• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

[Updated v2.0] Bounty Hunters, Karma, and Flagging Discussion

4,538 posts in this topic

Posted

The system as described looks like a massive incentive for bounty farming.

Alice and Bob, both evil PKs, have gotten into rep trouble by defending their reserved fishing hole from claimjumping carebears. They leverage a shared account Chuck whose purpose in life is to place bounties on Evil PK guildmembers when needed, to place repeated bounties on each other and then kill each other. They thus quickly raise their reps up to tolerable levels while also collecting bounty tokens, with no risk or cost other than the silver for placing the bounties.

no but that gives you an overall. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

This seems extremely gimmicky and over-complicated.

What's wrong with just porting over the recent Korean PvP updates for the eastern world region, applying it to the entire game world (consistency is a good thing), and expanding on it towards a full fledged alignment system ('good' vs. 'evil', or 'red' vs. 'blue', just keep in mind alignment isn't a faction system), all the while implementing proper PvP incentives and additional 'evil' towns to harbor players who killed too many "PvE players".

That should make it pretty simple to comprehend... 

I fear that Black Desert might suffer too much if PvP is so severely limited, and this 'bounty' system isn't going to help with this issue, I'd argue it is so unnecessarily complicated and costly that people will mostly ignore it, therefore resulting in wasted development time. Stop trying to hold people's hands so much, allow players to do what they want like a proper sandbox game - If a player wants to kill someone, let him, give him a reward for doing so that matches the situation (example, a percentage of carried silver, so killing an unprotected farmer could be lucrative), but also punish him for the act of killing through balanced limitations that are applied to repeated players killers (banishment from safe zones, etc.). All the while, the path to 'redemption' for player killers should not be an impossible grind, either.

Keep it simple.

 

Edit: If my post was confusing, here is my point in plainer text: Reduce PvP limitations, and stop trying to find pointless work-arounds that will not actually work.

Edit2: And just to note, I am now officially worried about BDO and whether or not me and my guild should even be playing this. Way too much over-protecting of "PvE players" in a game with little PvE content, talk about not knowing your audience...

Edited by Raap
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Various checks will be in place to prevent abuse.Examples

  • Can't place bounty with same family
  • Limitation to max bounties per target / time
  • Limitation on max bounties a player can set / time

 

If I can create as many free Chuck accounts as I want, none of those checks will prevent the abuses described.

I'm not saying it's impossible to prevent abuses, but bounty systems specifically are notoriously hard to get right. You need to be approaching this design problem with the constant thought in mind "how is this exploitable?" Or alternatively, "what will the Goons do with this system?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

@CM_Jouska

It has a flaw

PK1 and PK2 are friends
PK1 makes a character PVE1 AND PK1.1 PK1.2 PK1.3 etc
PK2 makes a character PVE2 AND PK2.1 PK2.2 PK2.3

PK1.1-1.3 kills PVE2 gets loads of negative karma
PK2.1-2.3 kill PVE1 gets loads of negative karma
PK1 kills other PVE players and needs to lower karma asks friend PK2 to log in PK2.1-2.3 and removes his karma off PK2.1-2.3 now PK1 can remove all his karma with ease and PK countless more people. visa versa
 

 

Of course this is requires lots of alt characters but its doable if 2 people are committed.

Edited by Jumanji

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

thats why i said no silver reward only karma, then there wont be THAT MANY bounty hunters that u need to fight for the bounty :) 

So then the system is barely used and a waste of developer resources because people won't OWPVP since Karma system is jacked up and that means little to no bounties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I may be misunderstanding the reward for hunting a pker. If not, for someone like me who will never pk, but has always played a bounty hunter, how would karma be a good reward? I love the idea of  bounty system and have posted many posts about different systems. I would like for you guys to look into implementing a system like Moonlight Blades bh system.  http://killonsight.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=202&t=1350

 

In moonlight blade, bounty hunting is a skill line like life skills (there is also body guard and detective). If a player pks another player- the victim is able to put a minimum bounty on the pker. The bounty then goes on a bounty board that is accessible to players who have leveled up their bounty skill line. When a bounty hunter looks at the board he gets no information on the target other than the amount of the reward, which keeps from having your friend pick up your bounty and then killing you and splitting the reward. Only one bounty hunter can have the bounty at a time and he has x amount of time to complete the bounty or it goes back on the board. Once the bounty hunter has the bounty he sends out his bird that searches for his target (speed of the bird is based on the skill of the bounty hunters tracking level)- the bird will then give an approximate location (not an exact), then the bounty hunter starts searching in the location. If he wins the fight he recieves the reward and the pker gets a debuff that doesnt allow him to pk for x amount of time,  as well he is sent to jail for x amount of time.  

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I can't believe the NA/EU team is actually working with the KR team, this is awesome just because of that alone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

So then the system is barely used and a waste of developer resources because people won't OWPVP since Karma system is jacked up and that means little to no bounties.

i bet there is a middleground between barely used and overused tho. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

My concern with the harshness of the PvP system is that the point of this game is to farm gear so that you can PvP other players.

This isn't a game made to PvE like WoW, it's a grind to get good gear so you can PvP vs other players.

 

If you want a strong PvP environment, you should be encouraging PvP among as many people as possible.

This will both make people used to PvP, as well as making everyone across the board better at PvP because they can't just hide from it constantly.

 

This game wasn't made for PvE to be the end game, so why are we trying to cater to the PvE only players?

But PvPers aren't going to necessarily want to be PvPing 24/7 and might need a break and just want to go out and do stuff in the world like fishing/gathering/exploring/etc.  Though they used "PvE" players as an example, it isn't just for PvE players, it's for everyone.

As a PvE-majority player, I also don't mind the old flagging system in that all I need to do is be aware of my surroundings to make sure I don't get killed in a competitive spot.  No harm, no foul.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'm using the money I make off selling horses to put bounties on the people who PK me while I'm trying to tame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

R.I.P BDO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

According to an interview from 2014, Kim Daeil said he wants to see pvp (PK) to occur more during events like sieges. How does that translate so some of you claiming its catering to "pve/casual" only? Seems more like a structural pvp element. That is still PVP. Don't forget, PvP also occurs economically and through other means, its not just fighting one another directly. Everyone is in competition, even when using pve elements to get ahead of someone else.

"TIG: Many players attributed the high difficulty of the game to the death penalty and random player kill (PK).

The random PK was a bug. Actually, one is only allowed to PK other players during Siege War period. Many players thought that it was part of the game system, despite the notice and information we have released on this bug.

...

Moreover, we initially have the misconception that players would be playing peacefully, but we are wrong.

We don't want to see casual players leaving the game due to high difficulties or being forced to become stronger after being oppressed by others. What we wanted was different types of players can play the game differently, and they don't have to compete with others in every aspects. "

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I don't think the new system would work well. This is what i would like PVP to be like. Please @CM_Jouska take a look at this and tell me what you think.

*Player A = PVP on

*Player B = PVP off

PVP Toggle

  • Players can only toggle PVP on/off inside safe zones and PVP can start as soon as a player leaves a safe zone (This will prevent player from toggling it on/off during battles).
  • Toggling PVP has a long cooldown (To prevent players from spamming it).
  • Player B attacks player A results in PVP switching on for player B. (If the attack was a mistake, player B can toggle PVP off after not being in a combat for a short time).
  • Player A attacks players B will result in player A being Marked for Death (Marked for Death players take extra damage from the player they attacked while they had PVP toggled on but the player they they hit had PVP toggled off.)
  • If both players have PVP off they can't attack each other at all.

PVP Karma

  • Player A kills player B results in player A gaining negative karma (Negative Karma players are not safe in any zone, guards will attack them and any player can kill them without having PVP toggled on).
  • Player B killing a negative player A will result in player B gaining positive karma.

 

 

Edited by t0ny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

@CM_Jouska

It has a flaw

PK1 and PK2 are friends
PK1 makes a character PVE1 AND PK1.1 PK1.2 PK1.3 etc
PK2 makes a character PVE2 AND PK2.1 PK2.2 PK2.3

PK1.1-1.3 kills PVE2 gets loads of negative karma
PK2.1-2.3 kill PVE1 gets loads of negative karma
PK1 kills other PVE players and needs to lower karma asks friend PK2 to log in PK2.1-2.3 and removes his karma off PK2.1-2.3 now PK1 can remove all his karma with ease and PK countless more people. visa versa
 

 

Of course this is requires lots of alt characters but its doable if 2 people are committed.

I assume when he writes "player" in the limitations part, that means family (i.e., account), not a single character. The only way to get around that is to purchase many accounts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I may be misunderstanding the reward for hunting a pker. If not, for someone like me who will never pk, but has always played a bounty hunter, how would karma be a good reward? I love the idea of  bounty system and have posted many posts about different systems. I would like for you guys to look into implementing a system like Moonlight Blades bh system.  http://killonsight.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=202&t=1350

 

In moonlight blade, bounty hunting is a skill line like life skills (there is also body guard and detective). If a player pks another player- the victim is able to put a minimum bounty on the pker. The bounty then goes on a bounty board that is accessible to players who have leveled up their bounty skill line. When a bounty hunter looks at the board he gets no information on the target other than the amount of the reward, which keeps from having your friend pick up your bounty and then killing you and splitting the reward. Only one bounty hunter can have the bounty at a time and he has x amount of time to complete the bounty or it goes back on the board. Once the bounty hunter has the bounty he sends out his bird that searches for his target (speed of the bird is based on the skill of the bounty hunters tracking level)- the bird will then give an approximate location (not an exact), then the bounty hunter starts searching in the location. If he wins the fight he recieves the reward and the pker gets a debuff that doesnt allow him to pk for x amount of time,  as well he is sent to jail for x amount of time.  

This looks like a good solution to the reward aspect of the system. And, randomizing your target will prevent a lot of exploiting. Then, to make this system thrive, take the Karma penalty to 30k or so.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I like it, it's a nice system, but what about those low level players who are being camped and simply can't afford to add a bounty to someone.

 

I say let anyone put a bounty on someone that has negative karma, but limit the number of active bounties you can place to one per family, and allow only one active bounty on a person at any one time, to prevent griefing someone using the bounty system.

 

I'd also say limit the number of bounties any one person can claim to one/day to prevent max geared high levels taking every single bounty available

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I may be misunderstanding the reward for hunting a pker. If not, for someone like me who will never pk, but has always played a bounty hunter, how would karma be a good reward? I love the idea of  bounty system and have posted many posts about different systems. I would like for you guys to look into implementing a system like Moonlight Blades bh system.  http://killonsight.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=202&t=1350

 

In moonlight blade, bounty hunting is a skill line like life skills (there is also body guard and detective). If a player pks another player- the victim is able to put a minimum bounty on the pker. The bounty then goes on a bounty board that is accessible to players who have leveled up their bounty skill line. When a bounty hunter looks at the board he gets no information on the target other than the amount of the reward, which keeps from having your friend pick up your bounty and then killing you and splitting the reward. Only one bounty hunter can have the bounty at a time and he has x amount of time to complete the bounty or it goes back on the board. Once the bounty hunter has the bounty he sends out his bird that searches for his target (speed of the bird is based on the skill of the bounty hunters tracking level)- the bird will then give an approximate location (not an exact), then the bounty hunter starts searching in the location. If he wins the fight he recieves the reward and the pker gets a debuff that doesnt allow him to pk for x amount of time,  as well he is sent to jail for x amount of time.  

with only 1 person at a time able to hunt the target im fine with silver rewards, but without a limit on how many ppl can hunt 1 target and silver rewards it just get ridicolous as pker hunters even without a reward mostly outnumber pkers easily. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I like it, it's a nice system, but what about those low level players who are being camped and simply can't afford to add a bounty to someone.

 

I say let anyone put a bounty on someone that has negative karma, but limit the number of active bounties you can place to one per family, and allow only one active bounty on a person at any one time, to prevent griefing someone using the bounty system.

 

I'd also say limit the number of bounties any one person can claim to one/day to prevent max geared high levels taking every single bounty available

What you mean? the pvp level requirement will be like 50. Low levels cannot be camped...

Edited by Alhaziel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I like it, it's a nice system, but what about those low level players who are being camped and simply can't afford to add a bounty to someone.

 

I say let anyone put a bounty on someone that has negative karma, but limit the number of active bounties you can place to one per family, and allow only one active bounty on a person at any one time, to prevent griefing someone using the bounty system.

 

I'd also say limit the number of bounties any one person can claim to one/day to prevent max geared high levels taking every single bounty available

Last I checked they were increasing the level required to participate in open world pvp, so this kind of thing shouldn't be an issue.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Sounds good, im glad you can kill the players trying to collect the bounty on your head

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

What you mean? the pvp level requirement will be like 50. Low levels cannot be camped...

Low in relative terms. freshly open for PKing, not geared, inexperienced, casual players, etc etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

What you mean? the pvp level requirement will be like 50. Low levels cannot be camped...

50 is low level but they should be able to afford it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

My one hope is that the BDO team will be experienced enough to not listen to the do-or-die people from either extreme side of the argument.  With the major potential of future PvE content coming, we have to also understand that they can't just majorly switch up the ruleset later on if more PvE focus is added.  Kamasilvia, for instance, is supposedly somewhat PvE-focused.  I remember hearing that they're focusing more on the monsters and the difficulty of the monsters there.

As I said before, not all PvP players want to be PvPing all the time:

But PvPers aren't going to necessarily want to be PvPing 24/7 and might need a break and just want to go out and do stuff in the world like fishing/gathering/exploring/etc.  Though they used "PvE" players as an example, it isn't just for PvE players, it's for everyone. 

As many have said, PvP players enjoy PvP and PvE content, so it's unfair to make them unable to experience PvE content, or even non-PvE content such as fishing/gathering/exploring due to constant PvP without any major restrictions.  I really like this bounty system, and as a PvE-focused player I also wouldn't mind the CBT karma system, because it isn't too harsh as I simply have to be aware of people who might be lurking around and act accordingly.  I don't mind a bit of PvP risk to my PvE content, so long as it isn't the law of the land.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I assume when he writes "player" in the limitations part, that means family (i.e., account), not a single character. The only way to get around that is to purchase many accounts.

Even if its by player(family name) it can still be coordinated through some guilds if a pool of say 10 people join in. Then you got 10 different family names to clear karma off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

@CM_Jouska,

I'm wondering if all of the suggestions regarding different Karma penalties were taken in consideration?

Something similar to:

0 Penalty for +/- 2 levels of yours when both are engaging each other

10k Penalty for +/- 2 levels of yours when the other player doesn't fight back

...

60k Penalty for > 5 levels lower than yours period.

 

Or some variation of this...Has this been discussed?

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites