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SHOULD COSTUMES BE SOLD ON AH FOR SILVER


578 posts in this topic

Posted

1. A far as i know item prices fluctuate based on the transaction totals thru some ime period.

2. Cash shop items will be placed for prices far beyond anything available in the game world if allowed to be auctioned.

3. Currency is transferred.

4. Multiple gold sellers and multiple transfers.

5. Gold purchasers then spend massive currency immediately, and the entire economy undergoes price increase.

How you think any of what you are saying makes sense is beyond me.

Ok, let's run through this. Player A buys costume from cash shop for 10 dollars. Player A then pays say.. an additional 5 dollars to third party gold seller. Third party gold seller then buys the costume for 10m silver (after all, player A can't set how much it sells for). Player A spent 15 dollars to get 10m silver.

Now player B buys a costume from the cash shop for 10 dollars. Player B then sells it on the AH for 10 million silver (again, can't alter the amount). Player B spent 10 dollars to get 10 million silver.

So how the flying ----- do you think gold sellers factor in this? Why would someone pay more for less? If they're already paying money to buy the costume why would they then pay a gold seller when they can just have some mook like me buy the costume and they don't have to pay anything extra?

TERA peaed at 44k players today on steam? Really?

http://steamcharts.com/app/323370#48h

It's all time peak on steam was 25k. So no, I do not think it is doing that well in the west.

TERA is very popular popular in the East. That article even mentions that he cannot know how popular the game actually is and the only thing he uses that I wouldn't consider media and marketing is google trends.

One of the biggest things that people complained in AA being p2w was the labor potions, they could be sold on the cash shop.

You won't be competitive only putting in 10 hours a week in this game. Even with selling cosmetic items, you will get farther behind, unless you are going to be dumping 100+ into the game every month in an attempt to keep up and even then you'll just fall farther and farther behind those that also no life.

How does me not liking the effects of selling cosmetic items contradict the fact that you'd still not be able to keep up? 10 hours a week will not get you far when it comes to levels at later parts of the game. Thus you will still be falling behind

I already address the extra 4 for Tera. Fact still remains that the only MMO higher than it on steam is FF14 and only by 1k players.

As for AA, way to prove my point. It wasn't the fact that cash shop items could be sold that was the issue. It was what items were being sold that was the issue. Nobody ever complained that fancy dresses were being sold, they complained that things like labor pots or enchant stones or thunderstruck trees were up for sale.

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Posted

 

As for AA, way to prove my point. It wasn't the fact that cash shop items could be sold that was the issue. It was what items were being sold that was the issue. Nobody ever complained that fancy dresses were being sold, they complained that things like labor pots or enchant stones or thunderstruck trees were up for sale.

You could get the items that were pay2win through the AH, thus negating the p2w of being available to only paying people. You could even get premium through the AH. It was still p2w, not simply because of the items, but because it straight up allowed people to get so far ahead it was pointless to pay. The same will hold true here.

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Posted

You could get the items that were pay2win through the AH, thus negating the p2w of being available to only paying people. You could even get premium through the AH. It was still p2w, not simply because of the items, but because it straight up allowed people to get so far ahead it was pointless to pay. The same will hold true here.

Only fanatics care about that level of P2W. There's a reason the majority of people complained about what was sold rather than the fact that it was sold. Because contrary to what a select few on this forum would have you believe, the majority of people don't care about things that do not affect them. And the ability to sell cosmetics on the AH does not affect them. AA was hurt because of the items they sold, not the fact that items could be sold. It was hurt mostly by botters anyways.

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Only fanatics care about that level of P2W. There's a reason the majority of people complained about what was sold rather than the fact that it was sold. Because contrary to what a select few on this forum would have you believe, the majority of people don't care about things that do not affect them. And the ability to sell cosmetics on the AH does not affect them. AA was hurt because of the items they sold, not the fact that items could be sold. It was hurt mostly by botters anyways.

I suppose it would depend on if you believed buying silver has an unbalancing effect or not. If you claim that it has little to no effect on power levels, you might want to read up on how items become more powerful in this game.

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You won't be competitive only putting in 10 hours a week in this game. Even with selling cosmetic items, you will get farther behind, unless you are going to be dumping 100+ (low balling here) into the game every month in an attempt to keep up and even then you'll just fall farther and farther behind those that also no life.

How does me not liking the effects of selling cosmetic items contradict the fact that you'd still not be able to keep up? 10 hours a week will not get you far when it comes to levels at later parts of the game. Thus you will still be falling behind

(The contradiction lies in, on one hand, claiming that selling cosmetic items will have a huge impact on the game, then claiming that selling cosmetic items won't help you keep up - i.e. have little to no effect, but that's beside the point, see below).

I think we're arguing down the wrong lines here about a bad solution to the core problem: the massive difference between +15 and +20. If that gap wasn't AS large as it is now, it wouldn't matter as much that we're only able to get up to +16/+17 maaayyyyybe. Nolifers get to +20 and still have somewhat of an advantage, but not enough to crush anyone by smashing their faces onto their keyboards for a win, and the majority of the server (Say, ranges from 16-18? Thumb-sucked number) can have relatively balanced games?

If they scale the gear properly, there's no reason to have the ability to auction cosmetic items for in-game cash either.

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I suppose it would depend on if you believed buying silver has an unbalancing effect or not. If you claim that it has little to no effect on power levels, you might want to read up on how items become more powerful in this game.

Which goes back to the tried and true "it isn't selling cash shop items that's the problem, it's the broken gear scaling for enchants 16-20" Fix the overpowered enchants and this wont be an issue.

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Which goes back to the tried and true "it isn't selling cash shop items that's the problem, it's the broken gear scaling for enchants 16-20" Fix the overpowered enchants and this wont be an issue.

It feels like both selling cash shop items for in game currency and item enchant rebalancing are very unlikely.

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It feels like both selling cash shop items for in game currency and item enchant rebalancing are very unlikely.

If enchants aren't rebalanced this is a dead game. Koreans may tolerate some nolifer running around soloing entire guilds but you can bet your pretty pale ass westerners wont. Just look at how much -----ing you get over something as trivial as selling costumes on the AH because "muh fairness!".  So for all our sakes we better hope to god they rebalance the high level enchants otherwise any form of discussion on this game is moot since the only ones who'll be playing it in the longterm is a tiny niche of nolifers.

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If enchants aren't rebalanced this is a dead game. Koreans may tolerate some nolifer running around soloing entire guilds but you can bet your pretty pale ass westerners wont. Just look at how much -----ing you get over something as trivial as selling costumes on the AH because "muh fairness!".  So for all our sakes we better hope to god they rebalance the high level enchants otherwise any form of discussion on this game is moot since the only ones who'll be playing it in the longterm is a tiny niche of nolifers.

That sounds like an accurate prediction

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Only fanatics care about that level of P2W. There's a reason the majority of people complained about what was sold rather than the fact that it was sold. Because contrary to what a select few on this forum would have you believe, the majority of people don't care about things that do not affect them. And the ability to sell cosmetics on the AH does not affect them. AA was hurt because of the items they sold, not the fact that items could be sold. It was hurt mostly by botters anyways.

Yet the majority left AA. And the majority here do not want cash shop items to be allowed on the AH. This has been true in every single fan community of the game and even this one. It is one of the most requested changes to the cash shop and has been one of the biggest things people were waiting to hear to decide to pre-order. Not saying the majority overall care, but that the majority that care enough about the game to voice their opinion do not want cash shop items on the AH.

(The contradiction lies in, on one hand, claiming that selling cosmetic items will have a huge impact on the game, then claiming that selling cosmetic items won't help you keep up - i.e. have little to no effect, but that's beside the point, see below).

I think we're arguing down the wrong lines here about a bad solution to the core problem: the massive difference between +15 and +20. If that gap wasn't AS large as it is now, it wouldn't matter as much that we're only able to get up to +16/+17 maaayyyyybe. Nolifers get to +20 and still have somewhat of an advantage, but not enough to crush anyone by smashing their faces onto their keyboards for a win, and the majority of the server (Say, ranges from 16-18? Thumb-sucked number) can have relatively balanced games?

If they scale the gear properly, there's no reason to have the ability to auction cosmetic items for in-game cash either.

It does cause a large impact on the game. Those that no life will have both levels and gear above and beyond what could normally be gotten. A whale, may be able to keep up with a no lifer or surpass it in gear if they dump enough money per month (a lot of money), except they will not have the levels. This can cause issues at lower levels creating weird and unhealthy power gaps between players that wouldn't normally be there.

As for changing the power gaps. We've argued for a change since before the NA Alpha they did and have been since. And nothing has changed. They haven't even acknowledged it as an issue. Most recently KR change the number of blackstones need to guarantee an upgrade, but all this is doing is shifting the high end up to the 20-25 range. So it looks like this power gap is here to stay for the forseeable future, so we go to change what is more likely and simpler to change.

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That sounds like an accurate prediction

Kouzan has routinely told me that BDO dropped from the top 10 to like what, bottom 100 or something? bottom 1000? This happened around the time they introduced tiers 16-20. So I don't even think it's fair to say koreans tolerate such obscene levels of power.

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Only fanatics care about that level of P2W. There's a reason the majority of people complained about what was sold rather than the fact that it was sold. Because contrary to what a select few on this forum would have you believe, the majority of people don't care about things that do not affect them. And the ability to sell cosmetics on the AH does not affect them. AA was hurt because of the items they sold, not the fact that items could be sold. It was hurt mostly by botters anyways.

No, I'm a competitive PvP player so somebody getting an edge because they dropped a couple thousand on the game affects me, as well as anybody that person decides to fight. Doesn't matter if even only dyes could be sold on the AH. People buy them and somebody profits, that's P2W.

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Yet the majority left AA. And the majority here do not want cash shop items to be allowed on the AH. This has been true in every single fan community of the game and even this one. It is one of the most requested changes to the cash shop and has been one of the biggest things people were waiting to hear to decide to pre-order. Not saying the majority overall care, but that the majority that care enough about the game to voice their opinion do not want cash shop items on the AH.

It does cause a large impact on the game. Those that no life will have both levels and gear above and beyond what could normally be gotten. A whale, may be able to keep up with a no lifer or surpass it in gear if they dump enough money per month (a lot of money), except they will not have the levels. This can cause issues at lower levels creating weird and unhealthy power gaps between players that wouldn't normally be there.

As for changing the power gaps. We've argued for a change since before the NA Alpha they did and have been since. And nothing has changed. They haven't even acknowledged it as an issue. Most recently KR change the number of blackstones need to guarantee an upgrade, but all this is doing is shifting the high end up to the 20-25 range. So it looks like this power gap is here to stay for the forseeable future, so we go to change what is more likely and simpler to change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

The majority left AA because botters tanked the economy, housing was a mandatory component for making good money yet virtually impossible to come by, P2W items on the cash shop, and a slew of other problems. The fact that cash shop items could be sold played literally no part in AA's downfall. Just because a failed MMO had this feature doesn't mean it failed because of this feature.

It does please me that someone finally acknowledges that the voices speaking up aren't the majority. It is proper to say the majority of people willing to speak up don't like this. However, just because the majority of 1% doesn't like it doesn't mean the devs shouldn't do it. If it has no negative impact on the game and benefits thousands upon thousands of players, there's no real logical reason not to include it.

No, I'm a competitive PvP player so somebody getting an edge because they dropped a couple thousand on the game affects me, as well as anybody that person decides to fight. Doesn't matter if even only dyes could be sold on the AH. People buy them and somebody profits, that's P2W.

And could you tell me that person got their gear by selling cash shop items? What if they got that gear by grinding? If you can't tell the difference then no, no it doesn't affect you.

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And could you tell me that person got their gear by selling cash shop items? What if they got that gear by grinding? If you can't tell the difference then no, no it doesn't affect you.

Doesn't matter if I can't tell, it still would affect every player in the game. 

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colt556 creating alt accounts to spam this thread lol

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Kouzan has routinely told me that BDO dropped from the top 10 to like what, bottom 100 or something? bottom 1000? This happened around the time they introduced tiers 16-20. So I don't even think it's fair to say koreans tolerate such obscene levels of power.

This because the devs encountered the sudden population decrease that all f2p mmo's experience. As players reach the point at which competitive progression is impossible without additional payment, a vast majority just up and quit. Because of the reward ad level up system in BDO is so rapid, this wall was hit rather quickly. This sudden shift in population has a secondary effect of causing remaining players to become less interested in buying vanity items since they aren't as populated. Then a massive decrease in stable microtransactions occurs and devs scramble towards P2W in order to keep the lights on.

Beng B2P in NA gives the devs a much longer window before massive depopulation from lack of incentivized content. (since players have already paid and view the game as an investment). But this only delays the inevitable. The exodus will still occur. This can be mitigated in one of two ways

1. P2W introduction to make up for short term losses, this requires a change from B2P to F2P, since people won't purchase a game with a built in paywall.

2. Actually ADD MEANINGFUL CONTENT AND REBALANCE SO THAT ALL PLAYERS FEEL COMPETITIVE WITH EACH OTHER.

GW2 did #2

Archeage did #1

Guess which strategy was actually successful.

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It does please me that someone finally acknowledges that the voices speaking up aren't the majority. It is proper to say the majority of people willing to speak up don't like this. However, just because the majority of 1% doesn't like it doesn't mean the devs shouldn't do it. If it has no negative impact on the game and benefits thousands upon thousands of players, there's no real logical reason not to include it.

 

By the logic you use, the devs shouldn't listen to any of the feedback. It does have a negative effect. Even if AA changed their ways, they'd never get back to what they could have been. Same with TERA. Perception is everything, and initial perceptions are extremely hard to shake. Add in word of mouth of the internet and how a small group can perpetuate one perception of game, it can and has most definitely had negative effects. Could they still survive? Probably, but that doesn't mean there was no negative effect.

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Doesn't matter if I can't tell, it still would affect every player in the game. 

 

How? How does it affect them if they can't tell the different?

Player A grinds up their gear, kills player X

Player B sells cash shop items and buys their gear, kills player X

In both situations player X is dead and has no way of knowing how his killer got their armor. So please, explain to me how their game is affected by being killed by player B.

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How? How does it affect them if they can't tell the different?

Player A grinds up their gear, kills player X

Player B sells cash shop items and buys their gear, kills player X

In both situations player X is dead and has no way of knowing how his killer got their armor. So please, explain to me how their game is affected by being killed by player B.

How? How does it affect them if they can't tell the different?

Player A grinds up their gear, kills player X

Player B sells cash shop items and buys their gear, kills player X

In both situations player X is dead and has no way of knowing how his killer got their armor. So please, explain to me how their game is affected by being killed by player B.

Player x would die 50% fewer times.

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This because the devs encountered the sudden population decrease that all f2p mmo's experience. As players reach the point at which competitive progression is impossible without additional payment, a vast majority just up and quit. Because of the reward ad level up system in BDO is so rapid, this wall was hit rather quickly. This sudden shift in population has a secondary effect of causing remaining players to become less interested in buying vanity items since they aren't as populated. Then a massive decrease in stable microtransactions occurs and devs scramble towards P2W in order to keep the lights on.

Beng B2P in NA gives the devs a much longer window before massive depopulation from lack of incentivized content. (since players have already paid and view the game as an investment). But this only delays the inevitable. The exodus will still occur. This can be mitigated in one of two ways

1. P2W introduction to make up for short term losses, this requires a change from B2P to F2P, since people won't purchase a game with a built in paywall.

2. Actually ADD MEANINGFUL CONTENT AND REBALANCE SO THAT ALL PLAYERS FEEL COMPETITIVE WITH EACH OTHER.

GW2 did #2

Archeage did #1

Guess which strategy was actually successful.

GW2 has the system I'm advocating, you know that right? So you basically just confirmed that selling cash shop items isn't the issue. Selling cash shop items can work just fine if the game itself works just fine. Be it archeage or GW2, tera or SWTOR, the ability to sell cash shop items doesn't affect anyone or anything. If the game itself is flawed it will fail. If the game is fun it will succeed. If BDO, on it's own, is a good game then it will flourish whether cash shop items are sold on the AH or not.

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GW2 has the system I'm advocating, you know that right? So you basically just confirmed that selling cash shop items isn't the issue. Selling cash shop items can work just fine if the game itself works just fine. Be it archeage or GW2, tera or SWTOR, the ability to sell cash shop items doesn't affect anyone or anything. If the game itself is flawed it will fail. If the game is fun it will succeed. If BDO, on it's own, is a good game then it will flourish whether cash shop items are sold on the AH or not.

That's true, but you know it isn't. BDO is heavily unbalanced and lacks a great deal of depth and meaningful incentivized pve content.(which the devs say they are working on right now...keeping my fingers crossed)  Add in any gold selling avenues and any charm it may have had would fly out the window.

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By the logic you use, the devs shouldn't listen to any of the feedback. It does have a negative effect. Even if AA changed their ways, they'd never get back to what they could have been. Same with TERA. Perception is everything, and initial perceptions are extremely hard to shake. Add in word of mouth of the internet and how a small group can perpetuate one perception of game, it can and has most definitely had negative effects. Could they still survive? Probably, but that doesn't mean there was no negative effect.

Tera's more popular now than it was at launch, just an FYI.

And frankly, no. No developer should ever listen to forumwarriors. They should have mandatory questionaires on the CBTs and listen to the people who actually play their game. It's common knowledge that gaming forums are toxic as all hell and literally never represent the community at large.

I mean shit, the plan isn't to allow cash shop items to be sold until a month after launch anyways. The devs should just put a mandatory, unskippable poll on login asking what the community thinks. That would give them the actual true feelings of the entire community, and not just a tiny fraction of it.

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How? How does it affect them if they can't tell the different?

Player A grinds up their gear, kills player X

Player B sells cash shop items and buys their gear, kills player X

In both situations player X is dead and has no way of knowing how his killer got their armor. So please, explain to me how their game is affected by being killed by player B.

It's more of a problem with whales than the average player with 20-40 dollars to drop on the game every month. Regular players can't hope to amass the same amount of currency that a whale can, especially when the whale actually makes money in game like a regular person as well. Regardless whether the player is a whale or a student working at McDanks, they're being rewarded for dropping money on the game rather than playing it. It's unfair and puts everybody on uneven playing fields, thus why it doesn't matter if you can tell or not.

What else you got? 

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Player x would die 50% fewer times.

Were it that cut and dry, sure. However once you factor in the thousands of other players you realize that the actual percentage is so small the player wouldn't ever notice.

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