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Sorc is NOT OP, time to understand


310 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Dear random forum user,

 

I've came accross a few topics regarding how soc is in some extent, a strong class compared to a few others. Things escalated quickly when videos showing hardcore over-geared sorc powning casual undergeared beginners. Some among you are quickly jumping to conclusion that sorc is OP...

 

The Analogy

Now boys and girls, have you ever played COD:MW ? Yes probably, you must remember the grenade launcher and the infamous Martydom perk.

Those two lame perks where extremly lethal in casual match-ups. Everyone would cry tears on forums about how "OP" that was. Until people got more skilled and slowly realized that those mechancis could be avoided and were a smart way from IW to allow casu-noobs to score some kills and not get crushed by MLGs.

Regarding this, did you see pros using GL and martydom in competition ? Answer is NO. Why not? Because elite players would use less known weapons which nobody cared about. They'd see the true value of others perks.

 

Back to reality

Now it's kind of the same here. Sorc have this faceroll combo that works against most unaware players. Just like some other classes also have a faceroll combo, such as ranger: WotW followed into shotgun to the face. Or even warrior's grab into 100%spinningslash = insta kill before lvl 52.

Do you see sorcs in 3v3 tournaments tho ? Answer is NO ! Because good players will see the real value of other classes and min/max their use depending on the goal and given environement.

 

Currently, NA/EU, does not feature all the PvP aspects of the game. Such as Node wars, Organized GvG, tournaments, etc. Therefor, we (na/eu players) only see the best class in a 1v1 scenario where AP>DP and where there is no strategy, no tactics involved what so ever and no awakenings.

As soon as node wars will hit na/eu, other classes will shine for their true potential and sorc won't be that strong at all. I can actually forsee many topics such as: QQ my sorc is useless in gvg plz buff/help.

 

Conclusion

What is it to understand then ? Let korean do the balancing !ffs! Their eyes is ours in the future ! Have faith in the future-yourself !

They have awakenings, they have more content, they have gvg, they have everything we don't, and thefor have a better understanding of what is strong and what not.

Ask for a sorc nerf now and you'll cry tomorrow when gvg release. You have been warned.

 

Now want to see some tournament 3v3 ? Btw that team wins 9-0 and there is no sorcs.

Edited by Aspen
typos
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Posted (edited)

Currently, NA/EU, does not feature all the PvP aspects of the game. Such as Node wars, Organized GvG, tournaments, etc. Therefor, we (na/eu players) only see the best class in a 1v1 scenario where AP>DP and where there is no strategy, no tactics involved what so ever and no awakenings.

 

This. Sorceress is probably the best character in 1v1s. The problem is so many people try to run solo and then get rekt hard by a sorc.

Also, 4 hours and no replies :/

 

EDIT:

Another reason why people think sorceress is OP is the fact that it's unique. I've never seen a character like it so no one knows how to deal with it. A good example of this is with Super Smash Bros 4 where people though Duck Hunt was OP/Top Tier. Then they figured the class out.

Edited by MrsDark

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Posted

 

Also, 4 hours and no replies :/

At least we're two ! B|

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Posted

nerf zerker instead !

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Posted

Some sorc skills need to be adjusted. I am talking about dark flame and iframes.

- Dark flame has a block, deals lots of damage and can also be used as a small gap closer.

- Iframes are never ending and for a class with so many gap closers and damage it's a bit unbalanced. Also the desync makes it way worse but that affects everyone anyway.

Yeah sorc is the best in 1v1 but she is not bad at 1v5 either because of the iframes, gap closers and high DP (yes sorc has high DP so please don't tell me they are squishy. They even got a DP buff.)

Just stating my opinion, not starting a flame war. :)

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Posted (edited)

Fixing the internal latency of the grabs desync etc, will not only make sorc easier to catch between teleports but also boost significantly zerk/war dps !

Like you said, it is very much a desync related issue.

Without desync, it's very easy to cc between teleports.

Edited by Aspen

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Posted

In the hand of the skilled against those unkown will always be op

 

i find sorcs op because i havent practiced against one equal to me, ive turned some inside out, but equal or above i stand zero chance as insimply dont know :( 

im a tamer, oh and nerf soldiers too :3

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Posted

People are not used to iframes yet and claim they are op. Yet, wizards have iframes and stay backline. Bladers and ninjas will have iframes.

Certain classes are balanced around iframes, since when serker/warrior get their awakening they can two shot anyone, its not possible for these classes to stay in melee for 2 seconds and survive.

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Posted

People are not used to iframes yet and claim they are op. Yet, wizards have iframes and stay backline. Bladers and ninjas will have iframes.

Certain classes are balanced around iframes, since when serker/warrior get their awakening they can two shot anyone, its not possible for these classes to stay in melee for 2 seconds and survive.

^ good points thank you for pointing out the fact iframes is a way of defense such as being able to block for other classes.

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Posted

The desync is a real problem for everyone. 

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Posted

I mean sorcs would be fine if I could get my fps to be higher than my ms

Just potato laptop things

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Posted (edited)

Some sorc skills need to be adjusted. I am talking about dark flame and iframes.

- Dark flame has a block, deals lots of damage and can also be used as a small gap closer.

- Iframes are never ending and for a class with so many gap closers and damage it's a bit unbalanced. Also the desync makes it way worse but that affects everyone anyway.

Yeah sorc is the best in 1v1 but she is not bad at 1v5 either because of the iframes, gap closers and high DP (yes sorc has high DP so please don't tell me they are squishy. They even got a DP buff.)

Just stating my opinion, not starting a flame war. :)

Neutering the class isn't an 'adjustment'.

- Dark Flame's block is brief and highly situational. You can be CC'd out of Dark Flame and using it as a block puts it on cooldown which nerfs your damage. And it's only a 'gap closer' in the sense that if your opponent is CC'd or especially stupid, you can land it from just a hair more than melee range... And in doing so lose the back attack bonus in most cases.

- There literally is a hard limit on iframes in the form of the stamina bar, which depletes extremely quickly under pressure. Sorc has two gap-closing attacks (both of which leave her vulnerable to skilled players if the sorc miscalculates even a tiny bit), and two gap-closing teleports (w+w and shift+space+w) which each have their own downsides and both of which consume her primary defensive resource, precious stamina.

So what happens when you remove the damage or the iframes or gap closers? You have a class that can either a) dodge reasonably well but never contribute anything to a fight at all or b) deal damage but not survive or close the gap well enough to actually deliver that damage to anyone.


At that point you might as well roll one of the more survivable classes or one of the more versatile damage-dealers. Sorc has a niche as it stands, and is not considered OP in Korea which has a far better idea of game balance than you do, to be frank. You're welcome to your opinion but those are the facts.

Edited by lolfail
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Posted

Some sorc skills need to be adjusted. I am talking about dark flame and iframes.

- Dark flame has a block, deals lots of damage and can also be used as a small gap closer.

- Iframes are never ending and for a class with so many gap closers and damage it's a bit unbalanced. Also the desync makes it way worse but that affects everyone anyway.

Yeah sorc is the best in 1v1 but she is not bad at 1v5 either because of the iframes, gap closers and high DP (yes sorc has high DP so please don't tell me they are squishy. They even got a DP buff.)

Just stating my opinion, not starting a flame war. :)

I suggest you check out the korean weekly 1on1 tournaments. The last three weeks have been won by a ranger. The most recent one:

#1 ranger

#2 tamer

#3 sorc

Ranger is the overall TOP nr 1 in the 1on1 bracker. Sorcs isn#t even represented much in the 3on3 bracket. So yeah, SO VERY OP PIE.

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Posted

I have the same opinion. Sorc is a strong 1v1 class but there are better classes for the big fights.

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Posted (edited)

Neutering the class isn't an 'adjustment'.
- Dark Flame's block is brief and highly situational. You can be CC'd out of Dark Flame and using it as a block puts it on cooldown which nerfs your damage. And it's only a 'gap closer' in the sense that if your opponent is CC'd or especially stupid, you can land it from just a hair more than melee range... And in doing so lose the back attack bonus in most cases.

- There literally is a hard limit on iframes in the form of the stamina bar, which depletes extremely quickly under pressure. Sorc has two gap-closing attacks (both of which leave her vulnerable to skilled players if the sorc miscalculates even a tiny bit), and two gap-closing teleports (w+w and shift+space+w) which each have their own downsides and both of which consume her primary defensive resource, precious stamina.

So what happens when you remove the damage or the iframes or gap closers? You have a class that can either a) dodge reasonably well but never contribute anything to a fight at all or b) deal damage but not survive or close the gap well enough to actually deliver that damage to anyone.


At that point you might as well roll one of the more survivable classes or one of the more versatile damage-dealers. Sorc has a niche as it stands, and is not considered OP in Korea which has a far better idea of game balance than you do, to be frank. You're welcome to your opinion but those are the facts.

This too.

Slowly but surely we can open people's eye regarding the OP Sorcs spam fest and eventually avoid a damageful undeserved nerf.

Edited by Aspen
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Posted (edited)

Edit: nevermind, you're just talking about the winning team apparently. 

Edited by Xialoh
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Posted

Some sorc skills need to be adjusted. I am talking about dark flame and iframes.

- Dark flame has a block, deals lots of damage and can also be used as a small gap closer.

- Iframes are never ending and for a class with so many gap closers and damage it's a bit unbalanced. Also the desync makes it way worse but that affects everyone anyway.

Yeah sorc is the best in 1v1 but she is not bad at 1v5 either because of the iframes, gap closers and high DP (yes sorc has high DP so please don't tell me they are squishy. They even got a DP buff.)

Just stating my opinion, not starting a flame war. :)

the whole point of OP's post was that people don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of sorc. Your post pretty much reinforced that opinion.

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Posted (edited)

Fixing the internal latency of the grabs desync etc, will not only make sorc easier to catch between teleports but also boost significantly zerk/war dps !

Like you said, it is very much a desync related issue.

Without desync, it's very easy to cc between teleports.

Grab desync fix will help immensely with Zerk dps by allowing them to rotate through all grabs and dps in between, but not with warrior DPS. In fact, warriors pre-greatsword cannot kill anyone with (roughly from testing) +13 gear or higher, assuming we're talking about real PVP where potions are being used. The burst isn't there outside of the 100% black spirit attack, and even then on a full +15 opponent you have to hit them in the back to take roughly 50% of their health.

Sword and Board warrior will not pose a lethal threat to any class until greatsword comes out, and all of their CC threats are neutered by the immunity buff except their one grab. I'm not starting a flame war, but don't spread information that you don't understand. Warriors only seem tough to kill because they're all stacking DP, making block last longer, because the ones that stack AP just lose in a dps fight with any other class due to significantly worse damage scaling from their abilities.

Real PVP in this game comes from being able to either burst through potion spam or provide lasting meaningful CC for the classes that CAN burst through potions. The zerker will get significantly better at that job once desync and grapple issues are addressed, the warrior will likely see little to no change. Even post greatsword, warriors that choose to use the GS in GvG only do so to suicide nuke with the 100% because of its massive damage.

Also, archer is definitely the best solo class in the KR version, but it's very possible that won't be the case in our version, since they've apparently been discussing lowering the difference between enchant levels higher than +15 on the NA/EU client, which is what causes archer to be so powerful.

Edit: Oh, and for the record, I think sorc is in a good spot for the upcoming node wars, but in smaller scale PVP their damage is a bit absurd, even when you stack DP they absolutely chunk you. Guess that's their niche. A well geared Sorc will crush literally anything 1v1 with no real competition, for better or for worse.

Edited by Biggians

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Posted

A well geared Sorc will crush literally anything 1v1 with no real competition, for better or for worse.

Hasn't this been disproven several times over on the Korean side, where they've held competitive tournaments of various different flavors?

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Posted

Hasn't this been disproven several times over on the Korean side, where they've held competitive tournaments of various different flavors?

I guess I should have said "On the NA/EU client" at the end of that. Assuming we get reduced weapon scaling, it's very possible that sorc will still be #1 post +16 and higher weapons.

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Posted

the whole point of OP's post was that people don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of sorc. Your post pretty much reinforced that opinion.

I've played sorc and still am as an alt, my point remains.

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Posted

I've played sorc and still am as an alt, my point remains.

And yet Sorc is regularly beaten in 1v1 by people who understand how to fight them both here and in Korea (in tournaments, no less). So beyond what I said before about your point basically amounting to 'take away the things that make the sorc actually viable as a class', it doesn't even hold up to scrutiny as soon as you move away from the low effort/unskilled crowd that don't feel like it should be on them to learn how to play the game and counter other classes.

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Posted

And yet Sorc is regularly beaten in 1v1 by people who understand how to fight them both here and in Korea (in tournaments, no less). So beyond what I said before about your point basically amounting to 'take away the things that make the sorc actually viable as a class', it doesn't even hold up to scrutiny as soon as you move away from the low effort/unskilled crowd that don't feel like it should be on them to learn how to play the game and counter other classes.

this might have been said already but I think dark flame needs to be adjusted so that potato sorcs can't just spam it. 

Maybe make the air attack work properly and lower the damage. 

Then you actually need to combo it and not just open and close with dark flames 

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Posted

this might have been said already but I think dark flame needs to be adjusted so that potato sorcs can't just spam it. 

Maybe make the air attack work properly and lower the damage. 

Then you actually need to combo it and not just open and close with dark flames 

Kind of doubtful. An adjustment that reduced the effectiveness of Dark Flame spam further (it already loses significant damage when used during the 6 sec cooldown) would harm a class that as near as anyone with experience can tell, isn't in need of a nerf. There isn't much in the way of alternatives in the sorc lineup for damage, and they already initiate with a CC rather than Dark Flame in the vast majority of cases.

On the other end of the spectrum, if a nerf to Dark Flame was accompanied by some sort of buff that required a combo, you'd see 1) sorcs even more useless in large-scale PvP because they have to be still in melee for the float -> DF combo you suggested, and/or 2) called more OP than ever if the combo did significantly more damage than current Dark Flame via air attacks.

Just seems like a bad way to go all around.

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Posted

dark flame needs less damage

abyssal flame needs more damage

 

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