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SHOULD COSTUMES BE SOLD ON AH FOR SILVER


578 posts in this topic

Posted

Your biggest mistake is thinking any form of real money to in game value automatically = pay to win. It is only pay to win if it gives you something others can't access for free or otherwise allows you to directly ruin other people's game by stomping all over them. The ability to sell cash shop items in BDO does not do any of this. So it is not P2W.

Spot on.

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What I really wanna know right now is your motivation about why you are battling on the forums so much, are you planning to whale yourself or are you so dirt cheap that you will never consider spending some extra money for cosmetic items?
btw apparently today is international hug day so :**

Technically neither, however closer to the second one. It isn't that I'm cheap, it's that I simply can't rightly afford it. It would be woefully irresponsible of my to spend my meager luxury budget on something like a fancy virtual dress. I could at least justify a monthly subscription because I then get 100% access to the game. However I would have to spend hundreds of dollars to get full access to everything in the game and I simply can't justify that on my budget. And before you start, no, some stranger on the internet making some absolutely disgustingly disrespectful remark about "hurr get a job" doesn't make my financial situation any better. And no, I most certainly should be able to have some fun in my free time.

The ability to sell cash shop items on the AH benefits multiple type of people. The whales get the silver they desire. I get access to cash shop items I can't afford. The people selling gear/enchant materials/other stuff get silver from the whales. So it benefits a lot of people and doesn't negatively impact anyone, thus I advocate it.

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Posted

agree,

agree,

agree

Tripple Agree from me ;) 

agreed

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Posted

Your biggest mistake is thinking any form of real money to in game value automatically = pay to win. It is only pay to win if it gives you something others can't access for free or otherwise allows you to directly ruin other people's game by stomping all over them. The ability to sell cash shop items in BDO does not do any of this. So it is not P2W.

It is Pay to win by default when a player's individual power level can be boosted through means other than those provided in the game.

Ask yourself these questions.

Can I become more powerful ny spending in game currency on my character?

If so, does any of that currency come from money imported into the system from the real world?

Direct gold purchase=Yes

Direct cash item purchase with stat boost=yes

Indirect acquisition by purchasing an item then converting it into in game currency = yes

If those answers any of them are yes.

IT IS PAY TO WIN

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Posted (edited)

Your biggest mistake is thinking any form of real money to in game value automatically = pay to win. It is only pay to win if it gives you something others can't access for free or otherwise allows you to directly ruin other people's game by stomping all over them. The ability to sell cash shop items in BDO does not do any of this. So it is not P2W.

So, if I pay tons of rl money and I get the best gear ingame (in like no time) that everyone can get but only a few people actually manages to get till the new content comes up, that is not P2W. I see...

Edited by Szergely
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Posted (edited)

Technically neither, however closer to the second one. It isn't that I'm cheap, it's that I simply can't rightly afford it. It would be woefully irresponsible of my to spend my meager luxury budget on something like a fancy virtual dress. I could at least justify a monthly subscription because I then get 100% access to the game. However I would have to spend hundreds of dollars to get full access to everything in the game and I simply can't justify that on my budget. And before you start, no, some stranger on the internet making some absolutely disgustingly disrespectful remark about "hurr get a job" doesn't make my financial situation any better. And no, I most certainly should be able to have some fun in my free time.

The ability to sell cash shop items on the AH benefits multiple type of people. The whales get the silver they desire. I get access to cash shop items I can't afford. The people selling gear/enchant materials/other stuff get silver from the whales. So it benefits a lot of people and doesn't negatively impact anyone, thus I advocate it.

So, basically, you would dump cash if you couldm, which already makes you suspicious. But then you can't and ultimately your word here is worthless on this matter.

And the hilariously naiveness that converting something to ingame money doesnt necessarily mean it's p2w. Well, it doesn't if they indeed restrict it, I guess.

Edited by Katsuragi

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Posted

Personally though, I think there should be a way to get the cash shop items(maybe outfits or a pet) in-game.  It would have to take a decent amount of currency(not silver) so that you can grind for it, but not so easily or quickly that it makes the cash shop less viable.  Maybe have one outfit and/or pet exchangable with that currency for a certain amount of time, and change them periodically.

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Posted

Personally though, I think there should be a way to get the cash shop items(maybe outfits or a pet) in-game.  It would have to take a decent amount of currency(not silver) so that you can grind for it, but not so easily or quickly that it makes the cash shop less viable.  Maybe have one outfit and/or pet exchangable with that currency for a certain amount of time, and change them periodically.

Now that I can see. I'm not against people who can't buy them having some sort of access to them. I am against players selling them.

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It is Pay to win by default when a player's individual power level can be boosted through means other than those provided in the game.

Ask yourself these questions.

Can I become more powerful ny spending in game currency on my character?

If so, does any of that currency come from money imported into the system from the real world?

Direct gold purchase=Yes

Direct cash item purchase with stat boost=yes

Indirect acquisition by purchasing an item then converting it into in game currency = yes

If those answers any of them are yes.

IT IS PAY TO WIN

Except that's flat out wrong. As I said it is only P2W if you can't obtain it for free and/or it directly and negatively impacts other people's games.

Example 1: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It is only obtainable in the cash shop. This is Pay to Win

Example 2: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It can also be obtained by grinding for it in game. This is not Pay to Win.

The ability to sell cosmetic cash shop items falls under example 2. Even if you are obtaining something in game, the fact that it can be freely obtained without paying for it means it is absolutely not pay to win.

Now there is a bit of a gray area where if the grind is so obscenely long as to not be realistic, it is still pay to win. If paying money can get you a +20 in a month while playing normally would take years, that is P2W. But that is unrelated to the ability to sell cash shop items and more related to the unbalanced level of grind.

So, to reiterate. Just because you gain something in game with real money doesn't automatically make it pay to win. It has never been pay to win and it never will be pay to win no matter how much fanatical zealots cry that it is.

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Technically neither, however closer to the second one. It isn't that I'm cheap, it's that I simply can't rightly afford it. It would be woefully irresponsible of my to spend my meager luxury budget on something like a fancy virtual dress. I could at least justify a monthly subscription because I then get 100% access to the game. However I would have to spend hundreds of dollars to get full access to everything in the game and I simply can't justify that on my budget. And before you start, no, some stranger on the internet making some absolutely disgustingly disrespectful remark about "hurr get a job" doesn't make my financial situation any better. And no, I most certainly should be able to have some fun in my free time.

The ability to sell cash shop items on the AH benefits multiple type of people. The whales get the silver they desire. I get access to cash shop items I can't afford. The people selling gear/enchant materials/other stuff get silver from the whales. So it benefits a lot of people and doesn't negatively impact anyone, thus I advocate it.

Okay but where is my free hug greenpeace?

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Posted (edited)

Now that I can see. I'm not against people who can't buy them having some sort of access to them. I am against players selling them.

I would be fine with a method of obtaining cash shop items that doesn't involve someone else buying them and selling them to me. After all my only concern is getting total access to the game I paid for. But every method proposed doesn't generate money for the devs so it's highly unlikely they'd go for it.

Okay but where is my free hug greenpeace?

Hugs are pay to win :(

Edited by Colt556

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Okay but where is my free hug greenpeace?

(づ ̄ ³ ̄)づ

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Except that's flat out wrong. As I said it is only P2W if you can't obtain it for free and/or it directly and negatively impacts other people's games.

Example 1: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It is only obtainable in the cash shop. This is Pay to Win

Example 2: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It can also be obtained by grinding for it in game. This is not Pay to Win.

The ability to sell cosmetic cash shop items falls under example 2. Even if you are obtaining something in game, the fact that it can be freely obtained without paying for it means it is absolutely not pay to win.

Now there is a bit of a gray area where if the grind is so obscenely long as to not be realistic, it is still pay to win. If paying money can get you a +20 in a month while playing normally would take years, that is P2W. But that is unrelated to the ability to sell cash shop items and more related to the unbalanced level of grind.

So, to reiterate. Just because you gain something in game with real money doesn't automatically make it pay to win. It has never been pay to win and it never will be pay to win no matter how much fanatical zealots cry that it is.

So, by that logic, AA is not pay 2 win. Pretty sure you called AA pay 2 win.

Yes the grind in this game can be that long. Seriously the game has been out for over a year +20 is still a large rarity.

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Hello community. As we are all aware the devs in the PM Dairy 2.2 stated "if they allow cash shop items to be sold on the marketplace" which for some leaves the notion that they will implement a window for pay2win players to gain an unfair advantage. I have been defending why it shouldn't be allowed on the PM Dairy but some users such as @Colt556 are adamant that it will not break the game for x amount of reasons.

So should costumes be allowed to be bought with real life money and sold for ingame money? Please give a Yes/No answer and state the reason why you picked that.

I would like to get you some arguments raised in the PM Dairy between myself and @Colt556 as it will help show both sides to the argument.

@Colt556 arguments are as followed, with my counter arguments.

These are just some of the arguments from the PM diary 2.2 between myself and @Colt556. There are more there if you want to read. I wanted Colt to make this thread as he firmly believes he is correct. I asked him to make a thread so he can see what the majority actually wants and not what he wants. He has shown he has little knowledge of the game and I suggested it would do him some good talking to the majority and hearing their opinions.

So lastly, Should costumes be purchasable with real money and sold for silver? Silver which can be used by Whales to upgrade their gear. Yes/No and why?

  1. Its not pay2win if the players put materials there for whales to buy as it was earned by the player --- Regardless of where the materials come from, you are giving the whale millions/billions of silver to purchase all the materials on the marketplace, allowing him 2 upgrade his gear and gain a massive advantage on stats.
    And you would gain an item you would otherwise not have been able to get without paying real money, indirectly supporting the devs as well for further game development.
  2. Cash shop worked in other MMOs so it should work here --- I stated because elements worked in other MMOs does not at all mean it'll work here as the cash shop on Korea has already proven. Also, megaserver is a prime example as it works wonders in some MMOs, however it completely destroyed this one.
    The shop in GW2 works just fine, though there you can buy gems (pearls) for real money and trade them. Same principle and it hasn't broken the game there (though this also depends on changing the way enchanting works in BDO).
  3. It doesn't matter if I get killed by someone who pay2win or a no-lifer as they both will have better gear than me --- I stated the fact one has earned his game through time and effort playing the actual game, the other has spent seconds/minutes using real life money to gain massive amounts of silver resulting in a massive advantage.
    That would mean that anyone with a job and social life - arguably the group that will be able to pay for things over the long term to keep the game online - will never be able to compete. On average, the 'no-lifer' group spends the least amount of money on the game.
  4. It doesn't matter if someone pays their way to the best gear as others will eventually catch up --- First I asked him to show me the non-Koreans who are +20 gear but he refused. Secondly, he stated allowing players such power is not a problem as it will not effect him. I mentioned it will effect many others at end-game.
    Non-Koreans aren't playing BDO KR all that much to begin with, so this is a misleading argument. Most of them are either playing BDO RU now or waiting for EUNA, playing KR only 'casually'. Koreans (obviously) vastly outnumber non-Koreans in the Korean version, making the chances you know a non-Korean with maxed gear quite slim.
  5. It isn't pay2win as someone earned their money too purchase the costumes --- Again I mention it isn't the purchaser who is paying2win its the seller who convers his real money into massive amounts of silver.
    That doesn't counter the argument, you only state a situation. Whatever the case, the purchaser chooses to buy the costume off the marketplace with his silver and is an integral part of the equation - This isn't a one way street.
  6. Korean launched the game with cash shop resulting in the whole playerbase knowing what was coming --- I asked for a quote to back this up, I am yet to receive that quote. I stated that the cash shop was implement after launch and a lot of the player base was skeptical about it. I also showed in that pre cash shop the game was top 10 in the Korean MMO charts, after the implantation of the cash shop, it plummeted down too the bottom 100s.
    I distinctly remember the cash shop being there since open beta. How else would you propose to support an F2P game? What sense would it make to launch an F2P title without any way to even cover the costs? Also, i've seen it mentioned more than once on the forum - The event after which the drop happend seems to be the implementation of the megaserver.
  7. Cash shop items that can be turned in for ingame currency didn't upset other games GvG based --- I showed him video proof of how devastating gear can be in BDO once Valencia comes. He laughed this off and said it was due to levels. I also stated how guilds can 1 shot our English players because they pay2win, destroying the endgame.
    Those +20 items have been crafted by someone, somewhere. They cannot be bought directly - That means another player spent his gaming time getting an item to +20, only to then sell it. That said, the enchanting power gains are the problem here, not the fact you can sell items in KR. If +15 to +20 wasn't such a huge power jump this would be a complete non-issue.
  8. Gear for a whale doesn't magically appear --- Gear can be obtained via silver or one can buy all the materials required to upgrade and craft his gear.
    EVERYTHING in the game comes from players. It's weird how you don't seem to understand this. All materials are gathered by players and put on the marketplace. All the blackstones come from players who have farmed mobs or crafted them. Etcetera. Nothing in the game appears magically without player input.
  9. You're a no-life so you will have an unfair advantage that's is considered p2w itself --- Despite me never mentioning the amount of time I have to play, I reiterated the fact that players who put time and effort into this game should and shall get rewarded for their commitment.
    See point 3, this is a repeat.
  10. You wont be able to tell the difference between a pay2win or players who grinded for gear, thus gameplay is unchanged --- Again, if players are getting one shot you can tell the difference.
    You seem to be forgetting that people who farmed for their +20 gear will have a significant advantage over people who outright bought it. Nothing can replace experience of actually playing the game and knowing how it works. All gear being equal at such levels, random button mashing does not get you the win.
  11. I can't afford the costumes but whales can do support the devs for me --- This would cause disruption between all players as the community doesn't like pay2win systems, plus we've seen the long term negative effectives of this system on KR.
    Then propose a system where the devs get enough money to cover the costs of running and developing the game. Take a calculator and crunch the numbers - Don't forget about taxes, employer salary costs, rents, hardware, and everything. It's nowhere near as cheap as you might think. If the game was only a single €30,- purchase in EUNA for example, with no cash shop, it would take roughly 200,000 NEW accounts a year to cover the (current estimated) costs just for Daum EU. BDO has nowhere near the mass market appeal necessary to move such numbers. The cash shop is nice, but if you can't sell items the appeal will be lessened for a lot of players (see point 3), but you can count on Daum EU taking a close look at sales.
  12. It isn't turning real money in to silver that's the problem, its the gear - To somewhat we agreed, he denied gear was broken after I showed him video evidence. It took a statement from a third party who is in a GvG guild, confirming gear is broken, for him to believe. Nevertheless, I reminded him that this game will always have a heavy gear progression system. hopefully that isn't broken as it is now with +15 to +20. I told him gaining silver would still cause whales to have an unfair big advantage, maybe one that doesn't one shot people, but still an advantage. My example was as followed, a +15 will still have a big advantage of the +10 player, despite the gear scaling from +5 to +15 being nothing like +15 to +20.
    +15 gear is attainable even for a somewhat 'casual' player. The only real problem lies in +16 to +20, which needs a big power decrease. Do remember, that +20 gear needs to be crafted by someone, or at least the materials need to be farmed - Every +20 item a whale buys or makes is an item another player could have made or used, but chose not to either make or sell. That said, if the enchanting up to +20 would get a nerf, the problem would be solved nearly instantly - As i said earlier, there's no substitute for actual playing experience. A whale can buy his +20 gear, but if he has no clue how to perform combos or how to move around properly, he loses anyway.
  13. You cant pay2win because gear is RNG --- Each time you fail once enchant you gain 1 failstack, which increase your % of successfully enchanting your gear next time. Allowing a player a vast amount of silver will eventually make RNG irrelevant as he will of gained enough failstacks to successful enchant.
    Again, the items he needs are farmed by other players, who chose not to do their own enchanting. This is also a finite resource - Blackstones won't be falling out of the sky. Other players will actually have to provide them, and if the supply runs out, that's it for the whale. Not to mention that there won't be just one whale, so the market will correct itself automatically.

 

I really get your concerns, but they are mostly based on misconceptions of how the ingame economy actually works. The real problem - and the only real obstacle - is the enchanting power gain from +15 to +20. If this was reduced significantly (so a +20 geared player would be roughly about 10% better 'statted' than a +15 geared player at max) this issue would be solved completely.

A 10% difference isn't nearly enough to make up for the complete lack in actual skill of the whale, while it's still enough so that the hardcore players will pursue it. 

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Except that's flat out wrong. As I said it is only P2W if you can't obtain it for free and/or it directly and negatively impacts other people's games.

Example 1: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It is only obtainable in the cash shop. This is Pay to Win

Example 2: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It can also be obtained by grinding for it in game. This is not Pay to Win.

The ability to sell cosmetic cash shop items falls under example 2. Even if you are obtaining something in game, the fact that it can be freely obtained without paying for it means it is absolutely not pay to win.

Now there is a bit of a gray area where if the grind is so obscenely long as to not be realistic, it is still pay to win. If paying money can get you a +20 in a month while playing normally would take years, that is P2W. But that is unrelated to the ability to sell cash shop items and more related to the unbalanced level of grind.

So, to reiterate. Just because you gain something in game with real money doesn't automatically make it pay to win. It has never been pay to win and it never will be pay to win no matter how much fanatical zealots cry that it is.

That's false dichotomy man. There is an opton 3.

Example 1: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It is only obtainable in the cash shop. This is Pay to Win maximum cheese factor 10

Example 2: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It can also be obtained by grinding for it in game. This is Pay to Win slightly irritating cheese

Example 3: Super Gun 9000 It can only be obtained by grinding for it in game  This is not Pay to Win.

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Posted (edited)

How about adding a very very low chance (0.001 or so) for costumes to drop from regular monsters, a bit higher (0.01) from bosses and even higher (1?) from world bosses? These costumes would look the same as costumes in cash shop but would be tradable. Also we could get tradable costumes from events. Of course numbers are exemplary and regular monsters don't have to drop costumes.

Edited by Hayaku

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So, by that logic, AA is not pay 2 win. Pretty sure you called AA pay 2 win.

Yes the grind in this game can be that long. Seriously the game has been out for over a year +20 is still a large rarity.

The act of selling cash shop items is not pay to win. WHAT those items are can be pay to win. For example if you can buy an item with real money that increases your success rate for enchanting, that's a P2W item because it can't be obtained in game by other players. Sure some people might put it up for sale but the people with first, and unrestricted access to the item are those who pay for it so it gives them an unfair advantage over those who didn't pay.

This isn't the case for cosmetics. It doesn't give them an unfair advantage. They're simply selling an item. Someone who spends 60 hours a week grinding and selling items on the AH can then turn around and buy blackstones or enchanted gear same way the whale can. The whale doesn't get any unfair advantage, people can obtain everything the whale has simply through in game effort. So someone selling costumes doesn't give them an unfair advantage over everyone else, it doesn't give them special assets, it doesn't affect other people's games, it has virtually no impact on the game at large. Thus it is not pay to win.

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Except that's flat out wrong. As I said it is only P2W if you can't obtain it for free and/or it directly and negatively impacts other people's games.

Example 1: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It is only obtainable in the cash shop. This is Pay to Win

Example 2: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It can also be obtained by grinding for it in game. This is not Pay to Win.

The ability to sell cosmetic cash shop items falls under example 2. Even if you are obtaining something in game, the fact that it can be freely obtained without paying for it means it is absolutely not pay to win.

Now there is a bit of a gray area where if the grind is so obscenely long as to not be realistic, it is still pay to win. If paying money can get you a +20 in a month while playing normally would take years, that is P2W. But that is unrelated to the ability to sell cash shop items and more related to the unbalanced level of grind.

So, to reiterate. Just because you gain something in game with real money doesn't automatically make it pay to win. It has never been pay to win and it never will be pay to win no matter how much fanatical zealots cry that it is.

Disagree completely. Cash shop items should never have stats, whether they can be obtained via ingame means or not. This is because they require no player interaction and no economy transactions - This can never be balanced. Buying a +20 weapon directly from the cash shop is a fundamentally different concept than buying it from the marketplace with silver earn from selling a cash shop costume.

 

Never forget the necessity for player interaction to keep the cash shop in check.

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That's false dichotomy man. There is an opton 3.

Example 1: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It is only obtainable in the cash shop. This is Pay to Win maximum cheese factor 10

Example 2: Super Gun 9000 is for sale in the cash shop, it shoots through walls and has auto-aim. It can also be obtained by grinding for it in game. This is Pay to Win slightly irritating cheese

Example 3: Super Gun 9000 It can only be obtained by grinding for it in game  This is not Pay to Win.

Example 2 and 3 are both not pay to win. As I said, only those with absolutely fanatical definitions of pay to win would deem it as such. It has no tangible impact on anyone else in the game, you are literally getting upset at the IDEA of it happening. A mere thought is what is upsetting you. If the only hardship you face is self-imposed thoughts, it is not pay to win.

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I would be fine with a method of obtaining cash shop items that doesn't involve someone else buying them and selling them to me. After all my only concern is getting total access to the game I paid for. But every method proposed doesn't generate money for the devs so it's highly unlikely they'd go for it.

I'm sure they can implement a method that can meet both criteria IF they wanted to.  For example, you can limit people to be able to only buy one outfit for x amount of time.  If they wanted to buy another one, they would have to buy it on the cash shop.  Maybe include pets in that limit, so either buy a pet or costume, so you would either have to wait to buy a pet/costume, or buy it from the cash shop.  It is more likely that when someone gets something for free, they will have less resistance towards buying something.

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Disagree completely. Cash shop items should never have stats, whether they can be obtained via ingame means or not. This is because they require no player interaction and no economy transactions - This can never be balanced. Buying a +20 weapon directly from the cash shop is a fundamentally different concept than buying it from the marketplace with silver earn from selling a cash shop costume.

 

Never forget the necessity for player interaction to keep the cash shop in check.

This is why that example isn't used in MMORPGs. For example, planetside 2 uses that model. You can just straight up buy a gun. It's fine because there is no economy anyways. There is no trading. You can obtain the same gun just by playing normally. It's classed as 'pay to skip grind' which is fine.

It's a bit different in MMORPGs for the reasons you listed, which is why MMOs almost never just straight up sell gear or power. They do it indirectly. Someone buying gear in the cash shop is broken. Someone buying a costume, then trading that costume to someone else for currency, then trading that currency to someone else for gear is perfectly acceptable. The examples I gave were more towards FPS games as that is where the whole P2W term originated.

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Example 2 and 3 are both not pay to win. As I said, only those with absolutely fanatical definitions of pay to win would deem it as such. It has no tangible impact on anyone else in the game, you are literally getting upset at the IDEA of it happening. A mere thought is what is upsetting you. If the only hardship you face is self-imposed thoughts, it is not pay to win.

No, I just use the standard accepted definition of what pay to win is. The fact that you need to use long convoluted streams of faulty logic shows you know as well. You just want P2W, but don't think anyone else is smart or knowledgeable enough to know the commonly understood definition.

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This is why that example isn't used in MMORPGs. For example, planetside 2 uses that model. You can just straight up buy a gun. It's fine because there is no economy anyways. There is no trading. You can obtain the same gun just by playing normally. It's classed as 'pay to skip grind' which is fine.

It's a bit different in MMORPGs for the reasons you listed, which is why MMOs almost never just straight up sell gear or power. They do it indirectly. Someone buying gear in the cash shop is broken. Someone buying a costume, then trading that costume to someone else for currency, then trading that currency to someone else for gear is perfectly acceptable. The examples I gave were more towards FPS games as that is where the whole P2W term originated.

Most MMOs don't even allow you to indirectly buy gear as most MMOs have the good gear bound to players or accounts.

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Posted (edited)

Example 2 and 3 are both not pay to win. As I said, only those with absolutely fanatical definitions of pay to win would deem it as such. It has no tangible impact on anyone else in the game, you are literally getting upset at the IDEA of it happening. A mere thought is what is upsetting you. If the only hardship you face is self-imposed thoughts, it is not pay to win.

Pay to Win is not only being able to obtain something that is not obtainable through playing that makes you stronger. Imagine an item that has drop rate of 0.01% from WORLD BOSS. It would drop like once or twice a year PER SERVER but hey, you can buy it from cash shop and have it instantly.

Edited by Hayaku

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Someone buying a costume, then trading that costume to someone else for currency, then trading that currency to someone else for gear is perfectly acceptable. The examples I gave were more towards FPS games as that is where the whole P2W term originated.

Yeah no, disagree 100%. Goodluck mr. whale.

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