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Improving PVE gameplay and Monster AI


Rate your opinion of the standard AI monsters encountered in game   243 votes

  1. 1. What is your opinion of standard mobs in game?

    • Too easy, improve AI to create a challenge. (Please post any specific behaviors you want to see)
      135
    • Too easy, change monster stats to make them tougher. (which stats?)
      6
    • Too easy, improve AI and cange monster stats
      44
    • Just right, don't change anything
      46
    • Too hard, make the mobs even easier to kill
      12

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

121 posts in this topic

Posted

The topic of this discussion - Improving PVE gameplay and monster AI.

Anyone even mentioning PVP are on the wrong thread... Can't just show up forcing that down other's throats. That's why there's a forum full of various topics. People have preferences, if yours is PVP, move over to those discussions instead of belittling other players who aren't interested, with the seeming air of superiority. It may be more of a "challenge" but it's a whole different play style and mindset also. This game has different classes, and surely some players would rather party up to tackle monsters without it being a stomp fest with little resistance. If it's too easy then whatever depth the combat may have, becomes undermined and pointless if you can beat mobs with 1 or 2 buttons. And no, the existence of classes should not be there just to make PVP interesting, not on an MMO, else it might as well be a MOBA.

And I can guarantee a vast majority of PVE focused players do not wanna hear "Do PVP" as the solution to the issue being discussed. If any.

But I do hope it felt better to show up flexing those e-muscles. It's just the players here to address PVE, don't care. 9_9

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Posted (edited)

 

A warrior spotted an imp camp. One imp magician, imp warrior and imp midget. The player warrior rushed in for unprovoke kills. imp magician sense it and cast protection shield around the camp. Warrior cant enter. Suddenly imp warriors charging his ultimate rage skills 200% and jump up and spawn behind a warrior who were still figuring out how to disable the shield. With one critical strike from imp warrior, the warrior reduce hp by 80% and stiff( cant use potion ) . Meanwhile the midget imp, come out and use the club to knock the warrior arse which the warrior faint. imp magician cast fireball and finish the last 20% miserable life of warrior. All three imps level up. While the warrior respawn and stunt by the number of deaths per hour grinding. Lose exp ,lose crystal, lose faith and lost pride, defeated by lowbies mob. Hes been level 15 since beta and all imp knowledge still FF. Fish Forever. 

At the end of the story, the warrior still desperate and trying to get exp by hunting glass beetles and weasels for slow experience. Still difficult to hunt glass beetles due to camo and high HP. (same as pirate, I was told ). And the weasel need to slash its head accurately in order to get XP> By the way the warrior using Milk Tea and XP bonus exp but he still 15 as number of deaths surpass number of grass beetle kills.  

The numbers of low experience is plenty in town feeling miserable. The pvp were finally resort to player cannibalism in order to level up. Guild Master were forced to plan and trick his own guildmates by party accident kills in order to advance experiences as the lowbie mobs is more dodgeable than his stupid guildmates. alas he resort to kill any afk fisherman and riders. Still not contented, he will use hack programs to kill afk players in safezone. :S:S:S

Edited by OmahaBeach

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Posted

 

A warrior spotted an imp camp. One imp magician, imp warrior and imp midget. The player warrior rushed in for unprovoke kills. imp magician sense it and cast protection shield around the camp. Warrior cant enter. Suddenly imp warriors charging his ultimate rage skills 200% and jump up and spawn behind a warrior who were still figuring out how to disable the shield. With one critical strike from imp warrior, the warrior reduce hp by 80% and stiff( cant use potion ) . Meanwhile the midget imp, come out and use the club to knock the warrior arse which the warrior faint. imp magician cast fireball and finish the last 20% miserable life of warrior. All three imps level up. While the warrior respawn and stunt by the number of deaths per hour grinding. Lose exp ,lose crystal, lose faith and lost pride, defeated by lowbies mob. Hes been level 15 since beta and all imp knowledge still FF. Fish Forever. 

At the end of the story, the warrior still desperate and trying to get exp by hunting glass beetles and weasels for slow experience. Still difficult to hunt glass beetles due to camo and high HP. (same as pirate, I was told ). And the weasel need to slash its head accurately in order to get XP> By the way the warrior using Milk Tea and XP bonus exp but he still 15 as number of deaths surpass number of grass beetle kills.  

The numbers of low experience is plenty in town feeling miserable. The pvp were finally resort to player cannibalism in order to level up. Guild Master were forced to plan and trick his own guildmates by party accident kills in order to advance experiences as the lowbie mobs is more dodgeable than his stupid guildmates. alas he resort to kill any afk fisherman and riders. Still not contented, he will use hack programs to kill afk players in safezone. :S:S:S

 

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Posted

There is a reason mob ai is kept simple - server load increase the calculations per mob and you just increase load. I'm sure everyone wants that. 

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Posted

There we go. xD:

*Monster’s HP has been decreased and damage from monsters has been decreased in all areas*

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Posted

There we go. xD:

*Monster’s HP has been decreased and damage from monsters has been decreased in all areas*

seems the easy become easiest with the stupidest AI ever found in a game. I like this game a lot but pve and AI could really be implemented for the good af all (pvpers included). Just changing like FFXIV for example where you can hardly kill just 1 mob of your level and to kill more you NEED a party otherwise is impossible. To kill big groups need bigger party that's the logic. In this way all ppl are happy the space is enough for all, no spot whining, players learn to role and skill and ppl learn to cooperate for good. Is so simple and don't need to alter the game because is already done,  just move some threshold of mobs and react more than now are just stupid. So make normal mobs move like are now only elite or bosses and work to make elite and bosses harder in order to force ppl to use strategies and cooperate otherwise like is now is just a boring autistic gameplay

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Posted

I would love to see mobs to be more clever and avoid things..try to fall back in order to get help from other mobs.. try to hide behind objects when they have low hp try to flee...when they see player to be low hp to try even more insisting to finish them....  kinda like it was in Darkfall there was the best mobs i seen in any games...sometimes mobs seems to be more clever and chalenging than players and thats not because they had op stats... difficulty based on stats its bad mechanic and i dont like it all......

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Posted

Whatever it is, I think it's dumb that ranged mobs have auto targets.

Talking about wizards who can shoot you from behind the wall, or archers who shot while facing the opposite directions.

Supposedly you can only walk away from the direction of the projectiles butno, when you're practically away from the direction but still taking hits.

 

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Posted (edited)

I've programmed a variety of AI scripts in Modding from RTS to FPS.  So I know the whole endless Case Booleon nightmare you can get into to the point that I was causing visible slowdowns in 16 bit games running on newer Pentiums.  And don't even get me started on browser flash game trying to run on Chrome.....

Smarter A.I. is a nice concept but it always runs into the wall of "fastest pathfinding" limitations.  For an MMO with "no Loading screens" accross its server sectors, and TONS of mobs regularly meandering on their own, I think it's their SKILL DESIGNS being the only place you can really tinker with Performance endangering variables.  The best examples I could point to on any online RPG in the past decade being GuildWars which "combined their might". With  that in mind, I'd argue that the AI should:

  • ALWAYS Work together by Buffing / Healing nearby allied combatants.  Multiply those buffs when lots of Mobs are "herded together".
  • Give the mobs such strong Abilities that they literally demand a "Kill-order" if enough of them are clumped together.
  • Have protection and dash Abilities that lets it convert high DPS against its allies into Heals & super jank lunging to punish Glass-Cannon farming Metas
  • Don't be afraid to give lots of mobs LARGE sweeping Patrol routes that makes the player more paranoid about their positioning.
  • Put high damage Snipers freaking everywhere that has high desirability farming.  Like how they've got Shadow Wizards guarding Monastary... and literally Snipers and Cannon guys in Sausan.  Those guys add a lot more depth to tank & spank
  • "Consider" its opponent just like the human player considers it,  IE:  call reinforcements against high Gearscore or overleveled Foes
  • Have it go into an invulnerable state during reinforcement Summoning if it took "too much DPS" in too short a time.
  • but always try to 1v1 a player below its level to prevent  "Clown Car" effect when being pulled 1 by 1.
  • Fight with other races if they accidentally hit eachother just like good old Reliable DOOM mobs for that added depth
  • Do something different pathing-wise against Mounted wizzies / rangers.... and summon "turret AI" Musket reinforcements
  • DON'T allow the mobs to chain stun though.  Chain debuffing is one thing but NO ONE will keep playing a game that chain stuns them.
  • DON'T just give every mob the same exact "poise" (Rotation speed)... make some of them more vulnerable to backstabs than others.

 

Bonus difficulty.... this is probably considered too Taboo to a lot of Scrubby PVE'ers but... give certain mobs Rez's like this f***er: 

Arch-vile-from-Doom-2.jpg

Edited by iller

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Posted

This thread, I smell a lot of bs lol.

No one wants to be perceived as a lazy bum, so they vote for harder mobs. But in reality, they would avoid any harder zone with challenging mobs, unless massive reward&incentive for going there and working your butt, spamming pots and iframing around like a mofo.

Take Hasrah or Pirate Island pre nerf(actually 2 massive nerfs so far), wasn't a single player there grinding or farming because legit hard. Now when it's faceroll easy, it's often contested and even crowded at times. Yet I'm seeing that 57% votes for harder mobs. Doesn't add up :S

 

 

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Posted

First off people just claiming "do PVP" are gonna have a fun time PVPing when the game shuts down.  When you get a new player in only for that player to realize after lvl 15 that this "amazing action combat game" with fantastic looking combat is as boring as it will ever been in any game they've played and therefore quickly uninstalls the game you have a bad business model.

This model was fine in Asia. It's not here. You can (the Devs) either continue being stubborn and force the square peg into the round hole or you fix it.  Otherwise it will die and it will die hard.  Word travels at light speed these days.  It's already out there and it will do nothing but build.  Sorry PVP will not carry a game in this region, it just won't, not a "sandbox" game anyway.

Peoples responses here are mind blowing, acting like we somehow suddenly don't know for a fact that people play MMO's for different reasons and telling someone who doesn't want to craft and fish all day to just do that or if they don't like PVP to just do that and these answers are actually a FIX and it will somehow make them stay is truly amazing to hear. All this with a 57% agreement in that direction staring them in the face.

Thin out the mobs, and make the remaining more of a challenge and dynamic and something worthy of this "great action combat" or prepare the equipment to be sold off wholesale and find another job.  May sound harsh but it's the facts.

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Posted

Thin out the mobs, and make the remaining more of a challenge and dynamic and something worthy of this "great action combat" or prepare the equipment to be sold off wholesale and find another job.  

May sound harsh but it's the facts.

65637393.jpg

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Posted (edited)

The amount of wholly ignorance here is amazing. I had someone tell me last night Crowfall is going to fail because of having stat acumen's and that it won't have the financial support to keep it a float over the coming months and it's going to just flop on it's face. Are people really going to pull a Nostradamus on this game and try to be the all knowing wisdom that forsee's BDO's future. Oh tell us sagacious one, what will become of our precious game in the coming winter months? 

Putting my facetious behavior aside, I'm a new player and I like the game. I've played many MMO's that have mob grinding. Not sure why this is new to anyone it's not an "Asian" business model of any sort. It's an MMO model all around. You want something, you farm it, simple as that. I haven't reached end-game yet, but the amount of negative Nancy nay-sayers on this forum is amazing. It's one of the reasons why the NA region is frowned upon and a reason why I switched to EU (Better people, less negativity). Overall I am quite positive that the game will be fine. Rome wasn't built in a day. Not sure why people can't take a game at face value for what it is and not what is isn't. It's a PvE/PvP Sandbox game. Sure there are some AI issues, but I'm not gonna complain? Because why look a gift horse in the mouth. People here complain too much already that mob grinding is boring/a chore. Do you really want them to just crank up the overall difficulty and have you sit there churning mobs for hours with a much higher difficulty and a lower turnover rate on loot? 

A lot of you also have a really bad crab mentality that you should get out of, since it seems to be a trending thing with most NA communities sadly. If you don't know what a crab mentality is, I suggest you use your Google-Fu. I don't give hand out's and I don't give out tl;dr's. Read once and awhile you lepton!  

P.S - Aww yiss, 5 post count.

Edited by Paislee

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Posted (edited)

Ok, I'll put my answer here and completely ignore all the discussion about PvP as this is a PvE thread.

It would be amazing to have an AI for bosses like the one in Dark Soul. You know...special attacks, different strategies for each boss...something more related to player skills instead of toon skills. Just for the bosses, leave the trash mobs like they are, so the server will not be too heavy (at least I hope so). And add tons of bosses. I LOVE killing big badass bosses !!!

Should I mention Devil May Cry too ? Don't ask me why and yes I know they are both SP games. But SP games have better combat mechanics, so if I need to choose at least I aim high. I would love some frenetic action in a combat :D

Edited by Malcom86

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Posted

I don't think its so much an issue with the AI, its more of "what":

Example: I like to farm at the Sulfur; like the area, feel and mobs there (drops as a Thumbs up!). But, I have killed how many of these mobs? Thousands, by that time, as a Warrior, I become "experienced" with them, I know how to fight in such a way to use no potions and can maintain that. What we need, is something to change the premise of "kill thousands, boring now!", and here's how (In my sense):

Allow a Boss mob and "seekers" to be added to locations: These act as elite units; "Seekers" spawn after a certain kill amount, and can be of many variety. Weaker then the Gate-keepers, but tough mechanic wise (All mobs in the area they spawn in act differently as well!) After we have defeated a few seekers, a Boss will summon us to face them (Scale to groups/Solo player) (We get the scroll) and we then head to the location and face them. The idea of these bosses, unlike the normal summon scrolls/world bosses is to take time and actively fight to beat. They can be of different versions per area, and can have phases.

We just need something besides the same mobs over and over again, need some variety.

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Posted

I don't think its so much an issue with the AI, its more of "what":

Example: I like to farm at the Sulfur; like the area, feel and mobs there (drops as a Thumbs up!). But, I have killed how many of these mobs? Thousands, by that time, as a Warrior, I become "experienced" with them, I know how to fight in such a way to use no potions and can maintain that. What we need, is something to change the premise of "kill thousands, boring now!", and here's how (In my sense):

Allow a Boss mob and "seekers" to be added to locations: These act as elite units; "Seekers" spawn after a certain kill amount, and can be of many variety. Weaker then the Gate-keepers, but tough mechanic wise (All mobs in the area they spawn in act differently as well!) After we have defeated a few seekers, a Boss will summon us to face them (Scale to groups/Solo player) (We get the scroll) and we then head to the location and face them. The idea of these bosses, unlike the normal summon scrolls/world bosses is to take time and actively fight to beat. They can be of different versions per area, and can have phases.

We just need something besides the same mobs over and over again, need some variety.

I partially agree with the idea, but still...if the elites are just other sacks of hp, just tougher and with a different appearance, I don't see a solution to the problem.

If you say those elites have some actual skills and apply different strategies to fight the player, than yes !!!

And here is one of my curiosity: why modern MMOs doesn't learn from old good arcade games where you had to memorize the Boss moves :D ?? It was such a simple strategy, but always funny !!!

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Posted

I partially agree with the idea, but still...if the elites are just other sacks of hp, just tougher and with a different appearance, I don't see a solution to the problem.

If you say those elites have some actual skills and apply different strategies to fight the player, than yes !!!

And here is one of my curiosity: why modern MMOs doesn't learn from old good arcade games where you had to memorize the Boss moves :D ?? It was such a simple strategy, but always funny !!!

Yes, the Elites will have skills based on what kind they are, and could perhaps have a slight change in those skills if more people are in the group that summons him.

Karanda has a very basic concept here: Her Feather Rain ability (if she lands first, then takes to the sky, Move away. Just takes to the sky, Get close) So the sense is there, but needs more, much more!

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Posted

MMO AI isnt very intelligent. They are just huge bullet sponges. You need a tank to tank their physical and magic damage. And then have a healer heal and buff the tank. While damage dealers try to deplete monster to zero. Sometimes some little pattern might be used. Like aoe spells to punish melee at random. Or red marks appear on the screen telegraphing to the players where its next spell is going to land. Stuff like that.

 

Maybe they can add an arena mode where you fight a goblin that can block and evade your attacks at a 70 percent chance by performing an evade or a block 70 percent of the time. And their moves are slow and telegraphy. So you can dodge their attacks when they look like they are about to strike. And if you mess up the block or dodge. You die in two hits. Basically Dark Souls.

 

But Im with Paislee. Grinding is pretty much staple in MMOs. The alternative is to run back to your corpse every 5 minutes like in Dark Souls.

 

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Posted (edited)

But Im with Paislee. Grinding is pretty much staple in MMOs. The alternative is to run back to your corpse every 5 minutes like in Dark Souls.

What if you make an MMO where grinding is finally not staple anymore ? (づ ͟ل͜ )づ

And having a better AI doesn't mean Dark Soul...means more like retro gaming (less heavy on server too, I suppose).

Edited by Malcom86

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Posted

u want a challenge? go to valencia instead of helms or sausans

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Posted

u want a challenge? go to valencia instead of helms or sausans

Except some gatekeepers or underground ruins, which are designed for groups, you won't find more challenge in Valencia sadly.

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