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Potion Spamming: A possible solution


43 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Introduction to "Pot Spam"
The ability to spam potions on Black Desert is a salient and serious problem. Currently, all potions can be used instantly, without penalty, and with a short cooldown. This "pot spam" leads to the following problems:

  1. Fights are overextended by "pot spam". A losing player can egress from or stall a fight so they have adequate time to recover HP, and thus, survive - even though they clearly are not skilled enough to beat their opponent. 
  2. "Pot spam" requires no skill. Unlike stamina or cooldown management, no thinking is necessary to use potions. It simply requires the ability to use a potion whenever it goes on cooldown.

Other games have avoided this problem with their own compensatory factors. However, Black Desert is a unique game, and deserves an equally unique solution.



A Possible Solution

Because of the complexity of the issue - and to avoid undesirable side effects - my proposal has multiple components. Be prepared to read.

  1. Introduce a stationary animation to health potions. A player must stand still and quickly "chug" a drink to recover their HP; they cannot move or cast skills while doing so.
    • This will prevent "pot spam" in combat. A player repeatedly using potions will become vulnerable to attacks, as they will be unable to defend themselves or evade.
    • This will introduce a new tactical component to healing. A player must be able to judge when they will have an opportunity to  use a health potion, or must otherwise create that opportunity by CCing their opponent.
       
  2. Introduce a new concept: "animation cancelling" for health potions. By pressing a key (such as Shift) in addition to the normal key for a health potion, a player will be able to use a health potion in the same way they do now - without animation, and with freedom to move or cast skills.
    • Because health potions will normally require an animation, players would be unable to use potions while dazed, grabbed, or prone. However, this would affect game balance, as players would become "squishier" during CC durations (as, right now, a player can continually pot while CCed, increasing their defense). Therefore, a method to preserve this current meta is necessary.
       
  3. Introduce a stamina cost for this "animation cancelling". A player must be willing to sacrifice stamina to perform the feat of drinking a potion instantly, just like dodging and knockdown recovery.
    • Animation cancelling will preserve the current defense of players, but at a cost.
    • This will introduce a tactical component to healing. A player must manage their stamina well to preserve their ability to "animation cancel" - or "instapot" - their health.
    • A player will have more options regarding their defense. Consider the following examples:
      • A player predicts they will be stunned. They can either use their stamina to dodge it, or they can use their stamina to "instapot" after they are stunned.
      • A player gets knocked down. They can either "instapot", or see if they will be able to survive the combo to preserve stamina.
      • A player gets knocked down. They can either "instapot", or use their stamina to recover early. 
    • The no-pot duel meta remains the same as it is now - no pots means no instapotting.
       
  4. Introduce a stationary animation to mounted health potions. The animation will be longer than non-mounted health potion usage.
    • Stamina is not used on horseback; therefore, normal "animation cancelling" will not be a viable solution. 
    • By increasing a stationary animation during mounted combat for health potions, the same problem of removing "pot spam" is resolved.
    • Instead of regular combat's double option of either animated pot recovery (high risk, low cost) or animation-cancelled pot recovery (low risk, high cost), we will have a longer duration animation (very high risk, no cost).
    • Horse acceleration and deceleration abilities and speed will become more important, as a person will need to stop quickly to use a potion during combat and accelerate quickly afterward. This promotes variety in mounted combat style and horse skill selection.
       
  5. Let potions recovering the equivalent of mana remain unaffected.
    • Mana potions don't have significant effects on the problems of overextended fights or lack of skill. 
    • Certain classes rely on mana pots more than others. Leaving mana pots unaffected means the current balance is preserved regarding those classes.
    • Mana management is an old concept, and most players are unfamiliar with it. Adding a skill component to mana management would discourage those players.
       
  6. Let foods remain unaffected.
    • These items have cooldowns too long to be considered part of the "pot spam" problem.
       

 

Conclusion

This is a highly preliminary solution. I expect flaws in my thinking, and many oversights. I also realize that this is merely theoretical - I have not attached any exact numbers, and I am not sure whether it is viable as a solution to the developers of the game. However, that is why I ask for your input. Please let me know what you think and any concerns that you have in the comments below!

Thank you!

 

(Fun fact: I was inspired by the ability of classes to use their basic attack while moving, at the cost of stamina. It occurred to me - in the shower - that this mechanic is an equally elegant solution to our "pot spam" problem.)

Edited by Absolute
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Posted

Overall, pretty good. Better than what we have now. However, you may want to address the following:

Some classes use stamina more than others. Those who use stamina less will be at an advantage; and, conversely, those who use more will be at a disadvantage.

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Posted

Some classes use stamina more than others. Those who use stamina less will be at an advantage; and, conversely, those who use more will be at a disadvantage.

Unfortunately, I'm not an expert in every single class yet! I really can't say much about this problem, but I do have a partial solution: classes could be balanced such that those who use less stamina overall would have a higher stamina cost for "instapot", and those who use more stamina overall would similarly have a lower stamina cost.

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Posted

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Posted (edited)

The issue I have with that solution is that it relies on a new form of resource management - a sort of "stomach bloatedness" gauge. I'd much rather see a solution integrated with the resource management we have right now. I also believe my proposal allows for more depth.

Edited by Absolute

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Posted

I think "chugging" potions should stack a debuff on you, decreasing the effectiveness of the potion making it less and less effective the more you use it. Or you could nerf the cooldowns of the potion to say maybe 20 sec. That way it won't effect the stamina of some classes and potions won't play a huge part in combat.

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Posted

I think "chugging" potions should stack a debuff on you, decreasing the effectiveness of the potion making it less and less effective the more you use it. Or you could nerf the cooldowns of the potion to say maybe 20 sec. That way it won't effect the stamina of some classes and potions won't play a huge part in combat.

i agree with the stack debuff, mainly cause i feel that it is a good way to not penalize people who are actually trying and accidentally fuck up/get hit

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Posted

I think "chugging" potions should stack a debuff on you, decreasing the effectiveness of the potion making it less and less effective the more you use it. Or you could nerf the cooldowns of the potion to say maybe 20 sec. That way it won't effect the stamina of some classes and potions won't play a huge part in combat.

A debuff coupled with a long cooldown. Simple yet effective. I like it.

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Posted

As a PvEr, I don't take issue with this. It's simply a Diablo 1 mechanic in that I need to have enough potions before I go grinding and that if I'm in over my head, I'll burn through said resources more quickly. This happened a few times in CBT1 and sometimes I ran away, sometimes I decided to stay and use my 100+ pots because... why else would they give you so many?

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Posted

I was thinking about pots which gives more health but have longer CD. And the healing system could also be like a universal spell (like escape), because I don't want to play the "first who run out of pots lose" game :c

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Posted (edited)

I think "chugging" potions should stack a debuff on you, decreasing the effectiveness of the potion making it less and less effective the more you use it.

This is a really good idea.

Edited by outofourlives

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Posted (edited)

How about just making the Cool down take longer each pot you Take while in combat 

Say 20 sec then 40 then  60 sec and so on makes you think about when to use them instead of spamming i'm sure this would be easy to implement

Edited by Sevrance

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Posted

1 minute cooldowns, once per fight. We all have self heals, potions should be a one time per fight only deal.

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Posted

I'm not really sold on having health and mana potions anyway. They don't really add much to the game, as the combat system is designed around having to build your technique/style around laying on damage while also using your basic attack/regen abilities. Potions are just a crutch if you fuck up, and I think it would be better for them to be effectively useless at max level. Good for learning and leveling if you fuck up.

Consider that taking them out of the picture at max level literally changes nothing about the gameplay. A fight extended because we keep pressing the increase health button isn't adding anything to the gameplay.

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Posted (edited)

I only made it to level 25 in the beta with a tamer. I don't think they have a Health regen ability? I know their basic attack regen'd mana, but that was all I seen. And outside of combat there was health regen, although it was quite slow. I think health potions is healthy to have in the game, but when it gets abused(which I see happening at max level) it needs nerfing. I found myself multiple times taking on more monsters then I can handle and I survived not because of skill, but because I had a ton of health potions. I like how Diablo did it, long cooldown, and an infinite stack.

 

As it stands you can use potions even while stunned and knocked down. That also needs to be changed.

Edited by Wazroz

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Posted

Good feedback there mate. I'd go with option nr. 1 - it'd be very immersive to see people chug pots in battle and it would also add more counterplay!

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Posted (edited)

I'm not really sold on having health and mana potions anyway. They don't really add much to the game, as the combat system is designed around having to build your technique/style around laying on damage while also using your basic attack/regen abilities. Potions are just a crutch if you fuck up, and I think it would be better for them to be effectively useless at max level. Good for learning and leveling if you fuck up.

Consider that taking them out of the picture at max level literally changes nothing about the gameplay. A fight extended because we keep pressing the increase health button isn't adding anything to the gameplay.

pretty much this. if you want to healing to be a meaningful mechanic in the game, make a healer class instead so you promote grouping instead of everyone buying 200 mandatory HP/MP pots everywhere they go.

i would say the same for mana but at least classes already have ways to restore it without chugging mana potions anyway. i think mana should be a resource like anything else and managing it should be another mechanics that adds depth to the combat. why completely throw it out of the window by letting everyone negate any mana costs with potions?

my suggestion would be to just increase the reuse time that it's not feasible to use it during combat, like full restore every 2/3/5 minutes. everyone is complaining that grinding is already too easy and of course it is if you can't ever die because any hit is instantly healed by a healing potion and you can spam all the skills you want and recharge your mana with mana potions.

and needless to say, PvP shouldn't be lost because you ran out of potions.

 

Edited by autofishing

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Posted

As a KOL player who used to stack a couple hundred pots and go out to grind and go to war, I like having this back in another game. I like being able to pull 20 mobs and grind em down in a big ass pile, or have parties who pull 50-60 mobs and aoe them down; and I like the fact that when you have a vanguard of melee characters approaching 100 rangers and wizards defending a choke point, you can close the distance, storm the point and not just be food in war

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Posted (edited)

So did no one actually read his post to understand the suggestion? So far it's just 10 people offering their own ideas. This is literally becoming a clone of the hundred discussions that preceded it.

Edited by Crit

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Posted

So did no one actually read his post to understand the suggestion? So far it's just 10 people offering their own ideas. This is literally becoming a clone of the hundred discussions that preceded it.

ty

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Posted (edited)

Bumping this thread as it's actually a thoughtful and elegant solution; every other opinion (which shouldn't be in this guy's thread anyways) boils down to one of two things: increasing pot cooldown or introducing a pot debuff

The first alternative offered, a pot cooldown, doesn't actually fundamentally change the way pots work. NA CBT already has increased cooldowns on potions compared to Korean. Increasing potion cooldown doesn't change the way potions function; it simply makes lower tier potions no longer cost-effective to spam over stronger potions. Heal per sec goes down but the mechanism remains a one click heal.

The second alternative simply forces a manual micromanagement with effect equivalent to the first alternative. Waiting out heal penalties means waiting longer to use a potion but it functionally doesn't differ from just giving the potions longer cooldown (and is a more difficult change developmentally)

On the other hand, giving health potions an animation makes a fundamental, mechanistic change to the way the game is actually played. The halting animation of an un-canceled potion intake forces a player to stop what he's doing. If he is dpsing his dps drops accordingly. If he is running the pursuer gains 1 second of ground (a lot, once we get T14 horses). If he is doing a skill combo he now has to start over (if no hard CD in combo). Thus we can say this punishes "pot spam" which we shall define as low-skill.

An important precept of good game design is that skill should be rewarded. In Black Desert there exists a high degree of mechanical ability (in the pressing out of advanced key combos, which apparently 90% of the BnS nerds haven't figured out don't exist till 40-50 + 300-400 SP). Let us define all combos/repetitive combos requiting 5 or more unique keys, where unique includes repeated keys with 1 or more different presses in between, as high-skill. To squeeze in a zero animation pot cancel without breaking the flow of high-skill combos, while keeping track of stamina use, can be presumed to be more advanced than basic high-skill. Thus cancellable potion animation punishes low-skill and rewards high-skill and gives greater incentive for players to go above and beyond copy pasting combos. Moreover this applies equally to pve and pvp.

Thus I demonstrate that a cancellable potion animation mechanic presents both a nerf to potion power and a significant additional advantage to skilled, inventive and thoughtful players.

 

P.S. NA CBT1 meta player damage is severely nerfed by the lack of weapon blackstones. No one even had the dps to outdmg mobs, but KR endgame rangers can burst warriors/valks through shield so gghfnore if you want pots entirely nerfed

1v1 in arenas should always be no HP pot anyways

Edited by Walpurga

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Posted (edited)

I agree with most of what people are saying. Anything less than a 30s cool-down is potion chugging. 5s is just ridiculous. I would be satisfied with 20s.

I don't like mandatory pauses in the middle of a fight though. I would rather potions be 100% when the player pauses and only 50% effective when they chug on the move.  

Weight is a consideration in end-game and conquest (node captures). High end potions are heavy. I don't think the guild who sneaks behind enemy lines to kill the donkeys and horses should always be the victor.

Edited by oR-Bishop

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Posted (edited)

Issues with "PvP" *cough PKing cough* testing on the CBT1

A level 55 player should have about ~2400HP.

If you have a full set of +16 weapons and +16 armor, and you attack a 55 player with a full set of +15 armor, you should effectively hit them for 75% damage.

Effectively doing 1800 dmg per second.

But that's ok, I'll chug my 500hp pot once every 5 seconds, that'll let me survive that 3600 damage in 2 seconds... Ohh wait, it won't. You already Won the Pot war, it's over, you got your pot nerf, it happened. They haven't balanced the PvE content against the Pot Nerf yet, you know the only content that gives you actual EXP.

Daum announced they made a mistake with skill points, the skill points were gimped by accident when they gimped the experience level, so you effectively had half the skill points you were meant to on the actual CBT1 not the KR version you effectively had 1/4 of the KR version. You know the damage model of the actual game. Now other then that you started PKing people at 30, don't waste your time saying it was PvP we know it wasn't. Or you'd be calling out people for Pot chugging in duels.

You were meant to start PKing people at 50+ with your +10 to all gear. Your higher level skills, and at least double the skill level in all of your current skills, did you notice that when you actually put a level in a skill it's % dmg increased and even the amount of hits increased?

+1 hit on a 250% dmg skill is a 250% increase in damage. You legitimately just went out there with a NERF bat (the yellow foam rubber ones) and smacked on people wearing NERF Suits you know the foamy spongy fat suits, and they said you hit like a limp wristed ***** and drank some cool aid laughing at you while dancing around in circles. That wasn't PvP that wasn't BDO, that was bad teens birthday party, with a $100 entry fee.

@Absolute Post Tamer nerfs, pre Tamer nerfs that stop people playing tamers, and obviously not Tamer master race they kill another tamer in 2 skills.

Edited by Akukiyo
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Posted (edited)

sorry man but I don't see this working in bdo.

So you are basically fucked when more than 2 people attack you on a possibly 50v50 guild siege when you have to stand still to heal ?

 

Or if a warrior fights a ranger, she will get the first hit 9/10 times how am I supposed to kill her when I will always be the one getting hit first ? That's a major disadvantage.

I need to keep my shield up as a warrior and heal, I have to constantly dash and stab and heal at the same time because I won't be able to kill some classes otherwise.

Want me to stand still and let her(ranger) do a combo on me? She could cancel the animation too as you said.

 

You wont see any potion spam later on, trust me the potions will be so weak.

 

A big -1, I would give you a + if potion spam really was an issue later on.

Remember that this game is known for its large scale GvG battles, you have to take everything to account not only 1v1.

You have to also remember that the class balance revolves around the potions too.

Edited by LoneWolf
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Posted (edited)

Interesting ideas, the first one kinda reminds me of Dark Souls haha. 

Edited by Kurisu

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