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4Grunil or 2Grunil/2Heve?

19 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Hi guys,

I want to start this discussion saying to keep it constructive and to try to don't attack eachother, and only to share your opinion if this is possible :)

My question is simple...

Right know I've this current Setup:

Weapon: Yuria Bow + 15/Bronze Dagger + 15

Accessories: x2 Mark of Shadow (Ring)/x2 Witch Earring (Earring)/Spirit Tree Belt/Scarla Necklace

Armor: Gloves of Heve + 13/Helm of Heve +11/Grunil Armor +10/Grunil Shoes +10

For a total of 103AP and 120DP.

 

For some research that I made (That can be wrong or right, but this is not the focus of the Thread), with Yuria Bow +15 and Bronze Dagger +15 I reach NEARLY 35Accuracy that is a sort of softcap for hitting people 85% of the time if the Target have 150 or more DP (Standing on this Tab https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eutf7mHriZqE5mbVQfCdZ1uBHMD4KsUaBPHi3dJTs5k/edit that as I said could be wrong, and is NOT the center of the topic).

 

So for now I will stick to Bronze Dagger, so here my question:

Are the 250hp of the 2-Pieces Heve Set worth the Slot that can be use for other 2 Pieces Grunil?

I will explain better... Right know, I have 103AP and 400HP Bonus from Grunil and Heve... If I upgrade the Grunil i can get 4 more AP making it Grunil of Destruction... So I will be at 107AP and 400HP Bonus...

If I go 4-Pieces Grunil I will add 7AP for the 2-Pieces Set Bonus and the 4-Pieces Set Bonus, and making the other two pieces Grunil of Destruction I will gain a total of 11AP more...

So I will have 118AP with 150HP Bonus...

 

So in your opinion which is better? 107AP with 400HP Bonus or 118HP with 150HP Bonus?

Does the HP Damage Scaling on some Skills worth so much?

Does 250HP worth more than 11AP?

 

In all the Guides I read everybody suggest to get 100% the 400HP from the Bonuses of both Sets that these HP Bonus are vital, but I want your opinion.

 

Edited by Harvi

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Posted

Hi guys,

I want to start this discussion saying to keep it constructive and to try to don't attack eachother, and only to share your opinion if this is possible :)

My question is simple...

Right know I've this current Setup:

Weapon: Yuria Bow + 15/Bronze Dagger + 15

Accessories: x2 Mark of Shadow (Ring)/x2 Witch Earring (Earring)/Spirit Tree Belt/Scarla Necklace

Armor: Gloves of Heve + 13/Helm of Heve +11/Grunil Armor +10/Grunil Shoes +10

For a total of 103AP and 115DP.

 

For some research that I made (That can be wrong or right, but this is not the focus of the Thread), with Yuria Bow +15 and Bronze Dagger +15 I reach NEARLY 35Accuracy that is a sort of softcap for hitting people 85% of the time if the Target have 150 or more DP (Standing on this Tab https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eutf7mHriZqE5mbVQfCdZ1uBHMD4KsUaBPHi3dJTs5k/ that as I said could be wrong, and is NOT the center of the topic).

 

So for now I will stick to Bronze Dagger, so here my question:

Are the 250hp of the 2-Pieces Heve Set worth the Slot that can be use for other 2 Pieces Grunil?

I will explain better... Right know, I have 103AP and 400HP Bonus from Grunil and Heve... If I upgrade the Grunil i can get 4 more AP making it Grunil of Destruction... So I will be at 107AP and 400HP Bonus...

If I go 4-Pieces Grunil I will add 7AP for the 2-Pieces Set Bonus and the 4-Pieces Set Bonus, and making the other two pieces Grunil of Destruction I will gain a total of 11AP more...

So I will have 118AP with 150HP Bonus...

 

So in your opinion which is better? 107AP with 400HP Bonus or 118HP with 150HP Bonus (And a bit more DP gived by the Grunil Upgraded)?

Does the HP Scaling on some Skills worth so much?

Does 250HP worth more than 11AP and a bit of DP? (Cause when you Upgrade the Grunil-Set you also gain a bit more of DP, and you can't upgrade the Heve-Set).

 

In all the Guides I read everybody suggest to get 100% the 400HP from the Bonuses of both Sets that these HP Bonus are vital, but I want your opinion.

 

Grunil of Destruction? As far as I know, there are only damage reducing upgrades (Iron Wall, Agility, and Intimidation). If you were able to upgrade Grunil to get 11 or 15 more AP, that'd be huge and I doubt there would even be a debate on Heve vs. Grunil. 

If upgrading Grunil does increase the AP, please correct me. I'd love to know. 

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Posted (edited)

http://bddatabase.net/us/item/10954/ I found it a while ago, anyway I don't searched it in Game... But it could not be implemented in our version or not even really exist...

And anyway you can only get +8 AP for all the 4-Pieces Upgraded with the "of Destruction"-Upgrade...

The other 7 AP will come from the 2-Pieces Bonus and the 4-Pieces Bonus.

 

Anyway, if that's not an option... If you get all 4 Grunil Pieces at Ultimate Grunil, you gain 5DP/2Damage Reduction for every piece, for a total of 20DP and 8 Damage Reduction.

 

So Anyway, with the full Set Grunil you will gain:

150HP, 20DP, 8 Damage Reduction and 7AP.

Instead with the 2Grunil/2Heve you will get:

400HP, 10DP, 4Damage Reduction

 

So the question still the same... Which is better in your opinion?

Edited by Harvi

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Posted (edited)

I think that "of Destruction" is a bug. It's not even listed among the "requirements" at the bottom, contrary to all the other blue pieces.

 

(if it was my document that you linked in the first post, the link is broken, fyi).

Edited by hihey54

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Posted (edited)

I think that "of Destruction" is a bug. It's not even listed among the "requirements" at the bottom, contrary to all the other blue pieces.

 

(if it was my document that you linked in the first post, the link is broken, fyi).

Yeah, I think so too now...
 

Anyway what do you think about that?

With the 4-Pieces Ultimate Grunil Set you will gain:

150HP, 20DP, 8 Damage Reduction and 7AP.

Instead with the 2Ultimate Grunil/2Heve you will get:

400HP, 10DP, 4Damage Reduction

 

Which is better in your opinion?

 

(Fixed the link, thank you :D )

Edited by Harvi

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Posted

Yeah, I think so too now...
 

Anyway what do you think about that?

With the 4-Pieces Ultimate Grunil Set you will gain:

150HP, 20DP, 8 Damage Reduction and 7AP.

Instead with the 2Ultimate Grunil/2Heve you will get:

400HP, 10DP, 4Damage Reduction

 

Which is better in your opinion?

 

(Fixed the link, thank you :D )

You neglect to mention the 2 Heve/2 Grunil option where you take Heve chest/shoes and Grunil gloves/helmet. You get 5AP and 250HP from this. It might give slightly less DP, I'm not sure, but it will give the same amount of Damage Reduction as the other 2 Heve/2Grunil option (with Grunil chest/shoes) does. 

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Posted (edited)

You neglect to mention the 2 Heve/2 Grunil option where you take Heve chest/shoes and Grunil gloves/helmet. You get 5AP and 250HP from this. It might give slightly less DP, I'm not sure, but it will give the same amount of Damage Reduction as the other 2 Heve/2Grunil option (with Grunil chest/shoes) does. 

Yeah you're right there is that option too, but it seems like a bad compromise, don't know if you feel what I'm trying to say... Is not black and not white, it doesn't optimize nothing in my opinion...

Edited by Harvi

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Posted

Yeah, I think so too now...
 

Anyway what do you think about that?

With the 4-Pieces Ultimate Grunil Set you will gain:

150HP, 20DP, 8 Damage Reduction and 7AP.

Instead with the 2Ultimate Grunil/2Heve you will get:

400HP, 10DP, 4Damage Reduction

 

Which is better in your opinion?

 

(Fixed the link, thank you :D )

My opinion is that, defensive wise, the go-to choice leans towards the (full) Grunil set. 10DP and 4 additional damage reduction are worth more than 150HP in my mind, although we still don't know how to properly determine a EHP formula. However, even assuming that 10DP and 4Damage Reduction give the same increment to your EHP as 150HP, DP will still be better because of how Potions work in this game (although you will not any difference if you get bursted heavily).

Putting the "defensive" part aside, it is still under debate whether it's better to go "flat AP" or "HP scaling". Some tests have been conducted and they showed that any AP combination of Grunil pieces will out-damage the 2Heve/2Grunil (HP version) - however, these tests are far from reliable as there are a lot of things still unknown to us.

Right now I'm still holding on on my 2Heve/2Zereth (all +10) set. It's not like I really "need" the upgrade yet. I don't get oneshotted by mobs so the DP I have (111) is fine. Plus the speed at which I clear spawns is decent as well (haven't tried Saunils yet, though) - at least for my tastes. So, all in all, it's really up to you right now. Unless you really need it because of PvP reasons, I'd actually suggest you to wait until some thorough tests have been conducted. I'd do them myself, but I don't have time to spare as of now.

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Posted

My opinion is that, defensive wise, the go-to choice leans towards the (full) Grunil set. 10DP and 4 additional damage reduction are worth more than 150HP in my mind, although we still don't know how to properly determine a EHP formula. However, even assuming that 10DP and 4Damage Reduction give the same increment to your EHP as 150HP, DP will still be better because of how Potions work in this game (although you will not any difference if you get bursted heavily).

Putting the "defensive" part aside, it is still under debate whether it's better to go "flat AP" or "HP scaling". Some tests have been conducted and they showed that any AP combination of Grunil pieces will out-damage the 2Heve/2Grunil (HP version) - however, these tests are far from reliable as there are a lot of things still unknown to us.

Right now I'm still holding on on my 2Heve/2Zereth (all +10) set. It's not like I really "need" the upgrade yet. I don't get oneshotted by mobs so the DP I have (111) is fine. Plus the speed at which I clear spawns is decent as well (haven't tried Saunils yet, though) - at least for my tastes. So, all in all, it's really up to you right now. Unless you really need it because of PvP reasons, I'd actually suggest you to wait until some thorough tests have been conducted. I'd do them myself, but I don't have time to spare as of now.

Is that only a Typo about the 150hp you lose? Because without the Heve you lose 250HP not 150HP... (Only for clarification and to know if it's the same as you said but with 250HP, not for being an ass)

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Posted

Yeah you're right there is that option too, but it seems like a bad compromise, don't know if you feel what I'm trying to say... Is not black and not white, it doesn't optimize nothing in my opinion...

If you were asking about which set is best defensively, then full Grunil definitely seems to be the way to go.

There were tests earlier this week on the forums (like hihey said) that suggested full Grunil was also the optimal set for damage, although the 2 Heve/2Grunil in which you use Grunil helm/gloves was very close. Again, I think these tests need to be completed under a variety of different circumstances to be reliable. 

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Posted (edited)

Is that only a Typo about the 150hp you lose? Because without the Heve you lose 250HP not 150HP... (Only for clarification and to know if it's the same as you said but with 250HP, not for being an ass)

Technically it was not a typo: I simply remembered wrong, My bad. My point doesn't change, though: I gave it more thought earlier today (pretty tired right now).

Edited by hihey54

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Posted (edited)

Until someone crunches the numbers, no one can really know and it's pretty much heresay. There's a faction stating infos from BDO KR, but the first tests that were made here suggest that the extra AP is better than HP for damage.

Of course, we need to see how these numbers turn out in a PvP scenario with different DP values to actually see the difference, but someone needs to set this up properly and do it.

Edited by Zerus

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Posted

Thank you everybody for the Answer, you were simply amazing :) 

For now I will bring to +15 the Grunil Pieces that I have without touching the Heve Pieces, in the nearly future I will see if switch to full Grunil or stay 2Heve/2Grunil-HP Version.

Thank you again!

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Posted

Good thread; do you have a spreadsheet of your data? I don't know how into statistics you are but once I have time after my exams (I am in a collegiate level statistics course) I might be able to help make better sense of your data

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Posted

Good thread; do you have a spreadsheet of your data? I don't know how into statistics you are but once I have time after my exams (I am in a collegiate level statistics course) I might be able to help make better sense of your data

You should ask to @hihey54 he his the one that made the Document about Damage with Accuracy and his doing various test about the Damage in general.

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Posted

Oh, didn't read; thought OP made it

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Posted (edited)

In general i prefer defense in pvp. If i gain 5%damage but lose 10%ehp i will lose the shotgun duel vs a ranger that has 10%more ehp and 5%less damage.

If i get bursted by a sorc, i am more likely to not get crushed with 10%more hp.

 

How the values look thats up to each set of gear and playerlevel (and if getting it ultimate beats 250hp for ehp)and i don´t know the damage calculations but roughly calculated i think that i get more ehp than i lose damage using 2heve+2grunil (full hp). This is why i took it (and because it was easier to get the pieces).

 

For pve people it is clearly full grunil and for ganking taking 5ap grunil parts+heve because it has the most damage that you can unload into someones back.

 

PS: tldr: im gonna do 2xheve 2xgrunil then upgrade my 2grunil then reconsider going full grunil but i am like 80%sure that at this point ill rather try to start boss armour.

Edited by Gudtimes

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Posted (edited)

FWIW I am using 2 Zereth/2 Heve now (all between +8 and 10) and have a full set of Grunil on Alt 1. I ran 8 scrolls last night and got all the Grunil to +6. My plan is to get the Grunil to the same level and then experiment before taking the combo I like best to +15. I am leaning Grunil for the Gem slots. As it is I have +5 Crit and only +1 Attack speed.

Edited by Grizabella

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Posted

Oh, didn't read; thought OP made it

Nono :) "I made some research" in the sense that I searched answer in the Forum and various Sites :)

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