• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

SHOULD COSTUMES BE SOLD ON AH FOR SILVER


578 posts in this topic

Posted

Are you trying to tell me bots bring life to a game? lol.  The economy is just fine, and the trading takes place with pre-determined prices and is done with silver that's earned in game.

Did I say I wanted bots ?... no. Trading with pre determined pricing, is not economy. Player economy's are central to any decent MMO. If the devs did their research they would know that it is impossible to kill bots completely, If they bothered to take note from EVE for instance, they would see it can be minimized, an has ZERO to do with crafting/economy etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

 

that really hurted me, looked like I admitted defeat. But still the marketplace is an option to do it, 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Simple answer, yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

uuu, 72 instead of 80... uuuu. This makes p2w completely false.

+17 is 50m. +15 is 18m. You're telling me that with 48m you can't buy a 18m item? Do you even math bruh? Need i remember you that via cashshop buff you remove the AH tax, so you do get 72m???

Yea, problem is that it's a game that requires you to play not to be a whale. So, he could play another game.

 

Math is hard for some ppl.  :(

It's not a matter of $70. Wallet warriors don't always care if the cost is $10 or $100. Whales will pump in as much money as they like and the total is often no concern. If it cost $1 for it to be p2w and there was a $5 limit you'd see a lot of people change their opinion. I think any amount of P2W is wrong, but it becomes a massive problem when staying competitive requires a monthly expense equal to my mortgage.

On other thing that is important to think about is everyone that is playing when it launches has paid for the game. We paid for the experience. The version of the game someone gets at $30 is the same as mine at $100 (not a bait for HS or cosmetic QQ). Mr. Whale shouldn't get a super awesome experience that I cannot hope to achieve because he spends 1k a month. If the game is in a position where it needs whales to survive then it is likely fallen apart to the point where a majority of players have left and it has reached the death throes. 

There is no reason for a new launch to even consider relying on whales before it is absolutely required. I am all for Daum or any publisher making great profits. I am not for any publisher doing it at the expense of quality game play to satisfy the urge to money grab and act without regard to the interest of the community they are supposed to service. 

Daum EU has thus far impressed me with their community engagement. I have no reason to believe they would act against the interests of the community; however, it is easy to lose track of your path if you only go off course an inch at a time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Hello community. As we are all aware the devs in the PM Dairy 2.2 stated "if they allow cash shop items to be sold on the marketplace" which for some leaves the notion that they will implement a window for pay2win players to gain an unfair advantage. I have been defending why it shouldn't be allowed on the PM Dairy but some users such as @Colt556 are adamant that it will not break the game for x amount of reasons.

So should costumes be allowed to be bought with real life money and sold for ingame money? Please give a Yes/No answer and state the reason why you picked that.

I would like to get you some arguments raised in the PM Dairy between myself and @Colt556 as it will help show both sides to the argument.

@Colt556 arguments are as followed, with my counter arguments.

  1. Its not pay2win if the players put materials there for whales to buy as it was earned by the player --- Regardless of where the materials come from, you are giving the whale millions/billions of silver to purchase all the materials on the marketplace, allowing him 2 upgrade his gear and gain a massive advantage on stats.
  2. Cash shop worked in other MMOs so it should work here --- I stated because elements worked in other MMOs does not at all mean it'll work here as the cash shop on Korea has already proven. Also, megaserver is a prime example as it works wonders in some MMOs, however it completely destroyed this one.
  3. It doesn't matter if I get killed by someone who pay2win or a no-lifer as they both will have better gear than me --- I stated the fact one has earned his game through time and effort playing the actual game, the other has spent seconds/minutes using real life money to gain massive amounts of silver resulting in a massive advantage.
  4. It doesn't matter if someone pays their way to the best gear as others will eventually catch up --- First I asked him to show me the non-Koreans who are +20 gear but he refused. Secondly, he stated allowing players such power is not a problem as it will not effect him. I mentioned it will effect many others at end-game.
  5. It isn't pay2win as someone earned their money too purchase the costumes --- Again I mention it isn't the purchaser who is paying2win its the seller who convers his real money into massive amounts of silver.
  6. Korean launched the game with cash shop resulting in the whole playerbase knowing what was coming --- I asked for a quote to back this up, I am yet to receive that quote. I stated that the cash shop was implement after launch and a lot of the player base was skeptical about it. I also showed in that pre cash shop the game was top 10 in the Korean MMO charts, after the implantation of the cash shop, it plummeted down too the bottom 100s.
  7. Cash shop items that can be turned in for ingame currency didn't upset other games GvG based --- I showed him video proof of how devastating gear can be in BDO once Valencia comes. He laughed this off and said it was due to levels. I also stated how guilds can 1 shot our English players because they pay2win, destroying the endgame.
  8. Gear for a whale doesn't magically appear --- Gear can be obtained via silver or one can buy all the materials required to upgrade and craft his gear.
  9. You're a no-life so you will have an unfair advantage that's is considered p2w itself --- Despite me never mentioning the amount of time I have to play, I reiterated the fact that players who put time and effort into this game should and shall get rewarded for their commitment.
  10. You wont be able to tell the difference between a pay2win or players who grinded for gear, thus gameplay is unchanged --- Again, if players are getting one shot you can tell the difference.
  11. I can't afford the costumes but whales can do support the devs for me --- This would cause disruption between all players as the community doesn't like pay2win systems, plus we've seen the long term negative effectives of this system on KR.
  12. It isn't turning real money in to silver that's the problem, its the gear - To somewhat we agreed, he denied gear was broken after I showed him video evidence. It took a statement from a third party who is in a GvG guild, confirming gear is broken, for him to believe. Nevertheless, I reminded him that this game will always have a heavy gear progression system. hopefully that isn't broken as it is now with +15 to +20. I told him gaining silver would still cause whales to have an unfair big advantage, maybe one that doesn't one shot people, but still an advantage. My example was as followed, a +15 will still have a big advantage of the +10 player, despite the gear scaling from +5 to +15 being nothing like +15 to +20.
  13. You cant pay2win because gear is RNG --- Each time you fail once enchant you gain 1 failstack, which increase your % of successfully enchanting your gear next time. Allowing a player a vast amount of silver will eventually make RNG irrelevant as he will of gained enough failstacks to successful enchant.

These are just some of the arguments from the PM diary 2.2 between myself and @Colt556. There are more there if you want to read. I wanted Colt to make this thread as he firmly believes he is correct. I asked him to make a thread so he can see what the majority actually wants and not what he wants. He has shown he has little knowledge of the game and I suggested it would do him some good talking to the majority and hearing their opinions.

So lastly, Should costumes be purchasable with real money and sold for silver? Silver which can be used by Whales to upgrade their gear. Yes/No and why?

i am with you. whale will buy cs anyways regadless whether it can be sold or not. a dying community has fewer whales. so lets not kill off our whales by killing off our community with P2W

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

that really hurted me, looked like I admitted defeat. But still the marketplace is an option to do it, 

it isn't. the price range of an item is set by the game itself. not only that but there is also a delay when you post an item before it's actually up for sale.

Edited by Katsuragi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I don't think the game will last without it. The gear has to exist in order for the person to buy it in the first place. Selling items from the cash shop doesn't create top tier items out of thin air. 

So, Player A has awesome gear, sells it on the AH. Player B buys it. Does it really matter if Player B got his silver from grinding all day versus selling an item on the AH? I guess the argument is a single person can buy all the top gear versus only being able to maybe afford 1 single piece. In my mind the real problem then is gear holds too much value. 

That's my biggest fear for the game after playing on KR for the last 1.5 months. It's gear > level > skill. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

don't think the game will last without it. The gear has to exist in order for the person to buy it in the first place. Selling items from the cash shop doesn't create top tier items out of thin air. 

So, Player A has awesome gear, sells it on the AH. Player B buys it. Does it really matter if Player B got his silver from grinding all day versus selling an item on the AH? I guess the argument is a single person can buy all the top gear versus only being able to maybe afford 1 single piece. In my mind the real problem then is gear holds too much value. 

That's my biggest fear for the game after playing on KR for the last 1.5 months. It's gear > level > skill. 

it does matter. Player B could have played a year and cannot affort it but someone who is lvl 5 and played 1 day could....there is a problem with that. especially since there is no gear lvl requirements

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

it does matter. Player B could have played a year and cannot affort it but someone who is lvl 5 and played 1 day could....there is a problem with that. especially since there is no gear lvl requirements

The end result is the same though. I don't understand the fairness claim at all. The game is built on RNG, not fairness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The end result is the same though. I don't understand the fairness claim at all. The game is built on RNG, not fairness.

 RNGesus is equal to all. wallets are not and remove the value from someones hard work and feeling of accomplishment(and a player that plays a year+ is more valueable than a wallet warrior that causes ppl to quit)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

 RNGesus is equal to all. wallets are not and remove the value from someones hard work and feeling of accomplishment(and a player that plays a year+ is more valueable than a wallet warrior that causes ppl to quit)

How do you tell a whale apart from a grinder? Completely overpowered/unbalanced gameplay will cause people to quit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

How do you tell a whale apart from a grinder? Completely overpowered/unbalanced gameplay will cause people to quit.

because a true grinder never has a full set of end game gear at lvl 10. a true grinder gears some because it is an investment and you never go all in until you know it is worth investing into

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

If they remove all combat related stat bonuses and effects as well as any crafting bonuses from the cash shop, then this won't be an issue to begin with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

because a true grinder never has a full set of end game gear at lvl 10. a true grinder gears some because it is an investment and you never go all in until you know it is worth investing into

That doesn't make sense. A nolife grinder will have as much +20 gear as any whale. According to Korea's pricing, a whale would be able to make a max of 500m silver a month. A nolife grinder can make just as much if not more than that in a month. As such that nolife grinder can buy just as many blackstones or pre-enchanted gear as the whale can.

So basically the end result is you're running around the world and some dude in overpowered +20 gear comes and kills you. It is absolutely 100% impossible for you to know whether the grinded for that gear or sold cash shop items for it. You simply can't know. So if you're fine with him killing you if he spent all day everyday grinding, why would you care if he got that gear by selling cash shop items? The end result, for you, is the exact same. You're still dead and he still has +20 gear.

All this fear mongering over whales when it's going to be the nolifers who are the first ones with +20 gear and the ones dominating everyone else.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Yes, obviously with caveats (Limit to how MUCH is bought/sold).

I'll probably have about 10 hours to spend on BDO per week (Having a job, wife, etc.), but I also want the opportunity to compete ON EQUAL TERMS with nolifers, or at least just enjoy PvP in general without feeling like my lack of time guarantees that I'll lose every match-up.

No-lifers can spend time to gain the gear, why can't people with jobs/life spend money to keep up (PLEASE NOTE: KEEP UP)?

If you want to prevent people from "buying an advantage" (Keeping up), fine, then I propose we place a limit on the amount of hours you can play BDO, let's say, 14 hours per week, if you're so interested in an even playing field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Yes, obviously with caveats (Limit to how MUCH is bought/sold).

I'll probably have about 10 hours to spend on BDO per week (Having a job, wife, etc.), but I also want the opportunity to compete ON EQUAL TERMS with nolifers, or at least just enjoy PvP in general without feeling like my lack of time guarantees that I'll lose every match-up.

No-lifers can spend time to gain the gear, why can't people with jobs/life spend money to keep up (PLEASE NOTE: KEEP UP)?

If you want to prevent people from "buying an advantage" (Keeping up), fine, then I propose we place a limit on the amount of hours you can play BDO, let's say, 14 hours per week, if you're so interested in an even playing field.

Here is the problem. You have no lifers that will also do what you do, spend money to advance, so you will still not be able to keep up and instead the gap will just get wider and wider.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

That doesn't make sense. A nolife grinder will have as much +20 gear as any whale. According to Korea's pricing, a whale would be able to make a max of 500m silver a month. A nolife grinder can make just as much if not more than that in a month. As such that nolife grinder can buy just as many blackstones or pre-enchanted gear as the whale can.

So basically the end result is you're running around the world and some dude in overpowered +20 gear comes and kills you. It is absolutely 100% impossible for you to know whether the grinded for that gear or sold cash shop items for it. You simply can't know. So if you're fine with him killing you if he spent all day everyday grinding, why would you care if he got that gear by selling cash shop items? The end result, for you, is the exact same. You're still dead and he still has +20 gear.

All this fear mongering over whales when it's going to be the nolifers who are the first ones with +20 gear and the ones dominating everyone else.

Most of the people that quit P2W games aren't directly attacked or grief PK'ed by some pay 2 win maniac. They quit because they play games and desire an element of equity or fairness n a game they purchased to play. If a game feels unfair to play, why play it? P2W doesn't just affect the few people who abuse the system, it ruins the reputation of the whole game to almost all paying customers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Here is the problem. You have no lifers that will also do what you do, spend money to advance, so you will still not be able to keep up and instead the gap will just get wider and wider.

I understand that worry, but I don't want to be "the best", I just want to be able to hold my own the majority of the time (Win or lose, just without the sense that it was an all-gear stomp). The gear being bought is created in-game by players, the nolifers who ALSO spend money may be ahead at the start, but nolifers and spenders will catch up, giving everyone the ability to even things out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Most of the people that quit P2W games aren't directly attacked or grief PK'ed by some pay 2 win maniac. They quit because they play games and desire an element of equity or fairness n a game they purchased to play. If a game feels unfair to play, why play it? P2W doesn't just affect the few people who abuse the system, it ruins the reputation of the whole game to almost all paying customers.

Most people don't quit a game because it has the ability to trade cash shop items in game. 90% of players don't care because it doesn't directly affect them. If they can't see this supposed 'unfairness' they just do not care. That's the way of the average MMO player. Only the hardcore 'competitive' players care enough to -----, let alone quit. Your average player just wants to run around and have fun and doesn't care how someone got ahead of them because they already know there will be people stronger than them, so it doesn't matter.

As I've said many times there has never been even one MMO that was negatively impacted by allowing cosmetic cash shop items to be sold. Not even one. And that's because it's a non-intrusive system that doesn't affect the gameplay of anyone.

Also you hit the nail on the head there. If a game FEELS unfair. But that's the thing, the game doesn't feel unfair. It feels perfectly fair. You don't notice any unfairness while playing. You can't tell the people who paid apart from those who didn't. You can't notice any difference in your grinding or questing. Nothing changes. If nothing changes you don't feel it's unfair. If you don't feel it's unfair you simply don't care.

Many of the most popular and active MMOs in NA, right now, employ this very system. So don't sit there and tell me it drives people away because that is factually false. It isn't selling cash shop items that hurts the game, it's what items are being sold. If it's purely cosmetic then it doesn't hurt anything, period.

Here is the problem. You have no lifers that will also do what you do, spend money to advance, so you will still not be able to keep up and instead the gap will just get wider and wider.

And those people are a tiny minority of the playerbase. Big deal. The odds of even running into one of those people are so extraordinarily high you could run around PVPing for six months and never see even one of them.

And even if they do, so what? There's a cap. They rush their way to the ceiling and then what? They're stuck there as everyone else catches up. It simply isn't a big deal in this type of game.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I understand that worry, but I don't want to be "the best", I just want to be able to hold my own the majority of the time (Win or lose, just without the sense that it was an all-gear stomp). The gear being bought is created in-game by players, the nolifers who ALSO spend money may be ahead at the start, but nolifers and spenders will catch up, giving everyone the ability to even things out.

Then this game may not be for you. Also, no you won't catch up, because if we get content as fast as KR is, there will always be more to go, meaning you just get farther and farther behind. Add in things like the gear gap, this game is simply not friendly to the occasional pick up and play, even with being able to buy progress.

 

And those people are a tiny minority of the playerbase. Big deal. The odds of even running into one of those people are so extraordinarily high you could run around PVPing for six months and never see even one of them.

And even if they do, so what? There's a cap. They rush their way to the ceiling and then what? They're stuck there as everyone else catches up. It simply isn't a big deal in this type of game.

I tiny population can have huge effects on the games. There was a post about this somewhere on the forums with articles on the subject. Cap? you know there is no level gap, and the enchant cap will be increased at regular intervals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

That doesn't make sense. A nolife grinder will have as much +20 gear as any whale. According to Korea's pricing, a whale would be able to make a max of 500m silver a month. A nolife grinder can make just as much if not more than that in a month. As such that nolife grinder can buy just as many blackstones or pre-enchanted gear as the whale can.

So basically the end result is you're running around the world and some dude in overpowered +20 gear comes and kills you. It is absolutely 100% impossible for you to know whether the grinded for that gear or sold cash shop items for it. You simply can't know. So if you're fine with him killing you if he spent all day everyday grinding, why would you care if he got that gear by selling cash shop items? The end result, for you, is the exact same. You're still dead and he still has +20 gear.

All this fear mongering over whales when it's going to be the nolifers who are the first ones with +20 gear and the ones dominating everyone else.

Yes, But a nolifer does is efficient with their money which means they hate to waste. so they gear enough to level efficiently but not waste silver unless they are finally committed to the class.

That's why you see people who grind still dont have +20 on new char's its hard enough to get and its a real commitment. so real grinders wont waste ALL OF THAT EFFORT on a class they arent committed to 100%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Yes, But a nolifer does is efficient with their money which means they hate to waste. so they gear enough to level efficiently but not waste silver unless they are finally committed to the class.

That's why you see people who grind still dont have +20 on new char's its hard enough to get and its a real commitment. so real grinders wont waste ALL OF THAT EFFORT on a class they arent committed to 100%

Doesn't matter. There'll be plenty of whales who don't like to waste either and aren't going to want to commit to a class they aren't sure they'll keep. That sort of thing isn't exclusive to nolifers. There will be some nolifers who already know they're going to commit to a certain class and rush that. Just as there will be whales who do the same. These two groups competing for the top doesn't affect the majority of players, though.

Then this game may not be for you. Also, no you won't catch up, because if we get content as fast as KR is, there will always be more to go, meaning you just get farther and farther behind. Add in things like the gear gap, this game is simply not friendly to the occasional pick up and play, even with being able to buy progress.

I tiny population can have huge effects on the games. There was a post about this somewhere on the forums with articles on the subject. Cap? you know there is no level gap, and the enchant cap will be increased at regular intervals.

For the majority of players a tiny majority being at the cap doesn't affect their game in any way. As for the 'regular intervals', not that regular. If they're dumping out new tiers every two months we have way bigger problems than simply selling cash shop items on the AH.

Edit: Also, if it's 100% impossible for an average player to catch a nolifer anyways why does it matter if cash shop items can be sold? The average player wont catch the nolifer even if cash shop items can't be sold.So if they're always going to be behind may as well give them access to costumes and pets to enjoy their permanent station in 2nd class.

Edited by Colt556

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

 

For the majority of players a tiny majority being at the cap doesn't affect their game in any way. As for the 'regular intervals', not that regular. If they're dumping out new tiers every two months we have way bigger problems than simply selling cash shop items on the AH.

Again there has been article and research done on tiny populations effecting the game in large ways. Also there have been 2 jumps in KR on gear cap. It is now at +25 when the vast majority, even no lifers don't even have +20. People who expect to keep or catch up to those that can both no life and pay are foolish.

Edited by Noth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Doesn't matter. There'll be plenty of whales who don't like to waste either and aren't going to want to commit to a class they aren't sure they'll keep. That sort of thing isn't exclusive to nolifers. There will be some nolifers who already know they're going to commit to a certain class and rush that. Just as there will be whales who do the same. These two groups competing for the top doesn't affect the majority of players, though.

For the majority of players a tiny majority being at the cap doesn't affect their game in any way. As for the 'regular intervals', not that regular. If they're dumping out new tiers every two months we have way bigger problems than simply selling cash shop items on the AH.

Edit: Also, if it's 100% impossible for an average player to catch a nolifer anyways why does it matter if cash shop items can be sold? The average player wont catch the nolifer even if cash shop items can't be sold.So if they're always going to be behind may as well give them access to costumes and pets to enjoy their permanent station in 2nd class.

The fact that PEOPLE CAN DO IT. is what kills it for the PVP community. Fairness is a big thing to the PVP community otherwise people start to accuse of P2W and starts a toxic snowball that none of us want here in our game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The fact that PEOPLE CAN DO IT. is what kills it for the PVP community. Fairness is a big thing to the PVP community otherwise people start to accuse of P2W and starts a toxic snowball that none of us want here in our game

Sounds like a personal problem, really. If you're the type go "P2W!" just because someone killed you, that's on you. Especially when it's impossible for you know how they obtained their gear. If you feel the need to go around slinging baseless claims just because the possibility is there and ruin your game because of it, that's on you

As I keep saying, there is no objective downside to this system. The only people 'affected' are the tiny tiny tiny minority who take this game too seriously and cry every time anyone anywhere kills them. But knowing those types they'd cry that it's unfair for other reasons even if cash shop items aren't sold. Because ultimately they don't care about fairness, they care about winning. The game shouldn't be built around 1% of the community.

Again there has been article and research done on tiny populations effecting the game in large ways. Also there have been 2 jumps in KR on gear cap. It is now at +25 when the vast majority, even no lifers don't even have +20. People who expect to keep or catch up to those that can both no life and pay are foolish.

You're proving my point, you know. If the average player can't catch up to a nolifer then it doesn't matter if a whale catches up. Either way the average player (which is like 90% of the playerbase) wont ever catch up. So if they're going to permanently be weaker than those at the top, it really does not matter how those people go to the top now does it?

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This topic is now closed to further replies.