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An idea to the PVE vs PVP player debate

Simply yay or nay   16 votes

  1. 1. Is this idea even remotely considerable?

    • Something to think about
      6
    • Probably will still not work
      10

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

20 posts in this topic

Posted

I would like to present this idea to the community at hand, and while it may be something touching the ever heated topic, I am hoping for at least a fair amount of review and thought on this as the lines are drawn for toggles, pve/pvp server, and reenabling the quest of 50.  Though I do like myself personally the re-enabled 50 idea, it negates that people forget is that when we all hit 50, the PVE player will want to Awaken... and the fighting will begin again.  What I purpose is only simply tweaks the the current rule-set, allowing the both to continue to those true to their playstyle.  Without further ado, I present this, and to the CMs/Mods, hoping this is okay to get some views in General... it can be moved if needed :D  If the response is just negative, I will ask for closure :(

Player

As we know, the Karma system is in place positive to negative.  The PVE player would like a toggle for this, immune them from PVP, while the PVP player has that it killed the immersion.  I agree with this, as a PVE player, however I think we can find balance here.  The solution is this, proposed in the Karma 2.0 system by allowing one additional to the white while adjusting the yellow.  Keep in mind, the toggle in the game already exists, you have to activate it to PVP, it just does not immune a player who is not.

  • The adjustment would be that the white player is now between 300k > 250k, a player in this range is immuned to PVP for the most part.  There is exceptions to this, which will explained further.  (Basically, if you want the rules as is, all you have to do is stay in the contested zone... explained below)
  • Yellow player - Red, the remaining apply

Zones

One of the chief complaints is that if a player is immuned, the griefing of farming can occur.  Here is a possible solution to this, using data of the farm zone popularity and the Combat Zone, and as above this is where a white player can have their PVE only buff removed.

  • Using the Combat Zone, data can be used to essentially create "districts" in popular and non popular farm zones, where a gauge is added to the district determining the saturation of active players killing mobs.  The more popular, the easier the saturation is progressed, which shows on the screen in possibly a bar
  • A player, just passing through or say gathering, does not count to the equation, the player has to be engaged in active PVE mob fighting
  • Once the saturation of the zone is reached, players receive a warning that is more directed to white players, that the threshold is reached, and have 45 seconds to leave the zone.  If they stay, the immunity is removed and the existing rules that they can be PKed.  And also, if reached, they would need to be out of the zone for 10 minutes for it to reset itself.  (There is no reset, if they are fighting in the zone they have to leave to be safe as they have been counted as active)
  • If you stay, and engage a player, you will suffer the Karma penalty, and all of the regular rules now apply.

This is just an idea, not an attempt to trigger anything.  If you think this might be something solid, let it be known.  

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

How about what they have in Korea with the actual real version of the game, then we can go from there? Honestly that takes a whole lot of coding and testing and balance to implement . It's pretty much a revamp.

Edited by Tillerzz
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Posted

I do not think it would be a revamp, everything is in place all that is added is additional layers to the existing Karma and zones.  Daum/PA have always said they are open to change, especially for the western version... look how they added those open world PVE dungeons.  They are serious about the game, and want to make changes to make players happy.  

Its just a thought like I said, something that could be added to keep the open world and solve the PK problem while keeping PVP as available, since one of the main complaint against the toggle, server, and channel is that grind spots can be trolled.  

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Posted

How about what they have in Korea with the actual real version of the game, then we can go from there? Honestly that takes a whole lot of coding and testing and balance to implement . It's pretty much a revamp.

^ this

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Posted

^ this

^ this

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Posted

^ this

^that

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Posted

I think it's an interesting and solid proposition for a game in general.  I like the notion of saturation determining the amount of pvp activity allowed, if I understood correctly.  In a way, it's like those traffic lights that stay green until traffic shows up, and the extra rules traffic lights impose are needed.

At the moment though, for BDO in particular, I do think how the game was initially designed is promising.  It just needs to be implemented fully, which means time to localize the content and release it.

To keep with your idea regarding saturation: when they release the higher level lands, there will be less saturation in the areas currently considered "end-game."  These areas are not really end-game, the end-game material isn't here yet.  When it is, the initial design of the game with the level cap at 50, I think, has a pretty good chance of working well.

I like how dynamic your idea is.  :)  Most games I know of have a static system determining the level or activity in particular regions.  What you're suggesting sounds like it would allow a horde to descend on a territory for invasion.  It'd be interesting to see a game implementing that.  I just think it would be premature to try and work that into the current program without giving the full game a chance to work as originally designed.

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Posted

I think it's an interesting and solid proposition for a game in general.  I like the notion of saturation determining the amount of pvp activity allowed, if I understood correctly.  In a way, it's like those traffic lights that stay green until traffic shows up, and the extra rules traffic lights impose are needed.

At the moment though, for BDO in particular, I do think how the game was initially designed is promising.  It just needs to be implemented fully, which means time to localize the content and release it.

To keep with your idea regarding saturation: when they release the higher level lands, there will be less saturation in the areas currently considered "end-game."  These areas are not really end-game, the end-game material isn't here yet.  When it is, the initial design of the game with the level cap at 50, I think, has a pretty good chance of working well.

I like how dynamic your idea is.  :)  Most games I know of have a static system determining the level or activity in particular regions.  What you're suggesting sounds like it would allow a horde to descend on a territory for invasion.  It'd be interesting to see a game implementing that.  I just think it would be premature to try and work that into the current program without giving the full game a chance to work as originally designed.

I agree with a lot of what you said here. Yes people will spread out more once the full game is released; but the problem we have now will remain due to poor design changes being implemented. At the time this was debated I don't think players truly understood the how long it would take to reach level 50 (some can do it in a day), and most never gave the idea of arenas for PvP a chance. The reason I have the position I have about reverting the game to it's original state is that I think this game needs a chance to be played as intended and I don't think it was given that chance here in the west. Listening to a small sample of your potential playerbase before anyone was given the chance to try the intended design was mistake number 1.

As for full game retooling as the OP suggested I  think over time the casuals and game hoppers will leave and the game will level out; and if we jump to a full revamp at this early stage it could spell disaster for the future of the game and those who remain (I have seen this before). I think there is some potential here, but I also agree the game needs a chance to fully settle here in the west before making sweeping changes that could impact it's future. If later on there are some ideas here that could work; then they could be considered later perhaps for newer areas in the game.The game needs to be reverted to it's intended state; not all western gamers are bloodthirsty gankers or e-sport thugs as the early vocal minority suggested. Do we like PvP? sure do, but we also have a more diverse crowd of MMO gamers than in most regions and this game and it's developers should respect that, beyond what a few very loud forum trollers would suggest. Any amount of professionally obtained metrics could tell you this. Players in the west tend to be more casual and so do their games; "South Korea has such a competitive multiplayer gaming culture that casual games there look a lot more “hardcore” than casual games elsewhere."  I'll say it again making the game more hardcore and locking a potential playerbase completely out of the market  was a bad design decision on Daums part.

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Posted (edited)

Players in the west tend to be more casual and so do their games; "South Korea has such a competitive multiplayer gaming culture that casual games there look a lot more “hardcore” than casual games elsewhere."  I'll say it again making the game more hardcore and locking a potential playerbase completely out of the market  was a bad design decision on Daums part.

thing is, there is nothing "hardcore"

I dont see how its "hardcore" to ask for a player to spend 500hours ( random time value ) grinding in the game in order to have the lastest gear.

For me hardcore is "very hard", but farming during XXXhours isnt hard, its just... well... long, it dont requier any particular skill, nor intellectual activity.

 

Ppl really wrongly use terme. + casual would just mean its less long ( considering mmo ) to get the lastest gear, but would that game loose all his point if you still need a lot of game experience ? ( like for pvp ) Actual i dont think so. ( GW1 is more than a perfect exemple )

 

Eastern mmo are """"""hardcore"""""" because thoses games are very tied to thoses "p2w" cash shop, because its in their culture, that's more a buisiness model than an actual real gamedesign ( in a sense that his gamedesign have a real interest regarding game enjoyment )

 

real hardcore games, are games like "I Wanna Be The Boshy" Yes, THIS is an hardcore games. mmo requiering to grind, are NOT hardcore.

 

Edited by woots

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Posted

 Listening to a small sample of your potential playerbase before anyone was given the chance to try the intended design was mistake number 1.

This.

Said it a million times...but any developer that listens to the loud minority on their forums and implements changes based off those fickle few....is only destined for one thing.  Game after game after failed game has proven this.

And that would be a real shame.

Also agree they should have just given us what Korea have.

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Posted

How about I just hold CTRL, and you die?

 

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Posted (edited)

I like the idea, a lot. But expecting some initiative from Daum who isnt even capable of admitting there is any problem here? Not holding my breath.

Edited by Kat

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Posted

This.

Said it a million times...but any developer that listens to the loud minority on their forums and implements changes based off those fickle few....is only destined for one thing.  Game after game after failed game has proven this.

And that would be a real shame.

Also agree they should have just given us what Korea have.

Well this is the point where players start to vote with their wallets, soon we will learn what was the right or wrong game design choice.

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Posted

Daum have made their choice. They have chosen ganking. I can't see a change happening now, it would already have happened if Daum were inclined to listen to the majority.

I think they took too much advice from the noisy minority during the first CBT and certain CM's who personally favour ganking (and just a guess, but switching back now after requesting the ganking changes from Pearl Abyss would either be financially costing, or just to humiliating). So they, and we, are stuck with it.

It's a shame, but hey! Plenty of AAA betas coming up shortly.

 

 

 

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Posted

I can't even parse that, but going with the first reply I'll have to say no.

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Posted

Daum have made their choice. They have chosen ganking. I can't see a change happening now, it would already have happened if Daum were inclined to listen to the majority.

I think they took too much advice from the noisy minority during the first CBT and certain CM's who personally favour ganking (and just a guess, but switching back now after requesting the ganking changes from Pearl Abyss would either be financially costing, or just to humiliating). So they, and we, are stuck with it.

It's a shame, but hey! Plenty of AAA betas coming up shortly.

 

Wouldn't cost them anything.  The level 50 quest still exists..is an on/off flag.

Secondly...Daum EU can do very little with the game...they just give it us.....PA still the developers...and Daum Eu give us what PA give them.

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Posted (edited)

I would like to present this idea to the community at hand, and while it may be something touching the ever heated topic, I am hoping for at least a fair amount of review and thought on this as the lines are drawn for toggles, pve/pvp server, and reenabling the quest of 50.  Though I do like myself personally the re-enabled 50 idea, it negates that people forget is that when we all hit 50, the PVE player will want to Awaken... and the fighting will begin again.  What I purpose is only simply tweaks the the current rule-set, allowing the both to continue to those true to their playstyle.  Without further ado, I present this, and to the CMs/Mods, hoping this is okay to get some views in General... it can be moved if needed :D  If the response is just negative, I will ask for closure :(

Player

As we know, the Karma system is in place positive to negative.  The PVE player would like a toggle for this, immune them from PVP, while the PVP player has that it killed the immersion.  I agree with this, as a PVE player, however I think we can find balance here.  The solution is this, proposed in the Karma 2.0 system by allowing one additional to the white while adjusting the yellow.  Keep in mind, the toggle in the game already exists, you have to activate it to PVP, it just does not immune a player who is not.

  • The adjustment would be that the white player is now between 300k > 250k, a player in this range is immuned to PVP for the most part.  There is exceptions to this, which will explained further.  (Basically, if you want the rules as is, all you have to do is stay in the contested zone... explained below)
  • Yellow player - Red, the remaining apply

Zones

One of the chief complaints is that if a player is immuned, the griefing of farming can occur.  Here is a possible solution to this, using data of the farm zone popularity and the Combat Zone, and as above this is where a white player can have their PVE only buff removed.

  • Using the Combat Zone, data can be used to essentially create "districts" in popular and non popular farm zones, where a gauge is added to the district determining the saturation of active players killing mobs.  The more popular, the easier the saturation is progressed, which shows on the screen in possibly a bar
  • A player, just passing through or say gathering, does not count to the equation, the player has to be engaged in active PVE mob fighting
  • Once the saturation of the zone is reached, players receive a warning that is more directed to white players, that the threshold is reached, and have 45 seconds to leave the zone.  If they stay, the immunity is removed and the existing rules that they can be PKed.  And also, if reached, they would need to be out of the zone for 10 minutes for it to reset itself.  (There is no reset, if they are fighting in the zone they have to leave to be safe as they have been counted as active)
  • If you stay, and engage a player, you will suffer the Karma penalty, and all of the regular rules now apply.

This is just an idea, not an attempt to trigger anything.  If you think this might be something solid, let it be known.  

 

 

 

I think this system is a bit to much for daum to do, if they wanted to completely redo the system then they would have done it by now. 

Fixing the karma system really isn't that hard, you would just need to make 3 basic changes to eliminate 90% of the issues.

1. Make it so you have to flag to fight back or attack a red person.

2. Make it so that if both players are flagged you don't lose anything except for exp.

3. Remove all negative penalties for dying/being red except exp loss, being red should still have bonus exp loss. (you can take this a step further and make exp loss reduced when both are flagged.)

I think that these changes would be easy enough to implement and would encourage health competition for grind zones while protecting the "innocent" players from ganking. The system would still not be perfect and can be easily abused but it would still be a million times better then what we have now. I would give players that die in pvp a debuff that allows them to be killed for no karma penalties for the next 30 minutes to prevent abuse. This would help stop the people who keep coming back and don't care about exp, or the people who would abuse the actually flagging mechanics to get you to lose karma. If someone is being camped because of this debuff then they would just need to go back to town.

If you would like me to explain exactly why I proposed these changes and their effects then respond and I will go into further detail. If no one gives a ----- and just wants to vent about the system then I will save it for another day.

Note: I would also like to point out that this is not PvE vs. PvP, these are players who only do life skills and hate pvp vs everyone else.

 

Edited by NamePending

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Posted

Wouldn't cost them anything.  The level 50 quest still exists..is an on/off flag.

Secondly...Daum EU can do very little with the game...they just give it us.....PA still the developers...and Daum Eu give us what PA give them.

Too simplistic. There's the karma changes as well, the gank level change etc.

And that's my point, it's not Daum who do it, it's PA, so Daum must have requested those changes......now the rest of my post makes sense to you? :)

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Posted

Too simplistic. There's the karma changes as well, the gank level change etc.

And that's my point, it's not Daum who do it, it's PA, so Daum must have requested those changes......now the rest of my post makes sense to you? :)

No really no (sorry lol)...

Two different game builds.  They just give Daum EU the Korean build...they upload to the servers, we have a different build.  Job done.  It is that simple.  Would also be a lot easier for PA to have us usng the same exact build...they only have to worry about changes to Russia then.

Of course...the forum kiddy whine fallout that would follow is another matter altogether lmao.  But then, would that be different to any other day around here on any other subject lol.

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Posted (edited)

No really no (sorry lol)...

Two different game builds.  They just give Daum EU the Korean build...they upload to the servers, we have a different build.  Job done.  It is that simple.  Would also be a lot easier for PA to have us usng the same exact build...they only have to worry about changes to Russia then.

Of course...the forum kiddy whine fallout that would follow is another matter altogether lmao.  But then, would that be different to any other day around here on any other subject lol.

You're completely missing my point dude, you're saying exactly what I said in the first post.

So, no, obviously it didn't make it clear to you. Oh well, c'est la vie.

And FYI, nothing in life is ever "just that simple". Save you a lot of pain in the future to remember that :).

Edited by Keth

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