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[Updated v2.0] Bounty Hunters, Karma, and Flagging Discussion

4,538 posts in this topic

Posted

I was getting really excited when I started reading about the vendetta system, but then had my hopes dashed when it was toss away so unceremoniously. 

 

I just want on launch week, to get to a grinding spot with my crew and clear it out, just PKing the shlizt out of everyone there. Now, don't say GVG because lots will be unguilded and then there will be more of varying guilds...

 you are my brother. I know I just want to kill everyone lol

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Posted (edited)

1) Will be abused to hell. People will, can abuse monsters and mobs and not fight back letting that player turn red, respawn then kill them and laugh as they lose everything.

they can change that by if your still flag for hitting player you can go red he just giving a example of the pvp/pk/karma method of lineage 2 having flag player making non flag play die to mobs can have griefer flaged go red 

Edited by Selvaria Bles

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Posted

they can change that he jsut giving a example

They can change a lot, but his idea isnt feasible.

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Posted

I feel there should be a similar opposite for players who want to play bandit rolls. Maybe a black society that offers bounties on players that make large amounts of money from trade, or trade a lot of certain items. I feel any roll a player could play in an open world shouldn't be discouraged. I like the karma system btw, I think it adds a consequence that is needed to emulate a real world society. And also, I just want to say, I plan on being a dedicated trader, so this isn't just someone who wants to be a bandit. 

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Posted (edited)

While this idea is great on paper, I wish the developers would emulate Ultima Online's criminal/karma system. This would allow for controlled and concentrated open world PvP that would place harsh penalties on PK'ers, while also keeping a majority of PK'ers away from most of the population.

 

Short Term Murder Counts

  • When you initiate the attack and kill a player, you gain a short term murder count that lasts 30 minutes.
  • Short term murder counts would make guards in that zone hostile to you for those 30 minutes.
  • Short term murder counts make you attackable without penalty by the player who you killed for 30 minutes.
  • Acquiring a short term murder count makes you attackable without penalty by players for 2 minutes.

 

Long Term Murder Counts

  • When you initiate the attack and kill a player, you also gain a long term murder count that lasts 1 week.
  • 10 or more long term murder counts would make all guards in every zone hostile to you.
  • 10 or more long term murder counts would make you attackable without penalty by any player.
  • 10 or more long term murder counts would remove all karma and lock it in place.
  • 10 or more long term murder counts would forfeit all property (except in the bandit town).

 

Character Flagging

  • Characters will be flagged GREY for the first 2 minutes of a short term murder count.
  • Characters will be flagged GREY for the player they killed for the entire duration of a short term murder count.
  • Characters will be flagged RED if they have over 10 long term murder counts.
  • Characters that initiate combat against a GREY or RED would be GREY to their attacker.
  • Characters flagged as RED or GREY would indicate they are freely attackable without a karma penalty.

 

Bandit Town

  • A town for bandits could be added to any high level zone.
  • This town would have guards that are friendly to players with 10 or more long term murder counts, and hostile to other players.
  • This would create a PvP hot spot for players to engage in free-for-all open world PvP.
  • This town would be the only place bandits could own property.

 

Bounty Hunting

  • Red players could be charged a fee upon resurrection by the player who killed them.
  • Red players would either pay the fee or decline to pay the fee.
  • Declining the fee would result in the red player temporarily losing a percentage of their stats.
  • The duration of this debuff would be multiplied by the number of long term murder counts.
  • Bounties could be placed on red players, granting their killer a reward while also imposing stat loss on the red player.

 

Ranking and Rewards

  • Bandits would have a ranking system based on the number of kills vs deaths.
  • Non-bandits would have a ranking system based on number of bandit kills vs deaths.
  • Rewards could be given based on those rankings.

 

Just an idea that I'd love to see in this game.

Edited by Fact

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Posted

I love this Bounty System.

Don't want to get a bounty... don't PK... bottom line...

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Posted

Regardless of all the issues and exploits that COULD arise from this system, it doesn't do anything to solve the problem. The real issue is the combination of a lack of incentive to pk (gain nothing, lose karma) and an unfair flagging system (lose karma regardless of whether other player fights back or not). Adding a bounty hunter system doesn't provide any incentive to start pk'ing people, it does just the opposite.

If before I thought I would kill a player, now I would second guess myself wondering if he would put a bounty on me. In theory, it provides a way for me to regain karma without the grind, but realistically that would require either a lot of PKing and, in turn, a lot of bounties, or no PKing, no bounties and, thus, no bounty hunters, both of which defeat the purpose of the system which is to control PKing. 

A proper flagging system cuts away all the bullshit. I feel like the excuse given in the original dev diary that mobs will get the last hit is something really, really hard to abuse. The defenders will either be running (no where near the original mobs) or fighting (karma shouldn't be exchanged at this point anyway).

 

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Posted

While this idea is great on paper, I wish the developers would emulate Ultima Online's criminal/karma system. This would allow for controlled and concentrated open world PvP that would place harsh penalties on PK'ers, while also keeping a majority of PK'ers away from most of the population.

 

Short Term Murder Counts

  • When you initiate the attack and kill a player, you gain a short term murder count that lasts 30 minutes.
  • Short term murder counts would make guards in that zone hostile to you for those 30 minutes.
  • Short term murder counts make you attackable without penalty by the player who you killed for 30 minutes.
  • Acquiring a short term murder count makes you attackable without penalty by players for 2 minutes.

 

Long Term Murder Counts

  • When you initiate the attack and kill a player, you also gain a long term murder count that lasts 1 week.
  • 10 or more long term murder counts would make all guards in every zone hostile to you.
  • 10 or more long term murder counts would make you attackable without penalty by any player.
  • 10 or more long term murder counts would remove all karma and lock it in place.
  • 10 or more long term murder counts would forfeit all property (except in the bandit town).

 

Character Flagging

  • Characters will be flagged GREY for the first 2 minutes of a short term murder count.
  • Characters will be flagged GREY for the player they killed for the entire duration of a short term murder count.
  • Characters will be flagged RED if they have over 10 long term murder counts.
  • Characters that initiate combat against a GREY or RED would be GREY to their attacker.
  • Characters flagged as RED or GREY would indicate they are freely attackable without a karma penalty.

 

Bandit Town

  • A town for bandits could be added to any high level zone.
  • This town would have guards that are friendly to players with 10 or more long term murder counts, and hostile to other players.
  • This would create a PvP hot spot for players to engage in free-for-all open world PvP.
  • This town would be the only place bandits could own property.

 

Bounty Hunting

  • Red players could be charged a fee upon resurrection by the player who killed them.
  • Red players would either pay the fee or decline to pay the fee.
  • Declining the fee would result in the red player temporarily losing a percentage of their stats.
  • The duration of this debuff would be multiplied by the number of long term murder counts.
  • Bounties could be placed on red players, granting their killer a reward while also imposing stat loss on the red player.

 

Just an idea that I'd love to see in this game.

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/7666-pvp-karma-maybe-solved-just-add-jail-system/
with 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeKhbtog_pI

 

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Posted

This is a really good idea, i see alot of trolling potential in this huehuehue (DW im not the type to troll randoms)

 

Questions

1. Will the person with the bounty be visible in the map?

2. Is the reward only going to be given to the player that landed the finishing blow or will it be split to the player that did the most damage and finishing blow.

3. What will happen to the hunted after he is killed (will he regain karma?)

 

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Posted

Why would the true PKs in the game want a karma reward at all? They'll be doing everything they can to stay at 0.

Deeply flawed.

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Posted

This is a really good idea, i see alot of trolling potential in this huehuehue (DW im not the type to troll randoms)

 

Questions

1. Will the person with the bounty be visible in the map?

2. Is the reward only going to be given to the player that landed the finishing blow or will it be split to the player that did the most damage and finishing blow.

3. What will happen to the hunted after he is killed (will he regain karma?)

 

i can see a zerg fest for that

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Posted (edited)

Its typically the other way around. Games like AA have been going strong on PVP and griefing for over 3 years. its the PVE'ers that have left. The problem with PVE is, if there isnt constant content it gets boring. In a game like this, that will happen sooner than later. Or, the PVE will have PVP elements which will in turn have PVE'ers leaving.

I'm a pvper and your saying the game is going on strong?  No its not its mostly dead. PVE content is what pvpers do most <alliances to not fight over bosses is proof> and games like AoC and Warhammer and even over games have basic empty pvp servers but the PVE servers have the most pop as a game stands on its last legs pvers are last to realize it.  That said archeage isn't 3 years old so that right there shows you don't know much on statistic for the matter.  You also didn't read my post. I said they need to cater to the pvp side of the game it is all it has going for it.  Pvp players ate not gong to want to talk to a npc to go find someone in the world to pvp, no instead it should be merited by a spontaneous reason,  like he is stealing my mobs, what the hell would I want severe karma penalty on consents pvp.

Edited by Maelvogar

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Posted

Bounty Hunting is cool and all but, we want the original flagging system not a bounty system.

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Posted

This sounds amazing, I will defo be a bounty hunter :D

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Posted

Personally I see no benefit in this system, as the scope would be limited to the people would actually PK the PKers.. and that is if they can find them in a large world such as BDO. After awhile, no one will bother with a bounty system since the rewards would be small compared to what they could get in the world.  As a PVE player, even if I see a Bounty criminal, I am not going to mess with the player.

Also brings into account it is up to the victim to set up the price of the bounty, if the price is so low, who would even bother to mess with it.  The criminal can just wait it out, hide somewhere and never be seen while a timer runs out on the bounty.  

I'd hoped for a lot more as well. In CB1 it was hard enough trying to physically find friends that I wanted to group with, and I can't imagine how difficult it would be to try to deliberately hunt someone down in a huge environment. All you need is a version of the karma system which carries a substantial penalty for PKing (in the sense of ganking, or trying to kill someone who has no interest in attacking you) with no penalty at all for two flagged people attacking each other. Encourage pvp, both large- and small-scale, while discouraging the lowest level of player who just wants to gank or grief.

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Posted

About the old flagging System issue: just add a buff to the pk-er which aggroes nearby monsters with every hit/attack he or she makes. So when the pk-er attacks, he/she takes the aggro from the other player who is farming mobs. This way the pk-er has to take a risk. If the other player attacks the pk-er, both of them will be flagged, aggro stays on the pk-er until the mobs get more hit from the other player with flagged state (defender).

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Posted

WHY IS DIEING TO A PKER A BIG DEAL?  YOU LOSE AT MAX 2 MINUTES OF TIME AND NOTHING ELSE.

If you can't deal with dieing and losing absolutely nothing why are you playing a game that really only has pvp as an endgame?   Its clear that SEPERATE RULESET SERVERS is the best option as neither player type is ever going to be happy without it.    

PVPERS Can get a server can get a BOT FREE awesome AAA sandbox game with player driven dynamics and drama.  

PVERS/SJWS can get their own server where they are free to BOT/get Carpel Tunnel from mindless clicking of harmless mobs without the anxiety attacks of possibly dieing and literally losing nothing.

PKers are punished way too hard with the current system, and GAIN NOTHING from PKING.  YOU CAN'T EVEN EFFECTIVELY DEFEND YOUR OWN MOB CAMP since there is 0 penalty for dieing to a PK.  They even have pay2win Res potions making pvp even worse. 

THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO PVP HOW IT STANDS,  Aside from a few bored people at launch who will eventually quit The Bounty System is 100% pointless BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NEXT TO ZERO PKERS WITHIN A FEW MONTHS....JUST LIKE KOREA.  

IF THERE IS NO REWARD/INCENTIVE TO PVP THERE SHOULD BE NO PENALTY.

1.  EITHER REMOVE ALL PENALTIES (NEGATIVE EXP, 100% of GEMS BREAKING AND WEAPON DISENCHANTS)  and put in this Bounty system instead.

2.  GIVE PKERS A REASON TO ACTUALLY PVP INSPITE OF THE PENALTIES, THROUGH a PERCENTAGE OF SILVER/INVENTORY LOOTING.

3. MAKE SEPERATE SERVERS WITH DIFFERENT CUSTOM RULESETS.  (The only reason to not do this is if we are going to get some Megaserver Abomination... which again will MAKE T HE BOUNTY SYSTEM POINTLESS and 100% kill OWPVP.

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Posted

Well I would like to know what exactly are you trying to discourage/encourage in the pvp system. I'm assuming it is as most other mmos and that would be the unfair treatment of low lvls and mass pking some groups/guilds do for grinding spots, resources, or just to be jerks. How does this system really address those issues?

Some questions/concerns:
1.) What if Player A cannot afford bounty on pker(s)? SOL? Maybe multiple attackers, maybe all high lvls/karma. The majority of pkers targets low lvls and players who cannot defend themselves. If they cannot beat them in a fair fight (1v1), they will generally bring backup.

2.) What does Player A gain from the experience of being killed (probably repeatedly) and paying for a bounty? Essentially the system is exchanging silver for karma, player A has to be willing and can afford the silver for the price of karma that goes to random bounty hunter. Is putting a bounty on Pker providing some sort of immediate protection? Personally I enjoyed mmos that offered guards (roaming and stationary) in low lvl areas for players who were just trying to quest, that would attack pkers that had accumulated so many pk points. I'm sure most of you are familiar with that, but I think the main goal is providing some sort of relief for people who are trying to lvl up. High lvls get bored and well....having been killed by these guards before, kinda encourages you to go to other areas that lack these guards and other high lvls tend to accumulate there also. So naturally forms a social gathering spot and zones for players of equal skill and lvl to test themselves.

3.) How is this system really discouraging pk and encouraging pvp? I'm assuming you mainly want to protect people who are new to the game, who may get discouraged easily by being camped, and low lvl zones. I'm not sure how I see this system providing protection. In the same instance if one high lvl killed another high lvl, why would he stop to place a bounty that he isn't even going to benefit from, and not just go out and get revenge? As most people will eventually form guilds and find friends, getting revenge and kosing players is a norm, survival of the fittest. Other then abusing the system to refill karma why would high lvls use this system?

I'm not against this as I like the bounty system, I just think we need to make sure it's actually beneficial to the players who will need it and will be continually useful throughout the lifetime of the game.

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Posted

The Target does not lose Karma for killing their attacker.

This means that if you have a Bounty on you and you defend yourself from an attacking player, killing the person who attacked you does not result in Karma loss.

what if I´m PVE1 and PK1 attcks me and i decide to defend myself and manage to kill my attacker:

1. Do I gain negative Karma for defending myself from an PK without a Bounty on his head?

2. can PK1 now place a bounty on my head becouse I killed him in self defence?

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Posted (edited)

WHY IS DIEING TO A PKER A BIG DEAL?  YOU LOSE AT MAX 2 MINUTES OF TIME AND NOTHING ELSE.

If you can't deal with dieing and losing absolutely nothing why are you playing a game that really only has pvp as an endgame?   Its clear that SEPERATE RULESET SERVERS is the best option as neither player type is ever going to be happy without it.    

PVPERS Can get a server can get a BOT FREE awesome AAA sandbox game with player driven dynamics and drama.  

PVERS/SJWS can get their own server where they are free to BOT/get Carpel Tunnel from mindless clicking of harmless mobs without the anxiety attacks of possibly dieing and literally losing nothing.

PKers are punished way too hard with the current system, and GAIN NOTHING from PKING.  YOU CAN'T EVEN EFFECTIVELY DEFEND YOUR OWN MOB CAMP since there is 0 penalty for dieing to a PK.  They even have pay2win Res potions making pvp even worse. 

THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO PVP HOW IT STANDS,  Aside from a few bored people at launch who will eventually quit The Bounty System is 100% pointless BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NEXT TO ZERO PKERS WITHIN A FEW MONTHS....JUST LIKE KOREA.  

IF THERE IS NO REWARD/INCENTIVE TO PVP THERE SHOULD BE NO PENALTY.

1.  EITHER REMOVE ALL PENALTIES (NEGATIVE EXP, 100% of GEMS BREAKING AND WEAPON DISENCHANTS)  and put in this Bounty system instead.

2.  GIVE PKERS A REASON TO ACTUALLY PVP INSPITE OF THE PENALTIES, THROUGH a PERCENTAGE OF SILVER/INVENTORY LOOTING.

3. MAKE SEPERATE SERVERS WITH DIFFERENT CUSTOM RULESETS.  (The only reason to not do this is if we are going to get some Megaserver Abomination... which again will MAKE T HE BOUNTY SYSTEM POINTLESS and 100% kill OWPVP.

agree  +1 most its just carebears, what i get from bounty hunter is "booo hooo you killed me im getting my big brother on you or my hood/posse on you or im telling my mommy " instead of doing it my self lol

CM_Jouska's stated they will have people looked into it "Various checks will be in place to prevent abuse.Examples
Can't place bounty with same familyLimitation to max bounties per target / timeLimitation on max bounties a player can set / time "
that is nice and all dedicated people looking for abuse on the system how long will it last though its not a long term option what if layoff or other possible on foreseen possibilities  might happen are you guaranteed that there still going to have people do various checks?? 

Edited by Selvaria Bles

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Posted

WHY IS DIEING TO A PKER A BIG DEAL?  YOU LOSE AT MAX 2 MINUTES OF TIME AND NOTHING ELSE. YOU LOSE 2% EXPERIENCE WHICH CAN BE HOURS OF GRINDING

If you can't deal with dieing and losing absolutely nothing why are you playing a game that really only has pvp as an endgame?   Its clear that SEPERATE RULESET SERVERS is the best option as neither player type is ever going to be happy without it.    

PVPERS Can get a server can get a BOT FREE awesome AAA sandbox game with player driven dynamics and drama.  

PVERS/SJWS can get their own server where they are free to BOT/get Carpel Tunnel from mindless clicking of harmless mobs without the anxiety attacks of possibly dieing and literally losing nothing.

PKers are punished way too hard with the current system, and GAIN NOTHING from PKING.  YOU CAN'T EVEN EFFECTIVELY DEFEND YOUR OWN MOB CAMP since there is 0 penalty for dieing to a PK.  They even have pay2win Res potions making pvp even worse. 

THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO PVP HOW IT STANDS,  Aside from a few bored people at launch who will eventually quit The Bounty System is 100% pointless BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NEXT TO ZERO PKERS WITHIN A FEW MONTHS....JUST LIKE KOREA.  YES ITS POINTLESS AS GAINING NEGATIVE KARMA HAS NO BENEFITS

IF THERE IS NO REWARD/INCENTIVE TO PVP THERE SHOULD BE NO PENALTY.

1.  EITHER REMOVE ALL PENALTIES (NEGATIVE EXP, 100% of GEMS BREAKING AND WEAPON DISENCHANTS)  and put in this Bounty system instead.

2.  GIVE PKERS A REASON TO ACTUALLY PVP INSPITE OF THE PENALTIES, THROUGH a PERCENTAGE OF SILVER/INVENTORY LOOTING.

3. MAKE SEPERATE SERVERS WITH DIFFERENT CUSTOM RULESETS.  (The only reason to not do this is if we are going to get some Megaserver Abomination... which again will MAKE T HE BOUNTY SYSTEM POINTLESS and 100% kill OWPVP. PEOPLE WILL STILL PVP OVER GRIND SPOTS

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Posted

WHY IS DIEING TO A PKER A BIG DEAL?  YOU LOSE AT MAX 2 MINUTES OF TIME AND NOTHING ELSE.

If you can't deal with dieing and losing absolutely nothing why are you playing a game that really only has pvp as an endgame?   Its clear that SEPERATE RULESET SERVERS is the best option as neither player type is ever going to be happy without it.    

PVPERS Can get a server can get a BOT FREE awesome AAA sandbox game with player driven dynamics and drama.  

PVERS/SJWS can get their own server where they are free to BOT/get Carpel Tunnel from mindless clicking of harmless mobs without the anxiety attacks of possibly dieing and literally losing nothing.

PKers are punished way too hard with the current system, and GAIN NOTHING from PKING.  YOU CAN'T EVEN EFFECTIVELY DEFEND YOUR OWN MOB CAMP since there is 0 penalty for dieing to a PK.  They even have pay2win Res potions making pvp even worse. 

THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO PVP HOW IT STANDS,  Aside from a few bored people at launch who will eventually quit The Bounty System is 100% pointless BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NEXT TO ZERO PKERS WITHIN A FEW MONTHS....JUST LIKE KOREA.  

IF THERE IS NO REWARD/INCENTIVE TO PVP THERE SHOULD BE NO PENALTY.

1.  EITHER REMOVE ALL PENALTIES (NEGATIVE EXP, 100% of GEMS BREAKING AND WEAPON DISENCHANTS)  and put in this Bounty system instead.

2.  GIVE PKERS A REASON TO ACTUALLY PVP INSPITE OF THE PENALTIES, THROUGH a PERCENTAGE OF SILVER/INVENTORY LOOTING.

3. MAKE SEPERATE SERVERS WITH DIFFERENT CUSTOM RULESETS.  (The only reason to not do this is if we are going to get some Megaserver Abomination... which again will MAKE T HE BOUNTY SYSTEM POINTLESS and 100% kill OWPVP.

Good... Non-consensual PVP is a joke... and does not need to be fed. PK needs to be crushed at all cost... GvG, Faction v Faction, RvR... are the only open world PVP that should exist. FFA PVP should not...

 

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Posted

There is absolutely no need to have such a complex system like this really. Nearly everyone just wanted a better flagging system that's all we wanted. Which literally translated to not losing karma if a player fought back. There is absolutely no need to bring a system like this here and waste valuable development time trying to get it to work. Just give us Lineage II's flagging system and everyone will be happy. Using the excuse "people will just let the mob get last hit" is something someone would say that has no idea what they are talking about. Implement Lineage IIs flagging system and people will be happy. No need to waste development time for a system like this.

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Regardless of all the issues and exploits that COULD arise from this system, it doesn't do anything to solve the problem. The real issue is the combination of a lack of incentive to pk (gain nothing, lose karma) and an unfair flagging system (lose karma regardless of whether other player fights back or not). Adding a bounty hunter system doesn't provide any incentive to start pk'ing people, it does just the opposite.

If before I thought I would kill a player, now I would second guess myself wondering if he would put a bounty on me. In theory, it provides a way for me to regain karma without the grind, but realistically that would require either a lot of PKing and, in turn, a lot of bounties, or no PKing, no bounties and, thus, no bounty hunters, both of which defeat the purpose of the system which is to control PKing. 

A proper flagging system cuts away all the bullshit. I feel like the excuse given in the original dev diary that mobs will get the last hit is something really, really hard to abuse. The defenders will either be running (no where near the original mobs) or fighting (karma shouldn't be exchanged at this point anyway).

 

A propper flagging system like L2 will go a long way.

Best way to stop abuse like the one you mention (hit at low health and get killed by a monster) is to hide the HP bar... why should you see another players HP bar if that player has not committed to fight you (that is, hit back when you strike). That would make it VERY hard to land that last blow.

 

Also, they could still add the bounty system, it could be fun, but its not what we need to solve the problem.

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Posted

YOU LOSE 2% EXPERIENCE WHICH CAN BE HOURS OF GRINDING

 

well they could remove that..

PEOPLE WILL STILL PVP OVER GRIND SPOTS

wich is often pointless too as u can get back pretty fast especially with res potions.

 

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