• Announcements

    • IMPORTANT - REACH US IN THE NEW FORUM   05/04/2017

      Ladies and gentlemen ATTENTION please:
      It's time to move into a new house!
        As previously announced, from now on IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO CREATE THREADS OR REPLY in the old forums. From now on the old forums will be readable only. If you need to move/copy/migrate any post/material from here, feel free to contact the staff in the new home. We’ll be waiting for you in the NEW Forums!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php

      *New features and amazing tools are waiting for you, even more is yet to come in the future.. just like world exploration in BDO leads to new possibilities.
      So don't be afraid about changes, click the link above and follow us!
      Enjoy and see you on the other side!  
    • WICHTIG: Das Forum ist umgezogen!   05/04/2017

      Damen und Herren, wir bitten um Eure Aufmerksamkeit, es ist an der Zeit umzuziehen!
        Wie wir bereits angekündigt hatten, ist es ab sofort nicht mehr möglich, neue Diskussionen in diesem Forum zu starten. Um Euch Zeit zu geben, laufende Diskussionen abzuschließen, könnt Ihr noch für zwei Wochen in offenen Diskussionen antworten. Danach geht dieses Forum hier in den Ruhestand und das NEUE FORUM übernimmt vollständig.
      Das Forum hier bleibt allerdings erhalten und lesbar.   Neue und verbesserte Funktionen warten auf Euch im neuen Forum und wir arbeiten bereits an weiteren Erweiterungen.
      Wir sehen uns auf der anderen Seite!

      https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php Update:
      Wie angekündigt könen ab sofort in diesem Forum auch keine neuen Beiträge mehr veröffentlicht werden.
    • IMPORTANT: Le nouveau forum   05/04/2017

      Aventurières, aventuriers, votre attention s'il vous plaît, il est grand temps de déménager!
      Comme nous vous l'avons déjà annoncé précédemment, il n'est désormais plus possible de créer de nouveau sujet ni de répondre aux anciens sur ce bon vieux forum.
      Venez visiter le nouveau forum!
      https://community.blackdesertonline.com
      De nouvelles fonctionnalités ainsi que de nouveaux outils vous attendent dès à présent et d'autres arriveront prochainement! N'ayez pas peur du changement et rejoignez-nous! Amusez-vous bien et a bientôt dans notre nouveau chez nous

Feedback - EXP Penalty Removal from PvP

5,205 posts in this topic

Posted

Do th3e devs play this game? I am guessing not or they would understand hopw stupid this patch is

 

Because I feel like they don't at all. If you are going to remove the penalties for being a troll then you need to remove karma penalties too. How can one company be this dumb?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Real pvp'ers were and will always be against a change to remove any sort of penalty on death. People who dont want to engage on pvp except out of some WoW style arena duel will be for this change.

Hardcore vs Softcore pretty simple to understand. 

Taking a Hardcore game and going completely softcore is dumb and this patch should be reversed until another penalty could be implemented. 

When the Common strategy for pvp is to let someone kill you a bunch of times before you fight back; game is broken.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Real pvp'ers were and will always be against a change to remove any sort of penalty on death.

Real pvp'ers care about the fight itself, the talent, the skills, the tactic, the pvp mind game,  loose or win the fight

If for you something else matter, you are obviously not a real pvper.

 

 

 

People who dont want to engage on pvp except out of some WoW style arena duel will be for this change.

Its a setting, to not have all thoses wannabe "pker" force other to be penalised for not wanting to pvp.

its an open world ""sandboxy" mean you have choice to live your game like you want to.

 

Hardcore vs Softcore pretty simple to understand. 

hardcore mean nothing. there is nothing "hardcore" in a pve-grind-to-pvp-win.

Edited by woots

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Real pvp'ers care about the fight itself, the talent, the skills, the tactic, the pvp mind game,  loose or win the fight

If for you something else matter, you are obviously not a real pvper.

 

 

Its a setting, to not have all thoses wannabe "pker" force other to be penalised for not wanting to pvp.

its an open world ""sandboxy" mean you have choice to live your game like you want to.

 

hardcore mean nothing. there is nothing "hardcore" in a pve-grind-to-pvp-win.

COMPLETELY WRONG!

You willingly bought the game KNOWING that it was FFA OPEN WORLD PVP. It says it in the guides, the trailers everywhere. You can be attacked and killed almost anywhere (except in cities).

Why would you buy such a game and "not wanting to pvp"

You knowingly and willingly bought a game that permanently puts you in a pvp environment.

by pressing LOG IN, you effectively forfeit your right to say "i don't want to pvp"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Will the REAL PvPer please step forward!?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

COMPLETELY WRONG!

You willingly bought the game KNOWING that it was FFA OPEN WORLD PVP. It says it in the guides, the trailers everywhere. You can be attacked and killed almost anywhere (except in cities).

Why would you buy such a game and "not wanting to pvp"

You knowingly and willingly bought a game that permanently puts you in a pvp environment.

by pressing LOG IN, you effectively forfeit your right to say "i don't want to pvp"

That is nonsense. In other regions you can avoid pvping by not doing a quest. For some stupid reason that was not left in this version of the game but you can still avoid pvp by not leveling past 45. So no one forfeited their right to say they do not want to pvp.

Also... All of you complaining about how they changed the game to a way it was not meant to be ( when in fact this change actually exists in korea ) didn't seem to mind when they changed it to remove the pvp lock quest because it gave you more unwilling victims. Now that your unwilling victims don't have to suffer you are throwing a fit. This is a good change for the longevity of the game and I hope it stays.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The reality of this change is that it allows for people to grief much more easily than before.

Let's make clear the concept of griefing in a sandbox owpvp game before getting into too much detail:

- Killing someone trying to take the place where you have been grinding is not griefing.

- Kiliing someone to gain a lucrative grind spot is not griefing.

- Repeatedly hunting someone and causing them xp loss is griefing.

- Killing afk fishers, trainers, traders, etc, is griefing.

This is is sandbox mmo, and there are no instances to grind in, so everyone should be prepared to fight for their spots, especially the lucrative ones. The problem comes with the ability to ruin someone's gameplay with no recourse for the person being griefed.

The main arguments seem to be around claiming grindspots. Let's make something very clear: IT IS FAR EASIER TO RUIN SOMEONES GRIND ROTATION THAN IT IS TO OUTGRIND SOMEONE

As a few people have mentioned, one salty person can ruin the experience for 5 people simply by running ahead of their rotation. They kill a few mobs, and pull the rest away until they reset, forcing the grind group to either wait for them to reset, or skip the pack. In both scenarios they face the same thing at the next pack of mobs. Yes, this could be done before by someone with no experience to lose, but that at least limited the vast majority of people from employing this tactic. 

There are other equally as effective ways to grief people with this system, and it can be just as frustrating as the one mentioned above.

As a player at 57, knowing just how much time it takes to gain that 1% experience, I understand full well how much 1 person can set you back.

The problem with this patch is that it provides no recourse for those that are being griefed, and no penalty to those doing the griefing.

Initially I was opposed to the change, as forcing someone to lose xp when they were messing with you was a very effective deterrent. However, it can be a bit harsh, particularly when someone decides to flag on you for no reason at all, or you get ganked on a grind spot with no warning. 

There is a middle-ground that could, and in my opinion, needs to be achieved. Sadly there are people who are willing to spend their entire evening to ruin that of multiple others, and those people need some kind of recourse or deterrent against it. I don't think the answer is a karma penalty on death as has been proposed, as this could be easily abused (and 'Karma' would have been be reworked). And anyone who has gone negative karma and been hunted knows that easy it is to lose enchantment levels and how fast it can add up trying to defend yourself (yes, I know, oh that poor pk'er, woe is he - sometimes people deserve it).

I think at this point the discussion should shift to what penalty on death would be adequate enough to discourage griefing, but not so harsh on those who get randomly ganked. It seems the best way would be a stacking debuff upon death. The penalty for repeatedly killing someone and going negative karma is pretty harsh already (karma bombing is a completely different topic, although made way easier by the new system as well).

So rather than sit here and flame each other for literally hundreds of posts, why don't we shift the discussion to how it can be properly balanced, to prevent or discourage griefing, and reward competitive gameplay without substantially hindering the casual player (or the hardcore, losing 1% above 56 or 57 is a huge blow, even to them).

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I do not mind protecting the players doing life skills leveling lower levels and such that is just being an ass but when it comes to a bunch of 55s-57s fighting over zones there needs to be some punishment on each side. There are bad people on both side of the scales pvp and pve.

Like I suggested both sides losing karma would be a decent way cause neither side could grief each other to such a huge extent. Of course you will NEVER completely wipe out grieving sadly. But I feel this would be a great step to wiping out a lot of it. I love pvp but most of the pvp I have done 98% of it has been threw wars. What I am more worried about is open world pvp losing a meaning. I am not saying the old system was good it wasn't. Guess I was being wishful thinking they would make something fresh for our servers with tweaks. The old system was too easy to abuse lower players/fishing training with the 1%. They should have made it so like the more level difference you lose less or none. Or you only lose 1% after 3-5 deaths. We need something to keep the open world element alive. I do not blame either side this is purely Daums fault for not taking care of something SO important before hand. Whether or not one side has the majority or not some are happy and some are not.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

That is nonsense. In other regions you can avoid pvping by not doing a quest. For some stupid reason that was not left in this version of the game but you can still avoid pvp by not leveling past 45. So no one forfeited their right to say they do not want to pvp.

Also... All of you complaining about how they changed the game to a way it was not meant to be ( when in fact this change actually exists in korea ) didn't seem to mind when they changed it to remove the pvp lock quest because it gave you more unwilling victims. Now that your unwilling victims don't have to suffer you are throwing a fit. This is a good change for the longevity of the game and I hope it stays.

that's called new player protection. where they allow you to reach a certain point in the game where they feel you know enough how to hold your own. but in the end to access the end game content you will need to go past 50 and do that KR quest. 

You can avoid leveling past 45 but paradoxically everything you do in this game gives you XP. so you have to artificially AKA SUICIDE multiple times to keep under 44.99 level. 

nonsense is joining a pvp game and expect not to pvp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The reality of this change is that it allows for people to grief much more easily than before.

Let's make clear the concept of griefing in a sandbox owpvp game before getting into too much detail:

- Killing someone trying to take the place where you have been grinding is not griefing.

- Kiliing someone to gain a lucrative grind spot is not griefing.

- Repeatedly hunting someone and causing them xp loss is griefing.

- Killing afk fishers, trainers, traders, etc, is griefing.

This is is sandbox mmo, and there are no instances to grind in, so everyone should be prepared to fight for their spots, especially the lucrative ones. The problem comes with the ability to ruin someone's gameplay with no recourse for the person being griefed.

The main arguments seem to be around claiming grindspots. Let's make something very clear: IT IS FAR EASIER TO RUIN SOMEONES GRIND ROTATION THAN IT IS TO OUTGRIND SOMEONE

As a few people have mentioned, one salty person can ruin the experience for 5 people simply by running ahead of their rotation. They kill a few mobs, and pull the rest away until they reset, forcing the grind group to either wait for them to reset, or skip the pack. In both scenarios they face the same thing at the next pack of mobs. Yes, this could be done before by someone with no experience to lose, but that at least limited the vast majority of people from employing this tactic. 

There are other equally as effective ways to grief people with this system, and it can be just as frustrating as the one mentioned above.

As a player at 57, knowing just how much time it takes to gain that 1% experience, I understand full well how much 1 person can set you back.

The problem with this patch is that it provides no recourse for those that are being griefed, and no penalty to those doing the griefing.

Initially I was opposed to the change, as forcing someone to lose xp when they were messing with you was a very effective deterrent. However, it can be a bit harsh, particularly when someone decides to flag on you for no reason at all, or you get ganked on a grind spot with no warning. 

There is a middle-ground that could, and in my opinion, needs to be achieved. Sadly there are people who are willing to spend their entire evening to ruin that of multiple others, and those people need some kind of recourse or deterrent against it. I don't think the answer is a karma penalty on death as has been proposed, as this could be easily abused (and 'Karma' would have been be reworked). And anyone who has gone negative karma and been hunted knows that easy it is to lose enchantment levels and how fast it can add up trying to defend yourself (yes, I know, oh that poor pk'er, woe is he - sometimes people deserve it).

I think at this point the discussion should shift to what penalty on death would be adequate enough to discourage griefing, but not so harsh on those who get randomly ganked. It seems the best way would be a stacking debuff upon death. The penalty for repeatedly killing someone and going negative karma is pretty harsh already (karma bombing is a completely different topic, although made way easier by the new system as well).

So rather than sit here and flame each other for literally hundreds of posts, why don't we shift the discussion to how it can be properly balanced, to prevent or discourage griefing, and reward competitive gameplay without substantially hindering the casual player (or the hardcore, losing 1% above 56 or 57 is a huge blow, even to them).

Karma! I say we lose karma! I mean if the person that died lost even 10k more karma a death it would mean life skillers and people that got randomly jumped would no longer lose Exp right? People would still and more efficiently be able to grind. Anyone who went deep on killing/dying would have to farm their karma back or some of it. The amount you lose or gain from farming might need some adjusting but I think it could be a beneficial system if worked with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Just wanted to reiterate that not alot has changed ingame for me since the patch. Only difference is I get to PvP alittle more now because players fight back and I often have to consider whether going red is worth the reward or move on. Haven't really hit this new wave of griefers others are talking about  and I spend alot of my time at AM and Sausans so can't really comment on that aspect. 

@ Daum 

I would be very careful about how this is dealt with, reverting it now imo would be a disaster as everyone other than those in denial know that the higher % of players are the 'carebear' element, alienate them now by giving into the noisy minority is not a precedence that should be set for any game.  I love the PvX that is BDO like most and that hasn't changed with the latest patch. If a rework is implemented then like most I would deal with it but a total reversion is not the way to go and there have been multiple solutions offered by players and Daum themselves that offer feasible alternatives. Shared Karma loss, town respawn, Karma V2 and the list goes on. 

I'm done with this topic, whatever happens I will adapt as long as I continue to enjoy the game or I will leave if the enjoyment is no longer there but as for now, I'm back to playing this lovely game :)

 

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Karma! I say we lose karma! I mean if the person that died lost even 10k more karma a death it would mean life skillers and people that got randomly jumped would no longer lose Exp right? People would still and more efficiently be able to grind. Anyone who went deep on killing/dying would have to farm their karma back or some of it. The amount you lose or gain from farming might need some adjusting but I think it could be a beneficial system if worked with.

It could be too easly abused. I.E. Someone catches you farming ogres and kills you, you change channels and it happens again, then I find you with no karma, force you negative, and you start losing enchantments when I node camp you.

Right track, but need something aside from karma.

Edited by Ekwah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I think this change was a much needed one and I will be extremely peeved if the change is reverted. I also don't get why people are trying to make it into a PvP vs PvE thing because PK'ng to me is the lowest form of denominator when it comes to PvP and im very doubtful this change is a PvP concern.

From reading the posts it seems to be more of a PvE concern with people locking down spots or harassing people at spots. What I really don't get is why aren't people declaring war on those annoying them and thus avoiding karma penalties? Or are we to believe that at end level in a game touted for GvG and upcoming node wars which in part require a guild that everyone is suddenly running around guildless. 

Also why is it ok to tell people before to change channels to avoid idiots yet now it's a cardinal sin? Or are we to believe in a game that is apparently dying all channels are full and apparently full of guildless griefers. 

As I had mentioned before if it's a choice of having people's progression slowed down to people losing progression then I will always select the slowing down option. That in short is what this change has done because previously at higher levels the 1% xp loss was as good as a couple of hours wasted just because someone killed you for the lol'z. At least this way you are still progressing albeit at a slower rate than you had before but still progressing none the less, just because you now need to share a (not your) spot (god forbid in an mmo) it is suddenly the end of the world. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

It could be too easly abused. I.E. Someone catches you farming ogres and kills you, you change channels and it happens again, then I find you with no karma, force you negative, and you start losing enchantments when I node camp you.

Right track, but need something aside from karma.

What if say they removed the enchant loss? You would still lose the exp. Plus they would need to know when it is best to move back to town as well. They could just increase the exp loss rate the lower you go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Will the REAL PvPer please step forward!?

 

They wont, they are enjoying the gane, doing the same things they use to since this change is quite negligible for a REAL PvPer

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

What if say they removed the enchant loss? You would still lose the exp. Plus they would need to know when it is best to move back to town as well. They could just increase the exp loss rate the lower you go.

You lose 2% currently when you die negative. Cutting the enchant loss would encourage people with 0% to stay negative and constantly kill whoever they please with no fear of dying. You also don't lose karma when you kill someone who's negative, and when you're negative you lose karma defending yourself. In the above scenario I'd node camp you down to 0% and extremely negative karma with absolutely no consequence to me.

Edited by Ekwah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

You lose 2% currently when you die negative. Cutting the enchant loss would encourage people with 0% to stay negative and constantly kill whoever they please with no fear of dying. You also don't lose karma when you kill some who's negative, and when you're negative you lose karma defending yourself. In the above scenario I'd node camp you down to 0% and extremely negative karma with absolutely no consequence to me.

True.......but if they what if they spawned in town. Surely this person would not keep going to node. Actually always thought node camping was an issue from the start. Well maybe if you are killed with in a certain range of the node you are not penalized. Of course it would need to be changed to if the person hits you first (after a respawn) you do not lose karma. Def needs some work but still think this idea could work. 

But challenging the idea is the only way to fix any issues!

I know no karma would be mayhem. So the one issue with the karma solution would be node camping that is bad. Like you said exp loss cannot be the only thing they lose at neg karma cause they could abuse it at 0%. Gems also could be abused if you take them out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

that's called new player protection. where they allow you to reach a certain point in the game where they feel you know enough how to hold your own. but in the end to access the end game content you will need to go past 50 and do that KR quest. 

You can avoid leveling past 45 but paradoxically everything you do in this game gives you XP. so you have to artificially AKA SUICIDE multiple times to keep under 44.99 level. 

nonsense is joining a pvp game and expect not to pvp.

You erroneously assume everyone cares about end game. I have seen plenty of posts from people who would be perfectly happy to be allowed to lock themselves at level 45 and play the lifeskills, fishing, horse breeding game. People play games for different reasons. I know thats hard for some of you to understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

.....What if you could lose weapon or armor durability instead???

It could be too easly abused. I.E. Someone catches you farming ogres and kills you, you change channels and it happens again, then I find you with no karma, force you negative, and you start losing enchantments when I node camp you.

Right track, but need something aside from karma.

What about losing armor or weapon durability! Especially higher geared people would be worried since if you say instead of losing an enchant lost 5-10 maybe 5 on weapon 10 on armor? or maybe like green rarity and below lose 10 durability blue rare and up lose 5? It would not be as devastating as an enchant but still will hurt. Even someone with a lot of money could only abuse that so much. It would not be worth it. Not to such an extreme that he is willing to lose tons especially on boss armors and such.

Problem might also be that we lose karma too fast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

True.......but if they what if they spawned in town. Surely this person would not keep going to node. Actually always thought node camping was an issue from the start. Well maybe if you are killed with in a certain range of the node you are not penalized. Of course it would need to be changed to if the person hits you first (after a respawn) you do not lose karma. Def needs some work but still think this idea could work. 

But challenging the idea is the only way to fix any issues!

I know no karma would be mayhem. So the one issue with the karma solution would be node camping that is bad. Like you said exp loss cannot be the only thing they lose at neg karma cause they could abuse it at 0%. Gems also could be abused if you take them out. 

I agree completely. Let's hope Pearl Abyss are doing the same.

Spawning in town still poses a whole host of problems for someone negative. Think you should maybe step away from karma and think of something else to impose on people on the dying end of the pk system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I agree completely. Let's hope Pearl Abyss are doing the same.

Spawning in town still poses a whole host of problems for someone negative. Think you should maybe step away from karma and think of something else to impose on people on the dying end of the pk system.

OMG I TOTALLY FORGOT X.X hahaha

The town that would be huge issue for sure.

What if like "pk" mode they had like a karma mode know it sounds a bit weird but for instance. Guy goes in this "Karma Mode" he is no longer able pk in any case nor be PKed by others but if he is killed by any mob/boss he could still be penalized by being negative karma? This would allow that person to safely get from a town or node to get to an area safe to farm karma back. Not only that but he would no longer be help to his guild when at war or sieges and would not be foolish enough to attempt world bosses as he could still be penalized!!!

Pretty much the negative would be him having to find a spot to safely get karma back. Now he would be safe from harassment but also have the I guess I could say consequence of having to farm his karma back.

And I was thinking of anyway this could be abused maybe by the not being able to PK but I doubt it since if they tried to grind like this people could try to grief them till they died by a mob and they would not want to risk the penalty.

Edited by Amaterasu,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

COMPLETELY WRONG!

You willingly bought the game KNOWING that it was FFA OPEN WORLD PVP. It says it in the guides, the trailers everywhere. You can be attacked and killed almost anywhere (except in cities).

Why would you buy such a game and "not wanting to pvp"

You knowingly and willingly bought a game that permanently puts you in a pvp environment.

by pressing LOG IN, you effectively forfeit your right to say "i don't want to pvp"

Is that game is called DayZ ? nop.

As someone else already said, other version have a quest to opt out pvp.

A someone else already stated, he wasnt beeing randomly attack anymore like pre-patch = meaning all thoses wannabe pvper only wanted to grief because xp loss

 

So far i know, you still can perfectly pvp exactly when and how you want ? if you dont """"""pvp"""""" anymore because no more xp loss, you are obviously anything except a real pvper, and you are only frustrated because you dont make other loose xp.

 

also, that game is 90% pve, so not willing to "pvp" for X Y or Z reasons isnt that surprising, i'am pretty sur that game only have a minority of thoses kiddo-angry """""pvper"""

(  not saying that as i already stated quite many time, the pvp here is only a parody because you pve grind to pvp win + rng stat + rng cc & immu ) 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I feel like all the trolls have been banned, we've actually had 2 pages of constructive arguement , round of applause people 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

also, that game is 90% pve, so not willing to "pvp" for X Y or Z reasons isnt that surprising, i'am pretty sur that game only have a minority of thoses kiddo-angry """""pvper"""

(  not saying that as i already stated quite many time, the pvp here is only a parody because you pve grind to pvp win + rng stat + rng cc & immu ) 

Your statement is wrong, 90% of BDO is not PvE.

It is more like 99.7%

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Just wanted to reiterate that not alot has changed ingame for me since the patch. Only difference is I get to PvP alittle more now because players fight back and I often have to consider whether going red is worth the reward or move on. Haven't really hit this new wave of griefers others are talking about  and I spend alot of my time at AM and Sausans so can't really comment on that aspect. 

@ Daum 

I would be very careful about how this is dealt with, reverting it now imo would be a disaster as everyone other than those in denial know that the higher % of players are the 'carebear' element, alienate them now by giving into the noisy minority is not a precedence that should be set for any game.  I love the PvX that is BDO like most and that hasn't changed with the latest patch. If a rework is implemented then like most I would deal with it but a total reversion is not the way to go and there have been multiple solutions offered by players and Daum themselves that offer feasible alternatives. Shared Karma loss, town respawn, Karma V2 and the list goes on. 

I'm done with this topic, whatever happens I will adapt as long as I continue to enjoy the game or I will leave if the enjoyment is no longer there but as for now, I'm back to playing this lovely game :)

 

 

Serious question here.  When is going red ever "worth the reward" now?  What is the reward?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites