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"I don't have to be nice to you"

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Posted

Yet it is illogical to presume that people who do not follow real life morals in a video game are immoral/doing something wrong, which is certainly what some people believe. 

Re: Morality in Games

I'm playing the Division and I'm shooting people left and right.  I'm running in the Dark Zone and I'm capping other agents left and right because, hey, the Dark Zone is PVPVE.  I'm taking their stuff and I'm keeping it because the game mechanics allow me to.  Killing other player's characters and taking their stuff is part of the game, it's part of the mechanics.  I surely don't ~have to~ (I could play exclusively PVE there) but I can.

There is a difference though, with a game like that, is that I, the Meatbag at the Computer, have a variety of motives and reasons for what I'm doing.  Am I shooting this guy just as he's extracting his stuff because I want that stuff for myself or because I want to DENY it to him?  Am I shooting that guy who's fighting PVE because I want to gain something (ie kill them myself later) or because I want to Take Something Away from him without benefiting myself?

Sure, you can make the case that "resources are finite" and as such denying it to the competition is as good as gaining it for yourself.  The problem is that none of that applies to 99% of video games.  Resources respawn.  More mobs drop more loot.  The odds in The Division of seeing the same person later in some kind of Direct PVP combat are small and drop to 0 over time.  I can't reasonably justify "Just to Deny" as moral in a video game.  "I want it for me"? Now that's moral because the whole point of the game is gaining.

What we really need to do is to look at something that is much harder to deal with:  Intent.

As another example, when you look at the Federal Law in the United States as it relates to Murder: In order to prove the crime of attempted murder, the following elements must be proved including: at the time the person harbored express malice aforethought, namely the specific intent to kill unlawfully another human being.

This becomes relevant because it touches on the word Intent.  PKing in a game isnt' itself a sign of someone who acts without moral thought, however their ~intent~ for PKing may.  To say "hey it's in the game, who cares?" I think is a dodge to avoid having to ask oneself that very question:  Why am I doing this?  What am I hoping to gain?

If the only gain you can show is pleasure at another person's frustration, then I submit the issue is ~indeed~ with the person themselves.  

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Posted

Yeah but if they kill you thats that.  You don't have some exclusive rights on mobs like you seem to think in your head, chances are everyone around you needs the same mobs, especially if you are killing Ogre's of which there are like 8 of total, so, yeah...  Suck it up princess, put up or shut up, its really that simple.

fine then kill me, dont ks my mobs and run off  like a -----

if someone strong arms me for a spot then fine.

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Posted

the thing is, different people enjoy the game in a different way than you do. Some do ask, some wont.
I sometimes ask if i feel like it.. and sometimes i flag and pk or die myself trying to be a bigshot PK'er but end up failing and then cry in a corner while stroking my hairy nipple. 
But that's okay too.


I am a nice person, it's just that my longsword has a mind and will of it's own and does what it wants.  

And sometimes i hear people saying  "you're ruining MY game".. but on the other side, they payed just the same as the complainers have and have the right to play the game the way they want as long as it is LEGIT. including pking people and pissing them off because of PK :P 

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Posted

Hence, it's extremely disingenuous to suggest that not following real life morals in a video game translates to loose or nonexistent morals in real life. I'll leave it at that.

Hopefully this gets merged into my other comment but I do think that the ~actions~ cannot be translated to real life at all.  You're right there.

But the intent of the player is the intent of the player regardless of the ruleset we're following in the game we're playing.

You're totally in your rights during a Co-petative game of Dead of Winter to realize you're not going to be The Winner and thus go out of your way to ensure that NO one is the winner.  That's a very different scenario to "oh darn we as a group are going to lose and we can't stop it".  Setting out to ruin someone else's fun JUST TO RUIN IT I think creates some real moral problems, don't you?

 

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Posted

i dont even need a reason to kill people in game but this thread gave me plenty

 

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Posted (edited)

Re: Morality in Games

I'm playing the Division and I'm shooting people left and right.  I'm running in the Dark Zone and I'm capping other agents left and right because, hey, the Dark Zone is PVPVE.  I'm taking their stuff and I'm keeping it because the game mechanics allow me to.  Killing other player's characters and taking their stuff is part of the game, it's part of the mechanics.  I surely don't ~have to~ (I could play exclusively PVE there) but I can.

There is a difference though, with a game like that, is that I, the Meatbag at the Computer, have a variety of motives and reasons for what I'm doing.  Am I shooting this guy just as he's extracting his stuff because I want that stuff for myself or because I want to DENY it to him?  Am I shooting that guy who's fighting PVE because I want to gain something (ie kill them myself later) or because I want to Take Something Away from him without benefiting myself?

Sure, you can make the case that "resources are finite" and as such denying it to the competition is as good as gaining it for yourself.  The problem is that none of that applies to 99% of video games.  Resources respawn.  More mobs drop more loot.  The odds in The Division of seeing the same person later in some kind of Direct PVP combat are small and drop to 0 over time.  I can't reasonably justify "Just to Deny" as moral in a video game.  "I want it for me"? Now that's moral because the whole point of the game is gaining.

What we really need to do is to look at something that is much harder to deal with:  Intent.

As another example, when you look at the Federal Law in the United States as it relates to Murder: In order to prove the crime of attempted murder, the following elements must be proved including: at the time the person harbored express malice aforethought, namely the specific intent to kill unlawfully another human being.

This becomes relevant because it touches on the word Intent.  PKing in a game isnt' itself a sign of someone who acts without moral thought, however their ~intent~ for PKing may.  To say "hey it's in the game, who cares?" I think is a dodge to avoid having to ask oneself that very question:  Why am I doing this?  What am I hoping to gain?

If the only gain you can show is pleasure at another person's frustration, then I submit the issue is ~indeed~ with the person themselves.  

Even if mobs respawn, it is still a zero sum game. Time is a resource too, is it not? If another player is taking my farm, that results in me having to spend more time to accomplish my objective. Therefore, if I value efficiency, it is in my best interest to zone the competing player out. That's objectively the best decision in terms of efficiency if I have the capability to effortlessly zone a competing player out. Individually, it is subjective whether or not I find it acceptable or unacceptable. However, there is objectively nothing wrong with holding either position.

You're attempting to apply real life laws against murder and it's definitions to a video game. That's your first mistake. Fantasy worlds and real life society are about as similar as apples to oranges at the end of the day, not to mention that fantasy is a pretty big distinction from reality. Fantasy is under no obligation to follow the same set of codes that reality follows, hence it is fantasy - it is what the creators and players make of it.

This is where the RPG element of MMORPG comes in. It is a valid choice to role play a bandit, a scam artist, a killer, etc. as long as it's within the established rules of the game. Malice or not, it's part of role playing - role playing with the freedom to do whatever you want as long as it's within the game's rules. Again, on an individual level, it is subjective whether or not it is acceptable or unacceptable to role play roles that are unethical or illegal in real life society. But objectively, there is nothing wrong with being the "good" or "bad" guy in a video game - because it is a video game and a fantasy world that encourages role playing - making no distinction between "good" roleplaying and "bad" roleplaying, albeit with penalties to prevent people from going completely overboard because some people just want to role play to see the world burn, and it's in the interest of the game's health to set some form of limitations.

You can't seamlessly important real life values and morals into the fantasy world of video games and expect them to be a foolproof answer to "how bad people are." It just does not work that way.

Edited by Serenei

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Posted

You're attempting to apply real life laws against murder and it's definitions to a video game. That's your first mistake. Fantasy worlds and real life society are about as similar as apples to oranges at the end of the day, not to mention that fantasy is a pretty big distinction from reality. Fantasy is under no obligation to follow the same set of codes that reality follows, hence it is fantasy - it is what the creators and players make of it.

 

Actually no, if you re-read it, my issue isn't with the murder (I picked a bad law but my Mock Trial team just did a competition that was an attempted murder so I'm familiar with the phrasing of the Jury Instructions) it's with the ~INTENT~ that defines the crime.

Forget all the other games and let's talk about BDO.

I'm killing mobs.  You come up, and you kill me and start killing the mobs yourself.  There is NO moral judgement there.

I'm killing mobs.  You come up and you kill me ~Because~ you want to stop me from having something I want.  You do not really need to kill them for yourself.  There IS moral judgement.

I'm killing mobs.  You come up and kill me ~Because~ I've asked you not to and you want to prove to me that you don't listen to anyone.  You do not really need to kill them for yourself.  There IS moral judgement.

I'm killing mobs. You come up and kill me ~because~ you know for a fact that I've been trying to get one last kill to finish a quest for the last hour, and I've already changed channels once and you find particular joy in denying me something.  You do not kill the mobs for yourself.  There IS moral judgement.

I'm killing mobs.  You come up and you kill me ~because~ you want to kill them for yourself.  No moral judgement.

See the difference that ~intent~ plays into each of those scenarios?

Saying that "It's just a game, get over it" is the kind of attitude that perpetuates all kind of negative and anti-social behavior out side of the game.  It's a callous disregard for other people that creates and perpetuates other immoral behavior.  "Hey it's not my fault that 1,000 people are going to be homeless now.  I got their money and I did it all by (mostly) following the law".  Sure it may be legal but is it ~right~?  Is it ~moral~?

And of course a game is different than, say, screwing people out of a house.  But why does it get a free pass for being dismissive of how your (collective not you in particular) actions affect others?  Isn't the definition of morality tied to such things as that?

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Posted

Actually no, if you re-read it, my issue isn't with the murder (I picked a bad law but my Mock Trial team just did a competition that was an attempted murder so I'm familiar with the phrasing of the Jury Instructions) it's with the ~INTENT~ that defines the crime.

Forget all the other games and let's talk about BDO.

I'm killing mobs.  You come up, and you kill me and start killing the mobs yourself.  There is NO moral judgement there.

I'm killing mobs.  You come up and you kill me ~Because~ you want to stop me from having something I want.  You do not really need to kill them for yourself.  There IS moral judgement.

I'm killing mobs.  You come up and kill me ~Because~ I've asked you not to and you want to prove to me that you don't listen to anyone.  You do not really need to kill them for yourself.  There IS moral judgement.

I'm killing mobs. You come up and kill me ~because~ you know for a fact that I've been trying to get one last kill to finish a quest for the last hour, and I've already changed channels once and you find particular joy in denying me something.  You do not kill the mobs for yourself.  There IS moral judgement.

I'm killing mobs.  You come up and you kill me ~because~ you want to kill them for yourself.  No moral judgement.

See the difference that ~intent~ plays into each of those scenarios?

Saying that "It's just a game, get over it" is the kind of attitude that perpetuates all kind of negative and anti-social behavior out side of the game.  It's a callous disregard for other people that creates and perpetuates other immoral behavior.  "Hey it's not my fault that 1,000 people are going to be homeless now.  I got their money and I did it all by (mostly) following the law".  Sure it may be legal but is it ~right~?  Is it ~moral~?

And of course a game is different than, say, screwing people out of a house.  But why does it get a free pass for being dismissive of how your (collective not you in particular) actions affect others?  Isn't the definition of morality tied to such things as that?

So it's semantics to you at the end of the day. However, all reasonings are objectively equally valid (or invalid) in a role playing game as long as the action is within the rules of the game. On an individual level, one may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that the overall situation is objective.

The problem for your argument is precisely the statement "it's a game." Why should any player be beholden to always acting out of empirical self-interest or altruism? Doesn't role playing give the freedom to act however one wants according to whatever reason as long as it's within the rules? If you made the argument that real life amorality/immorality can leak into the fantasy world, I'd be inclined to believe you since it's much more logically plausible for a person to impart his or her value system from the macrocosm of real life society to the microcosm of microcosms in the fantasy world of a video game. However, you're presuming the opposite - that behavior in the microcosm of microcosms in the fantasy world of a video game translates to amorality/immorality in the macrocosm of real life society. Even though the assertion merely was reversed, it's logical bearing decreased significantly; it is extremely disingenuous to presume that not following accepted real life morals in a video game causes amorality/immorality in real life society (again, going back to "it's a game"). The best way to explain this is the part to whole analogy - in this case, the whole can more accurately predict the part than the part can of the whole.   Real life is a much better predictor of behavior than its fantasy opposite (it is fantasy after all).

There are no moral absolutes in a role playing fantasy world. Whether or not there are moral absolutes in real life society is even debatable depending on what school of philosophy you subscribe to. People get a free pass because it's precisely what the intention is - to reiterate for I don't know how many times it has been, it's a role playing game in the fantasy world of a video game, which is designed to be a leisure activity/hobby for people to take seriously or mess around in. It makes absolutely no sense to try to force real life values to work in a video game.

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Posted

.   Real life is a much better predictor of behavior than its fantasy opposite (it is fantasy after all).

 I fundamentally disagree.

How we behave when there are no consequences of our actions are the best indicators of what we believe and what we value.  It doesn't matter if someone chooses not to steal because a cop is watching. What matters is if they choose not to steal even though NO one is watching.

You also seem fixated on the whole "If I'm not nice to you in a game I must not be a nice person."  That is NOT what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that if you, the player are making the choice to be "not nice" to me, the other player, ~simply because you want to hurt me the other player~ then, yes you are probably not a nice person in real life.

The morality arguments are the ones that apply when the actions of the player, expressly NOT the character, extend with the ~intent~ to affect ~the other player~.

You said it's about semantics and I suppose to a degree you're not wrong.  But it's also where the morality factors in.

I'm not trying, at all, to apply morality to the characters we're playing in our leisure activity game.  But I absolutely will apply them to the ~choices~ made by the players behind the computers and how their choices ~affect other players~.  

We can, I suppose, disagree here.  I hold that there are ~probably~ moral absolutes in the real world that are found through reasoned debate of the various schools such as utilitarianism, Kantianism, etc.  But logging into a computer does not REMOVE you as a person, as flesh and blood, from the world.  Your actions still have consequence.  To deny this, is to deny reality.  How you interact, ~through~ the medium of the game with other human beings is real, earnest interaction.

You and I debating this, here on the forum, are ~interacting~ with each other.  This interaction is between two human beings and thus cannot and must not be divorced from moral questions.  I am totally free to say any number of things about you and your arguments (per forum rules and moderation action), but I make choices in how to engage you because I am making an effort to be considerate of the other human being in this discussion, you.

I had students a while ago who played Ultima Online.  They talked about how much fun they had killing a guy, stealing the keys to his house and then, just or added fun, hiding the keys behind terrain so they could taunt him about not having the keys any more.  They killed another guy and built a HOUSE on him so that he could not get back to his corpse to reclaim his stuff.  They didn't take his stuff for themselved, they simply were finding creative ways to stop other people from enjoying the game.  They took pleasure in someone else's pain.

Yes it was just a game, but I still judged their character from that story.  I still found what they did disagreeable.  And this was also consistent with their general behavior in class.  They were rude, entitled and selfish.

It was, after all, just a game and they were just as free to kill him, take his stuff and be on their way.  They, as players made choices.  

That's, to me, the crux of this.  

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Posted

How about those people who get so uptight about their mobs being hit unequip the f*****g ghillie suit so I can see you without having to strain at the screen. 90% of the terrain in this game so far is green brush and trees and you blend right in.

Perhaps then I'll notice you farming 'your' mobs. Seriously you want to claim an area? Make sure people can see you there.

a quick 1-2 second look at the minimap as well as monster behavior will 99% tell you there is someone nearby.

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a quick 1-2 second look at the minimap as well as monster behavior will 99% tell you there is someone nearby.

The ghillie suit is also semi expected at higher levels expressly to help manage PVP combat as people battle over mob spawns.

 

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Posted (edited)

I dont think the comunity here in BDO is toxic at all. Maybe is because I came from two years with Archeage and I've never seen such a toxic, bottom of the barrel, scum community that is AA. When I am farming and someone says.. leave or die.. I say.. no worries.. and I leave the fcuk outta there before I get nuked. In AA I would have been dead before I knew what hit me.. my boat sank.. my trades stolen... and an insult pm for good measure.

 

As a warrior I sprint alot with "F" which is a skill.. and many times.. i end up hitting a mob that someone else was farming by mistake.. I then type "sorry" and keep walking.. not once i've been pk'd after that. I've actually had ppl pvp right in front of me and if is not my fight I dont gank on a flagged dude. 

Edited by valdamus

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Posted

If someone try to ks my spot i PK them without warning, no need to waste time and asking them nicely. It is obvious what kind of person that is if you pull your mobs and he just nukes them down. Seriously just dont give a fk and kill them right away.

Ans how exactly do you want to PK someone who is always on full health with pots while having similar AP/DP stats?

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Posted (edited)

Ans how exactly do you want to PK someone who is always on full health with pots while having similar AP/DP stats?

here are 2 answers for you

1. get better gear

or

2. get the better combos

 

np! :)

 

edit: sry a 3. probaly play sorc :D

Edited by nyn idc

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Posted

i agree with the op but at the same time disagree. by all means yes being nice does indeed make everyone happy but if some one is there training a crap ton then one would see that at some point they are going to get ksed. 

with an added slight devils advocate the mobs "technically" are not yours and are up for grabs for everyone. blame the developers for that really.

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Posted

This game and especially its western publisher does not support "nice". Its all about how is a bigger jerk with more power.

in this game unlike other handholding mmorpgs we r given choice and options rather than be limited by rules, and u make a name for urself based on ur action. Id say thats a strength od this game, the thrill of the hunt.

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For the past 5 days i have been grinding Ogres without any luck so far but hey that's
RNG for ya ^^ it doesn't bother me to grind for stuff for a long time. On the other hand what
does bother me and what seems to be the an incredible hype around ogres is that people don't
respect other people killing ogres and just go and ks them. And the worst part? if i kindly ask them 
to not touch the ogres i am killing 9 out of 10 says "I don't have to be nice to you".... This is true you dont NEED
to be nice to other people but the world would be a hell of nicer to live in if people were a bit nicer to eachother.
They usually end up engaging me into a fight and then getting their asses kicked.... i mean.... i can
just come at u and kill u but does it really have to get to that point on grinding ogres? just get your own srsly sjeesh
I've never seen as much unsocial players in a game as in this one. I am not even a "pve oriented player" i love pvp
just treat eachother with a bit more respect and don't pm me if you're killed threatning me in real life how old are u guys?

sorry for the rant it was just annoying me so much i figured i'd share this here. If you have a story like this dump it here i'd love to read it :P
Lets spread some love 

And why are you bothering us about your little adventure on forums? Just curious.

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Posted (edited)

in this game unlike other handholding mmorpgs we r given choice and options rather than be limited by rules, and u make a name for urself based on ur action. Id say thats a strength od this game, the thrill of the hunt.

To not be limited by rules you actually have to have some basic rules set inside your personality. So how many afk fishermen did you hunt with a thrill lately?

Edited by Kat

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Posted

if I'm grinding ogres and someone moves in to KS they die. If I want to grind ogres and someone else is already there, I KS them or kill them. My ogres. If someone looks at an Ogre I want, they die. 

 

Life is worth less than a soiled ogre ring in those parts. 

you sir, are the lowest of the lowest scum. Ofcourse it's not illegal or anything to behave like a 12 year kid with no social skills but once you get older you will realise life can be more pleasant. If not abandon all hope ;)

And why are you bothering us about your little adventure on forums? Just curious.

raising awareness of the issue. And to try to see if a lot of people are bothered by this and it sure seems like it. Can't wait for the bounty system imma be a fulltime bounty hunter to give some people what they deserve.

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Posted

I once killed a guy on accident. I was on my witch casting on catfish and I saw in chat that I had killed someone. Apparently he had flagged on me and tried to be sneaky but got caught in my aoe. I saw him later and he tried again with the same result, except that time I actually saw him. Took awhile that time, because he was a warrior and put up block.

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this thread turned philosophical real fast...

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this thread turned philosophical real fast...

Sorry about that.

Chalk it up too much time on my hands (I don't want to grade papers) to too much experience with bad people who use games as the "safe place" to get out their anitsocial desires.

 

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Posted

fine then kill me, dont ks my mobs and run off  like a -----

if someone strong arms me for a spot then fine.

Thats what I'm saying, its part of the game.

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Thats what I'm saying, its part of the game.

exactly 

I think we're both arguing the same point lol 

 

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Posted

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