• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

Rethinking the Dye System?

During CBT1 the Dye System Was   165 votes

  1. 1. During CBT1 the Dye System Was

    • Enjoyable. Don't Change it.
      14
    • Awful. I don't like opening boxes of dye for random colors. I have ideas on how it should change. (Post)
      39
    • Average and I have ideas on how to improve it. (Post)
      10
    • I didn't participate in CBT1
      21
  2. 2. It would be more enjoyable if

    • It stays as it is now
      6
    • Dyes are permanent unlocks
      63
    • Dyes are not randomized
      33
    • Dye prices suit the fact that it's RNG
      29
    • Dye was added to the Mileage Shop.
      34

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

40 posts in this topic

Posted

I agree mMaking them craftable would be the best solution for the players, but it's pretty obvious as to why they wouldn't want to do that (source of ongoing income).  To say it breaks immersion to make them permanently unlockable is a bit weird, I mean it may be true for you, but for a vast majority of players it won't and the current system is awful.

I think it might be true that many people don't care about immersion. But how does having a game-y unlock that allows you to have infinite dye correspond to an immersive experience? It doesn't. Yet having actual dyeing materials you infuse into armor is immersive, because that is how you (might) actually do it in real life.

If you mean a lot of people wouldn't care about it being weird game-y unlocks that only exist in your UI, I think that is possible. But if you're just outright denying it affects immersion, I'll have to seriously disagree with you there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I think it might be true that many people don't care about immersion. But how does having a game-y unlock that allows you to have infinite dye correspond to an immersive experience? It doesn't. Yet having actual dyeing materials you infuse into armor is immersive, because that is how you (might) actually do it in real life.

If you mean a lot of people wouldn't care about it being weird game-y unlocks that only exist in your UI, I think that is possible. But if you're just outright denying it affects immersion, I'll have to seriously disagree with you there.

Immersion is completely subjective, I can't deny that it might effect immersion for you, it certainly wouldn't for me.  Immersion is an overplayed term though, at the end of the day a quality game will be far more immersing than something that is as close to reality as possible (note that these two can coincide together of course).  'Quality of life' changes (as this would be) are made to make the game more enjoyable, which in turn keeps people playing the game (you have to be playing to actually be immersed in the first place) and focused on what is important, it's not as if this is Dressmaker Simulator 2016.

Edited by Killua
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Immersion is completely subjective, I can't deny that it might effect immersion for you, it certainly wouldn't for me.  Immersion is an overplayed term though, at the end of the day a quality game will be far more immersing than something that is as close to reality as possible (note that these two can coincide together of course).  'Quality of life' changes (as this would be) are made to make the game more enjoyable, which in turn keeps people enjoying the game itself and focused on what is important, it's not as if this is Dressmaker Simulator 2016.

Whether an individual is immersed or not is subjective but the extent to which a particular character, piece of art, or game mechanic is immersive is absolutely objective. It is objectively anti-immersive to have some MS paint Sanic character plastered on the wall in a cathedral in game. It might not break some particular person's immersion, because their individual experience is subjective, however it is undeniable that that image does not fit within the game world and contributes negatively towards immersion. Just because it doesn't break your immersion threshhold doesn't mean it isn't a detriment to immersion.

I'd also like to say it's not about being close to 'reality' it's about being close to the 'reality' or 'reason' of the game (also known as 'consistancy'). The world of the game should be consistant and make sense, and what makes sense is getting physical dyes and applying them to your armor. Disappearing into a menu with game-ified unlocks and reappearing in the world with magically transformed armor is objectively less immersive than physically dying your armor. It might not break your immersion, but that is because the detriment to immersion from having a very gamey dye system doesn't reach your personal, subjective, threshold for losing immersion. This is what I meant when I said 'don't care about immersion'. It was the wrong phrase to use. The correct phrase is simply 'has a higher tolerance for immersion damage'. There might be a lot of people to who find that level of immersion damage inconsequential. But what is objective is that, in the context of the BDO world, having an infinite color supply that magically applies itself to your armor after a few menu clicks is significantly less immersive than using up (what in the game world are) physical and finite dyes to apply them to your armor.

Edited by Gelsamel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

 

Play the game before you talk about immersion. You can't have the slightest clue what would bend or break it until you're actually immersed into it. And I much rather have something that players would find WORTH spending their money on over it being a cash drain for the sake of "immersion".

And any other debates should be taken to PM. I don't need this getting closed for silly reasons.

Thanks for understanding!

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

What is the point of posting if you're not willing to discuss it publically where everyone can benefit from it? The developers are interested in our ideas and so are many active and potential players. Instantly deflecting disagreeing debate because it doesn't match your ideas is very counter productive.

The very simple fact is that the cash drain problem that you take issue with is completely seperate to the unlocked dyes issue, as I've already stated (and I'm sure you've read). There are many fixes to the issue of it being a cash drain that do not affect (or even increase) how immersive the dyeing mechanics are. Is there a particular reason you'd rather have unlocks than any of the numerous fixes to the cash drain issue that don't rely on permenant unlocks?

I'd like to hear your point of view on why unlocks should be preferred to immersive fixes to the gambling/cash drain issue.

Edited by Gelsamel
typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

What is the point of posting if you're not willing to discuss it publically where everyone can benefit from it? The developers are interested in our ideas and so are many active and potential players. Instantly deflecting disagreeing debate because it doesn't match your ideas is very counter productive.

The very simple fact is that the cash drain problem that you take issue wirth is completely seperate to the unlocked dyes issue, as I've already stated (and I'm sure you've read). There are many fixes to the issue of it being a cash drain that do not affect (or even increase) how immersive the dyeing mechanics are. Is there a particular reason you'd rather have unlocks than any of the numerous fixes to the cash drain issue that don't rely on permenant unlocks?

I'd like to hear your point of view on why unlocks should be preferred to immersive fixes to the gambling/cash drain issue.

There is 12 different shades for 11 different hues with 7 different specular effects for each shade/hue (not including basic dyes). You do the math, there is an insane amount of dyes. Do you know how absurd it would be to learn all the different crafting recipes? And if they where craft-able, why would anyone pay real money for dyes? No one would, because people would rather get the dye they want right off the bat then deal with RNG.

You disclaim my post as "irrelevant" when you have no idea what you are talking about. You're making assumptions based on what you think the dye system is like. You say that gambling and RNG has absolutely nothing to do with what you are talking about when it does, because you are talking about the acquisition of dyes, which is RNG (a.k.a gambling).

Before yelling about "immersion" and trying to change the game, play the game first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

There is 12 different shades for 11 different hues with 7 different specular effects for each shade/hue (not including basic dyes). You do the math, there is an insane amount of dyes. Do you know how absurd it would be to learn all the different crafting recipes? And if they where craft-able, why would anyone pay real money for dyes? No one would, because people would rather get the dye they want right off the bat then deal with RNG.

You disclaim my post as "irrelevant" when you have no idea what you are talking about. You're making assumptions based on what you think the dye system is like. You say that gambling and RNG has absolutely nothing to do with what you are talking about when it does, because you are talking about the acquisition of dyes, which is RNG (a.k.a gambling).

Before yelling about "immersion" and trying to change the game, play the game first.

You've imagined a very specific implementation of this mechanic that is needlessly more complex than it needs be. This is a straight up strawman. If you wanted every single dye to be available outside the cash shop (no reason this needs to be the case) then you would simply need 12 items for shades, 11 items for hues, and 7 items for specular effects, 30 items total. Then simply implement an ingredient mixing system and voila, you're done. If you really want to have recipes, then you either have all 961 recipes, which wouldn't be too bad, since there are only 30 ingredients. Or you could implement it such that you simply require knowledge of each of the 12+11+7 = 30 base ingredients before you can mix and match them in an ingredient mixing interface.

There are hundreds of reasons you might want to buy the real money version. Rarity of ingredients, rarity of recipe (assuming they even bother with a recipe system), simple amount of hours put in to make a batch of dye, or to attain the skill level to use that special specular effect. Or perhaps because they have premium dyes or specular effects that are only obtainable in the cash shop, or you are just impatient and want to look amazing right now. There are many f2p games that still make a lot of money on costumes/dyes/etc. that are obtainable in game because people want them now, or without effort, or they want a lot of them. No one is saying Daum shouldn't make money off dyes.

There is a billion different combinations of mechanics here that could very easily solve the cash drain problem and not be something so naive and ineffectual as simply making everything unlockable, as if that would fix the problem (note that, simply making them unlockable with no other changes means you still have to buy 461 dyes on average before you get the specific dye you want, assuming you want one specific dye, and assuming you cannot unlock a dye you've already unlocked).

There is also no reason the cash shop dyes have to be randomized. You could simply choose your shade, hue and specularity and be done with it. Why would you ever need to have a list of 961 entries? No one designs combinatorial things that way. Hell even a list would work if you sorted them by hue since there'd only be 84 dyes in a single color's tab, and they could be sorted by shade, then specular effect. The cash shop could even have different costs for different shades or specular effect, either because they were harder to make or to restrict the prevalence of those dyes in game. They have a lot of leeway with how they do things here. Attacking one specific implementation that you've imagined up will not really do the discussion any help.

In future replies, I'd appreciate it if you'd avoid the use of ad hominem as well.

Edited by Gelsamel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

*snip*

 

Dyes are cash shop and that probably wont change unless dyes somehow become p2w. If dyes where craft-able in game, it would most likely be limited to the basic dyes, with everything else being considered "premium".

"There is also no reason the cash shop dyes have to be randomized. You could simply choose your shade, hue and specularity and be done with it."

This. You would think this is what they would go with in the first place...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

This. You would think this is what they would go with in the first place...

Horrid holdover from KR, I suspect. It isn't uncommon in KR MMOs. It's gacha hell all over again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

What is the point of posting if you're not willing to discuss it publically where everyone can benefit from it? The developers are interested in our ideas and so are many active and potential players. Instantly deflecting disagreeing debate because it doesn't match your ideas is very counter productive.

The very simple fact is that the cash drain problem that you take issue with is completely seperate to the unlocked dyes issue, as I've already stated (and I'm sure you've read). There are many fixes to the issue of it being a cash drain that do not affect (or even increase) how immersive the dyeing mechanics are. Is there a particular reason you'd rather have unlocks than any of the numerous fixes to the cash drain issue that don't rely on permenant unlocks?

I'd like to hear your point of view on why unlocks should be preferred to immersive fixes to the gambling/cash drain issue.

 I asked this to those who played CBT1. Meaning they have SOME experience with the game and some experience with how the current dye system is.

But just to help you out let me inform you on how dye works. :) The system atm is RNG. Meaning the odds of you getting anything you actually want is slim. You obtain the dyes and add them to a dye palette. Opening the dye option you go into another screen and can apply any dye you own. You can also test ANY dye you don't own in that screen as well. The odds of obtaining 2 of the same dye is very low because there are 100s upon 100s of dye shades. You can there after use 2 dyes and mix them for another random outcome if you got something you don't like. But again. Slim chances you will get anything you will use.

It's fair to keep the RNG so that the company makes money. But what's not fair to the player is how much money they'd need to invest to actually obtain the color they want. And even if they did get it; they only got 1. Meaning 1 thing can be this color and nothing else. A lot of costumes have LOT of dye slots. And by a lot I mean more than 10 dye slots. WIth the RNG as it is right now on dyes; not having them perm would take literally forever unless they were sellable on the AH. Which I definitely don't want to see.

Now; if you were trying to argue that NEON colors were ruining immersion I would accept that. If you were arguing that car mounts would ruin immersion I would accept that. But having dyes as unlocks when you actually carry around this dye palette anywhere you go regardless? No.


 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

+1 to Permanent Unlocks, otherwise NOT worth it at all. No one is insane enough to spend hundreds of dollars to dye every single part of their costume with the color they want. Maybe even thousands of dollars if bad luck with RNG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Or, I'd rather have the "shopping cart" dye system as it was suggested. Meaning, I go into the dye system and pick what colors I want on the gear and have to pay a certain amount based on the color I choose and how many dyes I'll be using.

THIS IS AMAZING and should be implemented. +1

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

comming from Guild Wars 2. The way dye is unlocked and gathered just feels like a waste of money and effort if you ask me. I really feel put off from investing ANY money in dyes if they are randomised and not permanent unlocks. It feels cheap and money grabby.

Or if you do keep the current system, there should at least be basic dyes available from an NPC for purchase. Rather than having to spend real cash on dyes that are not permenent.

That is my thoughts on it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Permanent unlocks

I actually created my account for these forums just so i could help get this recognized. With the system as armor restrictive as it is, dye is all we have to make our character feel different. Its just wrong that i can't get a good look that i enjoy because i have to own 8 of the same dye and can't manage because they are randomized. BUT, if they where permanent, then I could make this happen when i finally got a color i wanted. I believe from my position as a customer I would spend much more on dye when I didn't feel like i was throwing my money away every time i made a purchase (I haven't made a purchase and will not make a purchase due to this) If the dye's where permanent It would just feel more comfortable.

 

Dear Daum,

making money is fine, RNG is fine. I'm all down for supporting this awesome game... but please include a little give with the take or it leaves a bitter taste for the players which could negatively affect the growth of the game.

P.S.

I also feel like 30$ for a full costume is over the top, but if it wasn't bound to one character it would be just right.

Edited by RyuSaikou

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I would like the dye system to change, but my ideas are the same as many others. Either make dyes permanent unlocks, or remove the RNG (either in the pearl shop or the dye mixing window).

Edited by Friedslick6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites