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184 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Let's start off with a fun little tl;dr. Agree? Disagree? Think I'm just a whiteknight who's spent the past hour typing this up whilst they recover energy, munching on carrots sticks and watching re-runs of Scrubs on TV? Let me know in the comments. 

tl;dr The game isn't P2W due to the items in cash shop either offering negligible rewards or the fact that the advantage can be achieved in game for free, I have outliend each item in bold with my arguments for said item not being P2W underneath.

First things first, why do we need a cash shop if the game is B2P? Quite simple, the cash shop pays for the server costs, pays for staff and office fees and pays for content. At no point are you ever forced to buy from the cash shop and despite people claiming otherwise you are never locked behind a paywall. At the end of this thread I will provide you with some examples of games that are P2W, but for now let's focus on the definition of P2W. Depending on the game there are two definitions. P2W can mean that a paying user has access to gear or items that offer an advantage in game that CANNOT be achieved by free users. Its second definition is that it allows paying users to achieves things at a faster rate to the point the game becomes UNBALANCED

Let's look at some of the items that people claim are P2W.

Treant Costume - Weapon Durability consumption decreased by 10%, +100 Stamina, +1 Gathering Level and Difficult to detect

The weapon durability is at best, extremely minimal if not completely pointless. It also doesn't provide any sort of skill buff and it's only purpose is to save silver for the buyer. Seeing as people are making upward of 2 million an hour (minimum) by grinding, then the repair cost of weapon is completely negligible. It also only affects the weapon and not the armour.

The +100 Stamina can be achieved with various alchemy potions, crystals and cooked goods however the costume buff does stack with other buffs, however what is the real advantage of being able to run for a second or two more? You reach the mob first? You still need to be able to do more damage. You get to run away faster? 

The +1 Gathering level is only good for players who don't have access to guild buffs or life skill costumes and tools. There is a hard cap on your different abilities and it can't go above +5. With guild skills you're looking at +3 to gathering if you have the points for it, the silver gathering clothes adds another +1 level at +0 and then +2 when you get it to +2. Voila, you now have 4/5 gathering ability for free.

The difficult to detect skill is the main reason people see this item as P2W, however the name can be seen by popping off a flare and suddenly there name is revealed. There are also claims that the person will still appear on the radar and that hovering over the white square will show the name, but I haven't tested this so won't include it. People like to complain that flares are difficult to come by, but each flare currently sells for 7k silver on the marketplace and there are also various quests that give you flares as a reward. 

Elion's Tear - Instant resurrection

Elion's tears don't save your EXP when you die, they merely allow you to instantly resurrect on the spot. The only advantage of this item is then being able to get straight back into a fight rather than running for a minute or so from the closest node. I won't consider the fact you can buy tears from the loyalty shop as their price is far too high at 500 LP. That being said, there is no real advantage this item as the only way it can be abused depends on your play-style. People claim that once they kill another player, said player can then spam tears and keep attacking them to bring their karma down. However, you don't NEED to kill another player and if you do, shouldn't you accept the fact that you are going to lose karma? How is it P2W if it relies on your play-style. Could you not ignore the player and carry on grinding? Kill the mobs faster? Switch channels? Find another grinding spot? Grind off other mobs? Come back at a later time? Or flag up, kill them and deal with the consequences? 

This items paints more of a broken karma system picture than it does of a P2W system.

EDIT

My mistake there, the description does not mention it and when I tested it before making this post by dying to an Ogre and using it I still lost 1% EXP. Before 55, 1% EXP equates to 667 Sausans or 3 minutes and 20 seconds of grinding so it's no real issue as it mean free users have to spend 3 minutes more grinding. Don't know how much EXP you get after 55 as I'm currently only level 54, but what is the advantage of being level 56 over level 55? A small HP increase? A slightly larger stamina pool? It's your gear that matters the most correct? And that's not limited by level correct? So how is it P2W that you can 1% EXP back?

As for bosses and the tera allowing you to resurrect closer to the boss, is there also not the option of not dying? You are not forced to die, you can avoid the bosses attacks or play a ranged class. It's hardly a P2W system if you can avoid it by being a good player. 

Splat Fisher's Costume - +1 Fishing Ability, Faster swimming and Endurance consumption lowered whilst swimming

As with the Treant costume advantages, fishing ability is capped at 5. Once again you guild level can give you a max of 3, silver fishing costume gives you +1 at +0, steel fishing rod gives you +2. That's 6 points you get for free, so if your guild is only at +2 fishing you still can get +5 to your ability for free. Granted people could make the argument that not everyone's in a guild or that some guilds don't have the skill, but that's down to player choice rather than a paywall introduced by the game. So just like with the Treant costume, the buffs to abilities of this costumes can be recreated for free.

The faster swimming and endurance are options that can't be recreated for free, however they can be avoided by investing in a raft, rowing boat or fishing boat. Why swim everywhere when you can craft or buy a boat to take you there? People could make the argument that you still have to buy these items, but don't you also have to buy the fishing costume albeit with real money? The fishing costumes also merely allows you to swim faster and for longer, not forever. You can't use the costume to swim all the way from Velia to Ilya for instance. There is also the option to use health potions to recover the HP you lose when your endurance hits 0. 

Venia Riding Attire - +20% EXP to horse levelling

Unlike with the Treant and Splat costume, horse levelling EXP does stack so using cooked goods, a silver trainer costumes and horse scrolls will stack with this item. However, according to many thread discussing the horse market the prices of horses do not equate to the effort put into levelling higher tiered horses up to 30. I'll include items like breeding resets in this argument as well. Using this guide, the average time to get a TIER 4 horse from level 1 to level 30 is around 51.5 hours, with the cash shop costume this drops to 41.2 hours; a difference of 10 hours. For a TIER 6 horse, the average time to go from level 1 to level 30 is around 77.5 hours, with the cash shop costume this drops to 62 hours; a difference of 15 hours.

These difference may seem high, but there are two factors that must be considered, firstly it would take a cash shop user 5.16 attempts at levelling a tier 6 from 1 to 30 before they produce ONE extra horse over the free user. I'm ignoring the scroll buffs as these only last for 1 hour, however if the cash shop user was using the maximum amount of buffs and was popping them every hour it would still take 39 hours (20% from cash shop, 20% from scroll and 10% from silver trainer clothing +1) to level a tier 6 horse from 1 to 30. So a cash shop user would take approximately 201 hours to produce an extra level 30 horse over a free user.

Now look at the price of horses, how much silver could you earn in 201 hours?

Inventory space, carry weight and town storage

I had 89 slots of inventory from quests, but people have disagreed with me and claimed I'm either bugged or lying, so for arguments sake I'm going to use the bog standard 50 slots you get for free that others have claimed. The only time you're going to fill your inventory is via fishing and whilst it can be argued that this leads to more silver it also takes less than 5 minutes to run to town in order to sell the fish before getting back to your fishing spot (assuming you're using a hotspot) and if you are AFK fishing you are capped by the time rather than you inventory space. Granted a person who has more inventory space will be able to AFK fish for longer, but with AFK fishing you are also limited on how much silver you make and since there are better ways of making silver than AFK fishing it can't be claimed to be P2W.

The cash shop gives your character an additional 300 LT of carry weight, but you can avoid this by carrying your heavier items on a horse/donkey/ship/wagon as well as the fact that silver trading clothes give you extra carry weight; oh and let's not forget food buffs.

Town storage isn't P2W either as with the hardcap for CP being at 300, you're going to use all the maximum slots by buying up town storage before you run out of CP.

Cash shop cosmetics - +10 combat EXP and -10% EXP loss on death

I'm going to use grinding Sausans as an example here, at the moment I am making 0.0015% of an EXP per mob with no buffs on. This means I'd have to kill 66,666 Sausans to go from 0% to 100%. With the 10% bonus from a cash shop costume, this changes to 0.00165% per Sausan, or 60,606 Sausans to go from 0% to 100%; a difference of 6,060. On my Valkyrie it takes around 3 seconds to kill around 10 of the mob so a cash shop player will be spending approximately 1818 seconds less than a free user to reach the next level, or around 30 minutes. Now my numbers may be off a tad as this is going off my experience and shouldn't be taken as fact, but assuming I'm correct how is 30 minutes grinding less P2W when it is taking 5-6 hours (alone that is and no extra buffs) to grind to the next level?

Now let's look at the -10% EXP loss. Currently if I die I lose 1% of my EXP, so with the cash shop item I'm only losing 0.9% of my EXP; this is a difference of 0.1% or 66 extra Sausans. Using the above numbers, a free user would spend an extra 20 seconds grinding for the loss EXP over a paid user. 20 seconds, hella P2W!

Won't let me edit the post, but if I've missed an item out that you think is P2W then let me know and we can discuss it. 

Edited by Plunge
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Posted

honestly gotta ask why do we need another one of these threads?

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Posted

honestly gotta ask why do we need another one of these threads?

There's no thread detailing how BDO ISN'T P2W, least not in the past 5 pages. 

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Posted

Ever wondered why you respawn where you do when killed by Red Nose? I shouldn't have to say more.

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Posted (edited)

i'm sure this guy is severely autistic

Edited by airforce1s
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Posted (edited)

Who cares it's P2W or not.

It's the first game where the gear scaling is so insane, there is no way you can compete with ultra hardcore players.

This game you spend 99% of your time grinding mobs.

 

Better get a P2W game that is less gear dependant.

Edited by Jean Bernard

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Posted

Well, without getting into P2W arguments, I thought your post was a good read and I found it really helpful in deciding what, if anything, was worth purchasing from the cash shop. Thx

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Posted (edited)

i'm sure this guy is severely autistic

Don't autistic people repeatedly perform a mundane task as well? Such as continuously replying to a person with some form of insult because they can't refute their points? :) Honestly though, I have considered it at my points, has to be something wrong with my brain if I can sit at my desk playing Cities: Skyline for 14 hours whilst watching films just so I can build the perfect city. That being said, if you think typing a lot means autism, then wait till you get to university friend. 

Edited by Plunge
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Posted

There's no thread detailing how BDO ISN'T P2W, least not in the past 5 pages. 

Meh... it's still a P2W thread.

I doubt anything new will come up out of it because this whole thing gets discussed over and over and over.

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Posted (edited)

Doesn't autistic people repeatedly perform a mundane task as well? Such as continuously replying to a person with some form of insult because they can't refute their points? :) Honestly though, I have considered it at my points, has to be something wrong with my brain if I can sit at my desk playing Cities: Skyline for 14 hours whilst watching films just so I can build the perfect city. That being said, if you think typing a lot means autism, then wait till you get to university friend. 

a sure sign someone is autistic is that they can't let go of past occurrences. also not sure if you realize this but you have 824 posts which would fall under the 'repeatedly performing mundane tasks'.

Edited by airforce1s
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Posted

Shop granting major advantages like Tears making this rip off game p2w as f.

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Posted

Elion's tears most certainly do preserve your XP when you die.  When you die, you lose one (1) percent XP, if you utilize a Elion's tear to resurrect yourself on the spot it returns the one percent that you lost.  How is anybody supposed to take you seriously when you are completely ignorant of one of the most important issues with Elion's tears?  Losing one percent at 55+ is fairly significant.  

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Posted (edited)

i'm sure this guy is severely autistic

 because they can't refute their points? :)

? easy

Elion's Tear - Instant resurrection

Elion's tears don't save your EXP when you die

False, they do. 

Edited by Shawor

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Posted

 

I don't like you, so I am going to show everyone how cool I am by saying you have a developmental disorder that can be difficult to diagnose even with face to face screening and a specialized college degree because I am the f**king edgiest of edgelords.

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Posted

Elion's tears most certainly do preserve your XP when you die.  When you die, you lose one (1) percent XP, if you utilize a Elion's tear to resurrect yourself on the spot it returns the one percent that you lost.  How is anybody supposed to take you seriously when you are completely ignorant of one of the most important issues with Elion's tears?  Losing one percent at 55+ is fairly significant.  

My mistake there, the description does not mention it and when I tested it before making this post by dying to an Ogre and using it I still lost 1% EXP. Before 55, 1% EXP equates to 667 Sausans or 3 minutes and 20 seconds of grinding so it's no real issue as it mean free users have to spend 3 minutes more grinding. Don't know how much EXP you get after 55 as I'm currently only level 54, but what is the advantage of being level 56 over level 55? A small HP increase? A slightly larger stamina pool? It's your gear that matters the most correct? And that's not limited by level correct? So how is it P2W that you can 1% EXP back?

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Posted

Elion's tears most certainly do preserve your XP when you die.  When you die, you lose one (1) percent XP, if you utilize a Elion's tear to resurrect yourself on the spot it returns the one percent that you lost.  How is anybody supposed to take you seriously when you are completely ignorant of one of the most important issues with Elion's tears?  Losing one percent at 55+ is fairly significant.  

The main issue with the tears is that you can use them to resurrect at world bosses which gives you a greater chance at getting on the better loot table.

This topic doesn't cover other obvious pay-to-win items such as the horse skill training and change coupons, horse breeding resets, and (awakened) skill resets. OP also fails to consider the value of time in this game. The weight and inventory increases help a lot during grinding and fishing because they save you the time of having to run back to town to sell/trade in certain items. The combat exp bonus costumes give is pretty significant too.

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Posted

I don't like you, so I am going to show everyone how cool I am by saying you have a developmental disorder that can be difficult to diagnose even with face to face screening and a specialized college degree because I am the f**king edgiest of edgelords.

Don't know what you mean by this, I merely inferred that he was autistic after he claimed I was, tic for tac. 

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Posted

Don't know what you mean by this, I merely inferred that he was autistic after he claimed I was, tic for tac. 

I was actually mocking the people calling you autistic as a go-to.

Sorry if that wasn't more clear, was trying to make sure it tagged you.

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Posted (edited)

I might not call it all a P2W but it is so much P2 Convenience in the game that it feels like a F2P Game with P2W CS.

BDO Also has no level-cap and having a flat 10% experience boost in these matters is pretty big then and i'd call that P2W in a sort of a way. 
Do i care too much, no? but i still call it slightly P2W. 

Edited by Aimscoes

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Posted

All you people are so annoying just play the god damn game and if you buy things you buy them if not THEN DONT WORRY ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE!!!! FFS 

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Posted

All you people are so annoying just play the god damn game and if you buy things you buy them if not THEN DONT WORRY ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE!!!! FFS 

I guess you arent a pvper then.. the state of pvp literally depends on other people.

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Posted (edited)

Elions Tear is bullshit, period. Always has been, always will be when it comes to world bosses. It's also a MUST if you plan to level past the cap, because being randomly ganked by hackers and losing over an hours worth of work is not fun.

Since the start people called it out as being bullshit, lazy peon is 100% correct in his descrption of this item. Insta res at boss, do more damage, better loot.


how do you feel about this new thread?
@kirsch

Edited by Jack Sparrow
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Posted

Elions Tear is bullshit, period. Always has been, always will be when it comes to world bosses. It's also a MUST if you plan to level past the cap, because being randomly ganked by hackers and losing over an hours worth of work is not fun.

Since the start people called it out as being bullshit, lazy peon is 100% correct in his descrption of this item. Insta res at boss, do more damage, better loot.

Sparrow, please let me join your crew, i can handle cannons very good.

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Posted

honestly gotta ask why do we need another one of these threads?

Because it appears a lot of the community still doesn't want to belief facts over their wild inconsistent opinion.

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Posted

Sparrow, please let me join your crew, i can handle cannons very good.

Trouser cannons? if so, welcome aboard.

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