• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

This game was never really designed with PVP in mind.


62 posts in this topic

Posted

PVP based off gear and zero skills, seems legit

It is OWPvP, not BG based PvP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

That is basically what happened.

The original game they had envisioned had PvP as just one part of a larger overall game, but it wound up not being feasible to create all they wanted. The result was a bit scattershot where things had to be simplified or axed.

Originally there were meant to be multiple guild types (like trader guilds), as well as an ingame religion (maybe Elionism?). One conceptual idea was that if a guild had many religious followers they would be able to use that belief to affect the gameworld in some way, like opening portals or altering the weather.

In an early interview with Steparu (2012) they mentioned plans to have dungeons - both solo and raid. Those were put to the side and we're only now seeing the dungeons finally make their way into the game.

So the game has changed a lot from when it had originally been in alpha/beta. What they've wound up with is something that retains some of their original vision, but is missing a lot of other parts.

Reading that made my heart bleed. Instead we got some shallow construed hurf blurf mai grindspot go way contesting-noone-wants and ghillies suit bs.

Arg.

Edited by Fjokki
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I've been playing for a little while, and I have yet to do any real PVP in game.

There are so much other content outside of PVPing, and at level 52, while just farming for items and not actively grinding for levels, I've run into 2 people that have killed me. (1 of them declared war on our guild and tried killing again but I just ran off)

I know 52 is pretty low to be saying this but when I look at the amount of content that's been provided to us, it seems like the game is 95% PVE/profession/alcoholic-slave-ownership, and 5% PVP stuff, and that's probably even too high!  

Sure, there's open world PVP but it's pretty easily avoidable since people are disincentivised to PK (little bit), and there's only 1 battlefield.  I know sieges and node wars are coming but that adds very little unless you're actively participating with an active guild.

To support this claim even further, the game isn't necessarily designed for pure competition.  Games designed for player-vs-player try to provide the users with an even playing-field where the player with the highest skill can come on top.  You see this in fighting games and MOBAs where the developers designate a huge chunk of their time trying to balance the game so that player/team skills ultimately determine the outcome.

  • This game has hidden stats to try and keep users from min-maxing.
  • This game has random HP/stat gain (albeit not huge) so no two players with same gear are exactly on an even playing field.
  • The gear/class is the biggest deciding factor in any form of PVP.
  • Balancing the classes are an after-thought to the developers, and there's still no sign of any form of balance in Kr-BDO.

So, I don't think when the lead designers were building this game, they were thinking about PVP a lot.  I think they created a beautiful world where people can do a ton of different activities, and they turned on PVP to add a little spice to these activities.

TL;DR: Evidence suggests this game was never really designed with PVP in mind.

EDIT: People are having a knee-jerk reaction to my post without reading.  This isn't a complaint.  This post is trying to point out that the game is not centered around PVP.

Because you apply an E-Sport reasonning on PvP, thus you're defeating all of your followong arguments because you fail to see the innate postulate of the game, and a strict spereration between PvE and PvP, characteristic of the mental set up of a RvR Themepark, has no place here

Your postulate is wrong, because you think that a fair system of rules of engagement is organically tied to the notion of PvP, which is wrong. PvP just mean player vs player, and just that. All the rules which are supposed known and tacitly accepted by the two potential contestant (what you could call fair) are already a mental contruct that you just pour into a concept according to your own system of values, often heavily influenced by sport competition because that's the first form of competition we experience and it promotes values deeply rooted in western culture. Bat that's not what organically, PvP means. It just means player fighting another player, and just that. Nothing else, nothing more.

Morevoer you failed to see the biggest tropes of the core base designs.

First : Life skills are not PvE, That's a common mistake made by players  too much influenced by themeparks, Wow and such. Even comprasions with Aion are irrelevant (they are RvR themepark). They lack the fundamental aspect of versus, from "player versus ...." 
Lifeskills and craft are tools, tools fun to use but tools nonetheless, for hegemony. A way, not and end

They are ways to ensure a dominant position in the game. Why ? Because everything in the game is based around the notion of scarcity and finitude, in order to promote player competition; in order to further spark emergent gameplay (the solution chosen here vs the traditionnal issue of themeparks : content drought). And that's why best ressources are set in the open, for players to compete for them, with notions of assumed risks vs potentiel rewards to regulate their flow.
 

PvE : PvE in BDO was never designed to provide challenge. Because mobs are not here for that. What terms do we use when we talk about BDO PvE ? Grind and farm. Mobs are ressources in BDO. Basicelly, loot pinatas on legs. Thats why they are so easy to mow down. And as every ressource in the game, they are finite.

And that's why they are also here for players to compete over them. What people fail to understand is that even if we don't have hard control territory systems yet (with castle and node wars), a guild camping a spot and defending it from intruders is alreday a form of territory control. It's even territory control in it's more organic form.

Every systems in the game are intricate and organicely tied and once again, just making a hard split between  PvE and PvP is already making a mistake about it's postulate (mistake often done because WoW and themeparks have rooted their models deep into players mind and habits, and thus they replicate the model on every game)

Moreover, every future feature is centered around player competition. Because that's the way Pearl Abys (who wanted PvP to occur as soon as lvl 20 or 30 with full loot on the first kr betas, even before Daum was chosen as a publisher, don't forget that) intend to make their game in the long run, and that's where a lot of the sandbox aspect of BdO lies : emergent gameplay.

That's also exactly why macro conflicts on a global scale are articulated around a GvG model, not RvR, in order to induce a political notion, and thus further empowering the emergents aspects of the gameplay, which fnd their ultimate form, and fuel, in player competition.

Edited by Capitaine Courage
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I look at the amount of content that's been provided to us, it seems like the game is 95% PVE/profession/alcoholic-slave-ownership, and 5% PVP stuff, and that's probably even too high!  

 

What kind of MMORPG is without PVE? I think you're looking at it the wrong way, the PVE in the game is designed for PVP.

It's there for the players to fight over for control like in Lineage 2 (grind spots) and professions to support PVP. From cooking foods and elixirs to crafting gear to training horses for combat it's all meant for siege.   

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I've been playing for a little while, and I have yet to do any real PVP in game.

There are so much other content outside of PVPing, and at level 52, while just farming for items and not actively grinding for levels, I've run into 2 people that have killed me. (1 of them declared war on our guild and tried killing again but I just ran off)

I know 52 is pretty low to be saying this but when I look at the amount of content that's been provided to us, it seems like the game is 95% PVE/profession/alcoholic-slave-ownership, and 5% PVP stuff, and that's probably even too high!  

Sure, there's open world PVP but it's pretty easily avoidable since people are disincentivised to PK (little bit), and there's only 1 battlefield.  I know sieges and node wars are coming but that adds very little unless you're actively participating with an active guild.

To support this claim even further, the game isn't necessarily designed for pure competition.  Games designed for player-vs-player try to provide the users with an even playing-field where the player with the highest skill can come on top.  You see this in fighting games and MOBAs where the developers designate a huge chunk of their time trying to balance the game so that player/team skills ultimately determine the outcome.

  • This game has hidden stats to try and keep users from min-maxing.
  • This game has random HP/stat gain (albeit not huge) so no two players with same gear are exactly on an even playing field.
  • The gear/class is the biggest deciding factor in any form of PVP.
  • Balancing the classes are an after-thought to the developers, and there's still no sign of any form of balance in Kr-BDO.

So, I don't think when the lead designers were building this game, they were thinking about PVP a lot.  I think they created a beautiful world where people can do a ton of different activities, and they turned on PVP to add a little spice to these activities.

TL;DR: Evidence suggests this game was never really designed with PVP in mind.

EDIT: People are having a knee-jerk reaction to my post without reading.  This isn't a complaint.  This post is trying to point out that the game is not centered around PVP.

the game was designed as an open world sandboxy game, with player versus player interactions as one of the main conflicts in the game. This is not the same design as a balanced pvp game, which focuses on creating an even playing field. The game is focused on creating uneven playing fields, level difference, wealth difference, friend difference.

It is designed to be a game world, in which player versus player conflict is always a possibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

This game was not designed with anything in mind.
The developers had a blank mind while at work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

This game was not designed with anything in mind.
The developers had a blank mind while at work.

Methinks they still do.

You can only house so many ideas in a dumpster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The game was supposed to be very open world PvP centric (at least a bunch more than this) since it was announced, according to interviews. But toned down when first alphas/betas released. Especially because Pearl Abyss was the creator of C9 which was a pure PvP game.

The first alpha even had item loot which was removed later on. PvP got more and more punished while reward (loot) was removed. So basically just punishment is all left for pvp.
They tried to experiment with PvE more down the path but failed.

 

The game is in a unstable ground currently. Thats where it is.

Its neither pvp nor pve focused currenlty. Nothing is fully fledged out. You'd have to be insane to play this game for its PvE. But you would be stupid to force yourself to enjoy it for its broken PvP. You mix and match it and live with how it is.

Edited by Salbe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

  • PvE vs PvP
    • Black Desert was made with both PvE and PvP in mind and the game requires that both exists in unison for the game to work.  One is not preferred over the other.  I actually posted this previously but since then the thread has been removed otherwise I would gladly link it.
  • PvP at LvL 45
  • Player to Player Trade
    • Trade is working as the Developers intended and this choice was supported by many threads & polls from the community.
  • World Boss Loot
    • Over the last few patch notes you should notice that Field Bosses are constantly being adjusted, this is in response to Community Feedback and you can expect additional changes while we work to find a proper balance.
  • Single Player MMO
    • Based on Community Feedback changes have been made to promote Group Play such as the new party loot system "Special Deals" as well as the changes to the Group EXP Bonuses and the range at which group members receive said bonus.  We are continuing to look for fun ways to promote group play and as they confirmed announcements will be made.
  • Support Tickets

Above you will find answers to some of the question posed and I will share the feedback from this thread with the rest of the Team to make sure they are aware. 

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/78301-why-are-naeu-publishing-staff-silent-on-important-issues-being-discussed-in-the-forums/&do=findComment&comment=1018761

Just posting this again since people don't like paying attention :(

Edited by Jefferson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I truly believe if AP scaling was pulled back so that the difference between 100 AP and 160 AP was small (and added long cooldowns to health potions to offset that) instead of absolutely massive differences (and I know it gets way worse in Valencia), it would fix a lot of these pvp complaints.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

i'm not quite sure what you want to tell us and why, but ... ok?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Games designed for player-vs-player try to provide the users with an even playing-field where the player with the highest skill can come on top.  You see this in fighting games and MOBAs where the developers designate a huge chunk of their time trying to balance the game so that player/team skills ultimately determine the outcome.

  • This game has hidden stats to try and keep users from min-maxing.
  • This game has random HP/stat gain (albeit not huge) so no two players with same gear are exactly on an even playing field.
  • The gear/class is the biggest deciding factor in any form of PVP..

So, I don't think when the lead designers were building this game, they were thinking about PVP a lot. 

I underlined some of your large assumptions for you.  Your assumptions seem to lean toward you assuming RPGs with lots of character development to differentiate each player meaning developers of those type of games don't think a lot about pvp.

As I said I do not agree with your assumptions but you can deflect and try to pass it off as a reading comprehension issue if that makes you feel better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites