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An outstanding game that sadly won't last. Here's why.


547 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I'll take what we have now. Happy to PVP on my 50+ but not on my under-levelled. Are you part of a guild? We aren't a PVP guild ourselves, but we do expect our members to help us out in node wars. Might be worth checking with your guild if they have any designs there, refusing to help would just drag them down.

I am in a small guild. My guild leader is an IRL friend. He is VERY into PvP. He knows I am not going to be participating in that. I am working on getting my gathering skills up to par so I can do guild quests of that nature efficiently. I wouldn't have joined a guild in this game otherwise. If he and others decide to go full aggro with the guild I will leave with no ill will. 

Edited by lilibat

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Posted (edited)

And you overestimate the number of people looking for overgeared dramaqueens getting in your face at grindspots. The BDO attraction lies in its pve. Horse breeding, fishing, exploration, crafting, interaction with the gameworld.

Except all you quote here is not pure PvE.

Themepark has rooted its design so deeply into players mind that they can't apprehend any other MMO without a strict spearation between PvP and PvE. It's not the case in BdO.

Lifeskills and crafting are not pure PvE. They lack the fundamental versus notion, from "Plaver versus ...".
And PvE in BdO was never designed to provide any kind of challenge. Never. What term do we use when we talk about BdO PvE ? Grind and farm. Mobs are not here to provide challenge. They are ressources. Basically loot pinatas on legs. And like all other ressources in BdO, they are finite in order to promote player competition. Thats why all of the PvE actities occur un openworld, not in instances. And that's why the best farming spot are in the open. What people fail to understand is that even if we dont have "hard territoy control system" yet, coming along with castle and node wars, a guild camping a spot and defending it is already a form of territory and ressources control. ressources which are not an end by themselve, but once again a way to empower a dominant status.

In that kind of macro design, craft and lifeskills fall in the same scope : they are tools, tools for hegemony. The balance of menace and BdO systems are shapped in a way that when someone go out in the wild to chop trees for example, or finding wild horses, the risk factor can come evenly from a mob or another player. Thus, it can't simply be unilateraly linked to PvE nor PvP (this hard sepratation makes no sense here) Be it by crafting more powerful gear (a T6 horse is alreday a more powerful gear), optimizing a chain of production or more simply accumulating a lot of ressources, envetually all this wealth is accumulated for one purpose : empower a dominant position. Because all of BdO designs and features (present and future) lead in the same spot in the end : giving numerous tools to players in order to assume a position of power and using multiple ways to ensure that, but never without riks and consequences, which find their ultimate form in direct player confrontations. That's also why all high efficiency lifeskills activities occur in open combat zone (hot fishing spot for example).

 

Edit : sorry for all the mistakes, english is not my native language.

Edited by Capitaine Courage

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Posted

Yes, as an idiot I need to release my stupidity somewhere and where else is better than a typical post about pvp complains.

You forgot the t in complaints.

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Posted

I am in a small guild. My guild leader is an IRL friend. He is VERY into PvP. He knows I am not going to be participating in that. I am working on getting my gathering skills up to par so I can do guild quests of that nature efficiently. I wouldn't have joined a guild in this game otherwise. If he and others decide to go full aggro with the guild I will leave with no ill will. 

Gathering guildquests reward less xp so you are gimping your guild 

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Posted

First off I have to say I have really enjoyed my time in BDO thus far and plan to be around for a while. This is not a gloom and doom thread. This thread is about economics, market psychology, and why Daum has basically set this game up to have no future.

 

The core of the problem revolves around forced PVP.

 

MMO markets are built around a sense of progression. Especially in a cash shop model, a game MUST give players a sense of constant progression so that they can rationalize "investing" in their characters. BDO doesn't have this for the majority of players, as evidenced by all the threads talking about mass suicide grinding to avoid the ridiculous forced PVP cap at 45.

 

In every other region you could simply not do the PVP unlock quest at 50 and avoid being fodder for the PVP "end game." For some reason Daum has decided that Americans would like it better if they took a beautiful PVE game and forced everyone to play a way they don't have any interest in once they hit 45, with no quest to unlock. This is the one decision that will cause this game to fail and I honestly can't understand the logic here.

 

I have spent literally THOUSANDS of dollars on other games. But, I won't be spending more than the initial investment and maybe a horse training suit here. Why? Because there is no sense of progression.

 

I am stuck with having to face either not getting to continue progressing my character, or being forced to participate in a play style I consider toxic and totally un-enjoyable.

 

That is a TERRIBLE design.

 

It is sad, because I would have liked this game to have been more than just another flash in the pan PVP experiments.

 

When will publishers accept that statistics don't lie? 60-80% of MMO gamers have no interest in PVP. If you want to have a PVP system in your game great, make it purely optional and not needed to progress your character.

 

But if you force it on a cash shop model be prepared to lose your investments, because your game will fail mark my words.

Typical another whiner playing a pvp game, knowing it was a pvp game before playing it and all of the sudden thinks the game should change for him.

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Posted

Typical another whiner playing a pvp game, knowing it was a pvp game before playing it and all of the sudden thinks the game should change for him.

I don't see any PVP content in the game right now.

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Posted (edited)

Except all you quote here is not pure PvE.

Themepark has rooted its design so deeply into players mind that they can't apprehend any other MMO without a strict spearation between PvP and PvE. It's not the case in BdO.

Lifeskills and crafting are not pure PvE. They lack the fundamental versus notion, from "Plaver versus ...".
And PvE in BdO was never designed to provide any kind of challenge. Never. What term do we use when we talk about BdO PvE ? Grind and farm. Mobs are not here to provide challenge. They are ressources. Basically loot pinatas on legs. And like all other ressources in BdO, they are finite in order to promote player competition. Thats why all of the PvE actities occur un openworld, not in instances. And that's why the best farming spot are in the open. What people fail to understand is that even if we dont have "hard territoy control system" yet, coming along with castle and node wars, a guild camping a spot and defending it is already a form of territory and ressources control. ressources which are not an end by themselve, but once again a way to empower a dominant status.

In that kind of macro design, craft and lifeskills fall in the same scope : they are tools, tools for hegemony. The balance of menace and BdO systems are shapped in a way that when someone go out in the wild to chop ,trees for example, or finding wild horses, the risk factor can come evenly from a mob or another player. Thus, it can't simply be unilateraly linked to PvE nor PvP (this hard sepratation makes no sense here) Be it by crafting more powerful gear (a T6 horse is alreday a more powerful gear), optimizing a chain of production or more simply accumulating a lot of ressources, envetually all this wealth is accumulated in one purpose : empower a dominant position. Because all of BdO designs and features (present and future) lead in the same spot in the end : giving numerous tools to players in order to assume a position of power and using multiple ways to ensure that, but never without riks and consequences, which find their ultimate form in direct player confrontations. That's also why all high efficiency lifeskills activities occur in open combat zone (hot fishing spot for example).

 

Edit : sorry for all the mistakes, english is not my native language.

And pitting organized raid guilds/alliances out for world domination against pve/environment interaction guys will result in a good gaming experience?

Edited by Fjokki

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Posted

I bet he just started this thread to farm post counts

7a4.png

Like you guys are doing now?

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Posted

I don't see any PVP content in the game right now.

You referencing gvg's? Then ye

Owpvp is player created content 

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Posted

I don't see any PVP content in the game right now.

....but u know it is inevitable.

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Posted

I would recommend you play another game for PvE, I myself play two. I don't think most people are turned off by PvP when they choose to try Black Desert. You're simply in that niche market for open world PvP, the developers didn't target them by accident. I play another game I find enjoyable that is only PvE and I come here when I get bored of that and want something different. The crafting system here does seem fun so I can see why you would want to stick around solely for PvE elements, but I don't think the PvP has gotten so out of hand that is a barrier to PvE. Perhaps when node wars begin we could re-evaluate.

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Posted

I would just give these people a pve only server. It would last the better part of 60 days before people realized... What am i grinding for...

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Posted (edited)

And pitting organized raid guilds/alliances out for world domination against pve/environment interaction guys will result in a good gaming experience?

Except the PvE/environement interaction guy as you name him, according to the core designs of BdO, is already limiting his gaming experience by only playing a part of the game.
A part which is meant to be a way, not an end. Pearl Abys designed these tools to be fun to use, and with a significant depth, but ultimately they're just that, tools for hegemony.

An organized guild will play with all aspects of the game in order to be competitive : farming mobs, fighting for a chance to kill world bosses, lifeskills, territory control (be it hard of soft territory control) ... And that's why any kind of profile can be useful in a guild on a macro scale

The game gives you the choice of focusing on any kind of activity you want, and just that if you choose to. You can be fisher, wood cutter, cook, horse trainer ...

But the game can't give you a shelter versus players who grasp all of its macro designs and use them accordingly. Because ressources are finite and scarce, in fine the notion of assumed risk vs potential reward is what regulates their flow. The game cannot work otherwise, this is its core design.

That's also why best ressources are set in places where they can be disputed.

It's the exact opposite of GW 2 for example, where ressources are shared (be it mobs or nodes). It makes sense in GW 2, due to the Themepark design and the strict dissociation between features that comes with it, with no ingerence between different types of gameplay, where everyone does his thing in his little personal square meadow. But not in BdO where everything happens in a unity of time and space and where features must be apprehended on a macro scale.

That's also why the conflicts are articulated around a GvG model, not RvR with predetermined factions, to induce a political notion. Yesterday foes can become tomorrow allies (and that's why comparisons with WoW are irrelevants)

The strict dissociation between PvE and PvP makes no sense according to BDO designs, because all features are intricate and designed in a way to ensure a real permeability beetween them.

I don't know since when people began to follow the BDO project, but don't forget that during closed KR betas, even before Daum was chosen as a publisher, Peal Abyss had a far more punishing system in mind. PvP occuring by lvl 20 or 30,  full loot.

Never forget : mmos are not meant to be fair.

You can't placate an E-sport reasoning on MMO's (ask for fairness), because originally and fundamentally,  their base designs are the exact oppositie of what a game needs to be qualified as E-Sport.

Moreover, all future expansions are focused on player competition and territory control.

That's the way Pearl Abyss designed the game in order to reintegrate a fundamental notion, lost in the development of themepark MMOs but which avoids their traditionnal issue (content drought) : emergence.

Edited by Capitaine Courage
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Posted

hqdefault.jpg

You guys bore me. PvP happens in a PvP game. Yes their are other elements but its not end game. Which again is PvP. Dont like it? Then stay in town/safe zones/stay under 45 so you can do all the gathering nd training stuff. Otherwise buck up and PvP or move on to another game. They are not going to make major mechanic changes just so that you can freely tame a horse or harash peoples farming spots by stealing/tagging their mobs. If you dont like PvP, find a new game. 

P.S PKing is another aspect of PvP. That too people need to stop crying over. PvP is PvP, no rules or regulation. Been like this in MMOs since forever and is perfectly fine especially in PvP games. 

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Posted

"MMO markets are built around a sense of progression. Especially in a cash shop model, a game MUST give players a sense of constant progression so that they can rationalize "investing" in their characters."

That's true.  So what progression will you be looking forward to with a character locked at 49.999? 

Gear won't matter to you.  You'll be making silver, but what will you be spending it on?

All the content they are developing is for 50+.  Will you stick around in a game that has no new content for you ever?

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Posted

Except the PvE/environement interaction guy as you name him, according to the core designs of BdO, is already limiting his gaming experience by only playing a part of the game.A part which is meant to be a way, not an end. Pearl Abys designed these tools to be fun to use, and with a significant depth, but ultimately they're just that, tools for hegemony.

A organized guild will play with all aspects of the game in order to be competitive : farming mobs, fighting for a chance to kill world bosses, lifeskills, territory control (be it hard of soft territory control) ... And that's why any kind of profile can be useful in a guild on a macro scale

The game gives you the choice of focusing any kind of activity you want, and just that. You can be fisher, wood cutter, cook, horse trainer ...

But the game can't give you a shelter versus players who grasp all of its macro designs and use them accordingly. Because ressources are finite and scarce, in fine the notion of risk vs potential reward is what regulates their flow. The game cannot work otherwise, this is its core design.

That's also why best ressources are set in places where they can be disputed.

It's the exact opposite of GW 2 for example, where ressources are shared (be it mobs or nodes). It makes sense in Gw 2, due to the Themepark design and the strict dissociations between features that comes with it, with no ingerence between different types of gameplay, where everyone do his thing in it's little personnal square meadow. But not in BdO where everything happens in a unity of time and space and where features must be apprehended on a macro scale.

That's also why the conflicts are articulated around a GvG model, not RvR with predetermined factions, to induce a political notion. Yesterday foes can become tomorrow allies (and that's why comparisons with WoW are irrelevants)

The strict dissociation between PvE and PvP makes no sense according to BDO designs, because all features are intricate and designed in a way to ensure a real permeability beetween them.

I don't know since when people began to follow the BDO project, but never forget that during closed KR betas, even before Daum was chosen as a publisher, Peal Abyss had a far more punishing system in mind. PvP occuring by lvl 20 or 30,  full loot.

Never forget : mmos are not meant to be fair.

You can't placate an E-sport reasoning on MMO's (ask for fairness), because originally and fundamentally,  their base designs are the exact oppositie of what a game needs to be qualified as E-Sport.

Moreover, all future expansions are focused on player competition and territory control.

That's the way Pearl Abyss designed the game in order to integrate a fundamental notion : emergence.

But how is any of that going to stop the game from failing? Thanks for outlining the game design, but you need not look further than AA to see how this will end.

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Posted (edited)

But how is any of that going to stop the game from failing? Thanks for outlining the game design, but you need not look further than AA to see how this will end.

AA tanked in the East because XL games started to mess with its core design, essentially motivated by monetisation aspects.

It tanked even more in the West because ... Trion.
As the bunch af greedy cash grabers that they are, they took this monetisation model even further to turn the game into a P2W lottery cattered to whales, using some of the worst F2P mobile gaming monetisation tropes (with all the psychological leverages they induce : fear of loss, coercitive designs, fun pain and such), but with a subscription on top of that.

To anyone who is interested in game design and how this type of F2P economic model can have a really heavy influence on game development. I warmly advise to read Mr Ramin Shokrizade articles.

Edited by Capitaine Courage

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Posted

And you overestimate the number of people looking for overgeared dramaqueens getting in your face at grindspots. The BDO attraction lies in its pve. Horse breeding, fishing, exploration, crafting, interaction with the gameworld.

Your post is a perfect example of a generation of MMO players who feel entitled to farm areas that have the best exp/BiS loot without any risks. PvE has never been the biggest crowd in games with both PvE and PvP elements - the largest audience has always been PvX. Most complaints on forums come from exclusive PvErs who disavow any sort of PvP. You are kidding yourself if this game got traction in the West because of life skills. They are an immersive part of the game for sure, but it's disingenuous to not say that BDO's main selling points were its graphics, combat system, and open world PvP. 

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Your post is a perfect example of a generation of MMO players who feel entitled to farm areas that have the best exp/BiS loot without any risks. PvE has never been the biggest crowd in games with both PvE and PvP elements - the largest audience has always been PvX. Most complaints on forums come from exclusive PvErs who disavow any sort of PvP. You are kidding yourself if this game got traction in the West because of life skills. They are an immersive part of the game for sure, but it's disingenuous to not say that BDO's main selling points were its graphics, combat system, and open world PvP. 

The forum survey going on right now says it's PVE, then PVX.

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Posted (edited)

The forum survey going on right now says it's PVE, then PVX.

And that's exactly why all the QQ are occuring : people failing to apprehend the macro core design of the game (distinction between PvP and PvE makes no sense in BdO), be it because of lack of information, deeply rooted themepark model mental constructs plated on any game which lands (premade expectations), fuelled with false belief which eventually leads to disapointment .... and possibly whine and QQ when said player can't get over the fact that the game is not what he wanted.

Edited by Capitaine Courage

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Posted

The forum survey going on right now says it's PVE, then PVX.

Non-random online surveys are one of the worst ways to gather data. First of all, the sample size isn't representative of the population. Second of all, non-random online surveys tend to attract people who feel strongly about one way or another. What you get is an unrepresentative sample filled with people who strongly feel one way or another, while most most middle-of-the-road and apathetic people don't bother answering at all.

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Posted (edited)

So you begin playing a PvP game, and you later demand/ask for the PvP to be removed?

And you might be correct with most players not being interrested in PvP, this game fills that niche.

- So why would you want to change this game into every other game? (games that you even poured lots of cash into, go play those instead?)

 

I find the PvP-flagging great in this game, as it gives you a tool to deal with your mobs getting griefed. 

 

If you have problem getting pked in this game, either you are an asshole to everyone (stealing their mobs infront of them), challenging groups that are grinding or in a guild that is in constant war.

I do all of the above, and I don't end up in constant PvP regardless.

 

TL;DR: Don't like PvP? - Don't challenge people and get into confrontations. And enjoy the interactions you will have with other players, compared to the alternative games..

Edited by Sorusi

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Kinda droll how this mob grieving is now a thing. Lets all go suddenly mental about grindspots because BDO.

Well, good luck with that narrative. Alas, didnt work in Korea.

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Posted

I like PvP as do many here arguing about the "carebear" mentality, but can I ask all who are arguing against the OP one question.

Do you regard PvP as something that equals do competatively, either individually or as a team, or are you arguing for the aspect of the game which says it's good game design to allow highly geared players to gank lesser geared players who aren't looking to initiate that combat?

If you are arguing for the latter then why do you regard that as good high-level content? From what I can see, that "type" of PvP content is not PvP, it's about as challenging as wandering into a camp of altar imps. Does that make you feel superior and Uber?

I don't think anyone is arguing against PvP or OWPvP, the problem is when it is unfair-one-sided. That is just greifing, you may as well argue that pay to win is good when people with money just come in and gank you with ease.

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Posted (edited)

I like PvP as do many here arguing about the "carebear" mentality, but can I ask all who are arguing against the OP one question.

Do you regard PvP as something that equals do competatively, either individually or as a team, or are you arguing for the aspect of the game which says it's good game design to allow highly geared players to gank lesser geared players who aren't looking to initiate that combat?

If you are arguing for the latter then why do you regard that as good high-level content? From what I can see, that "type" of PvP content is not PvP, it's about as challenging as wandering into a camp of altar imps. Does that make you feel superior and Uber?

I don't think anyone is arguing against PvP or OWPvP, the problem is when it is unfair-one-sided. That is just greifing, you may as well argue that pay to win is good when people with money just come in and gank you with ease.

Great example of inaccurate mental construct again.

PvP means "Player versus Player". Just that and only that.
It doesn't imply anything else.

The halos of meanings players pour in this notion afterwards are entirely up to them, and they are usually in resonance with sport competition (because that's usually one of the first forms of competition we experience and it promotes values deeply rooted in western culture), which implies some very specific things (what people usually summarize in "fairness" or "fair play", but even that is not enough to qualify a game as E-Sport).

But it's an afterthough, and PvP just means "player fighting player". Specific rules of engagement for each game come after, but the organic notion of player vs player is not strictly tied to them.
 

Edited by Capitaine Courage

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