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About listening to the community.

46 posts in this topic

Posted

That's the stupidest thing I've heard you say, so I hope that's you trolling again. x_X

Nope, I 100% think things should be kept on the forums...call it stupid if you want.

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Posted

Nope, I 100% think things should be kept on the forums...call it stupid if you want.

So they should listen to basically 2% of the playerbase when the game actually launches. This is the first time I've ever really spoken out on forums nearly this much. And I've played MMO's for MANY years. And I'm a vocal AF bastard about it too. 90% of players won't and will continue to not do so. The forums are not and will never be the only place they look for feedback and rightfully so.

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Posted

And when those who don't voice their opinions should be even taken into consideration? No... just no.

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Posted

So they should listen to basically 2% of the playerbase when the game actually launches. This is the first time I've ever really spoken out on forums nearly this much. And I've played MMO's for MANY years. And I'm a vocal AF bastard about it too. 90% of players won't and will continue to not do so. The forums are not and will never be the only place they look for feedback and rightfully so.

Eh...I feel like this is their forum, this is the company forums...this is where community polls should be...there is just no policing and ensuring polls and discussions are correct outside of the community.   

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Posted

Hey folks i do hope you read this.

The forums are not all players. They are only the vocal part of our community. So instead of only focusing on getting feedback from forums i really really hope you guys start making ingame surveys what people like and dislike. This whole thing is going the same direction as the KR version. You could basically 1:1 take threads from them and copypaste them here and we would have the same discussions all over. I hope you won't do the same mistake as in KR and listen to just 15% of the community or maybe even less. In fact i would have hoped we would get a true sandbox mmorpg but considering that would be a niche that is probably impossible. So even if you are going to take suggestions from players at least take the opinion of all into consideration. 

I think we will be fine.  You need a vocal part of the community to keep the @CM_Jouska on his toes and in constant talks with devs about issues we notice, which I think he is doing a fine job so far, and then the "players that just play" community can just be your testing fodder.

True Sandbox MMOs are long gone unfortunately.  The draw for an audience is smaller nowadays.  It is much easier for companies to develop a game with a linear mindset because it hits more consumers.

 

I think the surveys will surprise DAUM a bit about what the majority wants but just because 51% want something, does not mean you should make the change.

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Posted

So they should listen to basically 2% of the playerbase when the game actually launches. This is the first time I've ever really spoken out on forums nearly this much. And I've played MMO's for MANY years. And I'm a vocal AF bastard about it too. 90% of players won't and will continue to not do so. The forums are not and will never be the only place they look for feedback and rightfully so.

+1

 

Forums to me were always just a place to post screenshots of me teabagging a players corpse to stir up a little fun PvP drama.

The majority of this community though has been pretty chill, from JP, KR, etc I would like to think most people just want to enjoy the game for what it is with minor tweaks to just stimulate some longevity.  

 

Would you play BDO if the base game did not change AT ALL?  I would still play it  

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Posted (edited)

The point is, a survey - no matter how well thought out and built, will never provide accurate information. It's just statistics. Do you even remember what questions and choices were there? Do you think most will take their time to write an appropriate feedback, expand their opinion or elaborate on certain topics mentioned in it? That's barely any feedback, considering the survey ommited the majority of issues and only asked about small adjustments. If that's a direct indicator of DAUM's interest and wilingness to make the game better and fix the core mechanics, I can already rest assured the game will end up the same as it did in KR.

Edited by Narcosis

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Posted

The point is, a survey - no matter how well thought out and built, will never provide accurate information. It's just statistics. Do you even remember what questions and choices were there? Do you think most will take their time to write an appropriate feedback, expand their opinion or elaborate on certain topics mentioned in it? That's barely any feedback, considering the survey ommited the majority of issues and only asked about small adjustments. If that's a direct indicator of DAUM's interest and wilingness to make the game better and fix the core mechanics, I can already rest assured the game will end up the same as it did in KR.

Oh the days of being paid to beta test hahaha.  When you actually gave legit feedback and not just Yes or No answers or I like I don't like.

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Posted (edited)

I wouldn't care at all. It's just the fact the majority of consumers have no idea about the issues within the game; PA/DAUM is basically trying to sell them a defective product, hoping they will actually buy it and won't find out. Worst of all, they seem to be aware of those issues, but remain reluctant to voice that, nor make appropriate changes that could basically make this game a trully great mmorpg for everyone to enjoy and it's that exact thing which bugs me the most.

Majority of consumers? They couldn't care at all. People got so used to modern mmorpg's being so streamlined towards crowds of casuals, being basically carbon copies of any previous successful game with no sort of innovation at all. They have the money, they will buy everything as long as it's preety and gives them something to occupy their minds for another month or two. Me? I want longevity. I want a game, I could cherish again for years, along with it's community, all the guilds and people who actually take their time to make it a better experience for everyone. I want a game I could be proud to be a part of.

Where's your goddamn ambition, PA? Don't tell me you put so much work and funding into this project, so many innovative ideas, just to let it drown like that, because KR playerbase wasn't really ever meant to be your core audience? Why not listen to the most vocal part of the community for once and carve yourself a niche in the west, just like EVE did? I know you can do it. Just do it.

Edited by Narcosis

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Posted

I wouldn't care at all. It's just the fact the majority of consumers have no idea about the issues within the game; PA/DAUM is basically trying to sell them a defective product, hoping they will actually buy it and won't find out. Worst of all, they seem to be aware of those issues, but remain reluctant to voice that, nor make appropriate changes that could basically make this game a trully great mmorpg for everyone to enjoy and it's that exact thing which bugs me the most.

Majority of consumers? They couldn't care at all. People got so used to modern mmorpg's being so streamlined towards crowds of casuals, being basically carbon copies of any previous successful game with no sort of innovation at all. They have the money, they will buy everything as long as it's preety and gives home something to occupy their minds for another month or two. Me? I want longevity. I want a game, I could cherish again for years, along with it's community, all the guilds and people who actually take their time to make it a better experience for everyone. I want a game I could be proud to be a part of.

Where's your goddamn ambition, PA? Don't tell me you put so much work and funding into this project, so many innovative ideas, just to let it drown like that, because KR playerbase wasn't really ever meant to be your core audience? Why not listen to the most vocal part of the community for once and carve yourself a niche in the west, just like EVE did? I know you can do it. Just do it.

Um...they developed a game that has gone VERY far left field from majority of popular MMO's in the west. I don't mean the OWPVP aspects of it, that's been around for ages, it's not revolutionary nor gamechanging and infact most people in the NA market don't care for it, so that's not going to be a draw or selling point and at best draws in a little niche crowd before the game becomes super P2W to sustain the servers or shuts down.

That's PURELY realistically speaking. Knowing the audience, knowing what games do well in the region and what doesn't, it actually seems like PA is doing EXACTLY that. Notice why there isn't a single reference to OWPVP on the main-site? They at all costs do NOT want this game to end up like EVE, which is a small little niche userbase that never ends up making any real money here. It's why they never end up on ANY revenue lists for NA/USA.

You're accusing them of just copying 'successful' games, but you WANT THEM TO DO THE SAME EXACT THING FOR YOU, In YOUR version of 'fun and successful' OWPVP games. You're questioning their ambition when they've made one of the most beautiful, stylish, and addictive combat systems and visual worlds they can, while trying to make a world that can appeal to everyone. OWPVP'ers, Structured PVP'ers, PVE'ers, Casuals, RP'ers. It's an absolute joke you want what you want, demean and debase the dev's and anyone else that doesn't agree and basically just say it's all shit unless they do what -you- want them to do. It's an absolute joke.

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Posted

Would say otherwise. People that don't think that anything needs to be changed will stay silent instead of ppl that are no satisfied. Same as with anything in this world. People rarely say thanks but anything goes wrong they will make a giant fuss out of it. Maybe most of the community doesn't want to many changes. Maybe they are fine maybe not but the best way to find out is doing an ingame survey like gw2 or bns to make the playerbase happy. Because they will listen to the community in one way or another but they should do this in the most effective way if they do it.

The posts in this sub-forum directly counter your assertion that people that don't want the game to change stay silent.  There are also more sources, than the forums, that a game developer can pull from.  One being the survey that they asked everyone to fill out.

Nah, the forums are typically for the most interested and extreme for the game. The random casual player won't go check out the forums so while yes, you get a diverse level of opinions it is only a tiny fraction of your actual playerbase.`

That's kinda what I said, those interested in making the game better.  Only a tiny fraction of the player base probably filled out the survey.  There will obviously be bias but from the posts, there are quite a diverse set of opinions regarding many of the suggestions made.  Sampling will never be perfect and I'm sure DAUM has had plenty of experience softening the ideas/suggestions that come from any source.

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Posted

As Diggerton said, sampling is never perfect. Any methods would yield spotted results that only cross through a select segment of players. They would need to have multiple ways of providing feedback in order to get the whole picture. Forums are generally the most fanatical, dedicated, and heated players you will find. Surveys generally net some of the more casual. From there they would have to find a way to get everything else. Believe it or not there can be multiple chunks to each group that can be wholly left out regardless of the method of obtaining feedback.. there's no magic bullet here.

In short if you are implying they should analyze their approaches in favor of widening the breadth of ways to measure player approval then I completely agree.

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Posted

Nah, the forums are typically for the most interested and extreme for the game. The random casual player won't go check out the forums so while yes, you get a diverse level of opinions it is only a tiny fraction of your actual playerbase.`

The posts in this sub-forum directly counter your assertion that people that don't want the game to change stay silent.  There are also more sources, than the forums, that a game developer can pull from.  One being the survey that they asked everyone to fill out.

That's kinda what I said, those interested in making the game better.  Only a tiny fraction of the player base probably filled out the survey.  There will obviously be bias but from the posts, there are quite a diverse set of opinions regarding many of the suggestions made.  Sampling will never be perfect and I'm sure DAUM has had plenty of experience softening the ideas/suggestions that come from any source.

As Diggerton said, sampling is never perfect. Any methods would yield spotted results that only cross through a select segment of players. They would need to have multiple ways of providing feedback in order to get the whole picture. Forums are generally the most fanatical, dedicated, and heated players you will find. Surveys generally net some of the more casual. From there they would have to find a way to get everything else. Believe it or not there can be multiple chunks to each group that can be wholly left out regardless of the method of obtaining feedback.. there's no magic bullet here.

In short if you are implying they should analyze their approaches in favor of widening the breadth of ways to measure player approval then I completely agree.

+1, gentlemen. or +3 as I agree with you each.

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Posted

c7NJRa2.gif

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Posted (edited)

All you do is talk like the NA region is the only one that matters, but you literally forget the EU market is far bigger than the entirety of NA. Can you actually support your claims with any sort of evidence? I'm not accusing PA of copying, neither I want the exact same thing to happen. I am asking for a couple of rather simple fixes, some of which already had been there during previous testing and/or got removed only because of KR feedback; feedback, which is completely irrelevant to the western market as our playerbases are completely different and share little to no similiarities.

Realistically speaking, I wouldn't even mind the pvp back at level 50, as long as they re-implement the original flagging system, considering the pve-oriented players complain so much and claim the game as it is now will become a single, huge gankfest. It would only prove the truth even further, as once they reach level 50 peacefully and find out what the game is really about and that there's literally nothing else for them to do, majority of them would quit after a couple of months at most.

It's the same exact story, repeated over and over through a majority of titles. Vocal crowd that really cares about the game gets more or less ignored, devs cater to the majority, majority plays, finds out the game is no different than the previous titles they played, they leave after a couple of months for another title released, game becomes dead or half-empty at best case and publisher has to revert to f2p model with cash shop sheaningans and p2w mechanics to sustain a revenue. Modern mmo gaming in a nutshell.

Stable ~20k subbed players is worse than f2p with p2w and cash shop? That's how they were able to continue the development of EVE Online, sustain themselves and their playerbase for all those years and even expand. There's literally an example to follow in terms of business practice, but everyone's just too damn afraid to take a the risk. What's the point, if they are already risking in the worst possible way even before they begun?

It's not about owpvp. It's about a healthy game with a healthy playerbase, one that's able to sustain itself for years to come. BDO might have innovative ideas and remains incredibly immersive, but due to KR currently falls flat on some of the most basic principles, which actually decide about game's success and longivity.

Edited by Narcosis

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Posted (edited)

Apparently OP thought that one thread wasn't enough for this topic.

Since we're repeating the conversation again, we should at least rehash some of the discussion in that thread.  

You're likely to get the same range of feedback from forums as you would any other source.  While you have a much broader base of players to potentially get information from when asking every single player that was in the CBT to fill out a survey, you aren't guaranteed that you'll get increased participation.  Those on the forums tend to be the most active and motivated to make the game better.  

Statistics is a funny beast, and any sample will have bias.  You also assume that the forums is the primary source of feedback, which you have absolutely no evidence to support that because a) DAUM hasn't stated or alluded to such and b) you don't have access to the survey results because they haven't released them (if they ever do).  Because you have no access to the survey results means you have no idea if the survey results are similar to the posts you see on these forums.

Another benefit of the forums is it allows for discussion and debate where people with certain ideas can hash out their suggestions in a collaborative way.  They can modify their own or even change their idea of what they want to see.

In the end, you're just pissing into the wind.

Edited by Diggerton

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Posted (edited)

Money doesn't come from minorities.

Apart from the pre-order, the majority of the revenues from cash-shops absolutely come from a minority of the gaming population. There have been many articles showing that only a portion of gamers actually use micro-transactions while a very small portion of the players make up for a giant portion of micro-transaction revenues, termed Whales.

Edited by Diggerton
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Posted (edited)

As someone who plays LLSIF in the meanwhile, I can only state this is true as well, where a small circle of active players make up for the large portion of revenue, literally spending hundreds, if not thousands every month. You can't compete with them, either, as their idol teams have a 100-150k+ point difference on average, compared to the luckiest of non-paying players. This means they will always easily top at all the events and nab all the rewards, while the rest has to fight against each other to reach the highest reward tiers and everything is occupied with a lot of work and effort, to the point some of them literally quit in tears when they don't manage to reach theirs, or suddenly get pushed off seconds before the event ends.

Majority doesn't pay at all; they are either reluctant to spend money on virtual items (because they actually can't afford them), or want everything for free. It's the master race 1%, that makes the biggest difference and this is how big the gap between paying and non-paying customers grew over the years.

Edited by Narcosis

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Posted

OP your avatar looks like a doll on crack :D

Thanks ;D

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Posted

Apparently OP thought that one thread wasn't enough for this topic.

Since we're repeating the conversation again, we should at least rehash some of the discussion in that thread.  

You're likely to get the same range of feedback from forums as you would any other source.  While you have a much broader base of players to potentially get information from when asking every single player that was in the CBT to fill out a survey, you aren't guaranteed that you'll get increased participation.  Those on the forums tend to be the most active and motivated to make the game better.  

Statistics is a funny beast, and any sample will have bias.  You also assume that the forums is the primary source of feedback, which you have absolutely no evidence to support that because a) DAUM hasn't stated or alluded to such and b) you don't have access to the survey results because they haven't released them (if they ever do).  Because you have no access to the survey results means you have no idea if the survey results are similar to the posts you see on these forums.

Another benefit of the forums is it allows for discussion and debate where people with certain ideas can hash out their suggestions in a collaborative way.  They can modify their own or even change their idea of what they want to see.

In the end, you're just pissing into the wind.

I am sorry about this i saw the suggestion thread to late.. And forgot to make a link from there to the general discussion one. But they got merged so everything is fine :D

About the rest : 1. I do know from BNS and GW2 that surveys had a great impact and many people wanted stuff that was suggested and loudly voiced differently in the forums. If you played either (bns on jp/kr/tw) than you would know. Surveys will show what the majority wants and i do know most people will give their opinion if confronted like this. At least every forum guy will give one.

2.  Yes i assume that the forums are the primary source of feedback because any other type of feedback i can take advantage of is missing. Proof enough? And yes i don't know how it will be with Black Desert Online , but i am pretty sure it is better to double check if everyone wants a change/"improvement" suggested in the forums. And of course i don't have survey results for now but they can be asked for like the community did with gw2. They might give a short compilation.

3. Yes i don't mind if the forum is debating ideas and suggestion stuff. But just because 500 people cry they want a "childish race" in the forums doesn't mean the 119500 in the game want the same.

4. No need to get vulgar to get your opinion forced on me.

 

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Posted

4. No need to get vulgar to get your opinion forced on me.

Pissing into the wind is just and expression, fairly common one at that.  Vulgar?...lol, not really. 

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