• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

Gm response on Macros/Is it fair?

267 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I had a conversation with a GM through email about their stance on macros as the TOS was rather vague, here's what was said.

me: Is a macro that preforms a single ability considered a simple macro?

GM Rhotaaz: It depends what it does. What are you trying to macro?

me: The combo to preform skill X is (Shift+S+lmb); would it be ok to macro a single key to preform (Shift+S+lmb)?

Gm Rhotaaz: That's okay. It wouldn't violate the terms of service. :)

For those of you that don't know, using a skill via your skill bar greatly reduces the power of that skill as a form of punishment for not being able to preform that ability via the combo system. However with the use of macros you can macro the combo to a single key bypassing the punishment and leave out any errors that might be made while preforming a combo. It also gives people with easily tweakable keyboards such as the Razer Chroma  an unfair advantage over those who cannot efficiently macro. 

 

Side note: I tested a few macros in beta and they work like a charm.

 

well i can't agree with that, using your example macro is unfair.

So there is two options for me, either this conversation is a fake or i'm sorry but this Gm Rhotaaz doesn't know the game and don't know what he is saying.

If this is true, why do we got a combo system with punishement(mana cost increase and no possible combo with other speel) if we use it in quick slot ? it's make no sense to create this kind of system if we are allow to bypass it with macro. So much delete it and just use quick slot ...

@CM_Jouska can you confirm it please ? Is it true or false ?

Edited by Grimbergen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

O.o how can i get 20 key-binds instead of the normal 10?

Where did you get this information? What about skills that can only be used via the skill bar?

If this is true i need to reevaluate my setup. 

It's pretty common knowledge that skill are more expensive when used through quickslots. I think it explains it in-game during a tutorial quest.

It bothers me that macros do not violate the TOS. I mean, I would love to have a macro for filling up water bottles when I'm doing alchemy. (I mean srsly? 20s to dunk a bottle in the river?) I guess my question would be how macros interact with movement. Considering that many skill combos are tied to movement keys, would you be able to activate a W+F macro while holding down the S key? Valkyrie example, I'f I'm backing up and I try to go into block, I perform a shield throw instead. 

Edited by C0pp3rhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I don't want to C no mans Stick... Keep it in your pants buddy!

sorry I don't play with people that just hit 100 post

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Marcos are for people w/o skill. It's like the C stick in super smash brothers

you realize that's literally the opposite of what it is lol. The hotbar is the c-stick. you 1 click and it does a mediocre version of the skill. Macros would be like having a custom c stick that did the actual smashes at max power every time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

you realize that's literally the opposite of what it is lol. The hotbar is the c-stick. you 1 click and it does a mediocre version of the skill. Macros would be like having a custom c stick that did the actual smashes at max power every time

debatable  keep in mind certain toons ie Marth fox and the other S classes don't really need that charge to ruin your day

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

debatable  keep in mind certain toons ie Marth fox and the other S classes don't really need that charge to ruin your day

You also mostly using aerials and forward smash with Marth so it's not really relevant to your argument in either case :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

You also mostly using aerials and forward smash with Marth so it's not really relevant to your argument in either case :P

ye bit C stick edge camping is a thing or just the bm 70% fox up A which people use hur dur C to do

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

12.1.3. Use of unauthorized programs

The User shall not attempt to modify the gameplay of the Game by using:

  • Software or sets of instructions (including macros) allowing the automated operation of controls in the Game;  

 

I am not seeing how this is 'vague' Regardless of what the GM said.

We need some clarification/confirmation here from @CM_Jouska

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

We need some clarification/confirmation here from @CM_Jouska

This was obvious one month ago, it is still obvious now.

Macros aren't allowed nor is anything allowed that does multiple tasks by just pressing a single button. The only thing you're allowed to do is remapping a single key to a different key as this is also what the game does, except that the game doesn't know every single hardware or software that is on the market.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

You don't need a macro for that, as you can create custom circular paths and then use the auto-path function (t). That is how people train their strength/horses usually. I am not sure this is already present in our version though.

Yeah, I tried the Alt-circular path green thing in NA CBT1 and it didn't work =/

There's a lot of debate on this forum about implementing it or not... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

This was obvious one month ago, it is still obvious now.

Macros aren't allowed nor is anything allowed that does multiple tasks by just pressing a single button. The only thing you're allowed to do is remapping a single key to a different key as this is also what the game does, except that the game doesn't know every single hardware or software that is on the market.

 

Yes,

but that said, how can they truly enforce that? Most gaming keyboards come with macro keys and the official drivers have macro mapping features. They can't kick&ban players for having, lets say, Logitech Gaming Software (Driver platform for every logitech gaming gear), running in the background :o .

Edited by BurningBern

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

well i can't agree with that, using your example macro is unfair.

So there is two options for me, either this conversation is a fake or i'm sorry but this Gm Rhotaaz doesn't know the game and don't know what he is saying.

If this is true, why do we got a combo system with punishement(mana cost increase and no possible combo with other speel) if we use it in quick slot ? it's make no sense to create this kind of system if we are allow to bypass it with macro. So much delete it and just use quick slot ...

@CM_Jouska can you confirm it please ? Is it true or false ?

 

We need some clarification/confirmation here from @CM_Jouska

The freedom to use macros is still under review, and at the time this was originally posted it was largely undecided.  The final ruling will be made prior to launch, but for the time being the only permissible macros are the ones you can create in game via the macro system accessible by clicking the M button next to the chat entry box.  We are aware of the need some players have to be able to rebind various keys that can be accomplished via macro programs, in this case it may be permitted to have single keystroke macros.  What I mean by this is you could set your G1 Macro key to act as if you had hit W one time.  I know this does not answer the question fully, but once the final call is made there will be an update.

Edited by CM_Jouska
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

 

The freedom to use macros is still under review, and at the time this was originally posted it was largely undecided.  The final ruling will be made prior to launch, but for the time being the only permissible macros are the ones you can create in game via the macro system accessible by clicking the M button next to the chat entry box.  We are aware of the need some players have to be able to rebind various keys that can be accomplished via macro programs, in this case it may be permitted to have single keystroke macros.  What I mean by this is you could set you G1 Macro key to act as if you had hit W one time.  I know this does not answer the question fully, but once the final call is made there will be an update.

Just my 2 cents. But in today's world with the technology that is widely available, I think we should embrace the technology that we have.

Using the macros that come with your keyboard shouldn't be a big deal just to do some button combination.

Using a third party program to completely automate activities such as farming mobs or stuff like that, i.e. botting shouldn't be allowed.

If people think that using a single skill combo macro is going to make them better at PvP, I think it's a crutch but I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be allowed.

In the end I don't think there should be a blanket ban on general keyboard macros though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

In the end I don't think there should be a blanket ban on general keyboard macros though. 

The design of the game is such that some skills can't be used via the hot bar. You need to execute the key commands properly to pull of the move. Very much like action/fighting games common in the arcades or *gasp* consoles.

Macros would negate the need to do these moves correctly. If you can't pull of the move properly, you shouldn't be able to use it. Skills right? While macros may be a crutch, using them could put you an advantage and also allow some people to pull off moves they otherwise couldn't. Whether we need to account for all types of players is a different discussion. 

I use a nostromo pad, but no macros. I totally get people need to rebind keys. Not a supporter of macros though.

Edited by Luciferia
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The design of the game is such that some skills can't be used via the hot bar. You need to execute the key commands properly to pull of the move. Very much like action/fighting games common in the arcades or *gasp* consoles.

Macros would negate the need to do these moves correctly. I certainly see macro use a crutch, but doesn't mean it's always a disadvantage.

In my opinions macros in that case would make bad players okay, okay players good, but it wouldn't make good players great or great players amazing.

Someone who is doing PvP at the highest level and knows all their combos by muscle memory is most likely (equal gear) going to beat out a player that uses macros for combos

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

In my opinions macros in that case would make bad players okay, okay players good, but it wouldn't make good players great or great players amazing.

Someone who is doing PvP at the highest level and knows all their combos by muscle memory is most likely (equal gear) going to beat out a player that uses macros for combos

I just say no to macros. Rebind sure. No to any automation. While a macro may not seem like much, its a step toward automation. I say stop before it gets started.

But I know we already have automated in game tools, not for combat per-say but they can't be ignored.

 

Edited by Luciferia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Did you ask the GM this because you were genuinely interested in using macros yourself or because you wanted some fuel to add to these forums?

 

Macros to perform in game functions just for the sake of efficiency and because you want to be lazy should be allowed, people tend to fear the word macro because they think of botting. 

The difference between botting and simply macroing something for convenience is blatantly obvious. Banning someone for a simple harmless macro and putting them on the same level as a botter is plain ignorance.

Don't be another Trion and kill your game like they did that week they banned thousands of "hackers and botters" and then admitted to being too harsh(and admitting a lot of false positives) and trying to get those players back when it was already too late

Edited by Dank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

So we're going to punish the people who spent money on these macro keyboard and mice? That's kind of messed up. I think it should be fine as long as they're not using it to make it play the game for them while they're not present at the screen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Just my 2 cents. But in today's world with the technology that is widely available, I think we should embrace the technology that we have.

Using the macros that come with your keyboard shouldn't be a big deal just to do some button combination.

Using a third party program to completely automate activities such as farming mobs or stuff like that, i.e. botting shouldn't be allowed.

If people think that using a single skill combo macro is going to make them better at PvP, I think it's a crutch but I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be allowed.

In the end I don't think there should be a blanket ban on general keyboard macros though. 

well i agree but not for bdo,

no offense but i think you never play the game and you don't see yet the advantage.

The design of the game is such that some skills can't be used via the hot bar. You need to execute the key commands properly to pull of the move. Very much like action/fighting games common in the arcades or *gasp* consoles.

Macros would negate the need to do these moves correctly. If you can't pull of the move properly, you shouldn't be able to use it. Skills right? While macros may be a crutch, using them could put you an advantage and also allow some people to pull off moves they otherwise couldn't. Whether we need to account for all types of players is a different discussion. 

I use a nostromo pad, but no macros. I totally get people need to rebind keys. Not a supporter of macros though.

he is right

Edited by Grimbergen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

So we're going to punish the people who spent money on these macro keyboard and mice? That's kind of messed up. 

Not really. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it's supported or the proper way to go about things. Really your buying habits have nothing to do with the game.

The hardware/software themselves are not a problem. It is how they are used.

ALso I don't really expect the company to bother the vast majority of people with macros. But they have to lay down some simple and easy to understand rules. They won't hunt down people to see what they are doing. But they do need to state what they allow and dont.

Edited by Luciferia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

There's a thin line between macros and cheating. Probably one of the deciding factors about allowing macros is the ability to even k ow they are being used. In more complex automated systems like botting/gold farming, extended durations of the programmed repetitive function occur much more often and with greater predictable regularity than a macro usage, so they are much easier to detect.

For instance, how do you tell the difference between someone who pushed LMB+shift+w legitimately and someone who just had that button combination mapped to a macro function? It's virtually impossible, especially if they are using different combinations of macros every time. Even if they try and ban macros, it would be an impossible rule to enforce.

I have an MMO keypad and a mouse with ten buttons. Every button and key can be programmed with a Seperate macro. Just face it and deal with it, those people who are equipped with real life hardware are going to have a massive advantage over some regular player with a normal keyboard and mouse.

Youll be hard at work trying to execute difficult combo after difficult combo with the exact right time timing, struggling with the skill involved, while all of have to do is press three buttons to accomplish the same thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

No macros please

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

For instance, how do you tell the difference between someone who pushed LMB+shift+w legitimately and someone who just had that button combination mapped to a macro function? It's virtually impossible, especially if they are using different combinations of macros every time.

 My concern is the logical next step, which is if one person can set up 3 keys in a macro and that is allowed. Why can't I change 3 keys in a sequence. And automate skill chains. Both might be 3 keys total...

Totally agree though, they can't detect simple stuff like that. But if they say it is allowed, it starts to circumvent parts of game design. Also people may feel obligated to make such macros to stay above the curve :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

 My concern is the logical next step, which is if one person can set up 3 keys in a macro and that is allowed. Why can't I change 3 keys in a sequence. And automate skill chains. Both might be 3 keys total...

Totally agree though, they can't detect simple stuff like that. But if they say it is allowed, it starts to circumvent parts of game design. Also people may feel obligated to make such macros to stay above the curve :(

just so you know, programming in successive key tap combos into a macro isn't always easy. There is an output to input to response lag time depending on your ping time, server speed, your net connect, and surrounding players blocking up the system. So there is a sweet spot to hit when programming in key tap and release delays for auto combo programming. I've gotten a twenty stroke combo pattern to work in BDO once and only once. If you are going to macro I suggest binding at most only one move to each key. 

Although the block->CC-->throw-->barrage of three crit strikes in quick succession macro is devastating when used in an a wary opponent. One key bind replacing dozens of successive key presses... However, such a long macro is glitchy and sometimes just doesn't work at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

well i agree but not for bdo,

no offense but i think you never play the game and you don't see yet the advantage.

he is right

I've actually extensively played the game so you can't say my opinion is wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites