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AP vs Human Damage (tests) (updated 02/05/2016)


38 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I had some spare time, so I decided to do a bunch of quick tests on Human Damage vs AP. Hopefully these data can be used in the future to determine an "accurate" formula for Damage.

I won't go the length of writing thorough stuff as I did with my Accuracy thread, so I'll keep it brief.

Me: lv53 Ranger. 
Target: lv51 Wizard

Testing methodology: use 5 attacks on the enemy and record how much damage each attack deals. Then proceed to increase my AP and Human damage and record how much damage I dealt.
Sample size: 5 (it's low as it might not be enough to catch the exact range between MIN/MAX damage, but it's still enough to get a rough idea of how these two attributes work).
Attacks used: Penetrating Wind IV (I only recorded attacks that landed all 3 hits and crit); regular Autoattack (with Bow Mastery X - I only recorded attacks that hit and did not crit)
Stats & gear used: I did 3 groups of tests. The first was done with an Ultimate Styd Bow (with my "base" AP being 33) and enemy DP being 61. The second was done with a (green) Yuria +14 (base AP=69) and enemy DP being 61. The third was done with a (green) Yuria +14 (base AP=69) and enemy DP being 106. As for other items, I was running a 2Heve/2Zereth, Bronze Dagger +7 with a DUO:Kalis Amulet. The additional AP was provided by a PRI:Bares Belt and 2xPRI: Ring of Good Deeds (total of +9AP); the additional +Human Damage was provided by a PRI:Yuria Belt and 2xPRI Yuria Earring (total of +9 Human Damage). 

Results in the spoiler below:

PRhWggs.png

Conclusion: Human Damage is not pure damage (you can see it from the results of the Autoattacks tests) and is hugely affected by the enemy DP. Aside from this, on equal amounts, +AP performed very slightly better in any test (in terms of Average Damage); however, the MIN and MAX damage recorded were very similar - so similar that, considering RNG, it is entirely possible that +Human Damage behaves the same as +AP (at least against Human targets). Also, it looks like that +Human Damage scales with Critical Hits (the values registered for the Penetrating Wind attacks are really close).

Question: if what I wrote above is true, then I am not surprised that, in terms of hit damage, Ultimate Yuria dealt more damage than a Liverto (I can't find the link currently, but I remember someone stating that, by his tests, Yuria>Liverto in terms of hit damage) - at least in PvP. However, the additional socket on the Liverto alongside the (assumed) higher Accuracy value might make Liverto still better in terms of raw DPS. Further testing is required on this.
(I have around 150Millions in my bank and around 150 Black Weapon Stones. If I manage to get a Liverto, I'll immediately move to upgrade it and conduct a lot of tests on this matter as well).

TL;DR: Human Damage is not pure damage and is hugely affected by the enemy DP; you'll never be wrong with stacking AP. However, at least against Human Targets (PvP), it looks like Human Damage behaves the same.

 

Any comment is appreciated. If you have any data on this, please do share (but remember to include the conditions, methodology and sample size) so that we can comment on it.

EDIT: According to SukkIa, you can find some rough tests on Yuria (green) vs Liverto here: http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/6514-liverto-vs-yuria-discussion/&page=7#comment-282101 
...his results kind of matched mine. Just for clarification:
Green Yuria +15: 68-73 AP
Blue Liverto +15: 78-82 AP
This means that the Liverto has "innately" 10 more AP than the Yuria. However, against human targets, Yuria has a "base" of +5 Damage against Humans, along with an unspecified amount given by the +15 Enchantment. 
Now, if what he says is correct - that is, you need a 5AP crystal on the Liverto to get the same base damage -, then it meant that a +15 Green Yuria has nearly +15 Damage Against Humans (+5 base, and +10 given from enchantments).

EDIT2: Some tests performed by Skeling (he had a bigger sample size, so they are more reliable) showed similar results to the ones I had: more specifically, they showed that, even on Critical Hits, +Human Damage is very close to AP in terms of damage increase.
These are the results:

 

I ran a similar test today, here are my findings:

Alright I did a pretty extensive test with this using an AP set and a +Human Dmg set. Both sets were using a +15 Ultimate Yuria Longsword. It would have been preferable to use a +15 Liverto or something else with no additional human damage, but I didn't have that available. So keep in mind the extra small amount of human damage from Yuria. For our purposes though, I will say that the pure AP set has no additional human damage (discounting Yuria Longsword). I have +15AP from Crystals, and we have a +1 Damage Reduction from the guild buff.

Set #1 (AP Set): 118 AP, +0 Human Damage

Set #2 (HD Set): 94 AP, +24 Human Damage

Method: The process used was a single Spinning Slash attack on my opponent, a Ranger, after which we recorded the HP lost from the attack. While my opponent wore his full armor set totaling 148 DP, I repeated this process 30 times for each set. When he removed his armor to total 0 DP, I repeated this process 10 times for each set. Do note that Spinning Slash is at max rank, so it's 470% x 3 hits, +5% health as damage (I have 2121 health), and 100% critical.

Results

Against 148 DP

Set #1 (AP Set):

AVG HIT = 250.2 DMG

MIN HIT = 228 DMG

MAX HIT = 267 DMG

Set #2 (HD Set):

AVG HIT = 244.4 DMG

MIN HIT = 225 DMG

MAX HIT = 261 DMG

Against 0 DP

Set #1 (AP Set):

AVG HIT = 390.3 DMG

MIN HIT = 382 DMG

MAX HIT = 397 DMG

Set #2 (HD Set):

AVG HIT = 378.3 DMG

MIN HIT = 369 DMG

MAX HIT = 386 DMG

Conclusion

With a difference of 24 damage coming from AP versus Human Damage, it appears as though the AP set had a slight advantage. Against a fully armored opponent, the AP set dealt 5.8 more damage on average, a 2.4% increase. Against an opponent with no armor, the AP set dealt 12 more damage on average, a 3.1% increase. 

It's still inconclusive whether or not Human Damage bypasses DP. I will have to further analyze the results and difference in damage numbers between armored and unarmored opponent.

Edit: If anyone has a Liverto or Kzarka weapon, I implore you to reproduce this test as to remove the confounding variable of additional human damage from the Yuria Longsword.

 

 

Edited by hihey54
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Posted (edited)

Thanks. I feel better now i gave up on liverto.

Good job as usual :)

But .. how many HD have a +15 yuria?

Edited by Jean Bernard

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Posted

A +15 Yuria is equal in damage to a Liverto with a +5 AP crystal, against human enemies. See this test here. 

Thanks a lot for testing this, still very interested in the accuracy scaling of liverto vs yuria.

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Posted

Thanks. I feel better now i gave up on liverto.

Good job as usual :)

But .. how many HD have a +15 yuria?

I don't know, sadly. This is kinda hard to test, as I'd need a weapon with the same range and enough trinkets to stack +human damage, on top of the trinkets needed to match the base AP value of the Yuria.

A +15 Yuria is equal in damage to a Liverto with a +5 AP crystal, against human enemies. See this test here. 

Thanks a lot for testing this, still very interested in the accuracy scaling of liverto vs yuria.

Thank you for the link. I remember reading into it before, but couldn't find it earlier. I've been wasting so much time in front of the marketplace guy that I'm starting to get pretty mad at this - especially if I end up discovering that the Accuracy difference (if any) is small D:

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Posted

And he tested it with a green yuria. Not even ultimate.

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You guys don't get it....the advantage of the liverto is capped attack and crit AND extra accuracy....it has been stated a thousand times.   Why would he choose a lower level wizard and not even state what the target's dp is?

 

this is a flawed test.  As someone who has both a +15 yuria and liverto there is NO comparison as to which is better.  Not even close

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Posted

You guys don't get it....the advantage of the liverto is capped attack and crit AND extra accuracy....it has been stated a thousand times.   Why would he choose a lower level wizard and not even state what the target's dp is?

 

this is a flawed test.  As someone who has both a +15 yuria and liverto there is NO comparison as to which is better.  Not even close

Mate, that isn't what that test was about at all.  All it did was show the damage difference between the two weapons and how +Human damage behaves, nothing else.

He did state the targets's DP, numerous times. But apparently you missed that.

You can cap crit and attack speed with an ultimate yuria too if you use food, that's not much of an advantage for liverto.

Liverto has way better damage against everything not human. Liverto may or may not have better accuracy. Liverto offers a bit more freedom when choosing your crystals/food.

It's better, but not much.

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Posted

this is a flawed test.  As someone who has both a +15 yuria and liverto there is NO comparison as to which is better.  Not even close

If you want to make a statement like that, you should explain why. One of the advantages of tests like this, is to put an end to players like yourself spouting opinion as fact.

Yellow Yuria has 1crit and  1AS, Liverto has 3crit. It's a difference of only 1point. The crystal slot will account for one of these bonuses at best, 5AP+2HD or 1crit+1AS+2AP or 10%ignore resist. That 9-20m crystal can also break

It would not surprise me in the least if the total bonuses being gained per enchant for both weapons are roughly equal. The Yuria may sacrifice accuracy but gains the extra human dmg. 

In the end it's important to know the actual difference in 'power' between the two weapons. Because the cost of continually repairing a Liverto is MASSIVE in comparison to Yuria. That difference in price starts to show itself as weapons get closer and closer to +20. It is entirely possible that difference could account for one player having a +17 Liverto while another has a +18 Yuria. 

Managing your silver is an important part of this game. I understand some players have endless piles of it... they're the exception to the rule. Not every discussion should be focused on those players. I know far far too many players who don't play that many hours of BDO and get suckered into trying to upgrade a Liverto they simply can not afford. That player becomes so much weaker when they follow the loud BiS players like sheep. 

 

Thanks for taking the time @hihey54 to run more tests. :x

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Posted (edited)

+3 crit vs +1 atk/crit is almost the same because of food buff. If you don't put a carmae on your liverto, then you won't reach 5 crit. So exactly the same than yuria if both put a carmae.

Edited by Jean Bernard

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Posted

You guys don't get it....the advantage of the liverto is capped attack and crit AND extra accuracy....it has been stated a thousand times.   Why would he choose a lower level wizard and not even state what the target's dp is?

 

this is a flawed test.  As someone who has both a +15 yuria and liverto there is NO comparison as to which is better.  Not even close

This isn't a yuria vs liverto test. AP vs Human Damage. There are many other items that gives human damage, or even buffs from food.

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Posted (edited)

You guys don't get it....the advantage of the liverto is capped attack and crit AND extra accuracy....it has been stated a thousand times.   Why would he choose a lower level wizard and not even state what the target's dp is?

 

this is a flawed test.  As someone who has both a +15 yuria and liverto there is NO comparison as to which is better.  Not even close

You've been already given an answer to most of the (absolutely flawed) points that you brought up with your post.

However, there is one thing that caught my eye: care to explain exactly how you came to the conclusion that a +15Yuria (of which quality btw?) and a +15Liverto are "not even close" in terms of which one is better? 
How did you test it? Did you actually test it, or is it simply the byproduct of a placebo effect your brain made up to justify the outrageous expenses needed to get the Liverto up to +15?

Also, what is this "capped attack" you speak of? I've never heard of something like this.
 

As for the other comments, thank you for the interest. Honestly I was a bit surprised of these results as well: I've always seen +Human Damage to be a "weaker" verision of AP (even against Human targets). However, it looks like this is not the case.
The tests shown in the post that SukkIa quoted were interesting but not "spot on", in a sense that using "pixels" to determine the damage output of a certain combination might make you "lose" some data, as we don't know how much HP a pixel corresponds to (along with how much DP the target had - but this is another matter).

Still, if the Yuria that user used to perform his tests was a Green one, his results kind of matched mine. Just for clarification:
Green Yuria +15: 68-73
Blue Liverto +15: 78-82
This means that the Liverto has "innately" 10 more AP than the Yuria. However, against human targets, Yuria has a "base" of +5 Damage against Humans, along with an unspecified amount given by the +15 Enchantment. 
Now, if what he says is correct - that is, you need a 5AP crystal on the Liverto to get the same base damage -, then it meant that a +15 Green Yuria has nearly +15 Damage Against Humans (+5 base, and +10 given from enchantments).

Edited by hihey54

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Posted

Helen ... 

 

I've been speaking with a lot of Korean streamers back in the days just to know if indeed dammage vs Human would actually work in PvP. people actaually tested it during month. 

Damage Against Humans does not work on PvP. Why would actually Korean play Yuria instead of something else ? Because of the high AP, the accuracy and because a lot of the high level PvE (sausans, pirates) are humans which makes it kinda viable for it until you get a Kzarka or a Liv, granting you more accuracy and AP.

Funny to see how people are downvoting threads on reddit that actually proved that it doesnt work. Koreans would prolly laugh too.

 

Glad to see you on the game tho man. What guild/server u on ? :)

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Posted (edited)

Helen ... 

Yo! o/

I've been speaking with a lot of Korean streamers back in the days just to know if indeed dammage vs Human would actually work in PvP. people actaually tested it during month. 

Damage Against Humans does not work on PvP. Why would actually Korean play Yuria instead of something else ? Because of the high AP, the accuracy and because a lot of the high level PvE (sausans, pirates) are humans which makes it kinda viable for it until you get a Kzarka or a Liv, granting you more accuracy and AP.

Funny to see how people are downvoting threads on reddit that actually proved that it doesnt work. Koreans would prolly laugh too.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

My tests are pretty transparent on this. There would be no reason to believe that Human Damage does not work in PvP, based on the results of these tests:
I first noted the damage when I had a certain amount of AP (33); then I proceeded to note the damage when I slotted in enough items to get +9 Human Damage.
IF +Human Damage did not work, we wouldn't have seen an increase in damage - which was consistent through all the tests.
Maybe there are other sources of +Human Damage that make it faulty? For example, Elixirs giving +Human Damage might not work (I remember some Elixirs not working a few weeks ago) - but in terms of items (at least the items I used), all the evidence here states that +Human Damage does indeed work, and that it provides an increase very similar to a flat +AP bonus.

I don't care about what Koreans say. For all I know, they might be playing on a version with "faulty" +Human Damage (I'd like to see the source of the tests they did in order to claim that +Human Damage didn't work). The point is, in our version - which is the version we are interested in - +Human Damage works (in PvP), and it performs pretty well.

Also, the results I got here kind of match the result of the tests performed by the user who tested the (flat) damage difference between a Yuria and a Liverto. So I don't really find any reason that would make me think that +Human Damage is not working.

(on a side note, I'm not pleased when people talk about what Koreans do/say without providing any valid source. If you want to discuss about my conclusions, that's fine. But if you're questioning the data, then you'll need more than just the "word of a Korean Streamer").

If you really insist in claiming that +Human Damage does not work (in PvP), then answer this: why did I do more damage (in my tests) when I had the same AP value but added +9Human Damage? 

EDIT: to answer the "why would a lot of people play with Yuria": it is definitely because of the +Human Damage. If this stat wouldn't work in PvP, a lot of people would have probably shifted to another "cheap" main weapon, like an Azwell, a Krea or a Kalis. People care about PvE, but they definitely are more interested in the PvP aspect. Losing some damage against some mobs wouldn't be the end of the world; however, in PvP, you want to maximize all your stuff. +Human Damage affecting PvP is the reason why people use Yuria.

Glad to see you on the game tho man. What guild/server u on ? :)

I don't know for how long yet. :( I might have to start working full time in a couple weeks, with my playtime being drastically reduced. Playing on Jordine currently with some old dF people o/

Edited by hihey54
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Posted

Looking at the test. this is garbage. I appreciate the effort, but with a sample size of 5 for every test it says absolutely nothing.

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Looking at the test. this is garbage. I appreciate the effort, but with a sample size of 5 for every test it says absolutely nothing.

What exactly is garbage? 

The fact that +Human Damage = AP (against humans)? I never stated this as fact. I've only said that it looks like they behave in the same way.
The fact that +Human Damage =/= pure damage? This is pretty easy to see. If it was like this, I would be scoring +9 damage for every "basic" attack and +27 damage for each PW (since it's 3 hits). However, none of the tests showed this. In particular, if it really were true damage, how could you explain the fact that I hit my opponent for 8 damage? Unless you tell me that Wizards have ways to heal themselves when attacked (by receiving a hit of -1HP), I find it highly unlikely that +Human Damage is pure damage.

These are the two conclusions I came about with this test. The first one is just an "extra". My main goal was determining if Human Damage was true damage - which it clearly isn't. I agree that further tests are required to determine if +Human Damage = AP (against Human targets), but that will be "mostly" tested when (and if!) I'll be able to get my hands onto a Liverto.

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Posted

I have no doubt Yuria is the most worthwhile in PvP (I use it) however the reason people want Liverto is to reach 5 crit/5 attack speed at the same time, which could influence a duel outcome hard, lets say even with a 5/5 build you still do less damage the while using a Yuria, yet you would be able to put in more attacks with the Liverto.

In the end it depends on crystal use, but considering how easy it is to get attack speed, the +3 Critical on the Bow make it even easier to reach both targets at 5 or put them 4/4 if you use Food all the time.

In the end it is up to how much you are willing to invest in stats/crystals.

 

OP: Thank you for the topic, it makes me glad that I have not rushed into Liverto, its nice to know my Yuria has its value, I personally have only been testing on Tamer (In the tamers case I prefer liverto due to the raw damage you get from that sweet extra crit without having to wait on food buff, I would love to get a Liverto on my Ranger, to test beyond your work and see just how much difference there is in damage, as mentioned our version (EU/NA) is where I want to get data from, not S.Korea where they might have a lot of other factors that influence the results.

If you get a Liverto in the near future be sure to keep this updated, we need more EU/NA information after all, not Korean o/

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I would love to see a Damage reduction test in the future. Great work!

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Posted (edited)

I have no doubt Yuria is the most worthwhile in PvP (I use it) however the reason people want Liverto is to reach 5 crit/5 attack speed at the same time, which could influence a duel outcome hard, lets say even with a 5/5 build you still do less damage the while using a Yuria, yet you would be able to put in more attacks with the Liverto.

In the end it depends on crystal use, but considering how easy it is to get attack speed, the +3 Critical on the Bow make it even easier to reach both targets at 5 or put them 4/4 if you use Food all the time.

In the end it is up to how much you are willing to invest in stats/crystals.

Yeah, I never questioned this. I still believe that, even if +Human Damage = AP (against Humans), Liverto/Kzarka would still be the BiS weapons, because of more flexibility and, potentially, more damage (on crits). 

My goal was never to determine which weapon was better. I did these tests only to find out if +Human Damage=Pure damage, and if I could spot any noticeable difference between +Human Damage and AP. The Liverto vs Yuria discussion is just a byproduct of these findings :3

 

OP: Thank you for the topic, it makes me glad that I have not rushed into Liverto, its nice to know my Yuria has its value, I personally have only been testing on Tamer (In the tamers case I prefer liverto due to the raw damage you get from that sweet extra crit without having to wait on food buff, I would love to get a Liverto on my Ranger, to test beyond your work and see just how much difference there is in damage, as mentioned our version (EU/NA) is where I want to get data from, not S.Korea where they might have a lot of other factors that influence the results.

If you get a Liverto in the near future be sure to keep this updated, we need more EU/NA information after all, not Korean o/

I concur. I firmly believe that people are creating too many myths around Koreans. Koreans are people too, they make mistakes and their minds are influenced by the same phenomena we experience (placebo effects, wishful thinking). Taking a Korean's player words as facts without proper data is wrong.

(not saying that I am better than them, of course. I share all my data here so that other people can comment and, in case, discuss about my conclusions)

I would love to see a Damage reduction test in the future. Great work!

It is on my list, but in a low priority one. It's not particularly expensive: with Krea main Weapon+Offhand and a full Hercules Might set I would have 12 slots that I could fill with +1 Damage Reduction crystals, and then register the damage I take with and without the crystals (to determine if it's a flat damage reduction or not).

Edited by hihey54
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Posted (edited)

I think such tests are pretty useless. Within 5 hits per test run, you barely can judge how crit and accuracy affects anything. Also, it's all about DPS and not only D, I don't see how single hits taken completely out of context would reflect a real Yuria/Liverto comparison (after all, 5/5 crit/attackspeed is one of the main benefits of Liverto, you can't just ignore double damage every 5 hits).

Furthermore, 60 and 100 DPS are ridiculously low, apparently accuracy comes really into play against higher DP.

Test at this stage should be done vs. full +15 equipment, at least 100 hits per test run, plus considering the damage per seconds. E.g. use autoattack on enemy and see how many seconds you need to kill him. That's really the ONLY thing that counts

Edited by Spartakatz

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Posted

Well, too bad you can't read to understand why he did those tests.

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Posted

Does this mean that +1 damage reduction works similar to dp? Do that test as well please. 

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I think such tests are pretty useless. Within 5 hits per test run, you barely can judge how crit and accuracy affects anything. Also, it's all about DPS and not only D, I don't see how single hits taken completely out of context would reflect a real Yuria/Liverto comparison (after all, 5/5 crit/attackspeed is one of the main benefits of Liverto, you can't just ignore double damage every 5 hits).

Furthermore, 60 and 100 DPS are ridiculously low, apparently accuracy comes really into play against higher DP.

Test at this stage should be done vs. full +15 equipment, at least 100 hits per test run, plus considering the damage per seconds. E.g. use autoattack on enemy and see how many seconds you need to kill him. That's really the ONLY thing that counts

You did not understand a single post among the ones I wrote. Either your reading comprehension is lacking, or you did not read them at all.

Next time, be sure to post valid critics to my tests, as your claims are completely void of any meaning considered the scope of my tests.

Does this mean that +1 damage reduction works similar to dp? Do that test as well please. 

It does not "mean" it, and I won't say anything about it before I test it out. However, as I already stated, this is something that I'm planning to do.

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You did not understand a single post among the ones I wrote. Either your reading comprehension is lacking, or you did not read them at all.

Next time, be sure to post valid critics to my tests, as your claims are completely void of any meaning considered the scope of my tests.

It does not "mean" it, and I won't say anything about it before I test it out. However, as I already stated, this is something that I'm planning to do.

I was just trying to add to the testing hype.

I should have written it as "I would like to see that test as well" since you labeled it a low priority.

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I ran a similar test today, here are my findings:

Alright I did a pretty extensive test with this using an AP set and a +Human Dmg set. Both sets were using a +15 Ultimate Yuria Longsword. It would have been preferable to use a +15 Liverto or something else with no additional human damage, but I didn't have that available. So keep in mind the extra small amount of human damage from Yuria. For our purposes though, I will say that the pure AP set has no additional human damage (discounting Yuria Longsword)

Set #1 (AP Set): 103 AP, +0 Human Damage

Set #2 (HD Set): 79 AP, +24 Human Damage

Method: The process used was a single Spinning Slash attack on my opponent, a Ranger, after which we recorded the HP lost from the attack. While my opponent wore his full armor set totaling 148 DP, I repeated this process 30 times for each set. When he removed his armor to total 0 DP, I repeated this process 10 times for each set.

Results

Against 148 DP

Set #1 (AP Set):

AVG HIT = 250.2 DMG

MIN HIT = 228 DMG

MAX HIT = 267 DMG

Set #2 (HD Set):

AVG HIT = 244.4 DMG

MIN HIT = 225 DMG

MAX HIT = 261 DMG

Against 0 DP

Set #1 (AP Set):

AVG HIT = 390.3 DMG

MIN HIT = 382 DMG

MAX HIT = 397 DMG

Set #2 (HD Set):

AVG HIT = 378.3 DMG

MIN HIT = 369 DMG

MAX HIT = 386 DMG

Conclusion

With a difference of 24 damage coming from AP versus Human Damage, it appears as though the AP set had a slight advantage. Against a fully armored opponent, the AP set dealt 5.8 more damage on average, a 2.4% increase. Against an opponent with no armor, the AP set dealt 12 more damage on average, a 3.1% increase. 

It's still inconclusive whether or not Human Damage bypasses DP. I will have to further analyze the results and difference in damage numbers between armored and unarmored opponent.

Edit: If anyone has a Liverto or Kzarka weapon, I implore you to reproduce this test as to remove the confounding variable of additional human damage from the Yuria Longsword.

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Posted

Did you consider Guild bonuses? They might have added some Damage Reduction. Also, it would have been interesting to note how high your "base" damage was - that is, how much damage you dealt with just your Yuria Longsword, without any additional AP or HD accessories. 

Anyway, your results are very similar to mine. It looks like AP is very slightly better. And I'd say that this very small difference rules out once and for all the claim that HD does not work in PvP. 

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