut the market because I give pet food away to one person? Seriously? To be really honest, he has very little interest in playing and we really don't play at all together, because, why? Unless I'm into griding, which I'm not, we have nothing we can do together or to help one another.

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You must be having an awful time in this game if no trading is classed as your best feature. I would have thought combat or crafting or some other big ticket feature may come before no trading but if that's what floats your boat then so be it. 

On a serious note I dislike no trading as I play mmo's to be co-operative and help people and currently I am playing selfish because currently the way it is those are my logs, my copper and my stone and no you can't have it, go and gather your own. Plus every time you group up it's like the 100m sprint to see who can loot the mobs the fastest and get the good stuff.

Personally I do not mind having trading and helping someone out with logs or x particular item to help them build or craft but as I have seen from other comments a few people seem to get there knickers in a twist over people wanting to help others out. 

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IActually it's the exact opposite, big guilds monopoly the market because everything we buy or sell on the market lines their pockets with enough money to buy out anything and everything on the market without ever touching life skills or farming anything. 

 

If this was true, my small guild of 14 people wouldn't have 5 of the top 10 Processors on my channel, the top Alch, and 5 people commonly on the top 30 for Wealth. Being good at the economy of BDO doesn't happen with numbers, it happens with dedication and patience - and participating. Which is something you do on your own, the same way you level.

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Posted (edited)

The problem in removing trade has less to do with the economy that's locked and near impossible to break anyway, and far more to do with making the game almost entirely single player by removing a catalyst for a plethora of multiplayer activities. 

I guess I don't really see how trade is a catalyst for multiplayer play, besides gearing a friend so that they can play on your level.  I mean, based on your comic, would it really be all that exciting if it just said 'let's trade' at the bottom?  Trading itself is not that exciting, you put some items in a window, hit accept, boom done.  Most trades take what, 30 seconds, 2 minutes tops?  I'm just not sold on the argument that trade is a catalyst, or even could be considered an 'activity' (because it takes such a minimal amount of time..)

Edited by Anemone
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Hello there! Why another thread on this topic? I'm hoping to lay out all the reasoning behind the no-trade rules, and also explain why they are amazing in one easily referenced thread. If I succeed, I'm hoping this can be the thread you link newbies when they ask why they can't give apples to their friend or pool 900 rough stone during a guild quest to make the 90 polished stones. Before I begin, though, I'm going to explain some basic mechanics that I'm sure many of you already know - bear with me, I'm hoping this will be a post for new players who don't fully understand how these things work, but read "no trading" and figure "ugh, pass".

Basics 

Energy regen rate is 1 point every 3 minutes logged in, 2 points every 3 minutes on a player-made bed, and 3 points every 3 minutes on an MTX bed. It's less important to know the rates but more important as the key takeaway that energy is limited based on time and it's a tool that developers can use to control how much of anything valuable enters the game. This is critical. This means that a person with 24 hours a day to play and a huge energy pool still has a limit on what they can achieve. 

On to the meat!

There are three different types of goods in BDO, which I'll separate into categories for reference.

1) Active Acquisition Goods - These goods are obtained by either converting goods into another form via energy (Processing/Alchemy etc) or by gathering (Non-Afk Fishing/Logging/Mining etc). The thing that makes these all fit in the category and what makes them special is the fact that you have to spend energy to get them - this is key. 

2) Passive Acquisition Goods - These goods are obtained by doing stuff in the world, but they do not require energy expenditure to achieve. Examples of this are silver (since it comes from killing mobs), afk-fishing, farm drops, etc. 

3) Time Acquisition Goods - These goods are obtained by spending real time as a resource. Examples of these are anything your workers do weather it's crafting an ingot, mining copper, or processing rough stone into blackstone powder. 

Most of the time when people want to trade, their hearts are in the right place. "I have a ton of excess copper! Why can't I give 3 ingots to my friend so s/he can make a pickaxe?" Seems reasonable, however it would really hurt the trading economy for several reasons. 

There's a TLDR Version below, but for those who want the arguments to support it, read on.

Reason One - Trading Limitations keep crafting products valuable.

Most of you are probably familiar with World of Warcraft. If you aren't, you've probably played a game like it. In WoW, crafting is simply gathering resources and hitting "combine". They don't have energy so any amount can be crafted and gathered. This changes the limiting factor of the craft from energy (which is a strictly metered resource) to playtime (which is unlimited and uncontrollable by developers). As a result, the value of things change. Since players by and large have way more time than they do availability of resources to combine and crafting is usually not an intensive activity, in economies like WoW's, the actual INGREDIENTS behind crafting become more valuable than the PRODUCT. I'm sure all of you have seen this at one point or another in other games. Everyone wants to be a master blacksmith - no-one cares about the 1000's of crap armor you have to churn out to make it there. As a result, the AH is flooded with products that compete for an ever shrinking market. The ore to make the armor, however has value - that's experience. Result? Crafting becomes a level grind and not a profit margin.

Why BDO Does it better - In BDO, not being able to trade forces players into using the MB only. The huge cut means that all "Trades" using it are very lossy - lossy to the point of not being advantages usually. This is important because of several reasons - one yes, gold sellers - it's been beaten to death but people really never elaborate. It's important to realize that the fact that you can't trade items and silver really means gold sellers are super marginalized to the point of being scam artists - the're really account thieves at this point, that's all they can do. 

Not being able to trade prevents players from circumventing the energy system with extra accounts. If you think Guille suit is P2W, imagine a person with 6 accounts all logged in gaining energy at the same time, with free trading. The amount they could process would be boggling compared to you - and that's not even with active playing. Active players with extra accounts and computers to multi-box would have a tremendous economic advantage, especially with a guild behind them to supply the raw materials. 

Key Takeaway - BDO's energy system means that everyone has an equal chance to create, and the differentiating factor is what you create, and how well. No player trading ensures that this stays true.

Reason Two - Trading Limitations make selling products fair and accessable to everyone.

In free-trade economies, items value fluctuates based on how hard they are to get but also how hard they are to buy. Depending on who you know, you might be able to buy silver ore or interceptor blueprints. Or, maybe you can't. There is an entire social meta game of knowing people, networking, and figuring out how to get stuff. The best goods and prices are almost never sold on the Auction House. Trying to find the trade history of an "Over the Counter" (OTC) trade relies on here say and google. You don't have any record of transactions, and depending on the game you might not even get what you paid for. Some trades were inherently dangerous to engage in. Even BDO has this problem with "Oh yeah I'll definitely trade you my Rec Letter".....

Secondarily, the Marketboard ensures that the price is within bounds for what it's actually worth. This helps both new players figure out value, and also ensures that people can't circumvent the economy by giving each other items of huge value. When this occurs, the cost advantage to the producer becomes extreme. As an example, lets say you're trying to make an item that requires gem polisher. If you aren't an alchemist, you need to buy that from the MB. If you could just get it from your friend who is an Alch, this removes the cost basis for you. 

If Gem Polisher would cost you 200k, and you can sell for 600k, after the 200k or so taxes you have a profit of 200k. This is good. But, if you can get the gem polisher for free, you make another 200k. This is better. More importantly, with free trading you can now discount the item to 400k and make the same profit. Now, only people who can either produce Gem Polisher themselves or know someone who can give them some are able to make this item for profit, as everyone else will lose money on the transaction.

This exacerbates because remember you can bypass energy limitations by having alt accounts (not alt characters, but full accounts) that you trade with to keep the process pipeline going. So, big guilds with lots of real life money can set prices so low that only they can afford to be sellers.

Why BDO Does it better - The lack of player to player trading removes the secondary market from BDO. This means that you don't have to know who makes a thing, or be friends with the one guy who can craft Yuria. All buyers and sellers are perfectly equal and the only thing that drives market value is the market itself. This means that every player can compete in the market fairly with the only thing that should matter - their products and the laws of supply and demand. There are no cartels, no secret trade groups, no discounts. You can't get shut out of production or blacklisted as a seller. There are no scams - you always get what you pay for, at the price you expect. Everyone takes this for granted, but there is no risk of any goods not being delivered or received in BDO - that's some serious market confidence. 

You can also have confidence that if something has sold, there's a record. You don't need to wonder if someone is hoarding copper - you can see it disappear from the MB. You don't have to know Bob to buy your Yuria, it's just up on there (or do the convo mini game with the guy in Calph, but I digress...)

Reason Three - No trading equalizes the little guy from the huge guild.

You've played the game where you start out, excited to try your hand and something big. Maybe you'll be a ship builder in Eve, or maybe you wanted to be a weapon crafter in WoW. Whatever it was - you had a dream. After a while the dream died because you realized that you needed something that only was available to a small elite - an elite that was part of a huge guild. You aren't in that guild - maybe you suck at the combat of the game and can't get invited, maybe you are anti social. Or maybe you just don't want to be part of a huge group and would rather roll with your friends. But the dream dies here - unless you can get an in somehow.

Why BDO Does it better - Big guilds can achieve great things in BDO - but they are more combat driven. Generally speaking, it's not possible for big guilds to affect the economy to the degree that they would if everyone could give their stuff to Bob for processing. 

All the housing is there for you without having to compete, all the workers can be hired and promoted. All the gathering can be yours - you can get just as much energy as you work for, and the proceeds from your sale will be yours. There is no being shut out of the economy - there is no "first come first serve". Even late comers to the BDO economy can get their piece, because the economy is purely controlled by how much effort you personally put in vs how much you want to get out.

All Time Acquisition goods, once you've unlocked the node, are within standard deviations easy to collect. As the market matures, some will be more valuable than others (Bloody Tree Knot anyone) for a time, but eventually will equalize. The bottleneck is how much energy you are willing to spend - and how everyone chooses to spend their energy is what makes you great in this economy. That's why it's so rewarding, and that's what will die with player to player trading. 

TLDR Version :

Players go out into the world and earn Passive Acquisition goods (like silver) which they trade for actual goods of the other two times. Since Time Acquisition goods are just based on time, they have no inherent value once the game matures as the supply will far exceed any possible demand. Active Acquisition goods are limited by strict real time units and require player input, so are the most valuable things. This keeps the objects you craft more valuable than the items used to produce them, which is how it should be and why not everyone on your server is a Master 10 Processor by now. Since every player is equally limited by energy production, every player is equally limited in how much supply they can generate per real day. This keeps the sink to faucet values in check, and the economy thrives because there isn't enough of things you want. The market adjusts prices based on real demand because all trades go through the market instead of some happening off to the side. In the end, everyone wins because BDO will have a long functioning economy that won't break open the way most every other game's does because the value of goods will be, over time, an accurate representation of how much they are actually worth. 

If anyone actually read everything and would like to discus, I'm all ears. Eyes? Whatever. I strongly feel that Black Desert is one of the most important MMO's made in the last 15 years because it's daring to do risky things that actually create an incredibly addictive and intense experience for the players it's meant for. Adding trading to this game would crush the economy in ways that it could never recover from, and I'm desperate to not have it ruined after so many years of waiting for a game to even try to create a great resourcing economy. I totally applaud Daum for taking a hard-line stance on this and I'm hopeful that as players filter in posts like mine can help them understand why it's so good and different. All new things take some time to adjust to, this is no exception.

I would have posted sooner but I'm so busy usually playing the game that I don't read or post here much.

Thanks for reading.

This

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Another way they could allow players to help one another in a manner that isn't player-to-player trading but that is still feasible, is to allow players to add items to a guild storage where players can apply for certain items they need and officers can review the application and accept/deny accordingly. These items could be gears or resources. Once the item is removed from guild storage to the player that applied, the item could become bound.

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I guess I don't really see how trade is a catalyst for multiplayer play, besides gearing a friend so that they can play on your level.  I mean, based on your comic, would it really be all that exciting if it just said 'let's trade' at the bottom?  Trading itself is not that exciting, you put some items in a window, hit accept, boom done.  Most trades take what, 30 seconds, 2 minutes tops?  I'm just not sold on the argument that not having trade means you can't do other multiplayer activities.

Trading definitly is nothing magical, but being able to work together on a project is. If i want to focus on woodworking while a friend focus on the ingots and we meet in the middle, we can achieve our goal by working together. 

Without trade, your limited to doing everything yourself with the exception of fighting. 

Now i dont disagree as to why theres no 1:1 trade on bdo, its a choice and both side have their pro and cons, but i personally dislike how i cannot work with my guildmates to achieve anything other than doing mostly boring missions to put funds in guild funds or killing bosses. 

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Posted (edited)

Trading definitly is nothing magical, but being able to work together on a project is. If i want to focus on woodworking while a friend focus on the ingots and we meet in the middle, we can achieve our goal by working together.

Yeah, I thought about that...  I don't think completely opening player-trade is the answer, but maybe players could trade within guilds or form trade alliances. 

Edited by Anemone
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Another way they could allow players to help one another in a manner that isn't player-to-player trading but that is still feasible, is to allow players to add items to a guild storage where players can apply for certain items they need and officers can review the application and accept/deny accordingly. These items could be gears or resources. Once the item is removed from guild storage to the player that applied, the item could become bound.

Why?!?! Why should I HAVE to be in a guild where it's high pressure to keep yourself up to date on armor and skills and what not for end game sieging? That's not why I play. I have no issue with the Open World PVP, and I'm a CareBear, but I really really do NOT want to join a guild and feel that guild pressure when I play. But to do some form of "trade" by your suggestion, I'd have to join a guild. 

The whole point of "no player trading" was to keep gold spammers out. Well, guess what, that didn't work. I'm happy with the capped prices, but here's a thing: my other half doesn't play as much, so it would be great if I could help him gather his resources for a fishing boat. Or if we could spend an evening gather resources for my cooking and he helps me and gives me the items. That is cooperative play and why trading would be helpful. 

Just don't tell me I should have to join a guild, because the idea of a non theme park is to let people play how they want. Killing trade to kill spammers (which is a failure) is just killing a way for people to play.

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Farming is my favourite thing to do in this game. When I learned about it, playing an MMO where I could spend time farming was a dream come true.

But what am I supposed to do with my crops? Sell them to an NPC? Give them to an NPC who sells them to other PCs for me? That just doesn't feel like an MMO. It may seem like a negligible difference, but having the option of actually interacting with other players to sell my crops makes the game feel much more engaging to me.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, I thought about that...  I don't think completely opening player-trade is the answer, but maybe players could trade within guilds or form trade alliances. 

Form trade routes between players. Player A needs X resource that players B/C/D have a lot of. Player A could put in a request on a Trade Board with the amount of silver being paid for said items and players can assign trade caravans/carts, after which the money they earned will be deposited into their inventory or storage. The items you've purchased via player trade routes will become bound to your account/character.

This could also apply to items as well. It would still be immersive but still allow trading in a way that would still discourage gold sellers.

Edited by Laliat
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Why?!?! Why should I HAVE to be in a guild where it's high pressure to keep yourself up to date on armor and skills and what not for end game sieging? That's not why I play. I have no issue with the Open World PVP, and I'm a CareBear, but I really really do NOT want to join a guild and feel that guild pressure when I play. But to do some form of "trade" by your suggestion, I'd have to join a guild. 

The whole point of "no player trading" was to keep gold spammers out. Well, guess what, that didn't work. I'm happy with the capped prices, but here's a thing: my other half doesn't play as much, so it would be great if I could help him gather his resources for a fishing boat. Or if we could spend an evening gather resources for my cooking and he helps me and gives me the items. That is cooperative play and why trading would be helpful. 

Just don't tell me I should have to join a guild, because the idea of a non theme park is to let people play how they want. Killing trade to kill spammers (which is a failure) is just killing a way for people to play.

You could just form your own guild with your other half ? 

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If this was true, my small guild of 14 people wouldn't have 5 of the top 10 Processors on my channel, the top Alch, and 5 people commonly on the top 30 for Wealth. Being good at the economy of BDO doesn't happen with numbers, it happens with dedication and patience - and participating. Which is something you do on your own, the same way you level.

Life skills ranks is entirely based on energy caps, that has little to do with material acquisition. i'm in the top 10 on almost all servers for cooking, I've over 1000 spare resources just piled up waiting for my energy to catch up. Owning nodes is not even out yet, so of course it's not going to affect you in the first month. When you have a guild that owns Calpheon buying every black stone on the market without ever grinding for anything, You will see what i mean. 

I guess I don't really see how trade is a catalyst for multiplayer play, besides gearing a friend so that they can play on your level.  I mean, based on your comic, would it really be all that exciting if it just said 'let's trade' at the bottom?  Trading itself is not that exciting, you put some items in a window, hit accept, boom done.  Most trades take what, 30 seconds, 2 minutes tops?  I'm just not sold on the argument that trade is a catalyst, or even could be considered an 'activity' (because it takes such a minimal amount of time..)

Yes, think about it, like i said, trade is the catalyst, not the be all end all mechanic. Trade allows for collaborative play on collaborative goals, you can for example, work together on building a boat, a wagon, or splitting your resources into helping each other specialize and swap products or materials. Another example would be a farmer and a trader working together to make money. Currently there's other players there, but outside of killing with them, or killing them, you can't actually do anything together besides sit, or walk, with a chat box. 

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Why?!?! Why should I HAVE to be in a guild where it's high pressure to keep yourself up to date on armor and skills and what not for end game sieging? That's not why I play. I have no issue with the Open World PVP, and I'm a CareBear, but I really really do NOT want to join a guild and feel that guild pressure when I play. But to do some form of "trade" by your suggestion, I'd have to join a guild. 

The whole point of "no player trading" was to keep gold spammers out. Well, guess what, that didn't work. I'm happy with the capped prices, but here's a thing: my other half doesn't play as much, so it would be great if I could help him gather his resources for a fishing boat. Or if we could spend an evening gather resources for my cooking and he helps me and gives me the items. That is cooperative play and why trading would be helpful. 

Just don't tell me I should have to join a guild, because the idea of a non theme park is to let people play how they want. Killing trade to kill spammers (which is a failure) is just killing a way for people to play.

Woah, calm down. I never said you had to be. There's really no need to get your panties in a twist over a suggestion. It could be one of many ways that players can trade with one another without actually opening player to player trade.

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I guess I don't really see how trade is a catalyst for multiplayer play, besides gearing a friend so that they can play on your level.  I mean, based on your comic, would it really be all that exciting if it just said 'let's trade' at the bottom?  Trading itself is not that exciting, you put some items in a window, hit accept, boom done.  Most trades take what, 30 seconds, 2 minutes tops?  I'm just not sold on the argument that trade is a catalyst, or even could be considered an 'activity' (because it takes such a minimal amount of time..)

Well like helping friend to built a boat together? Gather materials together? Enjoy the boat together? Oh wait, this is called " leeching", in this community.

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Well like helping friend to built a boat together? Gather materials together? Enjoy the boat together? Oh wait, this is called " leeching", in this community.

Yeah! How dare people try to play with others in an mmo!

Ludicrous! 

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Well like helping friend to built a boat together? Gather materials together? Enjoy the boat together? Oh wait, this is called " leeching", in this community.

But why is that wrong? Why is it so wrong to have a game that emphasizes self sufficiency and why is this game required to be like all other games? I don't know who all are saying this is leeching, I wouldn't phrase it that way myself. But I also don't see why those who enjoy this kind of gameplay are flamed for it either. There are other games that emphasize player trading and grouping, and those who enjoy that do so. Nothing wrong with that either.

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