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[Updated v2.0] Bounty Hunters, Karma, and Flagging Discussion

4,538 posts in this topic

Posted

Good... Non-consensual PVP is a joke... and does not need to be fed. PK needs to be crushed at all cost... GvG, Faction v Faction, RvR... are the only open world PVP that should exist. FFA PVP should not...

 

didnt know Guild War is consensual in this game..

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tell me how this wont work as you know the could change it if they wanted to 
lineage 2 did it great except gear weapons dropping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeKhbtog_pI

(Cleaner Version)

short notes if you don't want to read wall of text lol

1. people that are concern about pk karma  will not have to worry about item dropping or gear dropping instead when red and get killed go straight to jail

2. reducing karma: Staying in jain do task while in jail will speed up the process of karma reduction or what lineage 2 did was kill mobs to reduce your karma or not sure if they will do this (pick up a quest for a sin eater which you level and when you return him depending on the level will reduce your karma by a percentage.

3. players that try to escape jail: need help for friend/guild with a boat bring back pk player to main island to  kill mobs to reduce karma but if caught and killed return back to jail


Before people bash that there already one a system like this in place, i am fully aware of the patch for KR version and its Jail System however, they never stated and we are not sure if we will get this at launch or month down the line. my suggestion i'm implying is to have Jail System at launch from the start. PVP/PK from what i read they have increase the level to do these types of activities in game to level 40 or 50 so by that time people will have Boats already been built. Okay now to my Idea/Suggestion, how the PK/Karma system that i have come up with that will solve the issue.it is a mix of Lineage2 and Archeage.

So as you all know in Real Life criminal that commit crime are sentenced to jail, depending on that crime will decide the penalty. Like the KR version jail system they have in place in Valencia, my suggestion is to apply throughout the map instead of one area so have two area that have a jail system, one area in the water example Alcatraz  (far from main land i’ll explain why) and one in the desert sulfur mines.

I am sure some people want to PK at times but have the concern about  accumulating massive amount of karma caused by being  greif by other player to abuse the karma system which in result have items breaking or being drop. my thoughts was  instead of worrying about gear armor/weapon/accessory just some item in your inventory dropping like potion ect. and once killed while red you just go straight to jail no option to respawn to node or town and do your time or try to escape. Example: in RL jail you lose your items but when you leave you get your belongings back intake after you finish your time served

Like in linage 2, if the both player initiate attack 1 attack 1 try to defend  both go purple if anyone of the player dies like in lineage 2 no penalty or karma, however if said player PK without the other defending pker goes red and if red player gets killed before reducing karma/getting rid of red tag player will not drop/or break items instead goes straight to jail area to do time or try to escape.

The Prison if they approved of this as a idea, is to place prison in the middle of ocean like Alcatraz, now i know Archeage had something similar to it but they allowed players way too easy to escape, from summoning boats and a small debuff however,  for BDO (this is where being social/guild helps)  since the NPC to summon a boat on the prison island you won't be given accesses to that option unless finishing your time. if however, you wish not to spend time in prison and want to go out and reduce your karma yourself in order to escape the prison in the water players will need the helping hand from guild/friend  for someone to summon a boat and ship you away. Once you have escape you will still be red but karma is reduce by a (little or not at all depends on DEV)   only way to reduce truly reduce the karma like lineage 2 did grind mobs however, if you are caught by another player if you kill him before he kills you increase of karma but if get killed by that player you go back to jail, which the player the help you from the prison island will have to bring his/her boat back and bring you back to main land again. for those trying to help break prisoner this method for some will be annoying but if you can't do the time it fits the crime =)


For those deciding to stick with it in prison, staying in jail will remove karma fast even faster when completing the mini game set in place. depending on how many times you kill a player will increase time spent in jail for example, kill once maybe 5 min or 10 can only leave if you finish your time or if the player had 20 kills timer last 1hr or longer or depending if this gets approved by devs time may change.

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Posted

So, we finally get an update and I'm not sure where to start, to sum everything up in a rather short manner, while keeping it constructive. I guess it's not going to be entirely possible, so bare with me.

For starters, I have to state I'm really happy about the majority of things mentioned in update - mainly most of the cash shop-related sheaningans, but severely disappointed with devs' approach to the whole owPvP/PK issue.

What I see so far is a PK-related mechanic, where's anything about owPvP?

I need to make this clear:

PK'ING DOESN'T DIRECTLY EQUAL OWPVP. IT'S AN ACT OF MURDERING OTHER PLAYERS WITHIN THE GENERAL CONFINES OF A PVP SYSTEM.

WHERE'S THE CONSENSUAL OWPVP SOLUTION WE ASKED ABOUT?

Just as Khazard, Shion and Fumiyu already mentioned - this whole concept is just an addition to the pk system at most. It's incredibly biased, unfair to those who become player killers and DOESN'T REALLY SOLVE THE ISSUE OF OWPVP. This is either just a poor walkaround for the whole dillema (which will end badly for the game), or something, that could spice up the PK system within Valencia update... but it won't really help as a standalone solution to the current, most important problem ingame - allowing players to engage in consensual open world pvp without risk of losing anything, or getting penalized for it. In short - Pearl Abyss CONTINUES TO REMOVE THE POSSIBILITY FOR PLAYERS TO COMPETE INGAME IN IT'S SANDBOX ENVIROMENT, whilst not providing any reassuring, nor stable solution.

Since I already wrote a lot regarding the whole issue in other threads, I'll simply cite them to start with, so everyone can understand the general idea behind owPvP and reasons why owPvP is required in a sandbox game as an unrestricted mechanic:

Firstly, why our playerbase remains divided on the prospect of owPvP/PK:

This whole notion comes from the fact, people are using the current version of the whole system (which is broken) as a base for their opinions and arguments. Current system does not allow for consensual owpvp, it only allows people to flag themselves as PK'ers - which obviously means only one thing - that the player who flagged himself will 100% kill the person he flagged for. You don't even have to be incredibly intelligent to understand, what that means.

A lot of people have been asking for the original flagging system to return, since it's not only better in overall, it also fixes a majority of issues, which emerge from lack of an appropriate balance in owpvp, as currently we only have complete extremes available as an option - you either don't engage in owpvp at all, or become a criminal ingame and murder other players.

What's really behind the prospect of owPvP:

I can only state one thing - PvP can't exist without PvE and contrary to some popular beliefs, PvE can't exist without PvP. PvE without PvP is devoid of any sense, do it and you get a broken game. Everything can be directly referenced to real life samples. In other words - go look at other mainstream mmorpg's currently available on the market. Ask yourself why they aren't able to retain their playerbases and go into a steady decline a couple months after release, every single time.

The easiest and most successful way to achieve balance is to make the PvP available by going through the PvE content, while ensuring people will have to compete for said PvE content. It's THAT simple.

That's what we've been fighting since day one. Majority of veterans also wants the pvp gate to return to level 50 and to be honest, I wouldn't mind that either. This game was never meant to have PvP available at lower levels, it isn't balanced for that kind of content well enough. Aside from that, it will give everyone what they want - PvE-oriented players and casuals afraid of being "bullied" by others would have a safe road throughout the whole leveling process till they reach level 50 (aka endgame), while pushing the PvP for 50 would actually allow to implement the original flagging back without any sort of negative impact on the rest of playerbase.

Karma is something which isn't really connected with the flagging system, but requires a bit more balance to ensure the risk vs reward factor will remain appropriate enough to actually allow and encourage people to owpvp. BDO also requires a lot more open world incentives for PvE and PvP players to engage together with; as I stated before, mmorpg's can't really exist without PvP and PvE content in perfect balance.

That grind will lead to nowhere though, simply because there won't be any actual reasons to use the gear you farmed for so hard afterwards; consensual pvp has it's limitations and remains just a mean to achieve certain goals in a very-strict, predefined pattern; any player doing it for a couple of months will finally get bored of it, because they are same scenarios leading to exact same outcomes. Such events also last way to short to allow anything to grow. It's one of the reasons Alliance content didn't saved TERA's "owPvP".

The problem is, if everyone will get a 100% risk-free enviroment to farm for the gear, it will not only tremendously shorten the time required to obtain it, but also make it less important; it won't be any sort of an achievement, when everyone around will be walking in the top available sets. What happens afterwards? Everyone will only enagage in consensual PvP and leave after a couple of months, since the game will become boring and there will be nothing new added to the game. It's what gated content always leads to.

Adding risk and competivity to PvE ensures a balance, properly gating content by adding a time factor. Gaining gear will not only require effort, it will take time, increasing it's importance and rarity. People will have something to look forward to. PK'ers and owPvP acts as a limiter. It also gives PvE players a variety of different experiences, it gives a REASON to continue playing the game. More time allows players to create an actual network of social interactions with bonds, allies and rivarlies.

It's the same sort of balance, taken straight from nature. Get rid of the predators and herbivores/omnivores will mass breed and quickly turn into pests, destroying enviroment they live within, indulging in cannibalism or simply dying of starvation; whole ecosystem falls apart and crumbles down. The same happens to all the mmorpg's which fail to incorporate the most important condition:

PvE to PvP, PvP to PvE.

So, they are stating the original flagging system has it's flaws, mainly:

 

We brought up the old flagging system that many PKers requested. But it doesn’t really solve the issue as it brings up new issues. Such as the possibility to avoid the Karma penalty by attacking a player while he is engaged with monsters until he ultimately gets killed by the monsters (last hit). This way you could simply avoid getting the penalty for the kill, as the final strike would have been executed by the monster, not the player.

 What kind of an excuse is that? I even thought they will come up with the AoE dillema (which isn't really that huge of an issue itself), but this? Do they even know it's already possible within the confines of current system and is something that cannot really be fixed, no matter what would they do? Do they even know the chances of this occuring in-game are so low (due to the fact players are a lot faster and mob AI is just silly), it shouldn't even be mentioned as a possible issue and won't/can't really be used a mean for player griefing? I'm simply at loss for words.

Majority of PvE'ers want the original flagging back. Almost every single PvP-oriented player, including veterans and hardcore PVP/PK'ers want the original flagging back. Can PA actually explain, why exactly do they feel so reluctant to implement it? Is the really tiny, vocal minority of complainers (aka the real carebears; I'm not even talking about PvE-oriented players, who simply feel worried about getting ganked too much) so worth the risk of whole game project plummeting down, they want to cater to them, no matter what?

It's a biased viewpoint from a game developer's perspective, as it suggests complete lack of complex understanding behind all the PvP and PvE related mechanics.

  1. Ganking and griefing in sandbox owpvp games. It's heavily exagerrated, doesn't happen much in reality. Current karma system keeps it from happening too often, not to mention bringing the pvp gate back to level 50 would completely remove any sort of danger towards completely casual players, who are undergoing leveling process. The more reasons pvp-oriented players have to PvP in an organised manner (be it ow or consensual), the less will they engage in chaotic PvP activities (PK'ing for fun, griefing, ganking).
  2. PK'ing is an evil necessity. It's a limiter, preventing all the PvE-related mechanics from being dilluted and becoming oversaturated. Removing the possibility to PK, or penalizing it heavily will allow PvE-oriented players an unrestricted access to all the PvE content, which will shorten the game's lifespan, greatly influence the economy and drastically increase the chances for item/money inflation on the market.
  3. PK = PVP. No, it isn't. PK'ing is a part of overall PvP content. PvP content is divided into owPvP and consensual PvP. Consensual PvP consists of all the PvP-related activities that fall into a category, that can be best described as "system-controlled". duels, arena fights, Crimson Battlefield, GvG's, Sieges and Node Wars are all part of it. They are heavily restricted and confined within specific systems and sets of rules, happen in short timespans and remain limited in that sense, they cannot happen outside of it. owPvP consists of random PvP skirmishes and situations, that happen in the open world. PK'ing (as in player killing, or an act of murdering other players) is a part of owPvP. owPvP can scale from short fights between two or more players to whole wars, waged between alliances of many guilds and often lasting for day, weeks or months. owPvP is unrestricted and as such, falls under the surveilance of the playerbase itself; in other words, players build their reputation within the community with their own actions and any sort of repeated, negative actions taken against other players will lead to consequences, in which the whole playerbase will react and punish the wrongdoer in one way or another. Let's not forget about the karma system itself, which already remains a part of PvP, which directly governs punishment and discourages negative PvP behaviour.
  4. The notion of challenge. What else there is, if you're simply allowed to go into the wilderness and bash all the mobs around, brain-afk'ing with ease? PK'ers and owPvP brings a challenge factor to the game. It makes venturing into open world more thrilling and makes the whole world itself not only a lot more beautiful, but omnious at the same time. It brings people the feeling of achievement, when they manage to outsmart or defy the dangers within the open world and achieve their goals, be it taming a horse, climbing up a mountain, finishing a trade run or returning from a resource-gathering operation.
  5. Open World does not equal safe zone. Majority of people seem to understand that aspect of sandbox games. Once you leave the town, you are devoid of any right to anything in the open world. You have to COMPETE for it with other players, when the situation arises. Competition does not remove the ability to fall into agreements with other players. At times it's simply better (and easier) to talk things through, than start a fight.
  6. PK'ing and owPvP encourages human interaction. PK'ing spawns owPvP, it spawns reasons to pvp consensualy. owPvP spawns all sorts of situations, brings in a vast majority of different scenarios, which can often be resolved in many different ways. It creates situations, where people meet and bond with eachother. It strenghtens friendships between people and guilds. It creates rivalries and reasons to log in and do things ingame.

I seriously hoped PA is wise enough to see how simple of a solution the original system was to fix the majority of issues ingame, bring longevity and create reasons for future content to exist, but this? Succumbing to such a minor issue in an mmorpg prevents them from fixing the entire game? What are their plans? What do they want to do with this game? What kind of community they want to cater to? People who will play a bit, get bored after a couple of weeks/months and jump off to another game or mmorpg?

Why do they want to punish and prevent consensual owPvP from happening at all? Why do they want to punish PK'ers so much? Why do they want to allow all sorts of things, that will literally lead to the exact same situation, as with the KR/JP/RU BDO? Why aren't they listening to people, who played countless games, know how mmorpg's work and what is required to make a sandbox mmorpg successful?

It does not make any sense.

But PvPers aren't going to necessarily want to be PvPing 24/7 and might need a break and just want to go out and do stuff in the world like fishing/gathering/exploring/etc. Though they used "PvE" players as an example, it isn't just for PvE players, it's for everyone.

As a PvE-majority player, I also don't mind the old flagging system in that all I need to do is be aware of my surroundings to make sure I don't get killed in a competitive spot.  No harm, no foul.

Thank you. We need more PvE-oriented players like you.

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I'd hoped for a lot more as well. In CB1 it was hard enough trying to physically find friends that I wanted to group with, and I can't imagine how difficult it would be to try to deliberately hunt someone down in a huge environment. All you need is a version of the karma system which carries a substantial penalty for PKing (in the sense of ganking, or trying to kill someone who has no interest in attacking you) with no penalty at all for two flagged people attacking each other. Encourage pvp, both large- and small-scale, while discouraging the lowest level of player who just wants to gank or grief.

You know there's an NPC in towns that'll tell you the location of any player in the world for a sum of money.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is the same NPC that will set a bounty for you.  At any rate, you CAN find players in the world using this NPC.

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Posted

Good... Non-consensual PVP is a joke... and does not need to be fed. PK needs to be crushed at all cost... GvG, Faction v Faction, RvR... are the only open world PVP that should exist. FFA PVP should not...

 

-----Trigger Warning----

Since you are likely some fat ERPing housewife I can understand how how upset you must feel that others have different opinions and don't want this game to fail like it has started to in korea.  The game does not have enough content without a REAL PVP SYSTEM to drive player interaction and drama.

You want Skilled consenual faction PvP? (LOL ESPORTS MY MMO)  There are shittons of truely skill based games out there better suited to it than this game perhaps you could look into counterstrike TF2  Overwatch or GW2. 

Instead of whining on the forums whenever pvpers post solutions to the completely broken pvp system you should be asking for SEPERATE RULESET SERVERS so you don't have to deal with nasty pkers or people with differing opinions so they can play how they want to play and you can play on your blue server mindlessly grinding harmless npcs.

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Posted (edited)

All I'm seeing from this system right now is that somebody could whimsically assign bounty to `anybody` with a price based on their karma score.

1.  Allow `revenge bounty` for 12-24 hours for a significantly reduced price or free by anybody who was attacked by another player (of any Karma value).  If the bounty system is being put into the game specifically as a means for non-PKs to get some level of revenge against people they can't kill themselves - then a heavy cost associated with this is something which should be avoided.   The `payment` for the bounty in this case would be the lost Karma which was spent by the PK in the first place.

2.  Allow `normal bounty` any time, for scaling prices based on the target's Karma - but only if they are beneath a certain threshold of Karma.  The point of this is to stop the bounty system from being used by established players to grief other newer users, especially ones who have never really lost much Karma.  The last thing we need is for this system to be used as another way to hysterically grief newer players away from the game in a way that causes misdirected frustration toward the bounty hunters instead of the real culprit who placed the expensive bounty on them.

Also:  if you're using the `standard/existing` flagging system for attacking bounties, won't this lead to bounty targets standing next to non-bounty targets in order to try and force you to hit them, thus causing karma penalties?

Lastly:  Make all bounty hunting rewards cosmetic only, untradeable, unstat'd.   We don't need people finding ways to profit exploitatively off of this system.

Edited by Jaguar
clarification of concept.

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Posted

What is the justification for not having the old system anymore? Why can't we go back to what worked?

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Posted (edited)

While this system looks interesting at first glance, i think it fails to address the core issue of lack of consensual small scale pvp. Bounty hunter system is supposed to resolve the tendency of certain players to unlawfully kill other players "for no good reason" by offering other similarly minded players to channel those same tendencies for a "good reason" by avenging the victims and redeeming their karma?

Why not use and adjust the old flagging system while simultaneously implementing the bounty system for an incentive other than karma gain on red "outlaw" players, you would then have allowed OWpvp, channeled healthy PK and deterred griefing all at once.

 

As for the tweaking of old flagging system, make the unflagged player incapable of damaging the flagged player unless they flag themselves, and make the attacker take full kill karma penalty if the victim dies to a monster's final hit within a short period of being attacked by the flagged player to avoid exploit. 

 

@CM_Jouska

 

 

 

Edited by Beeso

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Posted (edited)

Thinking about how the system is meant to be used, instead of how to exploit it, I think that it is a great idea for a few different reasons. 
Let's clarify a few things:

  1. The system is meant for people who are interested in PvP
  2. The system is meant as a way to encourage open world PvP
  3. The system is currently in a very rough idea stage. Literally nothing is set in stone as of yet.

Now, I'm going to put aside how "exploitable" the system is until the deeper mechanics of it are released, because until then we have no idea. What I really want to ask and answer is how this system encourages OWPvP.

Say a PKer gets a bounty on his head. This can happen regardless of high/low Karma. Once they have a bounty on their head, people who have accepted the bounty as well as the person who has the bounty placed on them do not take any karma hits for attacking each other. People are concerned about the flagging system because it doesn't encourage two people who just want to fight, but this actually clears that up. In OWPvP there are two types of people, you are looking for people who want to PvP or are just looking to PK. 

  • If you're looking to duel, there are arenas in place
  • If you are looking to PK, you can still PK, but now you can actually face people who want to PvP because of bounties

Because of this, OWPvP is actually encouraged if you want to PvP. PKing results in Karma loss, but it also goes around and makes you a target in a system that prevents further karma loss and allows you to PvP. And if you want to get your karma back quickly, you can jump into the bounty race and PvP people who want to! All-in-all, this system greatly benefits a healthy, active, PvP environment. I can't wait to see what else is in store for this system as it gets fleshed out.

Edited by NoGround

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Posted

Can we have cop NPCs roaming everywhere for this? Hear me out, like, have maybe NPCs walking around in horses or carriages, and in a big radius around them they can "see" a PK. They then arrest that PK, maybe even have a trial where they can have witnesses (the NPC popo will detect nearby players when the killing was done) and ask them if they're willing to testify. This opens up a possibility of getting away with murder if there are no witnesses or police NPCs. If there are no NPCs, maybe give players a command, like /911murderwitness <name of victim> <name of murderer> to report it and a police NPC will arrive within 5 minutes to 500 minutes depending on location/character/karma and do what they do from there on.

The one who was killed cannot be a part of this as he is dead so he cannot communicate with others.

For real though, I'm hyped for this new system. Hope it gets good, I'm not smart enough to contribute anything positive.

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Posted

This system looks really good. I think it will be awesome to try out. 

PS People just stop with the lineage 2 PK system that game is dated and the system is not applicable here. How about you either give this game a chance or go back to your beloved game.

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Suggestions for the bounty system:

Tie the Boubty hunter reward track to the Amity system. When the Boubty Hunter speaks to an NPC that a Bounty target has also spoken to in the last week that NPC will trigger a condition in which the target's general location is shown on the bounty hunter's map. The higher the Amity:bounty track level ratio the more specific the tracking located on the map becomes.

A bounty hunter in the same game region as his target will automatically be switched into the same channel as their target to prevent channel stealth exploits.

Bounty contracts are purchased with positive karma. 

Three types of Bounty contracts can be purchased.

1. Specific bounty (the lowest karma price). This contract allows the bounty hunter to engage only the chosen PK'er and receive a bounty reward.

2. General Bounty (This has a higher price than a specific bounty contract) The Boubty Hunter can attack any player in the same area as themselves who is on the global bounty list. However these kills yield much smaller rewards than a specific contract. General bounty contracts can only be purchased by bounty hunters who have achieved certain bounty hunter reward track requirements.

5. Master bounty. (Highest price) This type of bounty contract allows the bounty hunter to either attack from a list of up to 5 specific targets for full Boubty reward, or engage a random global bounty for lowered rewards.

A Boubty Hunter can only hold a limited number of contracts based on their bounty hunter reward track. These contracts can be of any mixture of the above types of contract. (as long as the bounty hunter is allowed to purchase that type due to their reward level).

A bounty hunter can not initiate combat with an AoE attack. 

The reward level of any given Boubty is affected by the total HP pool of the Boubty when PVP is first flagged. 100-90% HP full reward. 89-30% hp only partial rewards. If the bounty is below 30% HP when PVP is initiated, that attack does not qualify for a reward and still uses up a bounty contract.

Local regions and bounty gmbunter rewards. Completing bounties in a region will grant you positive reputation in that region which will give increased bonuses when dealing with NPC's from that region. This allows for a type of "Local Hero" system to organically evolve.

Bounty seals should be labeled Gold Silver, or Bronze. Gold seals are only granted to specific or master specific contract completions (The battle was fully honorable with PVP initiating with the target above 90% HP), Silver contracts gained for general bounties and specific bounties at a reduced reward level), bronze bounties are for general bounties at a reduced reward level.

Losing bounty hunter reputation. Accumulation of negative karma equal to=5 PK will result in reduction of that hunter's present Boubty Hunter rep status. This will force bounty hunters to return to town every five kills and collect their karma/seal rewards to prevent bounty killing sprees.

Guilds should be able to post bounties on players that have killed members. If a guild has placed a bounty on a player, this counts as an instead of situation. Guild bounties are not an additional bounty and they are placed as a service to the guildmember (this will usually be done by large rich guilds, or by guilds trying to support a member who is short on silver)

 

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The bounty hunter system is not the answer.

Here's the biggest problem with this and so many other ideas to solve the issue of PvP consequences:

Daum/Black Pearl are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

What do I mean by that? They want to appease the PvE crowd and the PvP crowds simultaneously. The problem with that is these two audiences have always been at odds. PvP players are okay with reasonable consequences for no-holds-barred PvP and PKing; PvE players want to be protected from the cold, dark wrath of the PvP crowd.

Who is BDO for?

The question I want to ask the devs is this: at the end of the day, who is this game for?

Standing from my POV, BDO is a game for the PvPers. The entire system is built on conflict over resources, whether it's nodes, castles, or farming/grinding spots. That means all the systems and mechanics need to support and indeed favor these players. That does not mean it has to be done to the complete exclusion of the PvE crowd, but when any question arises about development philosophy of the game, the answer should always be to focus on PvP.

Can we really make a game for both audiences?

That said, here's a sad reality we PvP folks have to face: the PvE crowd is many times larger than the PvP crowd.

Daum/BP need to make money on this game, and they will. The grim truth is they won't make as much off the PvPers as the PvEers simply based on numbers. 

Since I'm not an idiot who thinks they should make the suicidal business decision of serving the best game they can to a smaller group of gamers to the exclusion of the rest, I know they're going to try to cast as wide a net as they can. Therefor, I'm not against building some walls around PvE so the griefer/PK crowd can't come in and ruin it for everyone. Hell, I'll even participate in some structured PvE from time to time. It's nice to turn my brain off and just clear a dungeon when I'm burnt out from the high-octane world of killing players and warring guilds.

In addition to that, there are many robust PvE systems in place already for players to enjoy: trading, crafting, gathering, AFK fishing, that are completely free from the threat of PKs. I mean, players can't even raid your trade caravans or destroy your manufacturing infrastructure! The only risk to a merchant caravan is a roving band of NPC merchants. That's such a huge departure from other games like ArcheAge or EVE, where you could have all your hard work taken away from you in an instant if you wander into the wrong neighborhood.

At the end of the day, when it comes down to answering questions about the direction of the game the answer should always be to stay true to the vision of the game whenever possible and that means improving the PvP experience first.

Many will disagree with me but I will reassert my opinion that BDO is a PvP-centric game at its core and it should remain so.

Where do we go from here?

Here's where I make my heartfelt plea to the dev team: don't punish the PvPers for killing other players when that's exactly what you expect to do. Apart from frivolous and rampant GvG wardecs, which aren't even a practical solution to the problem, you have not given us any other tools to defend precious resources and assert control over territory.

The PvP community have put forth a number of reasonable solutions only to be shouted down by those who fear the consequences of loosening restrictions on open-world PvP, so we're turning to you, the devs, to champion our cause.

If this is the game we think it is, then don't leave us hanging!

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So, we finally get an update and I'm not sure where to start, to sum everything up in a rather short manner, while keeping it constructive. I guess it's not going to be entirely possible, so bare with me.

For starters, I have to state I'm really happy about the majority of things mentioned in update - mainly most of the cash shop-related sheaningans, but severely disappointed with devs' approach to the whole owPvP/PK issue.

What I see so far is a PK-related mechanic, where's anything about owPvP?

I need to make this clear:

PK'ING DOESN'T DIRECTLY EQUAL OWPVP. IT'S AN ACT OF MURDERING OTHER PLAYERS WITHIN THE GENERAL CONFINES OF A PVP SYSTEM.

WHERE'S THE CONSENSUAL OWPVP SOLUTION WE ASKED ABOUT?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeKhbtog_pI 
 

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Can we have cop NPCs roaming everywhere for this? Hear me out, like, have maybe NPCs walking around in horses or carriages, and in a big radius around them they can "see" a PK. They then arrest that PK, maybe even have a trial where they can have witnesses (the NPC popo will detect nearby players when the killing was done) and ask them if they're willing to testify. This opens up a possibility of getting away with murder if there are no witnesses or police NPCs. If there are no NPCs, maybe give players a command, like /911murderwitness <name of victim> <name of murderer> to report it and a police NPC will arrive within 5 minutes to 500 minutes depending on location/character/karma and do what they do from there on.

The one who was killed cannot be a part of this as he is dead so he cannot communicate with others.

For real though, I'm hyped for this new system. Hope it gets good, I'm not smart enough to contribute anything positive.

if u want soo much realizm, might add an option to call the npc cop without seing a PK just to get someone in jail who didnt do it ;) 

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Posted (edited)

A bounty system within the context of faction conflict would be the most enjoyable, and effective (imo).

Imagine this:
BDO has 3-4 (minimum) PvP factions.

Faction A) Order of the Dragon (random name, name doesnt matter)
Faction B) Order of the Tiger (random name, name doesnt matter)
Faction C) Triad/Bandit
No faction: neutral/Bounty Hunters

Players can approach a NPC and swear allegiance to said faction. Guild Leader's faction = automatically turns all guild members to said faction.
Factions are natural enemies to one another. The system will flag the other factions for PK in certain regions.

Since this creates a situation for conflict, players will have kill counts based on attacking the enemy factions. Those who gain notoriety (basically reach a certain point as being one of the top killers of enemy faction) can have a bounty set on their head by one of other faction's NPCs.

Bounty Hunters:
Bounty Hunters are players from the neutral/no faction side that accept one of the faction's bounty. They effectively act as mercenaries. When a bounty hunt is accepted by the no faction player, they get flagged as Bounty Hunters. This would make them PK on sight for their intended target and the target's surrounding team mates/faction/guild. Once the Bounty is complete or canceled by the no faction player, the bounty hunter flag is removed and they are no faction/neutral.

Rewards:
Bounty Hunters can gain rewards based on the faction they hunted for (or universal rewards not tied to any faction). Once a Bounty is killed, their notoriety is lost, and they have to go up once more killing enemy faction players to qualify for a bounty.
Faction members also gain rewards for how many enemy players they kill, thus making them go up on the list in which to become a bounty in the first place.
Thus there is incentive not only to create world conflict between factions, but also a reward system for no faction players who can become bounty hunters. It creates a structured ecosystem for partially open world pvp.

System:
Other forms of PvP can over ride the faction allegiance, so guilds of the same faction can fight one another over resources or via siege. The faction system would be skin deep, as it would just give instructions to the system as to who to flag for pvp based on specific conditions. No story or lore is really required, nor should players ever feel stuck in any particular group. All players have access to PvP as a result. One based on choice (bounty hunts), the other based on allegiance (faction) and guild. The more you kill for your faction, the more bounty hunters will come after you, and thus all 3 faction's leading killers will also become targets themselves for the non faction players.


 

Edited by DeusVult
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The bounty hunter system is not the answer.

Here's the biggest problem with this and so many other ideas to solve the issue of PvP consequences:

Daum/Black Pearl are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

What do I mean by that? They want to appease the PvE crowd and the PvP crowds simultaneously. The problem with that is these two audiences have always been at odds. PvP players are okay with reasonable consequences for no-holds-barred PvP and PKing; PvE players want to be protected from the cold, dark wrath of the PvP crowd.

Who is BDO for?

The question I want to ask the devs is this: at the end of the day, who is this game for?

Standing from my POV, BDO is a game for the PvPers. The entire system is built on conflict over resources, whether it's nodes, castles, or farming/grinding spots. That means all the systems and mechanics need to support and indeed favor these players. That does not mean it has to be done to the complete exclusion of the PvE crowd, but when any question arises about development philosophy of the game, the answer should always be to focus on PvP.

Can we really make a game for both audiences?

That said, here's a sad reality we PvP folks have to face: the PvE crowd is many times larger than the PvP crowd.

Daum/BP need to make money on this game, and they will. The grim truth is they won't make as much off the PvPers as the PvEers simply based on numbers. 

Since I'm not an idiot who thinks they should make the suicidal business decision of serving the best game they can to a smaller group of gamers to the exclusion of the rest, I know they're going to try to cast as wide a net as they can. Therefor, I'm not against building some walls around PvE so the griefer/PK crowd can't come in and ruin it for everyone. Hell, I'll even participate in some structured PvE from time to time. It's nice to turn my brain off and just clear a dungeon when I'm burnt out from the high-octane world of killing players and warring guilds.

In addition to that, there are many robust PvE systems in place already for players to enjoy: trading, crafting, gathering, AFK fishing, that are completely free from the threat of PKs. I mean, players can't even raid your trade caravans or destroy your manufacturing infrastructure! The only risk to a merchant caravan is a roving band of NPC merchants. That's such a huge departure from other games like ArcheAge or EVE, where you could have all your hard work taken away from you in an instant if you wander into the wrong neighborhood.

At the end of the day, when it comes down to answering questions about the direction of the game the answer should always be to stay true to the vision of the game whenever possible and that means improving the PvP experience first.

Many will disagree with me but I will reassert my opinion that BDO is a PvP-centric game at its core and it should remain so.

Where do we go from here?

Here's where I make my heartfelt plea to the dev team: don't punish the PvPers for killing other players when that's exactly what you expect to do. Apart from frivolous and rampant GvG wardecs, which aren't even a practical solution to the problem, you have not given us any other tools to defend precious resources and assert control over territory.

The PvP community have put forth a number of reasonable solutions only to be shouted down by those who fear the consequences of loosening restrictions on open-world PvP, so we're turning to you, the devs, to champion our cause.

If this is the game we think it is, then don't leave us hanging!

I think the biggest issue with all of this is what I highlighted. They want to take as much money from the PvE and PvP players as possible, in a game/system that's designed to encourage PvP.

The problem with that is they're trying to make PvE a carebear system in a PvP based game (limited resources and fighting over them). why why why why

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Can we have cop NPCs roaming everywhere for this? Hear me out, like, have maybe NPCs walking around in horses or carriages, and in a big radius around them they can "see" a PK. They then arrest that PK, maybe even have a trial where they can have witnesses (the NPC popo will detect nearby players when the killing was done) and ask them if they're willing to testify. This opens up a possibility of getting away with murder if there are no witnesses or police NPCs. If there are no NPCs, maybe give players a command, like /911murderwitness <name of victim> <name of murderer> to report it and a police NPC will arrive within 5 minutes to 500 minutes depending on location/character/karma and do what they do from there on.

The one who was killed cannot be a part of this as he is dead so he cannot communicate with others.

For real though, I'm hyped for this new system. Hope it gets good, I'm not smart enough to contribute anything positive.

what the actual **** go play hellokittyonline.

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Someone please explain to me why we're talking about an entirely new system when the base Karma system and flagging need to be addressed? WTH, fix the flagging and don't give some BS strawman about mobs getting the last hit, it's absurd.

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The only issue I see: Why would it be fun to become a PK in the first place in this system? ESO did a great job with the Imperial City sewers and how you got 80% of the tel var stones (a currency) of the person you took down that he was carrying on him. Furthermore, the more stones a PvE'er carried on them, the more they looted from mobs, which gave an incentive to take the risk. This gave great meaning and immersion to playing there - both for PvP and PvE players.

ESO's Imperial City ultimately failed, however, not for this reason but because they left the zone unfinished without additional good mechanics. It is still somewhat populated, but would come back to life the second they add some more mechanics/rewards to being there.

But the whole loot the person you kill mechanic is amazing. PvE'ers teamed up to be safe and were pushed a little bit to get better at the game to survive attacking PKs. And PKs had a real reason to go there and have fun - it was some of the most adrenaline I've felt in any game in over 10 years.

Without a reason to become a PK, I feel like it will get old real fast in BDO.

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Greetings,

We would like to have your input on the proposed Bounty Hunter system from PM Diary 2.2.

Bounty Hunter System

+1 With this concept still on paper, and ideas flying round and round, like socks in a dryer, I honestly think what we're being asked, is our very first impression of the idea. At first blush, do we like this proposal, or not? Personally, I give it a thumbs up, has merit, worth giving it a try at least. One thing for certain, it's going to be different ( it's going to be funny ).

heh_thumbs_up_nph.gif

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I think the biggest issue with all of this is what I highlighted. They want to take as much money from the PvE and PvP players as possible, in a game/system that's designed to encourage PvP.

The problem with that is they're trying to make PvE a carebear system in a PvP based game (limited resources and fighting over them). why why why why

the bounty hunter is a carebear system there no pvp competition its you killed me im getting the whole server on you QQ more

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The flaw in this system is it starts off with a player getting pissed off enough to offer up a bounty in the first place. The player who would rather not take part in PvP has to become a victim of unwanted PvP for the system to work. Surely we can see the problem here is there are a number of MMO players that just don’t want to take part in PvP when they’re not prepared for it or otherwise want nothing to do with PvP. Its the reason we've had PvE rule set servers in MMO since 1998.   

I don’t understand why you don’t just let the guild system function as the PvP flag. It’s simple, join a PvP guild and you freely kill or get killed by other players.

Join a PvE guild and you’re not flagged for PvP  …. Done bob’s you uncle!!! 

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a Jail system in both areas 

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the bounty hunter is a carebear system there no pvp competition its you killed me im getting the whole server on you QQ more

I don't disagree with you lol. In fact I already said like twice on the thread that I think it's stupid. If the PvP system was fixed, and this bounty system was added on, that might be neat, but as the fix for PvP it's horrendous

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