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SHOULD COSTUMES BE SOLD ON AH FOR SILVER


578 posts in this topic

Posted

Yeah I believe they should have more on the cash shop available, there are dyes but I would but just fine with an optional subscription/premium account option to support the game. Something like unique cosmetics and titles for supporters, a healthy way to support the game that doesn't destabilize it.    

 

I agree. You can see that in other regions there is a pearls-silver transfer mechanism, because the actual cosmetics in the cash shop are not that many.

At launch there will be enough cosmetics for players, but after few months they will need to add many more, or  they will be forced to add pearls-silver trasnfer like in other regions.

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Posted

Yeah I believe they should have more on the cash shop available, there are dyes but I would but just fine with an optional subscription/premium account option to support the game.

I would be more than happy to subscribe. As long as subscribers only gain unique items that are powerless such as costumes , titles as you said. :)

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Posted

There will always be a portion of the community that wants the option to purchase silver via any means. When a game allows players to purchase any item for real world currency and then sell it for in game currency it is no different from directly purchasing in game currency. 

There are always going to be players that refuse to spend money on a game. Even though BDO is B2P there will be many players that will not make purchases after the initial cost. Those players want to have access to the cash shop items, but they want someone else to pony up the real world money. I understand that some people may not be in a position to pay for in game items, but that comes across to me as more of a real world issue than an in game issue. If a $10 or $20 purchase presents a person with undue hardship they may be better served by focusing on real life issues than virtual cosmetic items. 

At this point the items that grant any sort of advantage (regardless of the strength of the argument) are available in the mileage shop except for the worker expansion ticket. Without internal metrics we can only speculate how any specific item from the cash shop could impact game play/fairness. It is always in a company's best interest to provide as fair an experience as possible. Balancing the need for fair play with the need to keep operational costs covered while turning a profit is what drives companies to open the p2w flood gates.

Those of us that do not want to see cash shop items on the AH after the launch window need to be more than vocal. We need to support the game through future purchases. We need to provide Daum with the means to operate without feeling that they would benefit more from allowing P2W creep. Additionally, we need to press Daum to keep players informed on the health of the game.

No company is going to say "we're in trouble" unless the situation is catastrophic and they are forced to do so as part of a solution to save a failing investment. It is up to the community to actively support BDO through future purchases and inform Daum of our own opinions on issues that affect their governance of the game.  

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Posted

 

So why don't we create a different system to allow players unwilling to support the developers by buying cosmetics another way to attain them? You make it sound as if it's wrong to bar cosmetics from players, it isn't, it's a luxury.

They could make a quest-chain or have the players pay ingame silver for discounts on a costumes of their choice.

Instead of putting into place something that ruins the player experience for many players which in the long run will cause DAUM to lose more money than they would have earned just from keeping cosmetics only in the cash shop. 

Most players and communities are just fine with cosmetics being only being on the cash shop.

Rift, TESO, FFXIV players were just fine with pets, costumes, convenience. It was only when items that directly or indirectly gave another player substantial advantage in the game like in Runes of Magic's case, is where the playerbase declined dramatically.

You should look up Runes of Magic and it's history. It's pretty much just like BDO on KR but without channels to switch to to avoid PVP. Cash shop costumes could be sold there as well, progressions system based on chance, it's all very similar. It had millions of players at launch, millions, there your money was how powerful you wanted to be.

The playerbase just continued to decline until there were a few whales that just bought everything for their  F2P guildies so that they wouldn't quit, is that the fate you want Black Desert to have? 

 

It can possibly in 3 years time a +20 zaka weapon takes an insane amount of time and failstacks. Failstacks which you can actually get off the KR cash shop. I'm not sure if you've played black desert to any depth but that player has certainly spent a fair share of money in the game to progress at that speed. It's nearly impossible otherwise.  

___

Because that nolifer gradually earned that advantage and that progression is nowhere near as fast as selling items on cash shops.

Those aren't even the players you should worry about, you should be worried about the nolifers that are willing to put in the money to further their advantage. Now a small advantage turns into an immense one that snowballs out of control. Then you will never be able to catch up or even compete unless you spend x amount of money and grind x amount of hours.  

 

You lost me, yes the game is buy to play. You pay once and you own the game. 

Pay 2 win as in systems that are typically found in free to play games to make up for the lack of box price. Things like selling upgrade stones on cash shop, or allowing money to convert into a substantial ingame advantage.

  

Adding this system wouldn't ruin anyone's game. They would ruin their own game by carrying more about what other people do than simply enjoying themselves. Also it's completely groundless to try and claim it'd lose them money in the long run. Plenty of MMOs have this system and literally not even one of them has ever suffered because of it. The only times an MMO suffers from allowing cash shop items to be sold is if the cash shop items themselves are P2W. If it's purely cosmetics it does nothing but benefit the game.

As for your next point about Rift, FF14 etc. Most MMOs include decent looking gear in the base game. In fact I have literally never played an MMO like BDO where all the gear is basically the same and looks like level 1 starter gear. That's the issue here. In those MMOs you don't HAVE to buy cosmetics to look decent. Your quest gear, or dungeon gear or raid gear can look decent on it's own. That's why they're fine with cosmetics being cash shop only, because they aren't mandatory. Costumes are MANDATORY in BDO if you want to look decent. And that's the problem. Unlike all the games you mentioned, BDO does not have any free method of making your character look good.

As for your 3 years comment, such items aren't on the cash shop so whales are limited by what's available in game. They can't just throw down money and instantly be at +20. Furthermore being at +20 shouldn't be THAT big of a deal. That goes right back to the gear scaling issue. If being +20 wasn't literal godmode this wouldn't be an issue, just as it isn't an issue in any other MMO with this system.

Your average player will never catch up to a nolifer regardless. This, as usual, has nothing to do with the selling of cash shop items. Some people will always be at the front, whether they sold costumes or simply grinded all day everyday. There will always be those who reach the top first. And given all the hype on how long it takes to hit +20 99% of players in BDO will never reach the top. So it simply does not matter how that 1% did it, whether they sold costumes or grinded, it doesn't matter. The game remains the same for the 99% that didn't get there.

There's always two key issues with this system that people bring up.

1: It's unfair: This is subjective and purely based on emotion and is ultimately irrelevant as 90% of the playerbase simply doesn't care because it doesn't affect them one way or the other. Hence why these topics get less than 1% of the playerbase responding to them.

2: OP +20: The other main issue with selling cash shop items is people's fear of whales rushing to +20 and lording over everyone else. This is an issue with the horrible power scaling. If the enchants 16-20 were actually balanced, this would be a non-issue. If a +20 wasn't literally one-shotting a +15 then it wouldn't matter if he rushed to +20, same way it doesn't matter if a nolifer rushed to +20.

The bottom line is that it isn't selling cash shop items that is the problem, it's the broken power curve on high tier enchants.

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Posted (edited)

Adding this system wouldn't ruin anyone's game. They would ruin their own game by carrying more about what other people do than simply enjoying themselves. Also it's completely groundless to try and claim it'd lose them money in the long run. Plenty of MMOs have this system and literally not even one of them has ever suffered because of it. The only times an MMO suffers from allowing cash shop items to be sold is if the cash shop items themselves are P2W. If it's purely cosmetics it does nothing but benefit the game.

 Wouldn't harm all the guilds that don't pay 2 win? When they got to siege and get loose too players who are whales? Also its not "purely" as you gain silver for selling a costume. Again, its already proven it doesn't benefit the game on Korean version. As I've told  you many times, which you keep ignoring, the game before cash shop was top 10 mmos played in the Korean charts, its now near the bottom 100s. So how is that a benefit?

As for your 3 years comment, such items aren't on the cash shop so whales are limited by what's available in game. They can't just throw down money and instantly be at +20. Furthermore being at +20 shouldn't be THAT big of a deal. That goes right back to the gear scaling issue. If being +20 wasn't literal godmode this wouldn't be an issue, just as it isn't an issue in any other MMO with this system.

 

Godmode  which you claimed wasn't true but anyway. Whales can indeed buy items off the cash shop that increases their chance of a successful enchant. They can throw money down the drain and will if there is a reason for them to do it and you are allowing them to have that reason. Again, they can have millions of silver and each time they fail they gain a failstack, failstacks increase % of successfully enchant. So eventually they will GUARANTEE their gear to successfully enchant.

 

Your average player will never catch up to a nolifer regardless. This, as usual, has nothing to do with the selling of cash shop items. Some people will always be at the front, whether they sold costumes or simply grinded all day everyday. There will always be those who reach the top first. And given all the hype on how long it takes to hit +20 99% of players in BDO will never reach the top. So it simply does not matter how that 1% did it, whether they sold costumes or grinded, it doesn't matter. The game remains the same for the 99% that didn't get there.

 

Again, they wouldn't catch up if there is a no cap on gear. There currently is a +20 cap on Korea.. so in time a average player will catch up. 

It doesn't matter to you. It matter too many, many other players ( as displayed in this thread )

 

Edited by Kouzan
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Posted (edited)

Gear scaling is a massive issue its true. Fixing the gear scale wont prevent whales to have an incentive to pay2win. A +20 will still be more power than + 15 even after they nerf the scale.


Let me "quote"/paraphrase you once again:

Even if selling costumes on AH will bring you only 1 silver per costume it's still pay2win. A 50 silver will still be more than 30 silver that you'll get from killing mob.

 

Edited by Reyer

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Posted

Plenty of MMOs have this system and literally not even one of them has ever suffered because of it. The only times an MMO suffers from allowing cash shop items to be sold is if the cash shop items themselves are P2W. If it's purely cosmetics it does nothing but benefit the game.

 

You must have a limited knowledge of games that have suffered from P2W issues due to allowing players to purchase in game currency directly, or once-removed which is what selling CS items on the AH is.

The only games where this works is ones with wild economic inflation, games where only PvE is affected by the CS items on the AH (GW2), and niche games with small dedicated communities (Age of Wushu). 

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Posted

Let me quote you once again:

 

First quote its correct, I have no idea what I'm saying in the second quote, which page is it from?

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Posted (edited)

 

    Again, they wouldn't catch up if there is a no cap on gear. There currently is a +20 cap on Korea.. so in time a average player will catch up. 

It doesn't matter to you. It matter too many, many other players ( as displayed in this thread )

 

It's important to remember that new sets of gear get introduced too. So caps don't matter if the P2W players are always able to cap first. Holding an advantage allows P2W players to keep other players down too in a game where open PK can control farming spots.

EDIT: I will also be spending in the cash shop. I just don't feel the need to use cash to purchase power. 

Edited by Dogehn

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Posted

It's important to remember that new sets of gear get introduced too. So caps don't matter if the P2W players are always able to cap first. Holding an advantage allows P2W players to keep other players down too in a game where open PK can control farming spots.

This is true. +1

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Posted (edited)

The bottom line is that it isn't selling cash shop items that is the problem, it's the broken power curve on high tier enchants.

This I can agree with because this is where the  'win' or the power comes from spending so much money.

If it was fixed then cosmetics on AH wouldn't be a problem, players would have a chance and eventually reach competitive levels of pvp without being required to pay an unreasonable amount of money. Since the majority of endgame content hinges on the PVP experience.  

They could fix the power disparity and introduce other ways for players to support the game like some of the examples I mentioned before to increase revenue and allow limited costumes sold on AH. Win/win for everyone.  

Edited by Circe
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Posted

Let me quote/paraphraze you once again:

Even if selling costumes on AH will bring you only 1 silver per costume it's still pay2win. A 50 silver will still be more than 30 silver that you'll get from killing mob.

It appears you are unfamiliar with the concept of reduction to the absurd. (RE: Reductio ad absurdum / argumentum ad absurdum

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Posted

This I can agree with because this is where the  'win' or the power comes from spending so much money.

If it was fixed then cosmetics on AH wouldn't be a problem, players would have a chance and eventually reach competitive levels of pvp without being required to pay an unreasonable amount of money. Since the majority of endgame content hinges on PVP.  

There no level of P2W I can stand behind. Even if the disparaging differences in the upper +'s on gear were more balanced I still don't see it as justification to allow players the ability to purchase in game currency. Cash shop items on the AH are the equivalent of publisher sponsored RMT. 

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Posted

@Colt556 is paid by Ncsoft to try to ruin the game or just retarded troll that have nothing better than spamming about costumes being sellable and he wont even play the game at all. If he spend half the time arguing here on the forum actually working, he will be able to buy all the costumes he want.

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Posted (edited)

It appears you are unfamiliar with the concept of reduction to the absurd. (RE: Reductio ad absurdum / argumentum ad absurdum

Nah. It's just to illustrate the problem that some people have.

They say "Even if you need to spend $500 8 times in a row, once per month, to afford only ONE enchanted enough gear, it's still p2w."

"Even if selling cash item is not changing the gameplay/has neglible impact on whole community, it's still p2w, no matter how much you're getting on it"

"Even if problem of the game lies somewhere else, it's still p2w to sell cash shop items"

"Even if cash shop items with stats gains advantage for people that bought them while the rest of players cannot afford them gets nothing, it's not p2w. Why better stats would be p2w? Why having advantage that others won't get without PAYING would be p2w? It's selling them on market p2w! Not the owning them!"

"Even if items that i've bought on market allows me to exceed my abilities in farming, it's still p2w to sell them, not just having them."

Edited by Reyer

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Posted

@Colt556 is paid by Ncsoft to try to ruin the game or just retarded troll that have nothing better than spamming about costumes being sellable and he wont even play the game at all. If he spend half the time arguing here on the forum actually working, he will be able to buy all the costumes he want.

No, he's right. It is the insanely broken power curve on the enchants past +15. If this gets fixed, then the costumes for silvers become much much less desirable. But, I'm not sure what PA/Daum is thinking perhaps this is what they want, for extra cash. Again, I strongly recommend they just sell expansions, which I'm willing to spring 30 bucks or more each.

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Posted

@Colt556 is paid by Ncsoft to try to ruin the game or just retarded troll that have nothing better than spamming about costumes being sellable and he wont even play the game at all. If he spend half the time arguing here on the forum actually working, he will be able to buy all the costumes he want.

He is either a whale wanting to leverage an advantage, a troll, or someone that doesn't want to financially support the game, but expects to get everything.

I really want to link a McDonald's job application for him, but that may be too much. lol

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Posted

If a person is too cheap to buy the costume they want from Pearl Abyss/Daum EU, they do not deserve it :P Go get a job, or if you have one, simply work 1-2 hours of overtime to get your costume and support the developer that has spent time to make you this beautiful game (mind you, they are only selling the game for $30!!!!!).

It's better to support a developer than a goldseller/sweatshop that only drags down the game economy.

This^

Thank god there are people like you.

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Posted

Nah. It's just to illustrate the problem that some people has.

They say "Even if you need to spend $500 8 months in a row to afford the ONE enchanted enough gear, it's still p2w."

"Even if selling cash item is not changing the gameplay/has neglible impact on whole community, it's still p2w, no matter how much you're getting on it"

"Even if problem of the game lies somewhere else, it's still p2w to sell cash shop items"

"Even if cash shop items with stats gains advantage for people that bought them while the rest of players cannot afford them gets nothing, it's not p2w. Why better stats would be p2w? It's selling them on market p2w! Not the owning them!"

I does not illustrate any of the points you have listed. The last point you made is an entirely different conversation about p2w that directly involves the CS items and not the reselling of inert items. However, you post does illustrate your lack of contextual awareness on the topic of Cash Shop/AH selling as P2W. So at least you illustrated something.

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Posted (edited)

I does not illustrate any of the points you have listed. The last point you made is an entirely different conversation about p2w that directly involves the CS items and not the reselling of inert items. However, you post does illustrate your lack of contextual awareness on the topic of Cash Shop/AH selling as P2W. So at least you illustrated something.

Of course i'm not aware of the problem. Why would i be aware of it if i have only read about 75 pages of discussion about it?

Edited by Reyer

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Posted

Of course you should be able to sell them.  It's nobodies fault but your own for not having the biggest wallet. 

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Posted

No, he's right. It is the insanely broken power curve on the enchants past +15. If this gets fixed, then the costumes for silvers become much much less desirable. But, I'm not sure what PA/Daum is thinking perhaps this is what they want, for extra cash. Again, I strongly recommend they just sell expansions, which I'm willing to spring 30 bucks or more each.

Okay so lets say they fix the broken power scale from +15 to +20. It will still take months, years for some, to reach +20. Again, whales can get there effortlessly by buying multiple costumes and selling them ingame for silver. Is that fair to you? And if you want to back the developers, just buy costumes, I'm planning to buy every costume to help the development of the game.

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Posted

OP
your tears are delicious
but you are still wasting your time
the cash-shop is bound
please swallow your sadness and move on
for everyone health.

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Posted

 Wouldn't harm all the guilds that don't pay 2 win? When they got to siege and get loose too players who are whales? Also its not "purely" as you gain silver for selling a costume. Again, its already proven it doesn't benefit the game on Korean version. As I've told  you many times, which you keep ignoring, the game before cash shop was top 10 mmos played in the Korean charts, its now near the bottom 100s. So how is that a benefit?

You KR argument has been invalid since you stated it, their cash shop is purely p2w. Have you even read the cash shop items being released here compared to there? It is a enormous difference. Find a new argument please.

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Posted

People that think converting cash shop items to silver isn't pay to win are brain dead. 

Of course you should be able to sell them.  It's nobodies fault but your own for not having the biggest wallet. 

Huh?

OP
your tears are delicious
but you are still wasting your time
the cash-shop is bound
please swallow your sadness and move on
for everyone health.

You mistake me for someone wanting to make cash shop items unbound. I want it to stay that way that's why I made this thread as people are arguing on PM Diary 2.2 to allow costumes to be sellable and unbound.

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