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Ultima Online - Sand Box with PVP

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Posted

I see a lot how BDO is a Sandbox game and it's a PVP game. I have my biases but I want to go back and talk about a game that I think defines the terms.

Ultima Online:

The game launched in 1997 and provided total player possiblity.  You did not select a class at character creation.  You were all humans so there was no race selection.  And it could be best summed as this:  If you want to do it, Go Do It.

Want to be a plate armor wearing warrior?  Go get some plate armor, put it on, and swing a sword.  Every Skill was independently leveled up as a means to define your character.  Want to cast spells?  Find a spell book with the spell, and then find the reagants and then cast it.  A lot.  Plan to have it fizzle a lot when you first get it and plan to have to practice it.  Want to a build a house?  Buy a house, find a place to build it, and there was a HOUSE there.  Better lock the door though because anyone could try to break into that house and take your stuff.

If you died, everything you had remained on your corpse.  You became a ghost.  If you walked back a town a healer could ressurect you and then you could, if you wanted, go find your corpse and recover your body.  Other people could see your ghost but when you talked it was all turned into "OoooooOOOo" instead of words.  Unless, of course you spent a lot of time around ghosts and leveled up your "Talk with Dead" skill.

While your corpse was there, anyone could take your stuff.  Anyone could walk up and walk ~off~ with anything you had.  Friends could loot your body and bring it back to you.  Enemies could take your things and keep them.

When you attacked someone you started to turn red.  How long you remained Red wasn't based on grinding mobs but strictly on time.  Kill someone and you were red for a while.  I even think you were red after you ressurected so if you didn't know a safe place to go get brought back you could find yourself in a bad spot with the town guards.

Speaking of:  Town guards instantly killed anyone red or anyone going red in town.  They had teleport and one shot kills.  If you were red cities were off limits.  Period.  There was a significant consequence to being red.

The one safe place was your bank.  Anything there was safe.  That was the only safe place.  Everywhere else in the world your stuff was at risk.

Here's the thing that separates it from BDO and modern MMO's.  There was no direction. No quests, no levels, no grinding.  If you wanted to trade ore, you went out and you mined it.  If you wanted to be safe from PK's then you got a group together to go do that.  And you knew this from day 1.  There wasn't a month of doing quests before being turned lose.  PVP wasnt' balanced at all.  There were guilds that were able to form up and had pretty advanced gear and, yeah, outside of towns they were able to be the law.  There was also no native communication tools beyond local speech.  So no guild chat to coordinate attacks.  

When people talk about what a PVP game looks like, I think they're a little short sighted in what it is.  When you flag and attack someone in BDO you're taking a very small risk.  In UO took a big risk because if that person was able to turn around and take you out (or in my case, cast Root so someone else took you out) you risked losing ALL of your gear.  And yes I had swords I took from PK's when they tried to attack my guild.  And yes I lost lots of things I mined because I stayed out too long, alone, and someone found me.

I did play UO and I did enjoy it.  I was also in my 20's and had time to play and coordinate.  I had time to sit in a guild hall and wait for someone to email a guild officer to say where we might be needed because PK's were actively logged in.  

When I see a thread call for X or Y penalties for being PK'd or the "more consequences for flagging for PVP" I think there's some value in stepping back and looking at what MMO's used to be and what many "are" and asking if we want to pay money for the various experiences.

UO had it's draws, no doubt.  It was a truly open world and a sand box.  MMO's have gone very far the other direction and I see where BDO starts back that direction.  But as a consumer I don't particularly want to go back there, or if I do, I want to go all the way back.  Want to kill me while I train this horse?  Go for it; but you'll be a marked man for a while and during that time you wont' ahve to worry about losing a sword to two. You could lose it all. Is it worth it?

 

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Posted

whats ur point

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I came here expexting something completely different, but this is very well written. I would love to see some of these ideas implemented. It does not have to be as punishing for being pk'ed, but this was by far a fantastic system that UO employed. I imagine that Black Desert has their own ideas and plans, but some of these implemented would not be a bad thing! In short, I agree. :)

 

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that would be amazing.... that really would.

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Bad example...

You obviously didn't play Ultima Online for long... pretty soon ppl got fed up with all the PK shit and they introduced a complete No-PvP mirror zone ("Trammel") for every server. And guess what? Ppl flocked to the these zones like there was no tomorrow.

All attempts to lure some back into the PvP side of things ("power scrolls" anyone?) ultimately failed. All the PvP worlds became ghost towns within a year or so and the only reason to ever go back there for some were the castles/keeps they owned over there - only because they could not get a similar good housing spot on the Trammel side.

Bottom line: contrary to what a handful die-hard fanatics always try to make you believe, the vast majority of players does not like PvP and if given a choice would opt out in a heart beat.

 

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that would be amazing.... that really would.

The thing about such a brutal PVP system was that you accepted the risks and you lived to mitigate it.  Yes you may  have spent a week getting that uber sword.  And you protected it.  You used it when you needed it or you kept in a city where to use it you had to have people cast portal spells to get you to the fight with it.  Sure you're a bad ass PKer with your super armor but if you get picked off by a team of Anti PK's, all that stuff is gone and you're just another naked villain.

I don't know if I' would play BDO with the UO inventory PVP system.  There are reasons EQ moved away from it over time on their own PVP servers.  But I think a lot of the hard core PVP crowd would do well reflecting a bit on the history of our games.

 

Bad example...

You obviously didn't play Ultima Online for long... pretty soon ppl got fed up with all the PK shit and they introduced a complete No-PvP mirror zone ("Trammel") for every server. And guess what? Ppl flocked to the these zones like there was no tomorrow.

 

 

I want to say I played regularly for about a year or so.  I vaguely recall the Trammel servers but I never went on them.  At the time the game I played with my friends was the one where PVP was active.

I won't commentate on what happened with PVP zones because I have my biases; I'm more of a fan of the historical view of gaming.

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Me personally id just love to play with the system where if you wanted to lev up magic you did so by doing it, Iv always loved games like that, guess it started when I played Ultima 7 ;D

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Bad example...

You obviously didn't play Ultima Online for long... pretty soon ppl got fed up with all the PK shit and they introduced a complete No-PvP mirror zone ("Trammel") for every server. And guess what? Ppl flocked to the these zones like there was no tomorrow.

All attempts to lure some back into the PvP side of things ("power scrolls" anyone?) ultimately failed. All the PvP worlds became ghost towns within a year or so and the only reason to ever go back there for some were the castles/keeps they owned over there - only because they could not get a similar good housing spot on the Trammel side.

Bottom line: contrary to what a handful die-hard fanatics always try to make you believe, the vast majority of players does not like PvP and if given a choice would opt out in a heart beat.

 

It's not that people dislike pvp, since most people like to pvp if given the choice. People just hate it when pvp gets 'forced' on them while they have a different objective in mind. The amount of salt you can generate when interrupting grind parties at the Sausan's is crazy, not because they dislike pvp but because you're basically an unwanted obstacle at the time.

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Ultima Online was released in Sept of 1997 as a pure pvp game. In May of 2000 the Trammel shard was released as a consensual only pvp mirror of Felucca (the pvp shard). When this happened there was a mass exodus of players from Felucca to Trammel. What did this show? That the vast majority players of this formerly pvp only game preferred to continue to play it as a consensual pvp game on Trammel.

Felucca then became a dreaded land sparsely populated that many players never set foot upon again. Those that did were either pvp "purists", miners seeking out more abundant ores there, or those who couldn't find housing spots on Trammel. I started shortly after Trammel was created and did venture there at times to place houses to sell to other players for in-game gold. Usually the pvp guys there did try to kill me instead of buying them but once inside the house they couldn't do much and would eventually loose interest and wander off.

Just another example here of how most (80-90%) of online gamer's prefer the consensual pvp offering and if given this choice most won't even engage in it. So yea, it is understandable why the pvp advocates here will resort to all sorts of tactics to prevent this from happening. What will Daum/PA decide to do as time rolls on? Only time will tell...

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UO, still IMO the best game made... and I've played a cpl dozen since.

Z

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Ultima Online was released in Sept of 1997 as a pure pvp game. In May of 2000 the Trammel shard was released as a consensual only pvp mirror of Felucca (the pvp shard). When this happened there was a mass exodus of players from Felucca to Trammel. What did this show? That the vast majority players of this formerly pvp only game preferred to continue to play it as a consensual pvp game on Trammel.

Felucca then became a dreaded land sparsely populated that many players never set foot upon again. Those that did were either pvp "purists", miners seeking out more abundant ores there, or those who couldn't find housing spots on Trammel. I started shortly after Trammel was created and did venture there at times to place houses to sell to other players for in-game gold. Usually the pvp guys there did try to kill me instead of buying them but once inside the house they couldn't do much and would eventually loose interest and wander off.

Just another example here of how most (80-90%) of online gamer's prefer the consensual pvp offering and if given this choice most won't even engage in it. So yea, it is understandable why the pvp advocates here will resort to all sorts of tactics to prevent this from happening. What will Daum/PA decide to do as time rolls on? Only time will tell...

That is true. I left to EQ, having lost the PvP excitement that was. I doubt that I am as good or quick as I was with skills and reactions, but I enjoyed that PvP style. I know that it is not a majority, which is why I suggested some of the ideas, as opposed to a mirror copy. I am certain that a middle ground is to be found. As is, most fear PvP as a game stopper. I like the implementations of karma, but it would be nicer if their was a PvP karma per city, rather than all out doom.

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Darkfall New Dawn launching soon.  Shroud of the Avatar is the new UO and it's craptastic.

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Posted (edited)

Darkfall New Dawn launching soon.  Shroud of the Avatar is the new UO and it's craptastic.

DF failed the first time around, I have my doubts here. As for SoA it sounded good, till I read about all the zoning like EQ2 which was an ok game, made to suck due to all the loading screens. And yeah I played UO and sadly watched it's downfall, same with Star Wars Galaxies. People didn't like forced PvP since forever and have always complained about, it's not a new thing. I even remember people -----ing about it in Diablo 1-2 and the camping of rogue encampment bridge.

Edited by Tillerzz

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UO had so much right and was how MMO's where really meant to be, not single player games disguised as MMO's  or low count instanced multiplayer WoW clones.  Blame WoW.

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Posted (edited)

For a more recent game that does mostly all the point you underlined see EvE Online. And while I love this game, I tend to agree, I don't want either to go back to that kind of game (everyone can die anytime and lose everything from it) mostly because of the time investment required to enjoy it fully. and that's mostly why I like BDO, while watered down, it's good enough to get that old feeling/experience without the hassle.

 

Ultima Online was released in Sept of 1997 as a pure pvp game. In May of 2000 the Trammel shard was released as a consensual only pvp mirror of Felucca (the pvp shard). When this happened there was a mass exodus of players from Felucca to Trammel. What did this show? That the vast majority players of this formerly pvp only game preferred to continue to play it as a consensual pvp game on Trammel.

Felucca then became a dreaded land sparsely populated that many players never set foot upon again. Those that did were either pvp "purists", miners seeking out more abundant ores there, or those who couldn't find housing spots on Trammel. I started shortly after Trammel was created and did venture there at times to place houses to sell to other players for in-game gold. Usually the pvp guys there did try to kill me instead of buying them but once inside the house they couldn't do much and would eventually loose interest and wander off.

Just another example here of how most (80-90%) of online gamer's prefer the consensual pvp offering and if given this choice most won't even engage in it. So yea, it is understandable why the pvp advocates here will resort to all sorts of tactics to prevent this from happening. What will Daum/PA decide to do as time rolls on? Only time will tell...

Didn't play UO so I'm just basing this on the information I can gather, so I may be totally wrong. But it isn't surprising that in a game with a basic PK ruleset and loss of stuff on death, players preferred to not having to deal with it given the option. And it would happen in any game with this kind of premises. Not necessarily because it's considered or not better to play on a pve server but because it's easier to achieve what you set your mind on (apart from killing other people, of course).

Edited by WeaselPaw

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Posted (edited)

Wasnt trammel also the cause for the games death?

Anyhow. I think no game did pvp better than shadowbane. Everything was built to solely pk and castle siege. And it was perfect.

You didnt farm weeks or lvl months. The game didnt want you to grind your ass. It wanted you to be awake of your surounding let your inner beast out and kill people around you. You even got a world wide notice that you killed someone or someone killed someone else.

You gained even more exp the more people you had in a group. thats why it was extremly wise to group instead of kill while lvling. Lvling was super fast. Getting equipment was piss easy. You had to be simply prepared.

Killing players would make them drop their whole inventory but not equipment. Special runes that granted you new access to special weaponry and skills/spells were 100% drop rate. People would camp there and fight over the mobs

There was absolutely no grinding,except maybe farming materials to build your guild caste.

There were playermade towns which had npc that sold their farmed stuff. Everything was plaved in a huge open world. No loading screen.

Pvp was EXTREMLY tactical. A zerg could be killed by just a few people. You had classes that had big aoe nukes but also hit your own party/guild members so you couldnt just form 1000 people and clusterduck the enemy. That didnt work. You could pick over 10 races and over 20 goddamn classes and even be a mage wielding meele fighter. Kinda funny that only pure pvp games are so open to customization and sandboxyness

Also, in which mmo could a thief class steal from the inventory? Well in this game the thief could. He could take 1 item after another while you stand next to him. And you dont get noticed that hes stealing. Goddamn what a great shit that was.

Edited by Salbe

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Wasnt trammel also the cause for the games death?

Absolutely not. Trammel was the cause for the game's continued LIFE. The subscriber numbers for UO were dropping because of the forced PvP, full-looting, etc. Without Trammel, and people having the ability to choose whether to be exposed to PvP (and when), the game would likely not have lasted nearly as long as it has. It is still alive today because of Trammel, not despite it.

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Wasnt trammel also the cause for the games death?

UO continued to grow and further prosper for many years after Trammel was introduced. After a good number of years I moved on to WoW because of it's superior graphic fantastical environments to explore. Quite a pleasant contrast to UO's tine tiny characters. The newer improved games will eventually lead to the older one's demise or loss of players.

Trammel (consensual pvp) only improved UO's population, although pvp'ers will of course want to color it otherwise, which is nonsense.

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UO continued to grow and further prosper for many years after Trammel was introduced. After a good number of years I moved on to WoW because of it's superior graphic fantastical environments to explore. Quite a pleasant contrast to UO's tine tiny characters. The newer improved games will eventually lead to the older one's demise or loss of players.

Trammel (consensual pvp) only improved UO's population, although pvp'ers will of course want to color it otherwise, which is nonsense.

i never played UO.

But whenever someone talks about this game its just: le pvp. Well sandboxyness too.

Thought that it was the cause of its death maybe since thats the only talk i hear. Why did it die then? Simply of age?

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Wasnt trammel also the cause for the games death?

Trammel didn't kill UO, but it was the final nail in the coffin for what UO had once been.

In it's heyday it was an incredible game where you would experience huge swings in fortune. You could lose everything except what you had in your bank, pick yourself up and dust yourself off, then get right back into the game. Gear wasn't as important as coordination and your own skill. You could beat a fully armored player in your underwear if you knew what you were doing.

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Anarchy Online, my first MMO

Going 14 years with OWPvP and no problems whatsoever. 

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i love UO.. best game ever

 

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Bad example...

You obviously didn't play Ultima Online for long... pretty soon ppl got fed up with all the PK shit and they introduced a complete No-PvP mirror zone ("Trammel") for every server. And guess what? Ppl flocked to the these zones like there was no tomorrow.

All attempts to lure some back into the PvP side of things ("power scrolls" anyone?) ultimately failed. All the PvP worlds became ghost towns within a year or so and the only reason to ever go back there for some were the castles/keeps they owned over there - only because they could not get a similar good housing spot on the Trammel side.

Bottom line: contrary to what a handful die-hard fanatics always try to make you believe, the vast majority of players does not like PvP and if given a choice would opt out in a heart beat.

 

Except, its NOT a bad example. It's a really good example. There's a reason Ultima Online is going on 20 years old and STILL has subscribers and countless Freeshard spinoffs.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Ultima Online is the "best game EVAR", because, honestly, it's dated and sometimes cumbersome to play for extended amounts of time. That said, Ultima Online had something that others, like BDO do not.

 

That something is internal balance. I don't mean balance in and of PvP itself, but BETWEEN PvP and PvE as a whole. There was a definite risk and reward system at play, that kept the playerbase as a whole, more or less, evened out and in check.

 

PvP was not a decision that was come to lightly. Everytime you brandished your sword against another player, you risked losing everything you had worked for. But, depending on your target, you also stood to gain a lot too. The point is that PvP took more thought than "see a guy, kill a guy". You had to be picky, and you had to be careful, on BOTH sides of the bar. This created an environment that was dangerous, but not so dangerous that criminals could rule the land - not without repercussions. This kept rampant KoS and PK behavior in check. Sure, it still happened, but it wasn't a cluster-----. It all came down to risk versus reward.

 

The distinction people today fail to make is that just because a game offers PvP as an option, doesn't mean the land is lawless.

 

Currently, in BDO, the land is lawless. There's not enough punishment for being a lawless character. There's plenty of reward, but wheres the risk? This has created a situation where PK is being engaged in for fun or bragging rights, instead of for gain, more times than not.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting PvPers and PKers drop their inventories on death. But, stricter penalty? Absolutely. This could be done in any number of ways, from incentive to hunt the lawless, down to actual jailtime for lawlessness (when caught by the authorities). Anytime you create a scenario where the reward far outweighs the risk, you're going to end up with a situation where people are getting trolled just for the sake of being trolled. It's that simple.

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Posted (edited)

Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting PvPers and PKers drop their inventories on death. But, stricter penalty? Absolutely. This could be done in any number of ways, from incentive to hunt the lawless, down to actual jailtime for lawlessness (when caught by the authorities). Anytime you create a scenario where the reward far outweighs the risk, you're going to end up with a situation where people are getting trolled just for the sake of being trolled. It's that simple.

Jail times and a bounty system are coming to BDO, but whether or not that will discourage random PK'ing is yet to be seen.

I'm thinking it probably will not, given that the jail will be escapable, not to mention there will be a red-only town providing red players a place of their own.

If you give players the ability to be an outlaw they will take it. The popularity of ArcheAge's pirate faction proved that (as well as showing the ineffectiveness of an escapable prison as a deterrent).

Edited by scau
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I see a lot how BDO is a Sandbox game and it's a PVP game. I have my biases but I want to go back and talk about a game that I think defines the terms.

Ultima Online:

The game launched in 1997 and provided total player possiblity.  You did not select a class at character creation.  You were all humans so there was no race selection.  And it could be best summed as this:  If you want to do it, Go Do It.

Want to be a plate armor wearing warrior?  Go get some plate armor, put it on, and swing a sword.  Every Skill was independently leveled up as a means to define your character.  Want to cast spells?  Find a spell book with the spell, and then find the reagants and then cast it.  A lot.  Plan to have it fizzle a lot when you first get it and plan to have to practice it.  Want to a build a house?  Buy a house, find a place to build it, and there was a HOUSE there.  Better lock the door though because anyone could try to break into that house and take your stuff.

If you died, everything you had remained on your corpse.  You became a ghost.  If you walked back a town a healer could ressurect you and then you could, if you wanted, go find your corpse and recover your body.  Other people could see your ghost but when you talked it was all turned into "OoooooOOOo" instead of words.  Unless, of course you spent a lot of time around ghosts and leveled up your "Talk with Dead" skill.

While your corpse was there, anyone could take your stuff.  Anyone could walk up and walk ~off~ with anything you had.  Friends could loot your body and bring it back to you.  Enemies could take your things and keep them.

When you attacked someone you started to turn red.  How long you remained Red wasn't based on grinding mobs but strictly on time.  Kill someone and you were red for a while.  I even think you were red after you ressurected so if you didn't know a safe place to go get brought back you could find yourself in a bad spot with the town guards.

Speaking of:  Town guards instantly killed anyone red or anyone going red in town.  They had teleport and one shot kills.  If you were red cities were off limits.  Period.  There was a significant consequence to being red.

The one safe place was your bank.  Anything there was safe.  That was the only safe place.  Everywhere else in the world your stuff was at risk.

Here's the thing that separates it from BDO and modern MMO's.  There was no direction. No quests, no levels, no grinding.  If you wanted to trade ore, you went out and you mined it.  If you wanted to be safe from PK's then you got a group together to go do that.  And you knew this from day 1.  There wasn't a month of doing quests before being turned lose.  PVP wasnt' balanced at all.  There were guilds that were able to form up and had pretty advanced gear and, yeah, outside of towns they were able to be the law.  There was also no native communication tools beyond local speech.  So no guild chat to coordinate attacks.  

When people talk about what a PVP game looks like, I think they're a little short sighted in what it is.  When you flag and attack someone in BDO you're taking a very small risk.  In UO took a big risk because if that person was able to turn around and take you out (or in my case, cast Root so someone else took you out) you risked losing ALL of your gear.  And yes I had swords I took from PK's when they tried to attack my guild.  And yes I lost lots of things I mined because I stayed out too long, alone, and someone found me.

I did play UO and I did enjoy it.  I was also in my 20's and had time to play and coordinate.  I had time to sit in a guild hall and wait for someone to email a guild officer to say where we might be needed because PK's were actively logged in.  

When I see a thread call for X or Y penalties for being PK'd or the "more consequences for flagging for PVP" I think there's some value in stepping back and looking at what MMO's used to be and what many "are" and asking if we want to pay money for the various experiences.

UO had it's draws, no doubt.  It was a truly open world and a sand box.  MMO's have gone very far the other direction and I see where BDO starts back that direction.  But as a consumer I don't particularly want to go back there, or if I do, I want to go all the way back.  Want to kill me while I train this horse?  Go for it; but you'll be a marked man for a while and during that time you wont' ahve to worry about losing a sword to two. You could lose it all. Is it worth it?

 

I dont think you played UO to its fullest..

 

I was red in UO for almost my entire existence. It wasnt time based, it was karma based, notoriety..

And there are things that allowed you to raise it. Could even macro it over night.

Yes UO was full loot, but most of your whiny carebears here would quit this game on day 1...

Darkfall online was similar.. Skill based, use the skill to raise it.

Full loot, yes you can be red it has quests to return your karma.

 

The point is while you seem to have a disdain for those who pvp here for whatever reason, i will agree, the risk is low, UNTIL youre red..

Then the risk is obscene.

However this game has little to no penalty for getting pkd.

 

open world games, levelling spots are a commodity.. They are fought over and sought after. THe ideology that a game like this should penalize people harshly for controlling these spawns, is ludicrous. If you dont want to fight for contested XP or loot spawns, there are other avenues and places in game you can partake in that have less a chance of pvp.

 

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