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[Updated v2.0] Bounty Hunters, Karma, and Flagging Discussion

4,538 posts in this topic

Posted

If getting killed once is enough to piss you off the whole night, you may want to re-evaluate the game you've chosen to play, which has OWPVP in its design.

Yeah, trust me Ceridon, there are a lot worse games out there for being killed.  BDO isn't that bad when it comes to PKing, thankfully.  The risk level is very low (and nonexistent, if you're in the White-Karma level, you lose nothing!), and ultimately if you aren't fighting back most of the time people are going to avoid you.  The only time it becomes an issue is when we're being competitive, in which case we do have to understand that we're engaging in Player-versus-Player even if we're not killing them, so that's the kind of situation where I consider us fair game.

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Posted

@Tiger_Law

Isn't Red meant to be a punishment? Why should it be made so someone would want to stay punished?

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Posted

PvE Players are irrelevant, With the new outlaw debuff we will be able to pvp at will. Losing gems, xp, etc... is totally normal in a PvP game. You fail you lose things. I actually find the current losses on death too softcore for the moment, you're not punished hard enough for a failure.

im sure u already made an equipment piece to +20 and r fine with it degrading?

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Posted

@Tiger_Law

Isn't Red meant to be a punishment? Why should it be made so someone would want to stay punished?

That's a problem of point-of-view.

If there's no reason why anyone would ever want to be Red, then OWPVP is non-existent in this system. It's inherently flawed without something there to entice even 1-2% of the PVP crowd to max out Red negative karma.

It's a consequence, not a punishment, and there's a huge difference.

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Posted

It seems to be a concern that White/Yellow players will be KSing everyone to the point that they force you to attack them and take the negative Karma. 

In order to kill a White/Yellow player, you probably need to have better gear than them, or at least equivalent. Which means you're probably just as able to KS them. So if you're worried about being forced to kill people for grind spots, just be better at KSing than they are. Then the White/Yellow players have 2 choices. Flag and attack YOU, or leave.

If you're both just trying to KS each other, chances are you'll be able to call a truce at some point and party up anyway. If you're both killing so fast that neither of you can have a good time, you'll both prolly enjoy the extra experience you get from partying.

The White/Yellow player isn't going to come back to feed you negative karma if they're getting the s--t KS'd out of them. They'll just leave. I think this focus on getting KS'd is much more a theoretical problem than one that will actually manifest in the game. I'm sure it will happen, but both people would have to be both very good at KSing and very attached to their grind spot for it to be an issue.

 

Just to wrap this up. I think the reason that going red doesn't have much allure is because you're not supposed to go red. It's like GTA; you're not supposed to get 5 stars and have the police after you, but you can do it if you want.

 

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Posted

the first death overall ingame ? 1. death to a certain person or 1. death in a certain amount of time? 

This was what I was wondering too. Wouldn't it make sense to make it specific to a person? That way they won't come back to grief a specific person either, but doesn'tmean if they go somewhere else they start to loose exp if they are banked again by another.

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Posted

That's a problem of point-of-view.

If there's no reason why anyone would ever want to be Red, then OWPVP is non-existent in this system. It's inherently flawed without something there to entice even 1-2% of the PVP crowd to max out Red negative karma.

It's a consequence, not a punishment, and there's a huge difference.

Some thrive off of the constant PvP that being Red will deliver and directly enjoy it, though.  (Discounting the negative karma penalties, which obviously everyone has a lot to say about) to some people that is kind-of the benefit/point.  I don't think it really needs more incentive than that, though I'd be interested in hearing what you had in mind.

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Posted

Just use CBT1 flagging and add negative karma only on killing blow, why's that so hard?

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Posted

That's why there also needs to be a reason why a small minority would actually want to go Red and stay Red. As of right now, there's none, and all talk is about how hard it will be to gain karma again.

There needs to also be talk about what a player can get if they stay Red intentionally.

Thats why I'm saying add profit to it, Exp and drop rates increased or something along those lines. It becomes an option about when and where rather than just because.

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Posted

There's plenty of allure to being a bad guy in a video-game for some people.

But if there's only risk and no reward, then the game's OWPVP will die like a flower that isn't getting any water or sunlight.

Some thrive off of the constant PvP that being Red will deliver and directly enjoy it, though.  (Discounting the negative karma penalties, which obviously everyone has a lot to say about) to some people that is kind-of the benefit/point.  I don't think it really needs more incentive than that, though I'd be interested in hearing what you had in mind.

There should be a reason to want to be Red, specifically. To be -1,000,000 karma and do your best to stay there for a small minority of the PVP playerbase.

Cities/settlements only you can enter, titles, skins, etc. It will actually be a boon to the overall community who end up banding together, since everyone loves hating a villain too. Most PVP players will actively rather kill those players than some random PVE grinder anyway.

It's win-win for the system, and takes care of its root flaws which keep the system from ever being optimal.

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Posted

im sure u already made an equipment piece to +20 and r fine with it degrading?

But this is red, the lowest of the tiers, you have literally gone on a killing spree. There was either no thought behind your actions, or you specifically just wanted to kill people. There should be consequence for your actions. 

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Posted

But this is red, the lowest of the tiers, you have literally gone on a killing spree. There was either no thought behind your actions, or you specifically just wanted to kill people. There should be consequence for your actions. 

Those consequences should not extend to the severity of losing enchants. That's outrageously powerful, and will be a huge cancer to this system.

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Posted

I like really much the new flagging system overall. With a small debuff applied on the first death of white/yellow players that lasts x minutes it will be a very good system.

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Posted

There's plenty of allure to being a bad guy in a video-game for some people.

But if there's only risk and no reward, then the game's OWPVP will die like a flower that isn't getting any water or sunlight.

There should be a reason to want to be Red, specifically. To be -1,000,000 karma and do your best to stay there for a small minority of the PVP playerbase.

Cities/settlements only you can enter, titles, skins, etc. It will actually be a boon to the overall community who end up banding together, since everyone loves hating a villain too. Most PVP players will actively rather kill those players than some random PVE grinder anyway.

It's win-win for the system, and takes care of its root flaws which keep the system from ever being optimal.

Ahh, that kind of stuff.  Yeah, sort of like the Valencia PK town and recent karma changes to the desert.  Would be neat to see them get some unique titles and skins.

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Posted (edited)

A few people have posted concerns about the time to restore Karma via killing monsters, allow me to pose a question so I can have the feedback.

First let's put a few assumptions in place.

  • You are fully red player, -1,000,000 Karma
  • You are somehow permitted to grind monsters of your level uninterrupted
  • You have average quality equipment based on the player base average

How much time would you want it to take to grind through each tier to get back to full karma.

  • Red->Purple: Hours/Minutes
  • Purple->Yellow: Hours/Minutes
  • Yellow->White: Hours/Minutes

@CM_Jouska First, I would like to say I am happy to see this topic being discussed.

Red to Purple: I think 4 hours of uninterrupted grinding would be reasonable. The reason for this is while a player grinds for karma they will still be receiving the other benefits of farming; namely xp, grades, and drops. 

Purple to Yellow: I think 3 hours of uninterrupted grinding is suitable. The reason for this is at purple you are now cost karma to kill. Since you cost karma to kill the chances of being uninterrupted increase. Even accounting for the low karma kill penalty at this point you're out of the red which is the most difficult to get out of uninterrupted.

Yellow to White: At this point killing you carries a penalty that is hefty enough that the chances of farming uninterrupted would be in your favor. Again, 3 hours seems reasonable. 

 

In addition to straight forward grinding I think placing limits on the amount of time a player is forced to remain Red/Purple may be a good idea to explore. An example of doing this would be to apply stacks of the Stigma and Outlaw debuffs. These stacks would count down per hour and be reduced further if the player chooses/manages to grind.

Here is my suggestion (all numbers are for demonstrative purposes they could be changed to accommodate any time frame):

Outlaw:

  • In addition to the already listed negatives, when a player becomes red they immediately gain 20 stacks of the Outlaw debuff.
  • Every hour the debuff stacks decrease by 1.
  • A red player cannot be forced by other players to be red for more than 20 hours.
  • The red player may choose (if able) to grind the karma back and leave the Outlaw state much sooner than 20 hours. 
  • Every +50k karma the player grinds reduces the stacks by 1.
  • Every -50k karma the player earns from PKing while an outlaw increases the stacks by 1 back to the max of 20.
  • Once all 20 stacks of Outlaw count down or when the player reaches -500,000 karma the Outlaw debuff is removed and the player becomes Purple.
  • Once purple player gains the Stigma debuff.

Adding a mechanic like this to the Outlaw debuff would mean that no player is ever forced to be red more than 20 hours because of other players (no more perma-red). However, if a player chooses to continue PKing they will retain whatever stacks they keep earning through negative karma; but that is the players choice. If a player PKs someone and turns red they could stop PKing and grind karma before they get too far into the red. Grinding while you are not far into the red will take you out of Outlaw much faster just as it would without the stacked debuff. The stacks are only intended to put a maximum amount of time that a player can be forced to stay red.

 

Stigma:

  • Includes all listed negatives in the graphic.
  • When a player earns the Stigma debuff they immediately gain 10 stacks.
  • A Purple player cannot be forced to remain purple for more than 10 hours.
  • Purple players may choose to grind karma and leave the Stigma status much sooner than waiting on the stacks to count down.
  • Every hour the debuff stacks decrease by 1.
  • Every 50k karma gained from grinding reduces the stacks by 1.
  • Every -50k karma a player earns adds 1 stack to a max of 10.
  • Once all 10 stacks are removed by farming karma or by counting down the player becomes Yellow

 

Yellow Player: At this stage it is up to the player to grind to White karma levels. The karma penalties placed on killing yellow players are high enough that only players with many enemies will have to worry about grinding in peace. There are no PvP death penalties at this level so players can afford to stay in this state of karma for long periods of time without amassing any significant losses.

 

Again, these debuffs only set an upper limit to the amount of time a player would be forced to remain red or purple. If a player is able to and/or chooses to grind for karma these stacks would go away much faster. (1 stack per 50k positive karma earned)

 

If people are worried about someone shelfing a character while the stacks count down the devs could make it so only one character can count down stacks at a time. This would discourage hoping from one character to another just to keep PKing. 

 

I've played plenty of games with harsh penalties. From full loot to perma-death. The devs want PvP with meaning. When a player turns red it should be a hassle. They earned the negative karma and they should suffer the consequences; however, they should not be made feel like they must abandon their character forever due to it being impossible to grind without constant ganking. I am not a PK'er. I like the karma system since it helps to reduce the mindless PK just to grief others. But I also understand that each person plays the game in a way they enjoy. I accept that this means I'll get ganked. I also accept that no one should be expected to be forever red. An simple way to do this would be a stacking/timed debuff such as I described. No more perma red, no more abandoned character, but it applies a meaningful penalty to the red/purple states; however, it is temporary.


TLDR: Dont' be lazy. Also implement a stacking debuff that counts down per hour for Outlaw and Stigma. This would put a limit on how long a player must remain red/purple and eliminate being perma-red.

Edit 1: Also lets not have a chance to lose enchantments or items being destroyed. Reds have a tough enough time since it is essentially open season on them. However, I'd like to know what the % chance is; is it 0.01% or 20%? That makes a huge difference too. If it's a long-shot gamble where the chances are 0.5% chance to lose an enchantment then that may work. Any significant odds are silly (and this is coming from someone that isn't a PKer).

Edit 2: Players complain about trolls that interfere with farming/grinding. A possible solution would be to introduce an item that allows players to set a personal vendetta against a family name. The item could be placed in the mileage shop. Once purchased the player can set the family name for the vendetta and for X amount of time the player may kill characters from that family without karma penalties. This item could be a limited purchase per day/week to place controls on abuse.

Edit 3: Incentivizing participation in the Crimson Battle Field by allowing players to use the red seals to purchase karma in a similar fashion to how Bounty Hunter seal will work.

Edited by Dogehn
Added additional ideas
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Posted

Those consequences should not extend to the severity of losing enchants. That's outrageously powerful, and will be a huge cancer to this system.

I agree on that enchants are probably a little far, but if there is to be a big reward for going red, there needs to be an equally high risk.

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Posted

Ahh, that kind of stuff.  Yeah, sort of like the Valencia PK town and recent karma changes to the desert.  Would be neat to see them get some unique titles and skins.

Yes, and every now and then hidden in a forest somewhere, a small settlement that is only accessible for -1,000,000 Red players because it's like "the black market" or "Thieves Den" etc.

Something. It doesn't have to be an incredible reward...but SOMETHING. And the system will flourish.

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Posted (edited)

@CM_Jouska @DAUM 

Well, first, thanks to hear us and to understand that the actual Karma/Flagging System is really bad. I'm happy to see that you are thininkg about a new system, but why ?

This new karma/flagging system is also really bad, why don't you just apply the old karma/flagging system from cbt KR that everyone ask for which have no weakness ?

Furthemore, there still is no interest to become an outlaw in the game, so there is no interest to this system.

Why, someone would become an outlaw in the game ? Why, someone would still stay an outlaw,red in the game ?

I understand and agree that murderer someone is bad and penaltys are made for that but they are consequences no punishments but ath the moment thoses penaltys (% item inventory destroyed and % to lose enchantement) are way to hard, other are really good.

There still is the problem with this new system about the new "griefing" which consist to steal mobs as a white player/yellow player to force the other player to attack you and kill you. Then you die with loosing nothing at all even no xp loss, you come back fast and kill him without any penaltys, over and over.

Thank you very much for your consideration !

Edited by Grimbergen

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Posted

I agree on that enchants are probably a little far, but if there is to be a big reward for going red, there needs to be an equally high risk.

I have no problem with that. I'm saying no one has come close to offering up a reward anywhere near equal to enchant loss. Not even in the ballpark.

Every other penalty I'm ok with.

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Posted

@CM_Jouska @DAUM 

Well, first, thanks to hear us and to understand that the actual Karma/Flagging System is really bad. I'm happy to see that you are thininkg about a new system, but why ?

This new karma/flagging system is also really bad, why don't you just apply the old karma/flagging system from cbt KR that everyone ask for which have no weakness ?

In the PM Diary Belsazar said it doesn't solve the issues and it creates new ones. He did not go into any detail as to why.

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Posted

@CM_Jouska @DAUM 

Well, first, thanks to hear us and to understand that the actual Karma/Flagging System is really bad. I'm happy to see that you are thininkg about a new system, but why ?

This new karma/flagging system is also really bad, why don't you just apply the old karma/flagging system from cbt KR that everyone ask for which have no weakness ?

Why? It is not bad at all. It only requires some tweaking, and many people like it. i think you didn't understand it.

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Posted (edited)

@Tiger_Law

Isn't Red meant to be a punishment? Why should it be made so someone would want to stay punished?

For Reds there should be higher punishments, but the ones being suggested are over exaggerated.

 -high %  gem loss

-respawn location in a different region 

-attacked by guards

- enchantment loss

-inventory item destroyed

The last 2 are NOT OK. No one will ever go red if there's even the slightest chance of them getting a downgrade on their gear ( go look up enchantment levels if you don't know how costly and time consuming this is). Why would anyone want to lose tens/hundreds of millions invested for an upgrade in 1 DEATH?

There is currently no reason for anyone to ever want to go RED. Just being attacked by guards is a harsh punishment as you will die(so lose even more items/gems)  just trying to repair your gear and being fast enough while doing it. Your gear will break entirely way more often when fighting mobs/players, not to mention you'll spawn in Narnia if you die.

Dying as a RED would make anyone uninstall and it's beyond realistic.

There should be an incentive to go RED/stay RED.

Edited by Ames
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Posted

I have no problem with that. I'm saying no one has come close to offering up a reward anywhere near equal to enchant loss. Not even in the ballpark.

Every other penalty I'm ok with.

oh someone was on page 20ish said with maximum negative karma u should have stat bonus equal to additional +5 on ur gear :) 

but well that would be too much imo. 

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Posted

I leave for like 1hour and idiots just start spreading their stupid thoughts worried about a 30 second corpse run.  (OH MY GOD I DIED AND HAVE TO RUN BACK FOR 30 SECONDS)

IF THE CURRENT KARMA PENALTIES ARE NOT REMOVED THERE WILL BE 0 OWPVP. AND THE GAME WILL BE DYING WITHIN A FEW MONTHS SINCE THERE IS NO ENDGAME PVE.

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Posted

I have no problem with that. I'm saying no one has come close to offering up a reward anywhere near equal to enchant loss. Not even in the ballpark.

Every other penalty I'm ok with.

Ive mentioned it a couple of times, but not sure if it was seen. Increase the exp/drop rates. Even by quite a bit. Add in some towns like you mentioned and I think you have quite a high insentive. It becomes more about strategy and planning, than random killing. You want to grind at a spot in red, sure - get more out of it, but you run the risk of being killed. But thats the risk. It adds, makes you aware of how long you've been at a spot gaining 'more'. 

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